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View Full Version : PS197 wakes gettin abused


bbruzzese
07-21-2012, 09:40 PM
http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/5809/mastercraft-wake-again-this-year

Any of you guys frequent this forum? Can be a little biased sometimes but usually a pretty good crossection of users. If there's anybody back at MC headquarters that cares these are pretty common responses from skiers in our neck of the woods as well.

We happen to love our 197, frequently ski behind 196's, 200's (weekly) and only the occasional LXI and can honestly say in my opinion the difference is marginal...I guess I should consider myself thankful we happened to get one of the good hulls but alright already....RELEASE THE NEW HULL and shut these people up.

DooSPX
07-21-2012, 10:25 PM
I am on BOS, I have been visiting that thread as well...

east tx skier
07-21-2012, 11:24 PM
I'm on there, too. They (we) don't have a dog in the hunt. Just people voicing their opinions. No need to shut us up. ;)

MC has been saying for years that the 197 is second to none. So why change it, right? For the record, I think a lot of those same people liked the 2011 hull with a specific prop compliment.

Would love to see a revision, personally, but I still haven't skied the 200. So I am still just comparing it to the 196/SN(TSC).

lettmeknow
07-21-2012, 11:31 PM
I think the majority of the wake complaints are regarding slower speeds and longer line lengths. Specifically juniors and women.

macattack
07-22-2012, 11:08 AM
I'm also on BOS and it is frustrating to hear the "wake" bashing...if the 197 hull is the same from 2002 to 2012, then what changed to make the wake worse "all of the sudden" at longer line lengths and slower speeds? We didn't hear these wake complaints between 2002 and 2010? Yes, the SN200 wake is pretty flat, so maybe it's just a new comparison to that boat/wake when it was introduced 2 years ago? I've skied behind the top 3 and the wakes are all different depending on engine, prop, crew weight, etc; of course, that's at 34 mph. Bottomline, stay on edge through both wakes and soft knees! mac

east tx skier
07-22-2012, 11:53 AM
I'm also on BOS and it is frustrating to hear the "wake" bashing...if the 197 hull is the same from 2002 to 2012, then what changed to make the wake worse "all of the sudden" at longer line lengths and slower speeds? We didn't hear these wake complaints between 2002 and 2010? Yes, the SN200 wake is pretty flat, so maybe it's just a new comparison to that boat/wake when it was introduced 2 years ago? I've skied behind the top 3 and the wakes are all different depending on engine, prop, crew weight, etc; of course, that's at 34 mph. Bottomline, stay on edge through both wakes and soft knees! mac

Hook became standard in 2003. New rudder in 2006. Purportedly, some unadvertised bow weight loss in 2008. That interesting bullet strut in 2011. Yes, the hull is technically the same. But the boat has changed over the years and different year models don't necessarily ski the same. I'm a long line slower speed skier. Suffice it to say that the 197 isn't designed for longliners and slow goers. But most of us will never see 38 off. Nonetheless, I enjoy skiing behind it very much when I have the opportunity. That's not to say I don't have my preferences, but complaining about getting to ski behind a high end ski boat like the 197 at my level is a bit ridiculous. I think the people that had the most to say on the subject over at BOS are the tournament types if I recall correctly. But I could be wrong.

Don't sweat it. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. It's a great boat.

lettmeknow
07-22-2012, 12:08 PM
From what's been said ,MC has like 5 different molds for the 197 and they are not exactly the same. Also engine size , make and placement has been discussed to make a difference. So even though they are technically the same some are better than others even within the same model year.

east tx skier
07-22-2012, 01:46 PM
I doubt that is so uncommon in the boating industry. A friend of mine told me the other day that the wake behind my boat is loads better than another person's with whom he skis 2000 SN. Same hull, same motor, same transmission, but they ski differently.

These boats are largely hand built. It's amazing two of the same model are as similar as they are.

macattack
07-22-2012, 07:12 PM
Hook became standard in 2003. New rudder in 2006. Purportedly, some unadvertised bow weight loss in 2008. That interesting bullet strut in 2011. Yes, the hull is technically the same. But the boat has changed over the years and different year models don't necessarily ski the same. I'm a long line slower speed skier. Suffice it to say that the 197 isn't designed for longliners and slow goers. But most of us will never see 38 off. Nonetheless, I enjoy skiing behind it very much when I have the opportunity. That's not to say I don't have my preferences, but complaining about getting to ski behind a high end ski boat like the 197 at my level is a bit ridiculous. I think the people that had the most to say on the subject over at BOS are the tournament types if I recall correctly. But I could be wrong.

Don't sweat it. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. It's a great boat.

Eastie: Hadn't heard about the 2008 "unadvertised" weight loss/diet:)...that's an interesting one; especially, since most of the TTs used in tournaments are using some wt in the bow to help flatten the wake...not sure what rope length/speed the bow wts affect?

You would think in this era of technology marvels all molds would be identical!

Ref BOS, true, most of the folks complaining are tournament skiers at longer lines lengths and slower speeds.

