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CantRepeat
09-07-2012, 08:31 AM
I was looking around on the zero off page this morning and came across this little item.

About Zero Off & Perfect Pass?

In May of 2008 Zero Off & Perfect Pass signed an agreement that states;
1) Perfect Pass will not offer drive by wire systems to boat OEM’s beginning 2009 boat model year.
2) Perfect Pass will not offer retrofit systems for 2009 model year for drive by wire applications.
3) Perfect Pass is licensed to sell Star Gazer to its existing customer base until the beginning of 2009 boat model year.
4) Zero Off will not retrofit mechanically/servo driven applications.




I guess this means no more PP for 09 boats and newer and no zero off retrofits for older boats. Strange, but I guess that ensures each company has control over each part of the market and they wont have to compete with each other.

jk13
09-07-2012, 11:51 AM
Wow, that's strange. Sounds like a good deal for Zero Off moving forward, but a little short sighted on Perfect Pass' part, especially losing the OEM.

About 10 years ago we dealt with two different companies for aftermarket automotive cruise controls. While there was no agreement like above, one company held fast to upgrading the older style universal mechanical cruise, while the other put all their r&d into new market electronic integration and held onto their existing universal system. One of those companies closed the doors four years ago. I'll let you guess which one.

Hopefully PP has other plans for revenue, because the market for people updating older boats cannot be as big as losing every single new boat sale.

I wonder if this is for 3-event boats only? I thought PP was still an option on some wake boats.???

sk8salomon
09-07-2012, 10:13 PM
out with the old, in with the new...what's next, more letters and numbers to add to the system? "ok, i'll take F7 36mph" ;)...at least i don't have to ask my boat crew weight anymore.

east tx skier
09-08-2012, 12:30 AM
Perfect Pass also got a license to Zero Off's GPS tech. This probably resulted in the more recent pure GPS system and, ultimately the Zbox add on to SG. As for retrofitting ZO to earlier boats, there are companies doing that as well. Of course, in some instances, that requires a new engine.

paco_06
05-04-2016, 09:03 AM
Bump. I am looking into speed control for my 1993 mastercraft for the slalom course on private and public lakes. Both of my ski partners have zero off in their boats and to my knowledge zero off is only available on drive by wire boats. Is this correct, and if so, which pp will be the closest to zero off? It really doesn't matter which I get, but for their sake I'd really like to have zero off as they say it's a different pull than pp.

Please excuse the dumb question, but up until a few weeks ago, I just thought that zero off was pp's version for drive my wire boats and it was all the same company! I just now realized they are two different companies!

ProStar Slalom
05-04-2016, 09:12 AM
Bump. I am looking into speed control for my 1993 mastercraft for the slalom course on private and public lakes. Both of my ski partners have zero off in their boats and to my knowledge zero off is only available on drive by wire boats. Is this correct, and if so, which pp will be the closest to zero off? It really doesn't matter which I get, but for their sake I'd really like to have zero off as they say it's a different pull than pp.

Please excuse the dumb question, but up until a few weeks ago, I just thought that zero off was pp's version for drive my wire boats and it was all the same company! I just now realized they are two different companies!


PP Stargazer with the Zbox option will be the closest thing to Zero off

paco_06
05-04-2016, 09:24 AM
PP Stargazer with the Zbox option will be the closest thing to Zero off
Will it be worth the extra money to have it? I am new to the course, so I doubt it will matter for me at this point, but if it's worth it I'll definitely upgrade.

east tx skier
05-04-2016, 09:32 AM
Will it be worth the extra money to have it? I am new to the course, so I doubt it will matter for me at this point, but if it's worth it I'll definitely upgrade.

You can do it in stages. Start by getting the latest version of Perfect Pass Stargazer. The latest revision of Stargazer is really good. The Zbox has an accelerometer in it that makes it behave more like ZO. You can add that on later. Zbox install takes about 15 minutes for anyone who can use a screwdriver. My bet is you won't need it.

