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RickDV
08-26-2005, 11:28 PM
The last few outtings I have had a couple of times when the starter made an unusual grinding noise for several seconds. I backed off on the key and tried agin and it started up. The engine has always cranked a little bit longer (~5 seconds) than other MCs I am familiar with.

How likely is it that I have a starter going out? Is there anything I can do to check it out for sure? How hard is it to replace the starter?

BTW - I have a 1990 ProStar 190 with a 351 Indmar.

BTW2 - I usually stop the engine when changing skiers. I believe the previous (original) owner did the same. After 15 years of this "abuse" on the starter I suppose this could be expected.

Workin' 4 Toys
08-27-2005, 12:28 AM
The last few outtings I have had a couple of times when the starter made an unusual grinding noise for several seconds. I backed off on the key and tried agin and it started up. The engine has always cranked a little bit longer (~5 seconds) than other MCs I am familiar with.

How likely is it that I have a starter going out? Is there anything I can do to check it out for sure? How hard is it to replace the starter?

BTW - I have a 1990 ProStar 190 with a 351 Indmar.

BTW2 - I usually stop the engine when changing skiers. I believe the previous (original) owner did the same. After 15 years of this "abuse" on the starter I suppose this could be expected.
I do believe the starter on your boat requires shims. If they are not properly set, it could create excesss stress on the gears. It sounds like it might be adjusted to tight. Just my 2 cents.

PendO
08-28-2005, 12:57 PM
BUMP ..................... I'd vote new starter, but I'm not a mechanic, guys, does the grinding/zinging inidicate a solenoid is not "popping" out to turn a flywheel (is that even what it is called) to crank the engine over ....

try this link for testing / replacing

http://www.carcentral.net/content/guides/HowToReplaceAStarter.php


http://autorepair.about.com/cs/doityourself/a/aa072801a.htm

The last few outtings I have had a couple of times when the starter made an unusual grinding noise for several seconds. I backed off on the key and tried agin and it started up. The engine has always cranked a little bit longer (~5 seconds) than other MCs I am familiar with.

How likely is it that I have a starter going out? Is there anything I can do to check it out for sure? How hard is it to replace the starter?

BTW - I have a 1990 ProStar 190 with a 351 Indmar.

BTW2 - I usually stop the engine when changing skiers. I believe the previous (original) owner did the same. After 15 years of this "abuse" on the starter I suppose this could be expected.

shepherd
08-28-2005, 03:42 PM
BUMP ..................... I'd vote new starter, but I'm not a mechanic, guys, does the grinding/zinging inidicate a solenoid is not "popping" out to turn a flywheel (is that even what it is called) to crank the engine over ....


I'm not a mechanic either, but I believe when the starter gear is not popping out to engage the flywheel, you just hear a single "click" when you turn the key. Usually, you can cure that by tapping on the starter housing with a hammer or wrench to jar it free. But that doesn't sound like Rick's problem.

I just replaced my starter yesterday -- also a 1990 PS 190. Very very easy job. Just two bolts to mount it up, and another bolt/screw to attach the wire. Maybe one hour total, at most, to remove and replace. The starter is a remanufactured one that I got from a local marine parts store for $130.

Good luck...

RickDV
08-28-2005, 04:08 PM
I'm not a mechanic either, but I believe when the starter gear is not popping out to engage the flywheel, you just hear a single "click" when you turn the key. Usually, you can cure that by tapping on the starter housing with a hammer or wrench to jar it free. But that doesn't sound like Rick's problem.

I just replaced my starter yesterday -- also a 1990 PS 190. Very very easy job. Just two bolts to mount it up, and another bolt/screw to attach the wire. Maybe one hour total, at most, to remove and replace. The starter is a remanufactured one that I got from a local marine parts store for $130.

Good luck...

It is definitely not the click-click-clink problem. It is a grinding sound. When you replaced your starter did you come across the shims that Workin' 4 Toys mentioned?

Thanks for your help.

bigmac
08-28-2005, 05:12 PM
It is definitely not the click-click-clink problem. It is a grinding sound. When you replaced your starter did you come across the shims that Workin' 4 Toys mentioned?

Thanks for your help.


The grinding sound is the starter pinion gear grinding on the ring gear of the flywheel. That means the two aren't engaging properly. The question is why it's doing that. The bad engagement can be due to the solenoid not advancing the gear far enough forward to fully engage the flywheel ring gear, which in turn can be due to a bad solenoid, or a bad pinion gear shaft, or a poorly-or-never lubricated gear/shaft. Usually, on and engine as old as yours, it's bad gears. In any of these events, the starter needs to be replaced.

Whichever, replacing the starter is relatively cheap and easy, while replacing the ring gear is not. Besides, A GM short block with a typical 14 inch flywheel has 168 teeth on the starter ring gear (don't know about Ford) while a starter pinion gear may only have 12 or so, so the burden is more likely to be on the pinion gear as being the bad one.