No matter what people say, I still love my 2005 TT:D mac

PS: Just to highlight the differences btwn diff engines, I skied in 2 tournaments in the last month at the same lake, same B2 setting, both behind the SN200...first SN200 was a 6.0L, the 2d SN200 was a 5.7L...amazingly, a big difference in the feel of the pull...the 6.0 was a lot softer pull than 5.7; apparently, the 6.0 is running 300 or so rpms slower than the 5.7. So, it doesn't take much to change the characteristics of a boat!

east tx skier
07-22-2012, 09:53 PM
I have heard a lot of people tying weight to the underside of the lifting ring. I tried it in my 98 SN and absolutely hated it. Wake seemed unaffected by 60+ lbs of weight and it plowed a idle speeds and was hard to steer. Got rid of it. Wasn't necessary.

With the amp, sub, and misc. gear in my bow, I may have enough weight up there.

Jeff Lyman
07-22-2012, 10:34 PM
Was wondering how long it would take for you guys to chime in to see who trolled BOS on the MC wake issue. For what its worth I learned years ago from dealing with offshore hulls it was very critical how long the boat was left in the mold to keep its true shape. Fiberglass moves as it cures i learned. So its very hard for me to believe that every boat MC or other is identical in every way. As we all know simple changes as props, stuts makes diffrences so a 1\16 in the gel could easly do the same!

I agree with one of the skiers on BOS dont just test drive that new boat ski the dam thing to!

captain planet
07-22-2012, 10:56 PM
From what's been said ,MC has like 5 different molds for the 197 and they are not exactly the same. Also engine size , make and placement has been discussed to make a difference. So even though they are technically the same some are better than others even within the same model year.

Can you elaborate on this please? Specifically the placement discussion.

east tx skier
07-22-2012, 11:28 PM
Was wondering how long it would take for you guys to chime in to see who trolled BOS on the MC wake issue. For what its worth I learned years ago from dealing with offshore hulls it was very critical how long the boat was left in the mold to keep its true shape. Fiberglass moves as it cures i learned. So its very hard for me to believe that every boat MC or other is identical in every way. As we all know simple changes as props, stuts makes diffrences so a 1\16 in the gel could easly do the same!

I agree with one of the skiers on BOS dont just test drive that new boat ski the dam thing to!

I don't know that anyone is trolling. From your "test drive each one" it sounds like you already read the thread, but the most recent thread was from someone who skied behind the exact same boat at separate tournaments and was commenting that the wake was good the first time, but really rough the second time. Same boat, engine, prop, etc. both times.

Pretty strange.

Jeff Lyman
07-23-2012, 10:52 PM
Ya trolling is a new word picked up from my kids. Wow the kids (teens) are influencing me..........oh no!

I read that about the diff wakes same boat. Im starting to think the water conditions effect the wake some to. After much testing and paying attention with my new wake plate flat water vs. rippled water seems to change things to. I do plan to move up to a newer 197 and never would hand over the cash without skiing first. A friend had a 2002 regular 197 and the wake was like climbing a mountian. The boats long gone thankfully.

Kyle
07-24-2012, 02:48 AM
I bet the complainers don't run short line or even into -32.

I like the 197 hull. There is nothing wrong with it.

People start blaming the boat, fast water, slow water, the ski, the bindings, their life vest, gloves, the handle, the rope stretched more this time, the driver...., blah blah blah. In reality they need to STFU, ski, and blame their own performance instead of something else.

I have a saying that I tell people that start with lame A$$ excuses.


"Excuses only satisfy those who make them"

MIskier
07-24-2012, 08:33 AM
I don't know that anyone is trolling. From your "test drive each one" it sounds like you already read the thread, but the most recent thread was from someone who skied behind the exact same boat at separate tournaments and was commenting that the wake was good the first time, but really rough the second time. Same boat, engine, prop, etc. both times.

Pretty strange.

Water depth can play a big role in the wake charicteristics of a craft. There is alot of research pertaining to how larger planning craft react to changes in water depth and some of the noted changes are suprising.

As far as cure time and molds...cure time is a critical part of producing a good quality part, and it is something that is regulated pretty well at MC. As far as the molds being somewhat different, this is very possible. While the plugs are CNC machined that are hand finished before the mold is made off from it this opens up the possiblity for differences between parts, and so does the fact that no two boats are the same as far as gel thickness and amount of resin used. They should all be close, but as someone said little changes make big differences.

...maybe MC should start offering blueprinted hulls like the offshore industry $$$

BGcraft
07-24-2012, 08:51 AM
Water depth can play a big role in the wake charicteristics of a craft. There is alot of research pertaining to how larger planning craft react to changes in water depth and some of the noted changes are suprising.

As far as cure time and molds...cure time is a critical part of producing a good quality part, and it is something that is regulated pretty well at MC. As far as the molds being somewhat different, this is very possible. While the plugs are CNC machined that are hand finished before the mold is made off from it this opens up the possiblity for differences between parts, and so does the fact that no two boats are the same as far as gel thickness and amount of resin used. They should all be close, but as someone said little changes make big differences.

