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milkmania
09-03-2005, 01:54 AM
http://mfile2.akamai.com/8753/wma/www.cbc.ca/netstorage/wwl_raynagin050902.wma

Mayor Ray Nagin speaks to the radio....

I listened to every bit of it.... RIGHT ON!!!!:worthy:

6ballsisall
09-03-2005, 09:55 AM
I'm sorry. Nagin needs to shut his hole. The people that are down there working their butts of night and day. Many people from the guard and other sources lost their homes and families too but they are working hard to save others.

This is a tradegy beyond our wildest imaginations. I think everyone can agree that given hindsights always 20/20 things could have been done differently on many levels of this situation. However, I for one am getting really sick of Nagin #itchin and moanin' about everything. He spends more time on the radio and news than any other official, why doesn't he get out there and put his money where his mouth is??

I'll get off my soap box now. I know Nagin is trying to light a fire under some people but his calls have been heard, assets are in the area and even more are on the way. IMO he needs to shutup and put his money where his mouth is!

erkoehler
09-03-2005, 10:09 AM
I agree with JR 100%! Also, remember that the media is only showing portions of what is going on down there. You are not getting a full view of what is taking place watching TV or reading the papers.

PendO
09-03-2005, 10:49 AM
It would have been nice if they had told everyone about the fact that the levy's were only expected to hold up to a Class 3 Hurricane ... if you have ever been to New Orleans you have likely been told of the hurricane scenario ... I'm sure that the Mayor had some good things to say, but J.C. who the hell set up Plan A and Plan B ... they had no plan for this catastrophe ... I wish that the military had gotten their sooner, but I do not understand/comprehend the logistics of it all ... New Orleans knew that this day could come, that it would come, first and foremost the city owed their citizeny a better plan of action, along with contingency plans. Having watched it unfold from thousands of miles away I actually wept watching the live footage of the convoys of vehicles driving through the water to reach the people at the convention center & superdome with water and food. WHAT TOOK SO ****ING LONG?

New Orleans has spent plenty of money on different city beautification endeavors ... they could have spend a little bit on stockpiling food/water in case of such a catastrophe.

As a Republican I was embarrased/frustrated that the President did not get their sooner with help ... this happened on his watch, nothing will change that ... however, to run and blame Pres. Bush for this would be intellectually dishonest, the failures happened much earlier in the chain of command and responsibility.

MasterMason
09-03-2005, 11:57 AM
I listened to this idiot, and I am speachless. Is he not the Mayor of the City? He blamed everyone under the sun except himself. He tried to justify the fact that they were looting, he wants to know why someone didn't safeguard the pump even though "he told" them that it was required. Where is his leadership and responsiblity to his people.

I am sorry this is a terrible tragedy, but when those planes hit the tower, Guliani didn't blame others, he set about making things better for his people, taking control and getting the job done, not whinning.

I made the largest donation I have ever made to go to the victims of this tragedy, I feel terrible for those that have lost everything, but the blame game needs to be played much later. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v713/MasterMason/icon_exclaim.gif

AirJunky
09-03-2005, 12:40 PM
I agree with JR 100%! Also, remember that the media is only showing portions of what is going on down there. You are not getting a full view of what is taking place watching TV or reading the papers.
I have a buddy in Baton Rouge...... and what we're seeing on TV is not even close to how bad it really is down there. TV just doesn't convey the stench or gag factor everyone is living with.
I think the mayor is frustrated & pissed off. He may be blaming the feds, but there is plenty of blame to go around, regardless of race or political affiliation. The bottom line is they we're NOT prepared, despite the fact that they had an emergency preparedness convention less than a year ago IN THE SUPERDOME! At the time, the leader of FEMA declared the convention a huge success. Yet when it came down to it, no one thought to get trucks & buses down there to evacuate the poor people a week ago. No one thought to deploy the Navy hospital ship till Wednesday & now it's not going to be there till NEXT SUNDAY!
The N.O. paper did a huge write up on the levys in 2001, saying, among other things, that they were only designed for a cat.3 storm. So they knew it, at the city state & federal level. But nothing got done to fix it.
Heads are gonna roll on this one..........

6ballsisall
09-03-2005, 01:20 PM
I listened to this idiot, and I am speachless. Is he not the Mayor of the City? He blamed everyone under the sun except himself. He tried to justify the fact that they were looting, he wants to know why someone didn't safeguard the pump even though "he told" them that it was required. Where is his leadership and responsiblity to his people.

I am sorry this is a terrible tragedy, but when those planes hit the tower, Guliani didn't blame others, he set about making things better for his people, taking control and getting the job done, not whinning.

I made the largest donation I have ever made to go to the victims of this tragedy, I feel terrible for those that have lost everything, but the blame game needs to be played much later. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v713/MasterMason/icon_exclaim.gif


Bingo! My thoughts exactly. It's HIS citizens that are looting and HIS citizens shooting people. HIS police are to be working on that. Guilanni showed great leadership under extremely stressful and difficult times. Maybe we need to fly Guilanni down there and have him take over. If I was down there working the streets and bustin my arse like our troops are and I heard his rantin' I'd grab him by his shirt collar and drag his arse out on the sewer stricken streets and tell him to get to work.

Bottomline is there will be plenty of time for finger pointing and yelling after the mess is cleaned up. IMO he needs to shut up and figure out how to save his city and LEAD the people

John B
09-03-2005, 01:44 PM
The Mayor said some thing that make sound like he thinks he's not at fault and that everyone else is.
HE WAS ASKING FOR HELP!
He had been asking for days and getting nothing.
When the Local Government brakes down, the State Government takes over.
If the State Government can not take over the Federal Government has to come in.
It was know what was going to happen might wipe everything out on most of the Gulf Coast days before it happen.
The Feds.should have been ready to move in by Tuesday.
What was done was SURVIVAL of the FITTEST.
THAT IS THE KIND OF CRAP THAT GO ON IN A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY NOT HERE.
Right now I'm not proud to be a American.
We spend millions of dollars a day to fight a war for a bunch of RagHeads, and then we let this happen at home!
WHO'S TO BLAME WE ALL ARE.

milkmania
09-03-2005, 02:21 PM
I agree there is going to be a lot of finger pointing...
I agree it is Ray Nagin's people that are raping, pilaging, blundering their city.
What I don't agree with is why it's taking so long to get anything done, these people are being turned back into the city at the checkpoint.
I've seen or heard about faster relief to Somalia, Afganistan, and other third world countries.

