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jmhjgh
07-13-2012, 10:21 PM
I posted last year about our 96 PS205 having issues with surging. The boat is up north and is not used much. We had codes for TPS sensor and that has been replaced. The boat now does not throw any codes. Last year the boat would run perfect up to 3200 rpm and then surge. We could pull the kids skiing and tubing but not adults who wanted to ski faster than 30. Now, the boat will rev up to full throttle, but will cough for a second before it settles down (almost like turning engine switch off/on). Pulling a skier, the boat will cough every 10-15 seconds in an irregular pattern. The fuel pump inlet is clean, and I replaced the fuel filter today. I am wondering about a fuel line leak or sucking air somewhere (I will check the intake manifold tomorrow). The shut-off valve on the top of the tank does not feel good opening or closing and I wonder if it should be removed/cleaned/replaced?
Also, coming off plane, the engine does not immediately go to idle speeds. It wants to rev at 1500-2000 before settling down to idle in 15 seconds. What else should I check?

mikeg205
07-14-2012, 09:45 AM
Check the fuel vent in back to make sure its clear...friend had a cocoon in there... and was causing a suction issue. Is the spark(flame) arrestor clean?

How old is the gas? What do the plugs look like? Take a look at the distributor and rotor to make sure it's not fouled...

my .02....

jmhjgh
07-15-2012, 12:08 PM
fuel vent is clear and we ran without flame arrestor. Watched both fuel injectors cut out when it coughs. I think I need to buy a fuel pressure gauge.

mikeg205
07-15-2012, 12:15 PM
TBI? maybe fuel pump connection is loose...or fuel pump starting to give you warning signals. Not a tough replacement... just a thought. TBI pressure is low... fuel cutting out is a different issue...could be also a bad ECT - does it do it when it's cold? JimN and Jmcrieght would have better insight than I.

jmhjgh
07-15-2012, 10:42 PM
Yes, TBI. Pump connection looks good. I tried to put my meter on the pump leads to see if the pump voltage is also cutting out, but there isn't much room. I might need to make an extension. ECT should be good, and if it wasn't, the limp mode should only be cutting out one injector not both. It seems like I am missing something easy. I checked the distributor voltage (purple/white wire) and it stayed around 1.5-1.7VDC and when it coughed, it looked like the voltage went up to around 2 VDC, but it never went away.

Double D
07-15-2012, 11:25 PM
My only addition to this is do not ignore the ECM or computer. My Engine surged a bunch after 20 minutes of use and viewing the injectors the fuel would sputter on one. It proved out to be the injector driver in the computer was bad. I currently run both injectors off one driver and it's fine. If this ends up being the problem and both injectors are sputtering, then a computer replacement would be in order.

My $0.02....


Sent from my wife's old iPad using Tapatalk....

jmhjgh
07-16-2012, 09:54 AM
I remember reading your post a while ago. I would like to be able to confirm the ECM is bad before replacing. I was able to borrow a marine scanner and all seems to be in order electrically, but I am not sure what is happening when the injectors cut-out. It does seem to be changing because last fall, the engine would run perfect to around 3000 rpm, and now we get the injectors cutting out anywhere in the power band.

Double D
07-16-2012, 10:22 AM
I remember reading your post a while ago. I would like to be able to confirm the ECM is bad before replacing. I was able to borrow a marine scanner and all seems to be in order electrically, but I am not sure what is happening when the injectors cut-out. It does seem to be changing because last fall, the engine would run perfect to around 3000 rpm, and now we get the injectors cutting out anywhere in the power band.

Agree 100% about confirming computer is bad before you drop ~$800 on a new one. However, I am not sure how you do that since both your injectors are sputtering. My advantage was only one was sputtering and I could switch the lines to confirm it wasn't an injector, etc. Good Luck!!

jmhjgh
07-17-2012, 12:24 PM
Do you think a bad fuel line could stop both injectors temporarily? I would think bad lines would slowly slow the boat, and not behave like someone is turning the ignition off and on. I need to tow the boat home so we can run some more tests.

Stx221
07-17-2012, 01:38 PM
Another thing to look into:
What does the oil pressure gauge look like when under way? Is it all over the place, or does it get up to about 30psi at idle and 55-60psi under load?
If it bounces all over the place, I recommend a new oil pressure sending unit. I know I was having a similar issue with the fuel pump power being cut on and off and it was due to the ECM "seeing" low oil pressure due to a faulty sending unit.

