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Jamescray100
09-17-2012, 08:20 PM
Hello all,

New guy here with a frustrating problem, but betting you can help.
I have a like-new 1997 Prostar 190 w 275hp indmar and TBI for carburation.
Out skiing recently and after about 1 hr, all of a sudden loses power, won't idle. Limped toward home with it kicking and sputtering, ultimately quit and wouldn't re-start. Could see at the TBI that no fuel was spraying.
First try was to replace both fuel filters as they had never been replaced (yes, I'm ashamed). Replaced both fuel filters (at carb and at fuel tank) and it cranked and ran like new......for about an hour. Then, same problem.
So, thought maybe bad guess or gunk in tank might have re-clogged the fuel filter. Took off the one at the gas tank and cut it in half. Clean as a whistle.
It seems to be fuel related and my next guess is fuel pump, but I didn't know fuel pumps would die intermittently and it really confuses me that replacing the fuel filters made it run so well, albiet just for an hour.

So, any insight would sure be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

mikeg205
09-17-2012, 08:34 PM
TBI? - oil pressure ok? ECT sensor could have failed...did you notice the engine temp on the guage? when it started to sputter and kick.

Is your impeller in good shape? If you let the engine completely cool down...does run well again?

Just rulin' out the easy stuff...JimN and others will have some good ideas...

Jamescray100
09-17-2012, 08:40 PM
Sorry...TBI is throttle body injection. Oil pressure and temp were all fine. Didn't change after cooling down.
Great questions though and thanks for the help. Keep 'er comin!

mikeg205
09-17-2012, 08:55 PM
Sorry...TBI is throttle body injection. Oil pressure and temp were all fine. Didn't change after cooling down.
Great questions though and thanks for the help. Keep 'er comin!

also you may want to check your exhaust tube that come off your risers...they could be collapsing on the inside...

cloaked here has a picture...looking for it now.

mikeg205
09-17-2012, 08:56 PM
http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showpost.php?p=707168&postcount=8

Jamescray100
09-17-2012, 09:10 PM
Interesting! I couldn't see the whole thread (sorry...newbie), so don't know what those symptoms were. Only issue with this though: i take off my spark arrester and it's very apparent that the TBI is not spraying fuel. When working correctly, i clearly see gas spraying. Not now. So I'm still thinking it has to be fuel related.
Thanks so much for your help. I will definitely give the exhaust tubes a look.

mikeg205
09-17-2012, 09:13 PM
It could also be your ECM...may want to have checked... Bad ECT maybe?(Engine Coolant Temp) would tell ECM not to send fuel to intake...had that happen when I was running a 160 T-stat - heat soak and barely any fuel would flow threw injectors. After cooling...gas flowed freely and engine started right up.

Skipper
09-17-2012, 10:08 PM
Check the inlet to the fuel pump. When it gets clogged it causes symptoms like you described. The best way to inspect the inlet is to remove the pump - expect to spill some fuel. Just a little debris in the intake screen will cause a lot of grief.

erkoehler
09-17-2012, 11:01 PM
Check your fuel pressure, I'd bet your fuel pump failed.

Jamescray100
09-17-2012, 11:16 PM
Thanks! Great advice. Two follow-ups:
1. Will a fuel pump fail intermittently like I've described, and
2. Is there a thread telling how to check the pump pressure?

mikeg205
09-18-2012, 07:19 AM
Thanks! Great advice. Two follow-ups:
1. Will a fuel pump fail intermittently like I've described, and
2. Is there a thread telling how to check the pump pressure?

Good question on checking fuel pressure..I could find the fitting on the TBI...this I would love to know as well

you can still order the pump online at NAPA..but only online..

http://napaonline.com/Catalog/Result.aspx?Ntt%3dp60962%26Ntk%3dKeyword%26Nty%3d1 %26Dn%3d0%26D%3dp60962%26Dk%3d1%26Dp%3d3%26N%3d0

Jamescray100
09-18-2012, 09:28 AM
Thanks MC Maniac. The NAPA site says the pump is for Ford's '94-96. My boat is a '99 and the engine is a Chevy 350. Is it the same pump? Sure looks the same.

mikeg205
09-18-2012, 09:35 AM
same pump

Jamescray100
09-18-2012, 09:48 AM
Great, will check the inlet to the pump tonight for debris and if nothing is apparent, order a new one from NAPA. Hopefully that'll do the trick. Will keep you posted. Thanks to everyone for the great help! This site is a great resource in a MC-information-starved world.