Can you imagine the grief, heartache, helplessness, turmoil these people are going through? I cannot.
I stood in the shower last night and cried, thanking my God that I have the luxury of cleaning myself, providing meals & water for my family and knowing where each one of my family members are!

I see the hurt and pain in these people's faces, I see the frustration in their hearts.
For some reason this disaster hits me harder than the September 11th. attack on the World Trade Centers. I don't know if it's the prolonged agony these people are facing, I don't know if it's the cluster*** that seems to be the relief effot in this situation, I just don't know.
Looting for food, water, clothes & shoes I can see... Looting for big screen TV's, Laptops, Jewelery, etc.... I cannot see. But, that is my opinion:o

I give Mayor Ray Nagin my best wishes and hope he can keep his sanity throughout all this. I know I would have probably run, hid and got my family to safety by now....but that's why I'm not the mayor. I'm selfish that way....my family comes first.
I've learned that since September 11th. Homeland Security took over a lot of FEMA's internal functions, and FEMA is therefore not able to function autonomously like they one did before the attacks. I've learned that The Red Cross is a civilian entity and cannot enter the city until it is delared "stabilized" and it cannot be stabilized until the bad guys are handled appropiately.

I read one statement that this (New Orleans) is not a natural disaster, it's a manmade disaster... it didn't just happen in 4 days, it happened over 4 decades. Katrina just brought the problem to light to show these people that they had erred in their building of the city. But the same could be said for the cities nead Mt. Saint Helens, the Bay Area Earthquake of 1989. But these people should have and probably did realized that their destruction was eminent. I think Molly Hatchet speaks of it best.... "Flirtin' With Disaster"
But even though they decided to build on shaky ground (sand from years of the Mississippi River silt deposits), they are still human beings.

Holland has an incredible drainage system in place, and one would think that their engineers should be consulted in the rebuilding of New Orleans, but their substrate is granite. (ok, that was left field)
I'm just all twisted emotionally.


I used to think that disasters were nature's way of poplulation control.... kinda like the way coyotes, wolves, and other preditors control overpopulation and disease by killing the weaker, diseased animals. "Survival of the Fittest, if you will", but then I helped take care of my Grandmother in her dieing years and that changed my views on that, but I still think it applies in some sense. (that was from right field)

milkmania
09-03-2005, 02:24 PM
The Mayor said some thing that make sound like he thinks he's not at fault and that everyone else is.
HE WAS ASKING FOR HELP!
He had been asking for days and getting nothing.
When the Local Government brakes down, the State Government takes over.
If the State Government can not take over the Federal Government has to come in.
It was know what was going to happen might wipe everything out on most of the Gulf Coast days before it happen.
The Feds.should have been ready to move in by Tuesday.
What was done was SURVIVAL of the FITTEST.
THAT IS THE KIND OF CRAP THAT GO ON IN A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY NOT HERE.
Right now I'm not proud to be a American.
We spend millions of dollars a day to fight a war for a bunch of RagHeads, and then we let this happen at home!
WHO'S TO BLAME WE ALL ARE.

John,
I had not read your post before I stated writing my "book" post, and I'm glad to see what you wrote:)

milkmania
09-03-2005, 02:31 PM
I mentioned 4 decades above..... It should have read "many" decades:rolleyes:

shepherd
09-03-2005, 11:50 PM
Right now I'm not proud to be a American.
We spend millions of dollars a day to fight a war for a bunch of RagHeads, and then we let this happen at home!
WHO'S TO BLAME WE ALL ARE.

I am proud to be an American, especially when I see the outpouring of support from people all over this country. People opening up their homes to strangers, volunteering to help relief efforts, and donating money. That is as evident here on this web site as anywhere else.

So, just because the people who are in power may have screwed things up and dropped the ball, most everyone else is doing what they can to help.

John B, I won't take the blame for the N.O. government's lack of planning, nor will I take it for the fed government's slow response. :noface:

PendO
09-04-2005, 12:28 AM
Why didn't Bush come visit on Wednesday? (I voted for him and would like to know = couldn't he clear his schedule for the largest natural disaster in American history?)

Where were the chinook helicopters on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday?

Were there no MRE's to air drop Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday?

If the city of New Orleans knew the levy's would not handle above a class 4, why didn't they put more food in the convention center / Superdome?

Thanks for showing up in the 4th quarter, sure could have used you in the first half!

erkoehler
09-04-2005, 12:39 AM
Did anybody hear the interview where there was a gentlement (some high up) saying that he didn't think that people should be prosecuted for the pilaging and looting that took place. He stated that if they were taking big screen TV's and laptops it was likely that they just wanted to trade them for food????

What are everyones opinions on this, should the looters be prosecuted???

:huh: :huh:

PendO
09-04-2005, 12:50 AM
give them a spot in line (to be prosecuted) right behind the jackass who didn't stockpile food and water

shepherd
09-04-2005, 01:07 AM
Did anybody hear the interview where there was a gentlement (some high up) saying that he didn't think that people should be prosecuted for the pilaging and looting that took place. He stated that if they were taking big screen TV's and laptops it was likely that they just wanted to trade them for food????

What are everyones opinions on this, should the looters be prosecuted???

:huh: :huh:

In "Shepherd's world", looters would be made to pay restitution and if they can't, lock them up unless they were taking emergency needs like food and water (hey, if my family was starving or dying of thirst, I'd go into that Walmart too). Roving gangs of armed men who are robbing innocent citizens and preventing rescue efforts would be shot on sight!