JimN
07-17-2012, 01:50 PM
Do you think a bad fuel line could stop both injectors temporarily? I would think bad lines would slowly slow the boat, and not behave like someone is turning the ignition off and on. I need to tow the boat home so we can run some more tests.

Did you check the fuel pressure? Do it at Key ON/Engine OFF, Idle, 2000 RPM and WOT. These are the recommendations from Indmar and MC. If you watch the gauge as you pass through the 3200 RPM area, it's probably dropping and this is most commonly caused by carpet fivers or other contaminants in the fuel pump screen, at the pump inlet. You don't need the boat at home for this but you can't do this on the trailer- it needs to be in the water, under normal load.

jmhjgh
07-17-2012, 03:48 PM
Fuel pressure check is on my list. I do not currently own a fuel pressure gauge. I removed the pump last fall before winterizing, and the pump inlet was clean (also installed a new filter upstream of the pump). The manual valve at the tank does not have a good feel moving open to close and I probably should remove and inspect, but it doesn't seem like that would cause both injectors to drop out.

jmhjgh
07-17-2012, 03:53 PM
If I were to purchase this gauge:
http://www.amazon.com/Actron-CP7817-Throttle-Injection-Pressure/dp/B0006V2BK0/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1342554736&sr=8-3&keywords=actron+fuel+pressure+tester

Where exactly is this hooked up on my 96 Indmar TBI with no schraeder vavle on the fuel rail?

JimN
07-17-2012, 06:15 PM
If I were to purchase this gauge:
http://www.amazon.com/Actron-CP7817-Throttle-Injection-Pressure/dp/B0006V2BK0/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1342554736&sr=8-3&keywords=actron+fuel+pressure+tester

Where exactly is this hooked up on my 96 Indmar TBI with no schraeder vavle on the fuel rail?

You can get the same gauge at Autozone or Sears. I have the same one. It also lets you take a fuel sample, using the bleeder valve and the clear tubing.

Look at the fuel line going to the throttle body- you should see a black cap on a Shrader valve, which is just like a tire valve, on the hard fuel line (I did see that you didn't see one). Don't put the gauge on while it's running and if you put it on immediately after shutting it off, put a paper towel over the valve and release the pressure- gas will squirt out.

Where in the Midwest are you?

jmhjgh
07-18-2012, 09:55 AM
I am in Minneapolis, Mn. I looked through the on-line Actron Manual, and I think I need to go in-line between the fuel filter and the fuel line to the TBI. I do not have a Shrader valve, but I will look again to make sure.

JimN
07-18-2012, 11:09 AM
I am in Minneapolis, Mn. I looked through the on-line Actron Manual, and I think I need to go in-line between the fuel filter and the fuel line to the TBI. I do not have a Shrader valve, but I will look again to make sure.

Call the nearest dealer- if they have been an MC dealer for a long time, they might (should) have an adapter to connect inline with the fuel line, for measuring the pressure while it's running. I have one, but I'm in MKE. Otherwise, if you decide to buy one, OTC (Owatonna Tool Company) sells one. It has to be the type that works with double O-ring connections.

jmhjgh
07-20-2012, 06:46 PM
New development: while out troubleshooting the boat, engine would not restart because of dead battery. Alternator was not charging. Brought it in to a rebuild shop and condenser strap broke and it took out the rotor and wiring (also burnt insulation and damaged rectifier). I am wondering if last year, it may have been overcharging at times, and this year we were seeing weird voltage spikes that would explain both injectors cutting out. Anyone think the alternator will fix my problem? Family reunion in 2 weeks, but I was not planning to drive 3 hours north to try the boat before the reunion.

Jim, I saw your note on another thread about silver soldering in a schraeder valve on a new fuel filter. Good idea, are the materials compatible? I think a co-worked has a gauge I could use if I had a schraeder valve. I think I should still check this, but I am wondering if my hopes should not be so high about the alternator?