JimN
09-18-2012, 10:02 AM
If you turn the key to ON, you should hear a click and buzzing. The buzzing should last for three seconds and serves to prime the fuel lines before cranking. If you don't hear these, you need to find out why. It could be the relay (the engine has three of them, mounted near the ECM), a bad/loose ground wire (located with the other ground wires at the rear of the engine), dirty battery cables/loose, corroded or dirty connections at the main harness or on the solenoid where the boat harness gets its power, the power plug on the pump may be loose or it could be clogged. You have a Shrader valve on the hard fuel line and any time an engine runs this way, the pressure needs to be checked- at key ON/engine OFF, at idle, 2000 RPM and at WOT.

JDK
09-18-2012, 11:34 AM
It seems to be fuel related and my next guess is fuel pump, but I didn't know fuel pumps would die intermittently and it really confuses me that replacing the fuel filters made it run so well, albiet just for an hour.

So, any insight would sure be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

X2 about cleaning the SCREEN that's INSIDE the fuel pump INLET.

Jamescray100
09-18-2012, 12:10 PM
I do hear the pump spin up when I turn the key on. Still not sure I have the confidence to check the pressures at the schrader valve. Does a standard AC gauge work? What should the pressures be?

Will definitely check the fuel pump inlet screen tonight. Could well be the problem. Embarrassingly, the fuel filters were really bad when I replaced them, so they could have let stuff through to the screen.

Great suggestions everyone!

JimN
09-18-2012, 12:22 PM
I do hear the pump spin up when I turn the key on. Still not sure I have the confidence to check the pressures at the schrader valve. Does a standard AC gauge work? What should the pressures be?

Will definitely check the fuel pump inlet screen tonight. Could well be the problem. Embarrassingly, the fuel filters were really bad when I replaced them, so they could have let stuff through to the screen.

Great suggestions everyone!

"AC", as in Air Conditioning? No. Use a fuel pressure gauge. You can get a loaner from many parts stores. Make sure it has a clear plastic tube, so you can purge the air from the gauge. You should also use the purge valve to take a fuel sample- I use a clear soda bottle but a Gatorade bottle works great, too.

I would take the fuel sample first. If it looks bad, you may need to drain the tank before proceeding. Bad gas needs to go and there's nothing you can do to make it "good".

Jamescray100
09-18-2012, 12:37 PM
Did I scare you with the "AC" question? Now you know the depth of dumb you're dealing with on this end. :rolleyes:

mzimme
09-18-2012, 12:56 PM
Don't be intimidated by checking fuel pressure. You're not changing anything by putting a guage on the shrader valve... you're just adding a guage. It's there "spliced" in already so you don't have to do any splicing. It's literally connect the guage, then run the boat in the manner that Jim explained (off, idle, running, wot) and have someone watching that guage and report the fuel pressure. Real easy to do.

LYNRDSKYNRD
09-18-2012, 01:11 PM
Jim just to clarify does the engine need to be under a load (boat in the water and in gear at 2000 & WOT) when checking the fuel pressure?

gatorguy
09-18-2012, 01:52 PM
Not to get too far away from OP ?'s, but I have the same pump on my '97 ps205, and it has been running with no problems. I do however hear a very load whining noise coming from the pump. You can hear it when the engine is running and the cover is closed. You can also "feel" the whine if you touch the pump. It seems as if the noise has always been there, 3rd season since I've owned it, but I'd swear it has gotten loader this year, or I'm just more aware of it. The boat will still do 41mph, and always starts. Does anyone else notice an unusaully load pump, or is it just me. I don't want to get stranded, but I also don't want to spend $154 at NAPA or $325 at skidim if I don't have to.

JimN
09-18-2012, 03:33 PM
Jim just to clarify does the engine need to be under a load (boat in the water and in gear at 2000 & WOT) when checking the fuel pressure?

Absolutely! Doing this on the trailer does no good, at all. If Mark from MC or Gearhead from Indmar were to see this, they would say "He finally learned it!" because it took a while for this to sink in.

JimN
09-18-2012, 03:34 PM
Did I scare you with the "AC" question? Now you know the depth of dumb you're dealing with on this end. :rolleyes:

I wouldn't say "dumb"- inexperienced, maybe. It could have meant "All Clear".

FrankSchwab
09-18-2012, 04:21 PM
I'd hook up the fuel gauge, and go run the boat on the lake until the problem occurs. Write down the fuel pressures at key on, idle, 2000, and WOT as JimN suggested when you get started, then check them again when the problem occurs. I'm guessing you'll find that the WOT pressures are lower than they need to be when you get started, then get worse when the boat starts "kicking and sputtering".

At that point, it's either the screen on the pickup in the tank, or the fuel pump.

/frank

Razzys Wagon
09-18-2012, 04:30 PM
Thanks! Great advice. Two follow-ups:
1. Will a fuel pump fail intermittently like I've described, and
2. Is there a thread telling how to check the pump pressure?