:twocents:

shepherd
09-04-2005, 01:10 AM
He stated that if they were taking big screen TV's and laptops it was likely that they just wanted to trade them for food????


:uglyhamme

yeah, that's what it is, yeah, that's the ticket... :cool:

John B
09-04-2005, 01:16 AM
I am proud to be an American, especially when I see the outpouring of support from people all over this country. People opening up their homes to strangers, volunteering to help relief efforts, and donating money. That is as evident here on this web site as anywhere else.

So, just because the people who are in power may have screwed things up and dropped the ball, most everyone else is doing what they can to help.

John B, I won't take the blame for the N.O. government's lack of planning, nor will I take it for the fed government's slow response. :noface:
Of the people for the people.
The people who are in power and screwed up was us when we elected George W. Bush.

DanC
09-04-2005, 01:29 AM
I think you folks are missing the difficulties and amount of time to takes to mount relief efforts of this scale. It takes a day to pull in relief workers from their day jobs. It takes a day to get enough food and supplies for the rescuers as well as the rescues. Where do they go to refuel? Where the heck are hundreds of rescue workers going to take a dump? Where do they bivouac when they are off shift? What the heck do you do with the bad guys, handcuff them to a light pole? Somebody has to mobilize the paperwork pushers and track this stuff. Whether you like it or not, this is the type of thing where thieves come out of the cracks and embezzle all kinds of things and dollars. Our military trains for this sort of thing. Our military stockpiles for this sort of thing and even they need some time to launch something on this scale. Our military is not in charge here. How many organizations do you think are involved here? Most of you have no appreciation for the difficulties involved here. It is not as simple as dropping pallets of water, food and port-a-potties. Arm chair quarterbacking from in front of your tv is easy.

Leroy
09-04-2005, 01:30 AM
Ok, WOW!

Let me start by saying if you are Mayor of a city ~20ft under land you should have a plan for when the levy breaks, local issue, not federal issue. Out of the hundreds of schools in the area and hundreds of buses, why couldn't they take people out. If your city is as poor as it looks now, you need a plan to help the people just like there is a great Mardi Gras plan. The Mayor and state Governor look like scared deer yelling for help. Where are the cities police force or police forces of other cities in NO? The whole state did not get wiped out.

Bush has sent in the big guns and levy essentially plugged and draining will start as soon as the cities water level is less than the lake.

Anyone caught raping, killing, looting for personal gain should be shot on sight. To be in this situation and people thinking about sex or money and not how can I help my fellow citizens is unbelievable.

Finally, this really is a great diaster and the people there need help!

DanC
09-04-2005, 01:37 AM
Of the people for the people.
The people who are in power and screwed up was us when we elected George W. Bush.

Funny. When a city builds below a lake level and then doesn't build adequate levees to hold it back it is the president's and the fed's fault? If this were the rich folks in Malibu falling into the ocean after an earthquake, I think you would be saying "why the heck did the local gvt allow them to build there? "Why the heck should federal money be expected to clean up a disaster caused by poor local gvt?" I'm not saying we shouldn't be running to the help of N.O. Just don't blame the feds, Democrat or Republican.

maristarman
09-04-2005, 01:38 AM
Of the people for the people.
The people who are in power and screwed up was us when we elected George W. Bush.


No doubt you are one of those people that is against the war (as witnessed by your "raghead" comment in a previous post) and you hate Bush and want to blame him for everything that is wrong in the entire world.

Grow up. How far back do we go to attribute blame?

Do we go back to Clintons first term in office when the Army Corps of Engineers specifically asked him to approve funds to shore up the levies because they knew they couldn't withstand a Cat 4, much less a Cat 5 hurricaine? Or do we go to 38 years of a democratically controlled congress and senate through most of the 70s, 80s, and 90s?

Right now is a time for us to be doing what we can to help the people in the gulf states to start piecing their lives back together.

There's no doubt in my mind that the politicians will have a field day with "investigations" and "special committees" that in the end will not tell us anything we don't already know.

We knew the levies weren't strong, and we (the city of New Orleans, the State of Lousiana, and the U.S. Federal Government) took a calculated risk.

But to now say that we (each and every single american?) is to blame is absurd.

I live in the Bay Area in California, if the "big one" hits, and I'm one of a million people to lose everything, and there are tens of thousands of "us" homeless, I expect America to respond and to do what it can. But I certainly wouldn't "blame" them for my choice of where to live.

Anyone who knows anything about the Big Easy knows the city is and has been literally sinking for decades. They were taking a calculated risk by chosing to live there.

I don't know of any country in the world who could respond to such a large scale natural disaster in 1 day. Especially when the first group of helicopters to go in (to rescue people) were getting shot at by those "poor innocent" looters. Then compound it with the fact that there is massive flooding and the roads and bridges are GONE.

It means things are gonna take some time.

As for those looters that were shooting at rescue personnel and vehicles, including the cops (1500 of them who put their own personal safety and the safety of their families aside to help other victims) lock them up and throw away the key. :mad:

DanC
09-04-2005, 01:41 AM
Do we go back to Clintons first term in office when the Army Corps of Engineers specifically asked him to approve funds to shore up the levies because they knew they couldn't withstand a Cat 4, much less a Cat 5 hurricaine? Or do we go to 38 years of a .................................

As for those looters that were shooting at rescue personnel and vehicles, including the cops (1500 of them who put their own personal safety and the safety of their families aside to help other victims) lock them up and throw away the key. :mad:


What he said.

MasterMason
09-04-2005, 04:41 AM
How far back do we go to attribute blame?

Do we go back to Clintons first term in office when the Army Corps of Engineers specifically asked him to approve funds to shore up the levies because they knew they couldn't withstand a Cat 4, much less a Cat 5 hurricaine? Or do we go to 38 years of a democratically controlled congress and senate through most of the 70s, 80s, and 90s?

:


Should we blame the french, they built the city originally.

H20skeefreek
09-04-2005, 09:38 AM
Should we blame the french, they built the city originally.
I believe that everything is France's fault.