JimN
07-20-2012, 07:35 PM
New development: while out troubleshooting the boat, engine would not restart because of dead battery. Alternator was not charging. Brought it in to a rebuild shop and condenser strap broke and it took out the rotor and wiring (also burnt insulation and damaged rectifier). I am wondering if last year, it may have been overcharging at times, and this year we were seeing weird voltage spikes that would explain both injectors cutting out. Anyone think the alternator will fix my problem? Family reunion in 2 weeks, but I was not planning to drive 3 hours north to try the boat before the reunion.

Jim, I saw your note on another thread about silver soldering in a schraeder valve on a new fuel filter. Good idea, are the materials compatible? I think a co-worked has a gauge I could use if I had a schraeder valve. I think I should still check this, but I am wondering if my hopes should not be so high about the alternator?

Harley Davidson has silver-soldered their frames for almost 100 years, if not more. AFAIK, not a single one has failed at that joint. The other option is using a brass T block with compression fittings that fit GM fuel line. This can accept a brass or stainless Shrader valve and doesn't require any melting metal. You just need to make sure it won't leak if you decide to leave it in place.

jmhjgh
07-20-2012, 08:38 PM
Any comments on the alternator possibly causing weird problems? The materials question on the schraedar valve was around if the material between the fuel filter casing and the plated schraeder valve are compatible.

JimN
07-20-2012, 09:20 PM
Any comments on the alternator possibly causing weird problems? The materials question on the schraedar valve was around if the material between the fuel filter casing and the plated schraeder valve are compatible.

Yeah- wrong voltages will cause all kinds of problems and there's not much possibility of knowing exactly what will happen because there's the possibility of not only higher DC voltage but also AC and there's really nothing on a boat that runs on AC.

I know of people who had things silver soldered using various metals but they weren't plated. I bought one at Ace Hardware with a brass body. As long as the valve won't leak, you could mount the T block on the hard line, as I posted before. I don't know who decided to omit the valve on production boats, but it doesn't seem like a good idea, even from the standpoint of service techs having to waste time installing one. As far as the fuel line repair kits working reliably- I used one on my Chevy pickup because I couldn't remove the filter (the joys of Wisconsin Winters, you know) and it hasn't leaked. That doesn't have a Shrader valve, either and it has always annoyed me.

jmhjgh
07-20-2012, 11:07 PM
Well I have everything in the basement except a new filter and maybe the brass shrader valve. I am excited about trying the alternator, but I am not sure when we can get back up north.
What pressures should I be seeing at pump on, idle, 2k and WOT?

jmhjgh
07-25-2012, 11:09 AM
The Napa fuel filters look like the case is made of aluminum. I was planning to solder on a schrader valve to a new fuel filter so that I can use a regular fuel pressure gauge to check my fuel pump. However, the aluminum case poses a problem. JB Weld may work, but I am not sure that would hold up to 40-50 psi? Maybe the female threaded connector could be drilled and tapped for 1/8" pipe thread for the schrader valve? Any other ideas?

JimN
07-25-2012, 11:11 AM
The Napa fuel filters look like the case is made of aluminum. I was planning to solder on a schrader valve to a new fuel filter so that I can use a regular fuel pressure gauge to check my fuel pump. However, the aluminum case poses a problem. JB Weld may work, but I am not sure that would hold up to 40-50 psi? Maybe the female threaded connector could be drilled and tapped for 1/8" pipe thread for the schrader valve? Any other ideas?

Use a magnet to see if it's steel. If not, don't expect JB to hold. Great stuff, but I wouldn't use it for this. I would make up the brass T fitting. What about an AC or Fram filter? You want to be able to measure pressure while the engine is running at all speeds, not just when the key is ON.

jmhjgh
07-25-2012, 11:37 AM
I will look at the filter a bit closer this evening. Too start with, it is a painted filter, but the connections looked like plated metal.
Do you happen to know the thread size on the filter so I could make the T-fitting?

jmhjgh
08-06-2012, 10:18 AM
OK. The boat is 3 hours north and we went up this past weekend. I had a fuel pressure tester and a new fuel pump just in case. For reference, AutoZone will sell you a very nice fuel pressure tester (with the t-fitting if you do not have a schrader valve on the fuel rail), and your money is refunded after returning the tester.

I installed the new alternator (which seemed to have a larger pulley on it because the belt was extremely tight), and went looking for the key. After having to hot-wire the boat since the key was 3 hours south, it fired right up. The boat ran perfect all weekend for a family reunion, and the surging and cutting-out of the injectors were the result of a failing alternator. This seems strange since the boat battery never failed to charge and start the boat (until it finally failed a few weeks ago).