1- now im not a marine expert,but looking at the pumps they look to be the same manufactuer as the automotive,walbro-etc., and in the automotive side they will do exactly as you describe, most likely it has been over worked by not keeping the filters changed, this increases the pressure the pump has to operate at and therefore wears the internals quicker. when cool it holds pressure fine but then as it heats up from being worn/out of balance it will loose pressure and then stop all together....

2- *edit* read it now...lol didnt see how many pages it was...

but i am new to boats as well but i know the automotive side of f. injection very well. :cool:

mikeg205
09-18-2012, 10:18 PM
Where the heck would I find a schrader valve on a 95 TBI - been looking can't find so far...hmmm maybe need a brighter light or stronger glasses... :D

JimN
09-19-2012, 08:07 AM
Where the heck would I find a schrader valve on a 95 TBI - been looking can't find so far...hmmm maybe need a brighter light or stronger glasses... :D

Not all of the early EFI engines had one but it's always on the hard fuel line. If you don't have one, it's possible to build an adapter, or buy one (OTC sells one, but it's probably too long to fit easily.

mikeg205
09-19-2012, 08:08 AM
Not all of the early EFI engines had one but it's always on the hard fuel line. If you don't have one, it's possible to build an adapter, or buy one (OTC sells one, but it's probably too long to fit easily.

Great thanks...

JimN
09-19-2012, 08:22 AM
1- now im not a marine expert,but looking at the pumps they look to be the same manufactuer as the automotive,walbro-etc., and in the automotive side they will do exactly as you describe, most likely it has been over worked by not keeping the filters changed, this increases the pressure the pump has to operate at and therefore wears the internals quicker. when cool it holds pressure fine but then as it heats up from being worn/out of balance it will loose pressure and then stop all together....

2- *edit* read it now...lol didnt see how many pages it was...

but i am new to boats as well but i know the automotive side of f. injection very well. :cool:

If the flow is restricted after the pump, I would agree but the pump on this boat is on the engine and pulls fuel from the tank, so it would run hotter from lack of fuel to cool it, not higher than normal pressure. If it has run dry, it will definitely shorten the pump's life.

Skipper
09-19-2012, 01:21 PM
Seriously, before you spend a lot of time and money to put a valve on your fuel line just remove the pump and inspect the inlet for debris. Probably save yourself a lot of "frustration".:cool:

Jamescray100
09-19-2012, 05:27 PM
Minor update: I removed the fuel pump last night. The inlet screen is shiney clean. So, I'm assuming the fuel pump is bad and have ordered a new one from NAPA. I truly appreciate all of the suggestions for measurement of the fuel pressure, but after some thought, I'm going go ahead and spend the $154 to aviod the added time/effort to install a valve, take it to the lake to test under load, and get towed back in when fuel pump heats up and fails again, etc. I'll let you know if that solves the problem. Sure hope so!
Thanks again to everyone for all the help!!

Razzys Wagon
09-19-2012, 06:35 PM
If the flow is restricted after the pump, I would agree but the pump on this boat is on the engine and pulls fuel from the tank, so it would run hotter from lack of fuel to cool it, not higher than normal pressure. If it has run dry, it will definitely shorten the pump's life.

agree with you 150% sir......:D

JimN
09-19-2012, 08:06 PM
Minor update: I removed the fuel pump last night. The inlet screen is shiney clean. So, I'm assuming the fuel pump is bad and have ordered a new one from NAPA. I truly appreciate all of the suggestions for measurement of the fuel pressure, but after some thought, I'm going go ahead and spend the $154 to aviod the added time/effort to install a valve, take it to the lake to test under load, and get towed back in when fuel pump heats up and fails again, etc. I'll let you know if that solves the problem. Sure hope so!
Thanks again to everyone for all the help!!

If the pump has a good supply of gas, it won't get hot- that only happens if it runs low/dry. Make sure the fuel line between the tank and pump isn't clogged, kinked or delaminating. Also, inspect the anti-siphon valve at the tank outlet and the fuel pickup that dips into the tank.

hewlett6621
09-20-2012, 02:27 AM
Not to get too far away from OP ?'s, but I have the same pump on my '97 ps205, and it has been running with no problems. I do however hear a very load whining noise coming from the pump. You can hear it when the engine is running and the cover is closed. You can also "feel" the whine if you touch the pump. It seems as if the noise has always been there, 3rd season since I've owned it, but I'd swear it has gotten loader this year, or I'm just more aware of it. The boat will still do 41mph, and always starts. Does anyone else notice an unusaully load pump, or is it just me. I don't want to get stranded, but I also don't want to spend $154 at NAPA or $325 at skidim if I don't have to.

My pump makes a whining noise as well. Changed the pump and the new one makes the same noise. Boat runs great just that whining noise at skiing speeds. At lower revs it sounds much better.