What I don't get is the fact that they are talking about how long it will take to rebuild. Rebuild?? Are you kidding me? Have these people learned nothing? I understand that it is these peoples home, but come on. It was a dumb idea to build a city on the Delta in the first place. A Delta is a living, breathing, MOVING thing. Delta's and their rivers change all of the time, and to try and confine the mighty Mississippi (isn't it funny that even as adults whenever we spell that we run M-I-SS-I-SS-I-PP-I through our heads) to a specific path with earth and concrete levees is asinine. Building it here was dumb, having NO real contingency plan was dumber but REBUILD? That's just a retarded idea. One that are President needs to step in and say NO to. The mayor wants to point fingers and the governor wants to point fingers and the president "couldn't know the levees would fail". But it is the Public officials that need to step up and say WE F****D UP, BUT WE AREN'T GOING TO DO IT AGAIN. Those poor people have lost enough, so if we don't get them out of the same situation, it'll happen again, and that WILL we G.W.'s fault if they start rebuilding while he's in office, and if it takes another 4 years to start rebuilding it'll be Hillary's fault. Or Aunald's, whoever this country elects.

Without the coastal marshes in place, and even with them, we are expecting more and bigger hurricanes over the next decade due to the increased water temp in the Gulf because of global warming. So my proposal is this:

Every day a city in the US votes down a landfill site. I think we should turn New Orleans, LA into Landfill, LA. Fill 'er up! Then in 20 years after the city is sitting AT sea level (or higher) like a NORMAL coastal city, then you can survey and test for stability and see if it's basically HEAVY enough to withstand pressure from the Mississippi. If so, then we rebuild NewER Orleans.

It's been done. Parts of San Francisco, actually most of San Fran according to the internet is built on a landfill of mostly old seafaring ships. While they are worried about it's integrity in a major earthquake, it still stands even after some of the nasty ones that they've had.

BriEOD
09-04-2005, 12:20 PM
Well, no one likes what they see on the media. However, the media is famous for spinning things however they want to spin it.

I agree that something needs to be done and fast. As for the military it's not quite that simple. The National Guard can get in there and do what ever they want with the simple request from the Governor. The Guard is a State run entity. However, our active duty military troops need special permission to do anything in this regard. If you remember the Constitution does not allow active duty military to do policing/fighting in our streets and homes. This was something the Founding Fathers put in a long time ago. They didn't want the military to take over. However, their is a clause (Posse Comitatus) that allows active duty troops to step in with executive/legislative approval. This takes time. Plus, our military as you well know is very tapped right now.

With all that said I know for sure that C-5's, C-17's and C-9's have been flying in supplies and taking out people. In fact they are putting up tents and a triage here at Charleston AFB inside of air conditioned hangars and are flying people out of New Orleans via C-17. They are feeding them, have shower and toilets and a safe place to live. The ones needing immediate care are being transported to hospitals in the area. What, because it's not on the news it's no happening, right? Funny how the media only shows the bad stuff, just like in Iraq. I wonder why their was such a gas scare, couldn't have been the media. :rolleyes: See for yourself all the good things the AF is doing: http://www.af.mil/

Also, if I hear one more time that it's a race thing I'm gonna pop. If they have it so rough pack all their a$$es on a boat and send them back to where they come from so they'll stop b*tching and they can see how good they all really have it.

redmike
09-04-2005, 12:29 PM
I just packed up all of my portable generators at work to be shipped down to NO (i work at the naval shipyard) and there is talk about sending some of us down there to help out with the situation. That being said, the shipyard will not let us go in until the situation is more stable, they can't take the risk. So, like Brian said, our military/goverment is doing it's job, but unfortuantely in the goverment, things just don't happen overnight.

bigmac
09-04-2005, 12:55 PM
Well, no one likes what they see on the media. However, the media is famous for spinning things however they want to spin it.

I agree that something needs to be done and fast. As for the military it's not quite that simple. The National Guard can get in there and do what ever they want with the simple request from the Governor. The Guard is a State run entity. However, our active duty military troops need special permission to do anything in this regard. If you remember the Constitution does not allow active duty military to do policing/fighting in our streets and homes. This was something the Founding Fathers put in a long time ago. They didn't want the military to take over. However, their is a clause (Posse Comitatus) that allows active duty troops to step in with executive/legislative approval. This takes time.

Boy, the finger-pointing and blame-assigning (it's the American Way) over this mess has just begun. It's going to get brutal.

While the President has the power to send federal troops to a natural disaster, it has always been customary to wait for such a request from the state's governor. Note that 9/11 was different in that that was an actual attack on the USA, not a natural disaster. Formal request for Federal troops didn't come until way after the fact. Most of that blame appears like it should fall on Louisiana's governor. She had 4 days before the storm even hit to get the National Guard up and moving. Also note that the mayor of New Orleans does NOT have that power - his strident rhetoric was not really addressed by the Governor - the only person who could really do anything about it at that point. Interesting that President Bush hasn't really mentioned these points, and so far has been willing to take the heat for the late Federal response. Bush appears to have been even more tuned-in than the governor, as he declared the area a Federal Disaster Area and sent FEMA in in advance of the hurricane.

Some people (including the New York Times) are even blaming President Bush for the hurricane itself. They also blame him for the resultant gas crunch, even though the Times itself has been one of the most vocal crusaders for limiting oil drilling and refinery building in the US. And then there's some apparently-famous Rap musician on TV saying (actually SAYING, not implying) that the problem is that Bush did this intentionally because he hates black people. Hoo boy...

I suspect we are entering Political Spin Zone like we've never seen before - a virtual "Perfect Storm" of finger-pointing.

:popcorn:

BriEOD
09-04-2005, 01:13 PM
While the President has the power to send federal troops to a natural disaster, it has always been customary to wait for such a request from the state's governor.

Half way right Big Mac. The Executive branch can send federal troops for Humanitarian Aid, but not for policing, law enforcement. That requires authorization for the Legislative Branch. TACC was moving planes within 48 hrs of the disaster with aid.