Anyway, thank you for all who posted and a special thanks to JimN who traded numerous emails with me when the problem first started.

oshkarmeyer
08-09-2012, 06:46 PM
I've been having identical problems to yours and was wondering what part number did you use for the new alternator and where did you get one? I figured an auto store would have a compatible one but wasn't sure. And did you replace the oil pressure sender or not? I'd like the part number for it as well.

JimN
08-09-2012, 07:19 PM
I've been having identical problems to yours and was wondering what part number did you use for the new alternator and where did you get one? I figured an auto store would have a compatible one but wasn't sure. And did you replace the oil pressure sender or not? I'd like the part number for it as well.

Why replace it when it can be rebuilt? It's less expensive and there's nothing to change. Have it checked out before you do anything.

jmhjgh
08-09-2012, 10:44 PM
I brought mine to a shop that rebuilds starters and alternators. The capacitor had broken free of the clamp and took out the rotor and wires. The rebuild was going to be the same price as one off the shelf already rebuilt. I paid $85, but if it would have been a simple rebuild, it would have been closer to $50.

oshkarmeyer
08-09-2012, 11:38 PM
Gotcha. I will search around for a shop that does that then. Thanks guys.

oshkarmeyer
02-25-2013, 06:24 PM
I am still having an issue (since last July) with my 2001 Prostar 205V (5.7 Indmar) sputtering and shutting down around ~3,000 rpm. Once it's warmed up it will backfire up through the throttle body, like a lean pop, and shut down.

I can run full throttle down the river for an hour, or idle at 5 mph for an hour and it won't act up.

But if you get in that sweet spot it will act up repeatedly, usually after a minute or two of starting up and going again.

So far I've put in new batteries, new battery cable ends, plugs, wires, rotor, distributor cap, ignition coil, pickup coil, injectors, fuel lines, fuel pump assembly, fuel pump (Airtek), checked red cutoff lanyard, had alternator rebuilt (it ended up not putting out correct voltage). My mechanic hooked up his laptop while I ran it down the river to check fuel pressure and all sensors. All checked great, 32 psi and all sensors were fine.

At this point the mechanic is thinking the ECM is needing replaced. He thinks the ECM is telling the injectors that the engine is at idle and that causes the injectors to shut down in an instant. He's willing to charge me the cost price for the ECM (~$700). I think he's ready to get the boat out of his shop!

If you guys have any other ideas I would love to hear them before I have to buy this ECM.

I'd also be more than willing to chat with someone on the phone instead, cell phone is 319-850-2826.

Thanks very much.

JimN
02-25-2013, 08:17 PM
I am still having an issue (since last July) with my 2001 Prostar 205V (5.7 Indmar) sputtering and shutting down around ~3,000 rpm. Once it's warmed up it will backfire up through the throttle body, like a lean pop, and shut down.

I can run full throttle down the river for an hour, or idle at 5 mph for an hour and it won't act up.

But if you get in that sweet spot it will act up repeatedly, usually after a minute or two of starting up and going again.

So far I've put in new batteries, new battery cable ends, plugs, wires, rotor, distributor cap, ignition coil, pickup coil, injectors, fuel lines, fuel pump assembly, fuel pump (Airtek), checked red cutoff lanyard, had alternator rebuilt (it ended up not putting out correct voltage). My mechanic hooked up his laptop while I ran it down the river to check fuel pressure and all sensors. All checked great, 32 psi and all sensors were fine.

At this point the mechanic is thinking the ECM is needing replaced. He thinks the ECM is telling the injectors that the engine is at idle and that causes the injectors to shut down in an instant. He's willing to charge me the cost price for the ECM (~$700). I think he's ready to get the boat out of his shop!

If you guys have any other ideas I would love to hear them before I have to buy this ECM.

I'd also be more than willing to chat with someone on the phone instead, cell phone is 319-850-2826.

Thanks very much.

Send the ECM to Indmar to have it checked before replacing it. There's no reason to replace it and I would bet that you'll have the same problems if you do replace it.

Has anyone verified base timing and the IC module? This can't be checked using a computer, just a timing light, multi-meter and some tools.