So, I'd just go ahead and replace the starter. Pay attention to its alignment. If the ring gear is indeed worn, you might be able to get around that by shimming the starter for a tighter engagement. I wouldn't even mess around with trying to shim your current starter. Persisting in using a starter by trying to get away with shims while the real problem is a really worn pinion (as your probably is) is certainly asking for flywheel/flexplate trouble.

RickDV
08-28-2005, 10:18 PM
The grinding sound is the starter pinion gear grinding on the ring gear of the flywheel. That means the two aren't engaging properly. The question is why it's doing that. The bad engagement can be due to the solenoid not advancing the gear far enough forward to fully engage the flywheel ring gear, which in turn can be due to a bad solenoid, or a bad pinion gear shaft, or a poorly-or-never lubricated gear/shaft. Usually, on and engine as old as yours, it's bad gears. In any of these events, the starter needs to be replaced.

Whichever, replacing the starter is relatively cheap and easy, while replacing the ring gear is not. Besides, A GM short block with a typical 14 inch flywheel has 168 teeth on the starter ring gear (don't know about Ford) while a starter pinion gear may only have 12 or so, so the burden is more likely to be on the pinion gear as being the bad one.

So, I'd just go ahead and replace the starter. Pay attention to its alignment. If the ring gear is indeed worn, you might be able to get around that by shimming the starter for a tighter engagement. I wouldn't even mess around with trying to shim your current starter. Persisting in using a starter by trying to get away with shims while the real problem is a really worn pinion (as your probably is) is certainly asking for flywheel/flexplate trouble.

Sounds like you know much more about this than I do. I will replace the starter and post the results. Hey, if I remember I will document the installation with pics.

Thanks a bunch!

bigmac
08-28-2005, 11:06 PM
Sounds like you know much more about this than I do. I will replace the starter and post the results. Hey, if I remember I will document the installation with pics.

Thanks a bunch!I used to be a MOPAR mechanic (long, long ago). The intermittent grind-pause-engage you related is pretty classic. I had a 69 Roadrunner years ago, I must have put 3 starters in the silly thing in 2 years. I'd be interested to see a nice closeup of your pinion gear when you get it out.

shepherd
08-28-2005, 11:33 PM
It is definitely not the click-click-clink problem. It is a grinding sound. When you replaced your starter did you come across the shims that Workin' 4 Toys mentioned?

Thanks for your help.

No, I didn't see any shims. It bolted onto a flat surface as far as I could tell. Again, and like BigMac says, replacing your starter is quick, easy and relatively cheap. Hopefully, that will solve your problem.

My old starter looked really old -- I never replaced it in the 10 years I've owned the boat and I never lubed it like I should have occasionally. I figure that's why I had the starter sticking problem.

rektek
08-30-2005, 09:20 PM
I would agree with Bigmac, sounds like starter issues, I'll add a few comments though, I have never seen a ford starter with shims and not all starters are created equal, stay away from kragen rebuilt starter motors, it'd be better to have yours rebuilt by a quality rebuilder, tell them it's for marine use, or get a exchange unit that's built for marine use.

also while the flywheel/flexplates in engines have many teeth, engines typically will stop in 1 of 4 spots every single time depending on number of cylinders, I'm sure there are many teeth that never get touched.
so when you have the starter out,[battery disconnected] turn the engine over by hand 360* and inspect the flywheel teeth for damage.

good luck,
cheers

bigmac
08-30-2005, 09:45 PM
also while the flywheel/flexplates in engines have many teeth, engines typically will stop in 1 of 4 spots every single time depending on number of cylinders, I'm sure there are many teeth that never get touched.
so when you have the starter out,[battery disconnected] turn the engine over by hand 360* and inspect the flywheel teeth for damage.

good luck,
cheers

Whoah! Excellent point. I forgot about that....

wesgardner
08-31-2005, 09:00 AM
Hey Rick,

While you're there, make sure the mating surfaces where the starter mounts are good and clean (take sand paper to the new one) - this will provide good electrical contact for the negative side of the electrical "equation". Also insure the wire from your key switch to the "S" terminal on the solenoid is GOOD - doesn't sound as if this is your issue, but hey, while you're there....

Wes

torbmi
08-31-2005, 02:08 PM
My two cents - several people on this board w/boats of that era have had some issues with the stock starter. They discontinued it around '92 or so with a resdesigned one. The starter is a plunger design that had problems. Since yours has lasted this long, it's obviously been ok, but simply having it rebuilt (or buying a similar reconditioned one) might bring out some of its nastier traits that have been hidden for the last 15-20 years. I know, because it happened to me. $100 down the tube to the rebuilder. The solution was to suck it up, and pay the $199 to skidim and get the new replacement they carry. It draws fewer amps, is a lot stronger, and fires the engine right up - even after running the stereo for a long time, which my old starter could never do. Again, my two cents. Good luck whichever route you go.