For your reading pleasure:

June 18, 1878

CHAP. 263 - An act making appropriations for the support of the Army for the fiscal year ending June thirtieth, eighteen hundred and seventy-nine, and for other purposes.

SEC. 15. From and after the passage of this act it shall not be lawful to employ any part of the Army of the United States, as a posse comitatus, or otherwise, for the purpose of executing the laws, except in such cases and under such circumstances as such employment of said force may be expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress; and no money appropriated by this act shall be used to pay any of the expenses incurred in the employment of any troops in violation of this section And any person willfully violating the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction thereof shall be punished by fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars or imprisonment not exceeding two years or by both such fine and imprisonment.

10 U.S.C. (United States Code) 375

Sec. 375. Restriction on direct participation by military personnel:

The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe such regulations as may be necessary to ensure that any activity (including the provision of any equipment or facility or the assignment or detail of any personnel) under this chapter does not include or permit direct participation by a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps in a search, seizure, arrest, or other similar activity unless participation in such activity by such member is otherwise authorized by law.

18 U.S.C. 1385

Sec. 1385. Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus

Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of
Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to
execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.

Editor's Note: The only exemption has to do with nuclear materials (18 U.S.C. 831 (e)

bigmac
09-04-2005, 01:30 PM
Half way right Big Mac. The Executive branch can send federal troops for Humanitarian Aid, but not for policing, law enforcement. That requires authorization for the Legislative Branch.

OK. But I was actually thinking humitarian aid anyway, not policing. If Governor had started moving in that direction and made that request of the Feds in a timely fashion, like in the 4 days before the hurricane hit, or even at the same time that President Bush declared it a Federal Disaster Area, then Federal military assets for transportation, SAR, infrastructure, and humanitarian aid (MRE's and water,for example) could have taken a significant burden off of state and local police that much sooner. And had she had the National Guard up and moving in a timely fashion, THEY could have assisted with the considerable law-enforcement problem, and could have done so on her say-so alone, without any Federal request at all.

While I certainly acknowledge the limitations of federal troops in domestic law-enforcment, that function is actually specified as one of the National Guard's state-mandated duties.

PendO
09-04-2005, 01:47 PM
The clusterphuck of a evacutation plan had the largest impact on the poorest members of that community ... be it the $$ or the education, or a combination thereof. The politicians had a social, ethical, and fiduciary responsibility to all of their constituents.

I understand that newspapers had written articles about the levy's not handling a class 4 or 5, but do you think everyone reads the paper in a community where unemployment is greater than 25%?

If you are above the poverty line you were more likely to consider the fact that "its only money, its only property" ... so you get in your car and evacuate ... but if you have very little, and you are used to a "near miss" every so often, you stick around to protect what little you have after the storm ... you stick around because you don't know where you would go anyway.

bigmac
09-04-2005, 02:02 PM
Funny. When a city builds below a lake level and then doesn't build adequate levees to hold it back it is the president's and the fed's fault? If this were the rich folks in Malibu falling into the ocean after an earthquake, I think you would be saying "why the heck did the local gvt allow them to build there? "Why the heck should federal money be expected to clean up a disaster caused by poor local gvt?" I'm not saying we shouldn't be running to the help of N.O. Just don't blame the feds, Democrat or Republican.

That levy system is a function of the Army Corps of Engineers, and their ability to build it, improve it, maintain it, and repair it is a function of Federal funding. That funding has been cut significantly by Congress over the last decade, despite a number of projections and models that predicted this very gulf-coast scenario.

This finger-pointing game is great...everybody can play ;) .

bigmac
09-04-2005, 02:05 PM
I live in the Bay Area in California, if the "big one" hits.....


Uh...general concensus is that it's when the "big one" hits...

PendO
09-04-2005, 02:14 PM
That levy system is a function of the Army Corps of Engineers, and their ability to build it, improve it, maintain it, and repair it is a function of Federal funding. That funding has been cut significantly by Congress over the last decade, despite a number of projections and models that predicted this very gulf-coast scenario.

Bigmac, your right on about the Corps of Engineers ... and ultimately funding decisions are made using cost benefit analysis, and in this case risk factors are considered ... gambling with people's lives is/was irresponsible! It is unfortunate that nobody was banging their drum loud enough about funding to get the necessary help.

bigmac
09-04-2005, 02:19 PM
Bigmac, your right on about the Corps of Engineers ... and ultimately funding decisions are made using cost benefit analysis, and in this case risk factors are considered ... gambling with people's lives is/was irresponsible! It is unfortunate that nobody was banging their drum loud enough about funding to get the necessary help.

Yes, and before we as a nation get too deep into the "Blame it All on Bush" scenario, it should be noted that the initial cuts in Federal funding came while President Clinton was at the wheel.

maristarman
09-04-2005, 02:49 PM
THEY are AMERICANS ... to suggest that you would "PACK all their assses on a boat and send the back to where the come from" ... when someone is several generations removed from a foreign country I believe the only place you can "send them back to" is underwater!

My family is 3 generations removed from a foreign country, but nobody ever talks about sending my *** on a boat b/c I am white. Most of the poor in New Orleans have been in the US for much more than 3 generations.



Pendo,

I gotta ask you a question. Does your family refer to itself as "{Wherever they came from 3 generations ago} American"?

I would guess that answer is "no". Wheter any of us like it or not there is a certain percentage of this countries population that refers to itself as "African American". Unfortunately many of the leaders that promote this "sense of identity" (although as you inferred most of their ancestors probably came to america hundreds of years ago) also use every chance they can to decry everything that is "Wrong" with america and how the rich capitalist "white" run country is oppressing "their" people.

My families roots in america go back 4 generations, from a certain European country. But my ancestors were proud to be in America, and to refer to themselves as americans.

When I was in the military I worked with folks from many different ethnic backgrounds. I was always impressed how they were just proud to be "americans". They didn't need to qualify it with reference to a certain ethnicity. In fact, many of the "African Americans" I worked with specifically would point out that they weren't African, had never been to africa, and probably never would.