...maybe MC should start offering blueprinted hulls like the offshore industry $$$

Makes sense...more $$$ and puts the hulls even further out of reach for an already alienated customer base.

MIskier
07-24-2012, 06:18 PM
Makes sense...more $$$ and puts the hulls even further out of reach for an already alienated customer base.

forgot the :rolleyes:

bstrom-tt
07-24-2012, 06:30 PM
Having been a Mastercraft promo owner 7 years, I can attest to the fact that the 197 is a great boat! I also can state with confidence that the slow speed long line wake is not up to par with the other brands. My kids would literally catch air and totally miss the second wake because they launched off the 1st wake. My son got fairly good at this, my daughter, not so much.
Tha BOS folks may be biased... The Mastercraft folks may also be biased towards there brand.
Just one former Mastercraft owners opinion.

sethro
07-24-2012, 10:55 PM
One thing is for certain, and something I always say when somebody asks how good a particular wake is on a direct drive inboard....

The wake will not be the limiting factor in your skiing.

93Prostar190
07-24-2012, 11:06 PM
One thing is for certain, and something I always say when somebody asks how good a particular wake is on a direct drive inboard....

The wake will not be the limiting factor in your skiing.

I totally agree.

jason95gt
07-25-2012, 01:04 PM
Ilmor motors with an OJ prop is another factor. We run an ACME and the wake, along with many other advantages, is much softer and easier to ski. If only the TT boats could be approved with this prop, there would be a different feeling of the boats.

shepherd
07-25-2012, 07:19 PM
I bet the complainers don't run short line or even into -32.

I like the 197 hull. There is nothing wrong with it.

People start blaming the boat, fast water, slow water, the ski, the bindings, their life vest, gloves, the handle, the rope stretched more this time, the driver...., blah blah blah. In reality they need to STFU, ski, and blame their own performance instead of something else.

I have a saying that I tell people that start with lame A$$ excuses.


"Excuses only satisfy those who make them"

I agree. I only run -28, sometimes -32, and can't really say one boat's wake makes a difference to my buoy count than another's. I DID notice a difference in the pull with engine size: The boat with bigger engine and zero off seemed to give a softer pull than the one with the smaller engine and zero off.

east tx skier
07-25-2012, 07:50 PM
I bet the complainers don't run short line or even into -32.

I like the 197 hull. There is nothing wrong with it.

People start blaming the boat, fast water, slow water, the ski, the bindings, their life vest, gloves, the handle, the rope stretched more this time, the driver...., blah blah blah. In reality they need to STFU, ski, and blame their own performance instead of something else.

I have a saying that I tell people that start with lame A$$ excuses.


"Excuses only satisfy those who make them"

I like it fine as well. But the "complainers" on BOS are a mix of shortliners, tournament skiers, long liners and shortliners with kids. I have been on that forum for a while and they are less blinded by brand loyalty than you would expect---certainly less brand loyal than posts you might find on any of the boat forums obviously. They are not all Nautique owners. Far from it. They are people who, by and large, ski a variety of the latest and greatest hulls and notice things like this.

I'm a longliner and not ashamed to say it. There are more longliners out there than shortliners. Sure, these boats are built to pull world records than neither you nor I will ever sniff. But I frankly don't care if a boat has a buttery soft wake a 38 off if it's got a launch ramp at 15 off. We have the technology available to have it all. And for the price of these boats or the cost of entering a tournament, I can understand someone noticing if things aren't up to their standards at the end of the rope. I know the boat companies want to market boats to more than the 1.875% of the water sports enthusiasts than can run up into shortline.

Yeah, yeah, "stay on edge." I'll tell you, I stay on edge and am not bothered by most long line wakes. But even staying on edge isn't enough some times, particularly at slower speeds. There are a couple of boats that I ski behind occasionally that I have to bump the speed four miles an hour and prepare to have my knees in my chest when I cross the wake. And I'm on edge. Even with these less than world class wakes, I'm all smiles. But to say I didn't have a preference would be disingenuous.

And I wouldn't say that my noticing the difference or my having a preference amounts to complaining or making excuses either. But I'm not taking a side in this debate or saying that some of the criticisms aren't based on some valid factual observations either. I don't have a Kool-Aid preference. I'm happy to ski behind whatever someone has that is willing to pull me. Does a 197 have as smooth of a long line wake at speeds below 34 as my 14 year old Ski Nautique? In my opinion, no. Am I anything but thrilled when my friend brings his 2010 197 TT when we ski. No way! It's an absolutely wonderful boat and I ski very well behind it, even at the slow speeds about which some people complain. I know he feels the same about my boat because he raves about it every time we ski.

Truth be told, it was probably water depth that spawned the latest bout of what the fark happened with the wake behind this exact same boat that was fine last time." But it could be any number of factors.

Of course, my thoughts on the subject don't stem from how many buoys I pick up or whether I ski better behind one boat compared to the other. I'm just happy to be skiing. So in my mind, there's nothing wrong with comparing boats and wakes. For me, that's part of the fun of skiing behind some strange.

east tx skier
07-26-2012, 12:48 PM
Bump for a more thorough, edited reply.