What I found early is that if you were skiing with people who were pretty picky about their cruise control systems (often, higher level skiers), they didn't want to ski behind a boat that did not have something comparable. So that I could get my boat into the rotation, I got what was, then, the highest level of Perfect Pass. I have been on the spot with updates since that time. Save for converting to SG and Zbox from traditional PP, the updates don't tend to be very expensive ($45 or so).

paco_06
05-04-2016, 09:42 AM
You can do it in stages. Start by getting the latest version of Perfect Pass Stargazer. The latest revision of Stargazer is really good. The Zbox has an accelerometer in it that makes it behave more like ZO. You can add that on later. Zbox install takes about 15 minutes for anyone who can use a screwdriver. My bet is you won't need it.

What I found early is that if you were skiing with people who were pretty picky about their cruise control systems (often, higher level skiers), they didn't want to ski behind a boat that did not have something comparable. So that I could get my boat into the rotation, I got what was, then, the highest level of Perfect Pass. I have been on the spot with updates since that time. Save for converting to SG and Zbox from traditional PP, the updates don't tend to be very expensive ($45 or so).
OK, thanks! That's what I'm thinking, for myself I think stargazer will be plenty fine but I don't want to disable my fellow skiers. One guy can get into 32 off and I'd hate to throw him off, because the more I "attempt" the course the more I see one little tweak or glitch can ruin the entire run! I'll probably go ahead and spring for the z box, heck what's another 400 when you're already dropping 1400!

CantRepeat
05-04-2016, 10:11 AM
Hey Doug,

Off the top of your head do you know if the stargazer boxes are flashable to different firmware? I'd bet if they are it's something you have to send to PP.

east tx skier
05-04-2016, 12:20 PM
Hey Doug,

Off the top of your head do you know if the stargazer boxes are flashable to different firmware? I'd bet if they are it's something you have to send to PP.

They send you a USB stick. You open the top of the master module, insert the USB stick, and turn on the ignition. It takes a couple of minutes. Nothing to it. Just make sure your battery is charged up.

east tx skier
05-04-2016, 12:24 PM
OK, thanks! That's what I'm thinking, for myself I think stargazer will be plenty fine but I don't want to disable my fellow skiers. One guy can get into 32 off and I'd hate to throw him off, because the more I "attempt" the course the more I see one little tweak or glitch can ruin the entire run! I'll probably go ahead and spring for the z box, heck what's another 400 when you're already dropping 1400!

Some folks can be pretty picky about cruise control. If these guys are skiing in lots of tournaments, they may want/need to have that extra pull applied similar to ZO. But, at that point, they may just want to ski with ZO. It happens. Most of the people I ski with are happy to have a decent cruise control.

With ZG and Zbox, my boat will hold speed well within tolerance at +/- 0.02 seconds of actual course time ball to ball. And that was with a headwind. I think that's as much due to the software update as anything.

CantRepeat
05-04-2016, 12:40 PM
They send you a USB stick. You open the top of the master module, insert the USB stick, and turn on the ignition. It takes a couple of minutes. Nothing to it. Just make sure your battery is charged up.

Nice, I've not had to open the box so never knew there a USB port in there. I'll give them a call tomorrow.

Thanks!

JMLVMI
05-04-2016, 03:27 PM
Some folks can be pretty picky about cruise control. If these guys are skiing in lots of tournaments, they may want/need to have that extra pull applied similar to ZO. But, at that point, they may just want to ski with ZO. It happens. Most of the people I ski with are happy to have a decent cruise control.

With ZG and Zbox, my boat will hold speed well within tolerance at +/- 0.02 seconds of actual course time ball to ball. And that was with a headwind. I think that's as much due to the software update as anything.

Heard nothing but good things about the Z-Box.