I'm not trying to speak for Bri, but I think he was directing his anger towards the people who have made it their living to "play the race card" every chance they can to get themselves in the spotlight and to make themselves feel more powerful, but doing very little to effect change.

Case in point, tell me one thing that Al Sharpton really does to actually help the poor inner city African Americans? He sure didn't waste any time getting himself down to Crawford to glom on to the Cindy Sheehan publicity train though.

One more question, Pendo, were you equally offended when JohnB earlier referred to all the middle eastern people as "RagHeads"? I didn't see anyone call him a racist.

Speaking for myself, we're all americans, and all part of the same race. It's called the human race.

Peace out.

milkmania
09-04-2005, 03:03 PM
Did anyone see Nascar today?
no? hmmm.... I guess "it's a race thing":D

BriEOD, just paling around.... I just wanted to see you pop:purplaugh

/end threadjack

I'll agree, the media can put a spin on things... many times it's a vicious spin, but if you watch a bunch of different channels and tune out the comments, you'll see the pain and grief I mentioned earlier.

Did you see the inside of the Superdome....
there's gonna be things in there that soap & water won't wash off!!!

BriEOD
09-04-2005, 03:38 PM
THEY are AMERICANS ...

Well than, maybe they should start refering to themselves as such. I don't agree with the term "African American" or "Irish American" etc. If you were born in America and are a citizen of America you are an American period IMO. It's a melting pot and we are a formulation of many cultures. But, back to my point I think it's absurd for a rapper to claim the president isn't taking any action because many of the people trapped are black. Or, if Jesse Jackson doesn't like what's going on, why doesn't he quit running his mouth and pointing fingers and drive down their and help with the recovery efforts.

6ballsisall
09-04-2005, 04:48 PM
The way I see it, there are hundreds and thousands of people still out there suffering and not rescued. Officials such as Nagin and others who won't stop makin an arse out himself in front of the media needs to shut up and let the relief efforts do their job. There is no way in gods green earth the US government intended to a half a$$ job on this thing, its our own people and it's a vital area of the US economy. Could things go smoother than they have, you bet! Could more planning have helped out? you bet! The bottom line is all the planning in the world won't make a darn difference at this point. The focus needs to stay on saving lives and preserving whatever way of life is available in New Orleans. The Cover your A$$ bit thats' going on between political parties and such is a disgrace to our country and is not helping saving delicate lives in New Orleans.

Leroy
09-04-2005, 05:55 PM
As an Irish-French American......I have no way to understand what is going on in the diaster region, but I wish them the best and still cannot believe how large the impacted area is.

BriEOD
09-04-2005, 06:06 PM
When I was in the military ...

I'm not trying to speak for Bri

First, thank you for serving our country. It seems less and less people want to serve our great nation in what is a very honorable profession.

Secondly, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Hoosier Bob
09-04-2005, 06:34 PM
I can't imagine responding any quicker. It takes me 30 minutes to pack a lunch for three kids. I agree I could have filled up a truck with Big Macs and been there in a day but how long would that of lasted? It all seems (so far) to be very well organized and as prepared as can be expected. Can this really have been imagined? How many loafs of bread should we keep on hand for the next trajedy? How long can you keep supplies of this magnatude in reserve? Maybe an unemployment rate of nearly 5 times the national average is the real problem. Maybe the citizens themselves were not prepared. Maybe local government should take some of that money they made on the "woman on the swing" and use it to promote self advancement. Maybe everyone is at fault and we all should shut up, put up and bust a$$ to right ourselves as well as our country, that we love by the way! I don't remember any recent catastrophy that when help finaly arrived the victoms touted "what took you so long?" How about a big "thank God!" How about maybe that same person trying to help your victimized a$$ just put his four children to bed, said I'm gonna be awhile, left his family, job and friends to help your sorry inconsiderate unthankful self. One hundred BIIILLLIIION!!!! Forget the city, get those people some real help that lasts! For that money we should be able to send everyone to local college and pay them to go! There are thousands of people giving everything they have including the government who better remember we got a lot of boys and girls out east (middle) that need just as much attention! :twocents:
PS. We all belong here together however no one ever leaves this "melting pot" because it is so easy to rise above lazyness and contentment and also easy to accept. :confused:

PendO
09-05-2005, 01:22 AM
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aa

PendO
09-05-2005, 04:37 AM
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzz

Kell
09-05-2005, 10:18 AM
Danish-American;)
Danish-American as well PendOrelSkier! ;) I missed that check box when I applied for financial aid......many years ago!

sizzler
09-05-2005, 10:25 AM
do you have "english -americans" :rolleyes:

Leroy
09-05-2005, 10:51 AM
Yes, lot of those, "we" can always pick them out! :uglyhamme



do you have "english -americans" :rolleyes:

erkoehler
09-05-2005, 12:09 PM
Lets look at the positive,

It is getting better every day! But, whats with the people that are deciding to stay at their homes that are flooded??? Rescuers are actually being turned away. I hate to say it, but that could be a reason why the death toll is going to rise. What are they going to do, where are they going to go. Possibly 60 or more days till the water is gone. I highly doubt that they have that much food and water. :mad:

maristarman
09-05-2005, 12:23 PM
do you have "english -americans" :rolleyes:

We have a real easy test for identifying those "english-americans".

We trick them into saying the word schedule.

sked yul = "real" american

shed yule = "english" american

:D

BriEOD
09-05-2005, 05:51 PM
Casey--I certainly don't want to offend anyone or piss anybody off on here. I do tire however of black people (not all, maybe not even most) looking for someone to blame, a handout, or an excuse. It's getting to the point nowadays that because of affirmative action we actually have reverse discrimination going on. I read an article recently about a southern cities police department being sued by about 9 white cops who felt they had been passed over by the Chief (black I might add) for promotion. They won the case, were all promoted and back paid for when they should have been promoted. I understand the debate for affirmative action and have sat through enough sociology classes discussing every plausible theory that could be conceived on the disparity that exists between races. However, I think the most qualified/best deserving should be hired/promoted regardless of race/gender/religion. It pisses me off to know that my kids will have to work extra hard to get scholarships because they aren't black/native american/mexican. Where is the equality in that? Because I worked hard and make a good living I should have to pay more for my kids education than let's say some black kid's parents (hypothetically) because they have no education, no skills, and no income. That's BS. To bring this full circle it bothers me to hear these people get on TV and say they aren't being helped because they are black. Well, statistically if you check the Uniform Crime Report, Social Security and Financial Support for furthering education that is the most helped race in America.

