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Fab
08-28-2012, 06:08 PM
So after seeing a LOT of people building their own surfgate (go check on malibucrew or centurion forums), this stuff started growing on me...

My history... 08' X2, not the perfect surf boat as you know, actually i'm putting close to 2500lbs of ballast to get a wake as clean as possible...but that damn boat is so peaky i'm getting tired of leaning the boat to death...

As you may have seen, the surfgate is pretty easy, let's say just some sideways trim tabs...pretty big tabs, around 20-22"

Here is a pic from the stock surfgate from Malibu

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo311/jimmypooh24/TMC/IMG_20120812_114423.jpg

I'm planning to buy some lenco actuators, hinges, and build my own stainless steel tabs which will fit the X2 transom...

Before that winter project I wanted to test some prototypes to see if that stuff works on our MC, so i made my own surfgate that's currently mounted on the teak deck, check the attached images...As you can see it's pretty basics but holds very well, it's not intended to stay on the boat for sure but that was perfect for a little test...

Unfortunately I have no pics yet of the wake as i tested the system yesterday at dusk so it was too dark to shoot some good pics but i'll have soon !

What I found :

- It works VERY well, even with my tiny 17" tabs, I mounted it to the STB side so i rode on PTD
- The wake shape is TOTALLY different with a good lenght compared to anything I could get with my 2500lbs of ballast, and i was using only stock ballasts and 600lbs on PTD !!
- The tabs really delay the convergence of the wake, allowing the surfwake to roll over the delayed wake so it's not disturbed, that was the first time I could get a really clear lip on a X2
- What is the pressure on the tabs : around 80-100kgs (according to my experience and the bunch of guys who tried this like me)
- You have to slightly countersteer to compensate the gate effect...


I'll get some pics and vid ASAP, I was wondering of some of you guys tried this like me ??!

One thing is sure : next summer my X2 will be surfgate ready, I'm a true MC die hard but that Malibu system is and will be a game changer for sure !

ttu
08-28-2012, 06:16 PM
i look forward to seeing pictures of your install and wake!

brucemac
08-28-2012, 07:01 PM
ditto. keep us posted.

mcparadise
08-28-2012, 08:50 PM
Is any vendor making these yet?
I hope so and want this add-on.
Whoever does it is gonna make some cash.

scott023
08-28-2012, 11:18 PM
I want one tooooo

sand2snow22
08-29-2012, 12:01 AM
Is any vendor making these yet?
I hope so and want this add-on.
Whoever does it is gonna make some cash.

Or find themselves in litigation since Malibu has a patent pending. Not sure how mounting a trim tab vertically would hold up in court though?

curtish
08-29-2012, 12:39 AM
Wonder if the platform brackets are strong enough to handle the forces created by the tab? :popcorn:

ap77
08-29-2012, 02:41 AM
There are a lot of us trying to perfect the surf wave on the X2. I'm happy with the wave using 2500 of ballast, but if there is a better way...I want it! Let us know if your custom surf gate works - very cool!

Fab
08-29-2012, 05:09 AM
Well there are some guys on the malibucrew.com who plan to make a custom gate and want to sell their kit...but with a "patent pending" I fell this would be very risky to try selling it...

However bad point for Bu is that they don't sell a retrofit kit for their owners...there are some angry 2011-2012 owners for sure !!

that's a 3000$ option for malibu, my custom tabs should be around 1000-1500$...

For the bracket, my last protoype is strong enough but i'll use it only a few times to test, the first version I made was weak on some hinges and the water bent it in less than 10 seconds, but the platform held well...

From what I experimented and according to the guys on malibucrew, the water force on the gate is around 80kgs...That's not so much IMO...every lenco actuator can handle roughly 250-300kgs...

Biggest deal is to make the right custom tabs to fit the transom, the gate has to deploy at 30-40° with a slight inward angle

Cmpdman
08-29-2012, 05:59 AM
Wonder if the platform brackets are strong enough to handle the forces created by the tab? :popcorn:

My thoughts too.

carlsonwa
08-29-2012, 09:35 AM
subscribed.

Did you use plastic kitchen cutting boards for the tabs?