SKIBUMM
05-05-2016, 01:55 PM
I agree with East TX Skier. I have a 94 with PP stargazer and Z-Box and it is pretty close to ZO. I cant tell a difference but I do not get too deep in the course. Others who get deeper say they can tell a slight difference but not enough to matter. Mine also holds speed within +/- 0.02 ball to ball. I have heard of some people having issue with a short set up and Z-Box not settling in fast enough. I have not ever had the issue however.

paco_06
05-05-2016, 02:57 PM
I agree with East TX Skier. I have a 94 with PP stargazer and Z-Box and it is pretty close to ZO. I cant tell a difference but I do not get too deep in the course. Others who get deeper say they can tell a slight difference but not enough to matter. Mine also holds speed within +/- 0.02 ball to ball. I have heard of some people having issue with a short set up and Z-Box not settling in fast enough. I have not ever had the issue however.
This is the exact info I was looking for, thanks for sharing!

Looks like z box is what I'll be getting. What's the shortest lake you have used yours on? Mine will spend some time on a lake only 1,850 ft long. The owner just swapped props on his 197 in order for the zero off to engage before the pre gates. It was engaging 30-60 ft after, now he has it engaging around 40' before the greens. Is this the issue you speak of skibumm?

SkiWest
05-06-2016, 01:40 PM
I think the issues with short setups is that after you get the skier up, you really have to get on the throttle to get up to speed fast enough and when you're that deep with the throttle, the servo has to unwind quite a bit to get the boat settled in at the right speed and can come in a little hot.

Perfect Pass recommends slowly accelerating until it engages, thus less work for it to do to settle into speed.

east tx skier
05-06-2016, 06:02 PM
The newer software is a big improvement in this department, but there is still a mechanical link that will be slower to respond than a cableless throttle.

paco_06
05-07-2016, 03:19 PM
I think the issues with short setups is that after you get the skier up, you really have to get on the throttle to get up to speed fast enough and when you're that deep with the throttle, the servo has to unwind quite a bit to get the boat settled in at the right speed and can come in a little hot.

Perfect Pass recommends slowly accelerating until it engages, thus less work for it to do to settle into speed.
I didn't think about the servo motor versus the drive by wire in terms of response. I'm sure like eastie says, updated software should mostly correct this. It will definitely be a question to ask while I'm ordering because the lake it will get used to most at will be wide open starting into the course!

east tx skier
05-07-2016, 03:56 PM
I didn't think about the servo motor versus the drive by wire in terms of response. I'm sure like eastie says, updated software should mostly correct this. It will definitely be a question to ask while I'm ordering because the lake it will get used to most at will be wide open starting into the course!

You can make a cable throttle with Perfect Pass work in a short setup. You just can't drive it like a wireless throttled boat. As mentioned earlier, with the servo system, you need to land that throttle position only slightly above what it takes to hit the speed you're shooting for. If you do that, it will settle in quickly. With the wireless system, you can just hammer it and it'll lock in.

Despite this advantage, I still prefer the feel of a cable throttle when getting skiers up. I've had no trouble with 34 mph in a short setup.

paco_06
05-07-2016, 04:33 PM
Great news, I was thinking if you were close on the throttle it would lock in faster. Then again, I was thinking the system would "zero out" to a baseline and have to spool up every time.

One more question that I'm sure won't matter, but will pp set in like zero off in terms of locking in. Set it before you start and throttle past desired speed and just pull back on throttle to disengage?

CantRepeat
05-07-2016, 04:38 PM
You can make a cable throttle with Perfect Pass work in a short setup. You just can't drive it like a wireless throttled boat. As mentioned earlier, with the servo system, you need to land that throttle position only slightly above what it takes to hit the speed you're shooting for. If you do that, it will settle in quickly. With the wireless system, you can just hammer it and it'll lock in.

Despite this advantage, I still prefer the feel of a cable throttle when getting skiers up. I've had no trouble with 34 mph in a short setup.

It makes the wife a pro driver for sure!! :D

epnault
05-07-2016, 08:08 PM
Great news, I was thinking if you were close on the throttle it would lock in faster. Then again, I was thinking the system would "zero out" to a baseline and have to spool up every time.

One more question that I'm sure won't matter, but will pp set in like zero off in terms of locking in. Set it before you start and throttle past desired speed and just pull back on throttle to disengage?

PP normally (never used Zbox) will not function like that of zero off for the set speed. I think it mimics the pull while under way. Like CantReleat says zero is easier to drive with because you don't have to get it close, just hammer down

jpattigr
05-10-2016, 12:34 PM
I upgraded my Stargazer to Z-Box last year and was very happy with the results, it locks in quicker and holds the speed very well in my older ski boat. I do drive a new Prostar at my ski club with Zero Off regularly and Z-Box mimics it pretty well. Z-Box is a worthy upgrade for older boats!!

KyleNowad
05-10-2016, 11:50 PM
I upgraded my Stargazer to Z-Box last year and was very happy with the results, it locks in quicker and holds the speed very well in my older ski boat. I do drive a new Prostar at my ski club with Zero Off regularly and Z-Box mimics it pretty well. Z-Box is a worthy upgrade for older boats!!

Good to know. My birthday is coming up...

east tx skier
05-11-2016, 10:55 AM
PP normally (never used Zbox) will not function like that of zero off for the set speed. I think it mimics the pull while under way. Like CantReleat says zero is easier to drive with because you don't have to get it close, just hammer down

That's mostly a function of the wireless throttle interacting with the speed control, but it is nice.

paco_06
06-30-2016, 06:11 PM
I need help guys with zbox. I just bought the system and installing now. Do I need to wait and get slalom times before installing zbox? Or can I install from the start? Since it's usually an upgrade, directions only show installing on an existing system. I just installed three event and haven't turned it on yet. Pp is closed till Monday, I just tried calling.

SkiWest
06-30-2016, 09:32 PM
Awesome, look forward to hearing how the setup goes. I don't have personal experience but have heard a few times it's best to get stargazer dialed in in the course before adding zbox.

KyleNowad
06-30-2016, 11:53 PM
I need help guys with zbox. I just bought the system and installing now. Do I need to wait and get slalom times before installing zbox? Or can I install from the start? Since it's usually an upgrade, directions only show installing on an existing system. I just installed three event and haven't turned it on yet. Pp is closed till Monday, I just tried calling.

It's my understanding that ZBox just helps calculate the acceleration and deceleration and be more exact with the set speed. I have used a GPS app on my iPhone to get the speed about as close as I can. I'm not tournament level skiing by any means though.

east tx skier
07-01-2016, 03:48 PM
I need help guys with zbox. I just bought the system and installing now. Do I need to wait and get slalom times before installing zbox? Or can I install from the start? Since it's usually an upgrade, directions only show installing on an existing system. I just installed three event and haven't turned it on yet. Pp is closed till Monday, I just tried calling.

You can run times with it installed or not. Doesn't matter.

paco_06
07-01-2016, 10:56 PM
Ok, thanks. I'll feel OK running it installed. I'm still a little confused though, is this system programmable of some kind? Thought I was gonna get to try it out today, but didn't. Asking my skiing partners about their zero off, and they said they didn't have to change any settings/bouy numbers...

paco_06
07-01-2016, 11:03 PM
Basically, I guess what I'm asking is, can I just turn it on, map the course, and ski? I know the three event has different settings for skier weight, I definitely understand that.

david_ski
07-02-2016, 11:51 AM
Basically, I guess what I'm asking is, can I just turn it on, map the course, and ski? I know the three event has different settings for skier weight, I definitely understand that.

Short answer is YES!

Turn it on, map out your course to get the GPS coordinates, and then just ski. I upgraded to ZBox a year ago and that is all we had to do to get it running.

SkiWest
07-22-2016, 10:15 PM
Paco, how'd the stargazer setup on your boat go? Any issues with timing through the course or getting settled in with the short setup?

paco_06
07-22-2016, 11:08 PM
So far so good. Only got to ski it once on the short course. Very good numbers and very good pull at 34mph. Surged a little at 32mph, found out I didn't calibrate correctly. Hoping all is good now. I really love it overall, money well spent!!!