BTW, I'm not Irish American, I'm just good ol' American. ;)

H20skeefreek
09-06-2005, 05:00 AM
Being of African descent, I think we should stop this discussion before it goes south.









































































Just kidding. Unfortunately the argument over racial equality will never end b/c of such a fine balance between equality and special treatment which of course, equals inequality. Do I think that the race/poverty level was taken into account when planning this rescue effort? I sure hope not, but I don't know. The thing is, had it been a less poverty stricken area (whiter, unfortunately) more people would have evacuated and this wouldn't even be an argument.

Since all the human race can trace it's beginnings to Africa (by theory any way), why not start going by African American? When applying for financial aide for college, where does the burden of proof lie? Only in the color of skin?

BriEOD
09-06-2005, 06:57 AM
Actually Thomas (smart @$$!! :D ) I believe the first civilization was the Sumerians which is in the Middle East, present day Iraq. The Egyptians were like the 3rd civilization and that obviously is in Africa.

woody
09-06-2005, 07:35 AM
I heard somewhere the first man met the first woman and said "hey you got lovely eyes, fancy a beer?" in the Rift Valley.... in Africa. Oh, I'm English-Scots-Manx-Yorkshire-British by the way. People are people - chop someone in half and we all look the same. :)

bradamerry
09-06-2005, 08:30 AM
do you have "english -americans" :rolleyes:
me, me ,me ..... :popcorn:

H20skeefreek
09-06-2005, 03:39 PM
I heard somewhere the first man met the first woman and said "hey you got lovely eyes, fancy a beer?" in the Rift Valley.... in Africa. Oh, I'm English-Scots-Manx-Yorkshire-British by the way. People are people - chop someone in half and we all look the same. :)
did you ever hear what Jeffrey Dahmer said to Lorana Bobbit?....."you gonna eat that?"

OhioProstar
09-06-2005, 04:19 PM
I heard this on talk radio...but it makes a lot of sense to me.

If the democrates can bus the majority of these folks to the polling places on election day....why couldn't they bus them to safty in their time of need?

Ric
09-06-2005, 04:31 PM
milk I got that email too but it the "manmade" part was referring to the welfare state creating helplessness.
I agree there is going to be a lot of finger pointing...
I agree it is Ray Nagin's people that are raping, pilaging, blundering their city.
What I don't agree with is why it's taking so long to get anything done, these people are being turned back into the city at the checkpoint.
I've seen or heard about faster relief to Somalia, Afganistan, and other third world countries.

Can you imagine the grief, heartache, helplessness, turmoil these people are going through? I cannot.
I stood in the shower last night and cried, thanking my God that I have the luxury of cleaning myself, providing meals & water for my family and knowing where each one of my family members are!

I see the hurt and pain in these people's faces, I see the frustration in their hearts.
For some reason this disaster hits me harder than the September 11th. attack on the World Trade Centers. I don't know if it's the prolonged agony these people are facing, I don't know if it's the cluster*** that seems to be the relief effot in this situation, I just don't know.
Looting for food, water, clothes & shoes I can see... Looting for big screen TV's, Laptops, Jewelery, etc.... I cannot see. But, that is my opinion:o

I give Mayor Ray Nagin my best wishes and hope he can keep his sanity throughout all this. I know I would have probably run, hid and got my family to safety by now....but that's why I'm not the mayor. I'm selfish that way....my family comes first.
I've learned that since September 11th. Homeland Security took over a lot of FEMA's internal functions, and FEMA is therefore not able to function autonomously like they one did before the attacks. I've learned that The Red Cross is a civilian entity and cannot enter the city until it is delared "stabilized" and it cannot be stabilized until the bad guys are handled appropiately.

I read one statement that this (New Orleans) is not a natural disaster, it's a manmade disaster... it didn't just happen in 4 days, it happened over 4 decades. Katrina just brought the problem to light to show these people that they had erred in their building of the city. But the same could be said for the cities nead Mt. Saint Helens, the Bay Area Earthquake of 1989. But these people should have and probably did realized that their destruction was eminent. I think Molly Hatchet speaks of it best.... "Flirtin' With Disaster"
But even though they decided to build on shaky ground (sand from years of the Mississippi River silt deposits), they are still human beings.

Holland has an incredible drainage system in place, and one would think that their engineers should be consulted in the rebuilding of New Orleans, but their substrate is granite. (ok, that was left field)
I'm just all twisted emotionally.


I used to think that disasters were nature's way of poplulation control.... kinda like the way coyotes, wolves, and other preditors control overpopulation and disease by killing the weaker, diseased animals. "Survival of the Fittest, if you will", but then I helped take care of my Grandmother in her dieing years and that changed my views on that, but I still think it applies in some sense. (that was from right field)

Ric
09-06-2005, 05:03 PM
We have a real easy test for identifying those "english-americans".

We trick them into saying the word schedule.

sked yul = "real" american

shed yule = "english" american

:D
One other test is the way they spell labor day sizz :purplaugh

jimmer2880
09-07-2005, 07:20 AM
For what it's worth - I saw on TV last night (and you can believe everything on TV - right?) that the levy's are under local political control. Not the Army Corps of Engineers. Specifically - they said that each levy has it's own "council" so to speak (I can't remember the actual term for it). I too am tired of all these hypnenated americans. This country is made stronger by Americans being united.

shepherd
09-07-2005, 02:15 PM
I've been avoiding these "political" discussions, but thought you all might like to see this article regarding the "race card," written by a black newspaper columnist.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opinion/orl-porter605sep06,0,5947785.column?track=mostemailedl ink

jraben8
09-07-2005, 02:25 PM
I too try to stay as far away from political discussions as possible because I very seldom see any good come from them but my goodness, that was a refreshing article.

pilot02
09-07-2005, 02:41 PM
Did anybody hear the interview where there was a gentlement (some high up) saying that he didn't think that people should be prosecuted for the pilaging and looting that took place. He stated that if they were taking big screen TV's and laptops it was likely that they just wanted to trade them for food????