Fab
08-29-2012, 01:07 PM
Yup, cutting boards, basics but never break

My tab on the photo is small (17"L), i'm gonna try with a bigger one, the malibu surfgate is long in fact (22"L)

Sodar
08-29-2012, 01:09 PM
When it comes to the final version, get a piece of King Starboard. It machines like wood and should be perfect for your application.

thamax
08-30-2012, 10:32 AM
how u going to make it fit the back of your hull its not flat like the one pictured above. i know i am made some mock ups of cardboard and wood and think i have one just need to water test it . what is the actually size of the mu gate? 22" is the length right? looks like it tucks in flush when not in use are you going do the same to swim deck? i want to build one for my x-star i think it would awesome i have surf tabs and can make it all work just need to figure a what to make the gate out either king starboard or stainless which would be better and what lenco actuators and switch to go with cause u only want gate deployed at a time or has anyone tried both at once?

CantRepeat
08-30-2012, 10:39 AM
Anyone have a link to before and after waves using this thing?

BrooksfamX2
08-30-2012, 10:44 AM
how u going to make it fit the back of your hull its not flat like the one pictured above.

You may need to make a contoured mounting block that matches the transom and has a flat surface for mounting the tabs/gates..........

CantRepeat
08-30-2012, 11:06 AM
Here is a video of one and from I can see it doesn't do much of anything other then mess up the face of the wave.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hvNkFjGE7eo#!

Moreover, it seems the method of use is to weight the boat evenly and then deploy the gate on the opposite side that you want to surf on.

It doesn't look like a "game changer" to me. I think it will be just something to order like the surf tabs now and end up being a big waste of time and money.

XtwentyNot
08-30-2012, 11:42 AM
That's a horrible video!

swatguy
08-30-2012, 12:16 PM
I will say thy the mkz isn't known for being bu's surf machine either.

Will someone please surf goofy. Hahahahaha

Wakebrdr94
08-30-2012, 01:48 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP1_Pu2R9xY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Here is a video of it on the fly on just a vlx

CantRepeat
08-30-2012, 02:39 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP1_Pu2R9xY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Here is a video of it on the fly on just a vlx

Pretty much shows the same thing, weight the boat evenly across and then activate the gate to switch sides.

I don't think I have ever seen a boat makes its best wave while being weight evenly across the boat. That said, once you do weight it down more on one side then the other the gate would become useless.

I know Jason at wakemakers did some work on making a system that would pump water from one side of the boat to other while filling a sac which cut the time to go from goofy to normal side in half. I'm sure it would cost less to do something like that.

Good luck to whomever takes on this challenge.

Fab
08-30-2012, 02:42 PM
There's definitely something wrong with the MXZ with surfgate, with that spray ruining the wake, lot of reports from owners...that vid isnt really representative of the gate...and ***, long boards ??!!

That's right the X2 transom isnt flat and the easiest (for me) is to go for two customs stainless steel tabs...

About being a game changer...Well we sure need some more time and i think even malibu is going to Tweak their system a little...but even with my small prototypes i could create a better wake with twice less ballast after a few runs...on the other hand it took me a full season to dial the surf wake with standard ballast méthod.

CCAnderson
08-30-2012, 03:15 PM
Looks like the spray is created from water coming over top of the gate. That could be fixed with a taller gate. To install a taller gate the platform would have to be raised so the top of platform would remain flush with the top of the gate.

I see this as a safer way to create a surf wake that doesn't require weighting a boat so severely that the water is coming over the rub rail and gives riders more time on the water and less time ballasting the boat.

This looks to be very promising technology and like all tech there is always room for improvement. Think of it this way: How many of you add ballast to you bat because the factory engineered universal version needed "improvement"?

thamax
08-30-2012, 05:45 PM
yeah that video was shot down in burley and that is local mu dealer they have had about 6 or so come in on order they didn't have much ballast if any more like no ballast and the wedge down cause the back of the boat was way out of the water and that longboard is beyond me guess anything goes around here i've watched a couple other lsv and vtx and mxz and they do good with the gate deployed but not its any better then a new x-25 or rz4 or enzo, with just factory ballast, what about making the flap the same shape of the back of hull bottom hinge mounts prefect flat top hinge would be mount with a twist back at a 30 degree angle and it would be a very similar design maybe cut into the swim deck alittle so its flush mounted when not in use. also i don't think they are big enough on those boats maybe couple inches longer would do the trick 22" mu maybe 26" would be my idea

Fab
08-30-2012, 06:52 PM
Well i don't plan to modify my platform to leave some Space when tabs is closed. It Will come along the stock platform...Will just add some flat pieces on top of the tabs so it doesn't make a sharp where someone could be injures !

More than 22" tabs ? Well i guess malibu already tried this and if they didnt keep this solution...i'll just copy their tabs like the average moron !! :-)

Wakebrdr94
08-30-2012, 08:35 PM
I'm wondering if the tabs are proportionate to the boat. 22" for lsv, 20" for VLX. I'd have to imagine a one size fits all wouldn't work

thamax
09-01-2012, 04:08 PM
i got to look at 3 mu today all with surfgate and measured them and took a bunch of photos and understand the system alot better the actual quality isn't all that great basic stuff thats pretty much all off the shelf parts the gate is only thing they designed and built along with the swim deck. everything i've seen and have been told is that 22" is the length for all the surfgate system one size fits all wakesetters 21-24 ft boats

thamax
09-04-2012, 02:11 PM
I got my test gate out and ended up with a larger then 22" to make the wake better its a temp mounted to the swim platform and running a starboard surf tab at 60% down port all the way up 1/2 tank of fuel nobody but me in the boat and all ballast full my total system with 4 bags and 3 factory tanks is right 3300 lbs with 300 being lead weight in the x-star, zero boat lean! i had a buddy show later that day and i surfed it best wave i've ever rode period making some more changes on another test piece before i make the final gates and mount to the transom and it was depolyed at 35-40 degree angle worked the best speed is 12 mph

http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u379/thamax/85f9bbaa.jpg

ShawnB
09-04-2012, 11:55 PM
Hard to argue with that picture. Keep the updates coming!

sand2snow22
09-05-2012, 12:04 AM
Best surf wave I've seen on a Star! I have a customer here wanting to install on a MC. What are your thoughts on a vertical Lenco trim tab? How did the boat drive?

scott023
09-05-2012, 12:38 AM
Wow, that looks amazing.

brucemac
09-05-2012, 12:45 AM
wow, that is impressive. look forward to more updates.

thamax
09-05-2012, 01:44 AM
Best surf wave I've seen on a Star! I have a customer here wanting to install on a MC. What are your thoughts on a vertical Lenco trim tab? How did the boat drive?



tabs are Mounted so they retract 4" and go down about 6" at 100% the way mastercraft put them on the stars makes them worthless I left the blades in the the same location but changed the up and down angles to work right, tabs tune the edge of the wave it doesn't make it longer or taller. Boat handles the same it has more drag in reverse With them down otherwise u don't know they are there I will have info video and pics later this week

sand2snow22
09-05-2012, 02:09 AM
tabs are Mounted so they retract 4" and go down about 6" at 100% the way mastercraft put them on the stars makes them worthless I left the blades in the the same location but changed the up and down angles to work right, tabs tune the edge of the wave it doesn't make it longer or taller. Boat handles the same it has more drag in reverse With them down otherwise u don't know they are there I will have info video and pics later this week

I'm talking vertical trim plate like the surfgate, not the MC surf tabs....

thamax
09-05-2012, 02:24 AM
Well they don't make blades the size I wanted and the sharpness along with being vertical is a safety concern for me so I went a different route with lenco actuators, gates I am making and stainless hinges but to each his own. There is a slight counter steer while in motion otherwise a lot safer then having your boat half tipped over when retracted there no handling difference but I can steer the boat in neutral while adrift kind of cool

ttu
09-05-2012, 08:46 AM
great looking wake. can you post some pictures of the tabs mounted to your boat please.

aquaman
09-05-2012, 09:05 AM
That's impressive.

I wonder if altering the shape of the tab would affect the shape of the wave ?

thamax
09-05-2012, 10:37 PM
U are dead on there its a balance what works on mu didn't work on the star had to go bigger but it's a worth the trial and error I am on the 4th setup and it's a work in progress so I will have another teaser later this week I am kind of worried cause its somewhat copying a patent pending device so it's ok just Can't sell it right? Someone know more on this ?

MC209
09-05-2012, 10:53 PM
that is nasty!

ttu
09-05-2012, 11:11 PM
look forward to seeing pictures of the tabs mounted to the boat when you get a chance.

Fab
09-06-2012, 03:27 PM
Since you don't want to try to sell your custom system, don't worry about patent...

There are some guys on malibucrew that want to sell their system...but they'r going trough big problème IMO...

ttu
09-06-2012, 03:52 PM
okay, i went and looked at the malibucrew foruma and looked at some of the pictures and designs. look forward to seeing what thamax has come up with.

ShawnB
09-06-2012, 05:50 PM
If it's patented you aren't allowed to copy the idea even for your own use.*

*Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer but I do know how to use Google

Fab
09-06-2012, 06:14 PM
For a single person use...Well let's be serious...malibu won't give a **** !!

But for sure every attempt of any kind of public use ( on a forum?) would lead to some potential troubles!

snork
09-06-2012, 06:32 PM
just don't call it a surf gate
do you think wake tabs, trim tabs, jack plates, transom levelers and whatever else they're called are patented
thats like putting a patent on a dog collar and leash

sand2snow22
09-06-2012, 06:37 PM
If it's patented you aren't allowed to copy the idea even for your own use.*

*Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer but I do know how to use Google

Surfgate is NOT patented. It's patent pending :D

thamax
09-06-2012, 08:02 PM
That's what several people said talked with a patent lawyer today he said do not leave a electronic footprint of the item whether it be a picture or drawing so I am going to avoid the possibility of me getting sued over this and they have a patent # well its not in there name though just like the manual wedge is not patented but the power wedge is there some ways around this i am calling them surf flaps and working on a control switch right now so only one can be extend at a time a three way toggle is gonna be the ticket so wave transition is possible while in motion

992envy
10-08-2012, 12:23 AM
Any news with this? This article really excited me.

CantRepeat
10-08-2012, 07:32 AM
just don't call it a surf gate
do you think wake tabs, trim tabs, jack plates, transom levelers and whatever else they're called are patented
thats like putting a patent on a dog collar and leash

Patents are only good for 25 years. Trim tabs have been around that long and could of had a patent when they first came out.

jason@wakemakers.com
10-30-2012, 03:36 PM
I won't comment too much on the validity of patents, other than to say there is some inaccurate information being mentioned here. We've spent a considerable amount of time and resources lately to explore what a utility (the type that the SurfGate falls under) patent does and does not cover.

Hopefully we'll have some more exciting news shortly.

CantRepeat
10-30-2012, 05:33 PM
I won't comment too much on the validity of patents, other than to say there is some inaccurate information being mentioned here. We've spent a considerable amount of time and resources lately to explore what a utility (the type that the SurfGate falls under) patent does and does not cover.

Hopefully we'll have some more exciting news shortly.

Utility


In considering the requirement of utility for patents, there are three main factors to review: operability of the invention, a beneficial use of the invention, and practical use of the invention.

Seems like it would be very subjective to an examiner to say if invention fits all 3 or these.

BoulderX45
10-30-2012, 05:52 PM
I'm assuming someone can mold a product that mounts (clips on,wrap around) on the platform that you can just flip it over when its time to surf the other side. When you're done surfing you just clip it off to wakeboard.

thamax
10-31-2012, 11:41 AM
well whether i am wrong or right! still going to protect myself in every legal aspect possible but if wakemakers is going to start selling kits more power to them. what i built is very similar in function and all 3 factors mention above for utility of patents. whether it be gray area or totally clear is still pretty uncertain but if some can put this together and kept the price under 1k would be a hot seller cause all other wake enhancement out there just cost to much

jason@wakemakers.com
10-31-2012, 04:26 PM
Are you planning on selling them? If so I hope you have a VERY good patent attorney on retainer, and deep enough pockets to pay him to go up against Malibu's lawyers.

If you're not looking to make money, then don't worry about it.

mcparadise
10-31-2012, 08:58 PM
just don't call it a surf gate
do you think wake tabs, trim tabs, jack plates, transom levelers and whatever else they're called are patented
thats like putting a patent on a dog collar and leash

In the BU forum one name for such equipment is "poorman's gate." Fits me since I don't want to spend anything close to $1000.

KahunaCraft
10-31-2012, 09:53 PM
My thought is that the surf gate would need more proprietary technology. BU is a company that is trying to patent a common device, a trim tab. The only thing slightly different is the position (vertical). I'd argue that vertical trim tabs were invented by Sea-Doo and were used to help with steering on models dating back at least 5 years. 8610086101

KahunaCraft
10-31-2012, 10:38 PM
In case you're looking for it, trademark paperwork is here ...

http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=85631048&caseType=SERIAL_NO&searchType=documentSearch

HartlandX1
10-31-2012, 10:44 PM
Apple patented rectangles so anything is possible

KahunaCraft
10-31-2012, 10:48 PM
Yes, you've got a point there. The previous patent link was not the correct one, so I removed it.

CantRepeat
10-31-2012, 10:51 PM
Are you planning on selling them? If so I hope you have a VERY good patent attorney on retainer, and deep enough pockets to pay him to go up against Malibu's lawyers.

If you're not looking to make money, then don't worry about it.

tbh, Jason, the last thing I want to see when it comes to surf wakes is some company trying to patent anything. It will not advance the sport or the development in any way.

MIskier
10-31-2012, 11:03 PM
My thought is that the surf gate would need more proprietary technology. BU is a company that is trying to patent a common device, a trim tab. The only thing slightly different is the position (vertical). I'd argue that vertical trim tabs were invented by Sea-Doo and were used to help with steering on models dating back at least 5 years. 8610086101

...and before that they were experimented on full size ships to help with maneuvering. There are all sorts of crazy patents in the marine industry and it is fairly hard to enforce them. For example there are multiple patents for stepped hulls but no one is getting paid for their idea unless someone is using those Exact lines as a parent hull, and are honest and obtained them in a legitimate manner.

Point being that if its a blatant copy with no changes than 'Bu may be able to make something stick if they are willing to pursue legal action, but it may not be worth their time and effort.

sand2snow22
11-01-2012, 12:04 AM
My thought is that the surf gate would need more proprietary technology. BU is a company that is trying to patent a common device, a trim tab. The only thing slightly different is the position (vertical). I'd argue that vertical trim tabs were invented by Sea-Doo and were used to help with steering on models dating back at least 5 years. 8610086101

I ran across some repo'd SeaDoo's that look identical to that bottom picture. I've been meaning to post it on thebucrew.com stating that it's the OG surfgate! :)

sand2snow22
11-01-2012, 12:04 AM
...and before that they were experimented on full size ships to help with maneuvering. There are all sorts of crazy patents in the marine industry and it is fairly hard to enforce them. For example there are multiple patents for stepped hulls but no one is getting paid for their idea unless someone is using those Exact lines as a parent hull, and are honest and obtained them in a legitimate manner.

Point being that if its a blatant copy with no changes than 'Bu may be able to make something stick if they are willing to pursue legal action, but it may not be worth their time and effort.

Come on MI, MC have anything up their sleeve?????

sand2snow22
11-01-2012, 12:08 AM
..............

MIskier
11-01-2012, 12:16 AM
Come on MI, MC have anything up their sleeve?????

I honestly don't know, I haven't talked to anyone at the factory since early Sept. and surf gate didn't come up.

Honestly I think there are better developments to be made with the hull geometry to create an amazing surf wake. Surf gate is sort of a band aid, and a good add on for existing owners that want to improve the quality of their wake.

thamax
11-01-2012, 01:09 AM
I have no interest in selling something at all just made a comment on what could be a huge deal for people that want to make a great surf wake I try and avoid my attorney at all cost due to the price they charge just for advice. Manual gates could be done but wave transition wouldn't be possible so I guess it's a $700 project or a $100 but you have to switch it by hand

CantRepeat
11-01-2012, 07:12 AM
In case you're looking for it, trademark paperwork is here ...

http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=85631048&caseType=SERIAL_NO&searchType=documentSearch

Well, it looks like they have trademarked the name and the wave logo, not the "surf gate" itself.

aquaman
11-01-2012, 10:34 AM
It might be possible to simply add an additional platform bracket if needed ?

or

to re-enforce the single bracket.


Tabs make alot more sense than massive weight in the boat.

CantRepeat
11-02-2012, 07:54 AM
It might be possible to simply add an additional platform bracket if needed ?

or

to re-enforce the single bracket.


Tabs make alot more sense than massive weight in the boat.

But as MI pointed out, tabs don't really do that much for a surf wake.

Crafty Cracker
01-24-2013, 08:36 PM
Hey could you share with me your measurements- you said you had exact measurements or took many? Photos or anything helpful would be appreciated.Thank you.

scottsx2
05-05-2013, 08:57 PM
Any update? How's it working? Pics?