What are everyones opinions on this, should the looters be prosecuted???

:huh: :huh:

It should be handled like Ben Morris in Slidell is handling it. Anyone caught looting gets a $100k bond.

Ric
09-08-2005, 01:20 AM
still too early to point fingers in my opinion...

so whoever down there is pointing fingers suuuuurrrre makes me wonder

bigmac
09-08-2005, 08:12 AM
I heard this on talk radio...but it makes a lot of sense to me.

If the democrates can bus the majority of these folks to the polling places on election day....why couldn't they bus them to safty in their time of need?

Because by the time Mayor Nagin realized he'd need busses, they (all 500 of them) were underwater...

bigmac
09-08-2005, 08:15 AM
For what it's worth - I saw on TV last night (and you can believe everything on TV - right?) that the levy's are under local political control. Not the Army Corps of Engineers. Specifically - they said that each levy has it's own "council" so to speak (I can't remember the actual term for it). I too am tired of all these hypnenated americans. This country is made stronger by Americans being united.

For management of the levies, yes, local control. But those local groups have no ability to generate or spend money to upgrade the levies. That's funded by the feds, and any upgrades are managed and funded by the feds.

mgurley
09-08-2005, 08:40 AM
I've been avoiding these "political" discussions, but thought you all might like to see this article regarding the "race card," written by a black newspaper columnist.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opinion/orl-porter605sep06,0,5947785.column?track=mostemailedl ink



Great column! Very well put.

I know that Dauphin Island Alabama (predominitely white) is completely recked mind you and there has been very little assistance that has reached there yet. Some homes that have survived various hurricanes since the 40's and 50's fell victim to Katrinas massive storm surge.

I really doubt very seriously if any of us are able to grasp how vast this operation has to be in order to be effective. The logistics of such an undertaking are mind boggling.

John B
09-08-2005, 09:14 AM
For management of the levies, yes, local control. But those local groups have no ability to generate or spend money to upgrade the levies. That's funded by the feds, and any upgrades are managed and funded by the feds.

The way thing are going now (the assistance) looks like some the best that can ask for.
It was just late getting there.
If it was late getting to the people who needed it we will
find out later.
But what I think is the levies should had been fixed years ago.
Local, State, Feds, they should have been fixed.
If the Local gov.doesn't that care of thing.
The State gov. has too.
If the State gov. doesn't the Feds.have to step in.
That is way we call them "BIG BROTHER"
In the long run I think it is the Feds. that are at fault for the breaks in the levies, but the blame also fall on them all.

jimmer2880
09-08-2005, 11:53 AM
I have a hard time figuring out why I should pay for levies to protect an area where I didn't choose to live/work. That's the whole problem. People think - I'll build right next to the river. If I get flooded out - someone will help me.

sorry - but if you choose to put a business/house in an area that needs protected by a levie - then you should be ready to share the bill with everyone else in that area.

It's the people/business that needed to pony up the $$$'s for fixing the levies that kept their homes/business safe.

Granite_33
09-08-2005, 01:57 PM
For management of the levies, yes, local control. But those local groups have no ability to generate or spend money to upgrade the levies. That's funded by the feds, and any upgrades are managed and funded by the feds.


I cry BS at the top of my lungs!!.......... :rant:
BMac, do the state and city governments not have any culpability here??!!!??? LA and NO are two purely corrupt governments.
I did business with a company in NO that was a supplier to the city government........did business with him until he was busted in a sting operation because he was making payments to city officials.........
I asked him.....why?......he replied........evvvrybody does it!! He either did it or was left out.


Cue that good old Led Zep song........

If it keeps on rainin', levee's goin' to break, (X2)
When The Levee Breaks I'll have no place to stay.

Mean old levee taught me to weep and moan, (X2)
Got what it takes to make a mountain man leave his home,
Oh, well, oh, well, oh, well.

Don't it make you feel bad
When you're tryin' to find your way home,
You don't know which way to go?
If you're goin' down South
They go no work to do,
If you don't know about Chicago.

Cryin' won't help you, prayin' won't do you no good,
Now, cryin' won't help you, prayin' won't do you no good,
When the levee breaks, mama, you got to move.

All last night sat on the levee and moaned, (X2)
Thinkin' about me baby and my happy home.
Going, going to Chicago... Going to Chicago... Sorry but I can't take you...
Going down... going down now... going down....

Granite_33
09-08-2005, 01:59 PM
The way thing are going now (the assistance) looks like some the best that can ask for.
It was just late getting there.
If it was late getting to the people who needed it we will
find out later.
But what I think is the levies should had been fixed years ago.
Local, State, Feds, they should have been fixed.
If the Local gov.doesn't that care of thing.
The State gov. has too.
If the State gov. doesn't the Feds.have to step in.
That is way we call them "BIG BROTHER"
In the long run I think it is the Feds. that are at fault for the breaks in the levies, but the blame also fall on them all.


Uhhhhhhhh.........aint buying it. :noface:

maristarman
09-08-2005, 03:54 PM
Here's another interesting article that lays some things out....

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007219


Too bad Kanye didn't read this before he opened his big mouth.

shepherd
09-09-2005, 02:03 PM
Poor taste??? Yeah, but I can't resist :cool:

(I'm just forwarding it on...) :D

shepherd
09-09-2005, 02:05 PM
Cue that good old Led Zep song........
..

Thanks Granite. I had that song going through my head earlier this week.
It's back now... :cool:

Love that drum intro though !!! :headbang: