PDA

View Full Version : Don't ballast bags need vent hoses?


501s
07-06-2012, 11:57 AM
I just had my dealer install additional ballast bags in te rear of my new X-30. Bee came on holidays and have been using them, but the dealer didn't add a vent hose at all. As far as I can tell they will just fill up till they explode. The switch has no timers about just goes on and there is no way to tell if they are full.

My questions is would people consider this normal and acceptable? All other boats I have been on had a vent hose out the side so you can tell when they are full. Would others members accept this on a new boat? The first day out it blew my plug and leaked a TON of water all over the inside of the boat? Hopefully this post can stay here long enough for people to see it and it's not maintance since its a brand new boat.

I really want to know if this is how other dealers do it too?

02ProstarSammyD
07-06-2012, 12:02 PM
I wouldn't accept that installation but thats just me. The heck if I just spent that much money and would have to stare down bags to tell if they are full. Plus I'm assuming all of your weight is hidding. Major bummer and worth a griping

ttu
07-06-2012, 12:03 PM
not sure about yours, but i followed ronnie's write up and mine overflows when i added the additional bags to the hard tanks.

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=25491

Heelgrad
07-06-2012, 12:04 PM
My ballast bags I had installed by my dealer have overflows that run out the side vents when the bags afe filled to their potential. I would imagine yours should have them as well. I'd be taking a trip back to have that fixed if I were in your shoes.

bcd
07-06-2012, 12:26 PM
Yes, you will need some sort of vent or relief valve in the system.

How did he install them - did he add extra pumps or just plug in the factory overflow into the bags? Be aware that on 2012's the programmable timers are gone. Without PnP, you can't get the factory pumps to run longer without doing some work arounds.

Fab
07-06-2012, 01:02 PM
No vent = it seems to be full but actually your fat sacs are full of air, no matter the timing of the pumps, that's why you need an overflow/vent either on your stock ballast or your sacs...every fly high sac is designed with some vents to drain the air out...

I wonder if it could damage your pumps if they run with high air/water pression in your fat sacs...

501s
07-06-2012, 01:39 PM
Ok, I knew they did a half *** job! They promised me the upgrade before they knew about Mastercrafts stupid software this year so they had to add an extra pump and valve that can only fill one side at a time. As if that wasnt bad enough now they fill to the point of explosion.


Every time we go out in our new boat and something doesn't work (perfet pass still won't hold speed) my wife gives me a dirty look and says we should have never sold the Moomba. I can honestly say that I am at the point of being very disappointed with both MC and my dealer. Bit thought I was getting the best and I feel like its the exact opposite. For a boat with a Msrp of 118k cad you would expect none of this crap. Plus the dealer took 16 days to install the damn system. 16 days of the best months of or short canadian summers.

Overall I am very disappointed. We bought it for wakeboarding and have 30 hours and still haven't had a decent ride once. Would anyone else find this acceptable?

bcd
07-06-2012, 02:32 PM
I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, my 2012 is in the shop for the 3rd time this year, currently with water in my engine oil.

There are work arounds for the ballast to get the factory to fill piggy back systems. You can trick the system into thinking you have plug'n'play (requires Lenco slave module), or you can hardwire around the system, although it takes 15 relays to get everything to work. Here are some options:
http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=47859
http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=46151&page=2
http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=46977

Fab
07-06-2012, 02:47 PM
Really disapointed as I witness all your troubles...Most of the Fly high kits would take around 2 or 4 hours max to install, looks like your dealer is as bad as ours that's why I don't give him that kind of job !!

Anyway I doubt your dealer has his own wakeboat and use some ballast otherwise he would knew about vent, we experience it on every ride when filling additionnals sacs with our old reliable tsunami pump...There's always some air stuck in those sacs that's why it needs a good overflow/vent if you want to use your sacs properly, I mean at 100% of their weight !!

Can't help about the 2012 PnP system with my 08' boat, but looks messy as hell !

CantRepeat
07-06-2012, 02:51 PM
Ok, I knew they did a half *** job! They promised me the upgrade before they knew about Mastercrafts stupid software this year so they had to add an extra pump and valve that can only fill one side at a time. As if that wasnt bad enough now they fill to the point of explosion.


Every time we go out in our new boat and something doesn't work (perfet pass still won't hold speed) my wife gives me a dirty look and says we should have never sold the Moomba. I can honestly say that I am at the point of being very disappointed with both MC and my dealer. Bit thought I was getting the best and I feel like its the exact opposite. For a boat with a Msrp of 118k cad you would expect none of this crap. Plus the dealer took 16 days to install the damn system. 16 days of the best months of or short canadian summers.

Overall I am very disappointed. We bought it for wakeboarding and have 30 hours and still haven't had a decent ride once. Would anyone else find this acceptable?

Well, I can't do anything about the dealer being bad. But what I would suggest is doing research about upgrades you are requesting. Knowing what should be done and having a knowledgeable discussion about them would go a long way to making sure you get what you are after.

You say the PP does not hold speed? How so? You know there are a couple of settings you can change to adjust how hard it pulls and by how far it might over shoot a speed.

snork
07-06-2012, 03:35 PM
Un-freak'n-believe-able
I would not have expected such workmanship from any MasterCraft dealer
I'd be livid to the point of hurt'n someone
never would I take my boat to them for anything whats so ever not even warranty work

501s
07-06-2012, 05:07 PM
We have spent hours and hours trying to tweak the perfect pass. I have even spoke to perfect pass direct and they said they are having problems with the new MC system, so they can't really help. You can cut out and the speed drops to 21 and by the time your in the air it's up to 24. Try doing a handle pass with that much tension.

I didn't want to start complaining online but after this long I feel almost ripped off.

And the idea the dealer doesn't know about upgrading ballast is comical. They are the self proclaimed larger MC dealer in te world and told me they had promised this to like 40 customers. I'm on my family holiday now with a boat that looks so axing and gets a ton of attention but we have troubles every time we are out. Any anyone here can understand how much an unhappy spouse helps things.


When we get home I plan to call my dealer and really speak with them. My friend bought a new MOomba mojo from the same dealer an it has been a much more reliable boat and easier to use. The fit and finish and interior aren't near the same calibur but who really cares if it's not great for the intended use. Im sure Zero off would fix the speed issue and just adding a vent would help the ballast situation but I dot want to spend one more penny and be without a boat again.


Sorry to vent but I would have been the BIGGEST advocate for MC, heck I had a huge thread about this on Wakeworld between the MC and a Malibu LSV before i purchased and went with the MC because of the dealer. I would be singing the praises up and down if I got what I was promised from the beginning. All I actually want is what I purchased. Would a Porche be acceptable without working cruise control? Would it?

It was great for tubing though .......

I wish someone from MC would read these boards and contact me direct. All of this is leading to bad publicity and we all know that's the last things MC needs.

I'm not a rich guy, this boat was a BIG stretch for and my family. It was a LOT of money.

snork
07-06-2012, 06:14 PM
And the idea the dealer doesn't know about upgrading ballast is comical. They are the self proclaimed larger MC dealer in te world and told me they had promised this to like 40 customers.

40 unsatisfied customers coming up

swatguy
07-06-2012, 08:46 PM
Welcome to the world of early releases, technology that has not run the course, lack of r&d, and dealer info from MC to the dealer for issues. I don't own 2012 but a family member has a x25 I spend time in. Mc is so fast in releasing these boats and throwing technology in them that no one can tell you how to set up even the guys at MC. Mc can't tell them ( boat owner) or their dealer how to set up their 25 and get the plug and play, tab , and pp to work together and have an issue free boat for a day. They have bypassed the ballast issue for now by adding a complete automated aftermarket system. While not the most economical solution it was something they planned on anyways because the new they would be sacking the crap out of it from the get go and by having a complete self served "plug and play" system it cut fill times in half. As far as the quality and little stuff there has been zero issues ,but the technology side has kept the boat at its mercy. It's redicullous and more and more prominent these last yrs. I know I am gonna get flamed from the die hards , just like i did for ripping the 2013 X Star debacle , but take a peak around the die hards are the ones with the issues with brand new boats every year.
The ballast issue has been a plague for the past 5 seasons. U can read the numerous threads all about them yet MC still has them and continues to employ them in their boats cuz they give it a "cool look on a screen " as far as I can tell.

As far as getting a response from mc ......you won't get one here unless you keep ripping them a new one and even then they will tell you to knock off the bad publicity not give you a solution. Just check the board for the common issues that have plagued boat after boat with just ballast alone. The problem in this case with the computer issues is at no fault to your dealer. The bag plumbing. ....well from the sounds of it could be.......but MC has not been forthcoming to the dealers in the area here and from the looks of the board here all across the country. None of them can figure out the 2012 system as of yet. Trust me I keep praying a solution shows. It's rediculous and more and more prominent these last yrs. The solution to the plug and play past issues was dumping another 2-4k of your hard earned cash into totally rewiring you system. That's unacceptable to me but some will say the quality you pay for outweighs that.......And they my friend have drank the koop aide.


As far as your bags. From the post you posted your dealer did a half assed job indeed. Again this is without exact knowledge of how you system is precisely plumbed in. My guess is they just added a fill line to each bag with the additional pump. Thinking the bags would not get air because you have the reversible pump. They figured you were gonna have to watch in order to switch the y valve anyways. They did do you a favor by adding an extra pump but they should have added a pump for each side if it were legit. Along with the pumps should have came a vent line with a check valve. Without knowing t
heir exact reasoning they gave you the cheapest solution possible to add your extra ballast.

All in all I wish you the best of luck on getting things resolved. I actually passed on a 2012 boat this year from another mfg with a T. The reason is because I could not get the boat model I wanted without their digital screen package and all it's interworkings related to it. On our test drive the system wasn't performing properly and and that sealed the no sale for me. As far as the mojo. Moomba has come around ten fold in past 6 yrs. I mean their new line and rides have gotten better and better inside. While they lack the billet, vinyl quality, some build quality aspects that really won't make a boat explode or disintegrate down the road, they perform and throw wakes with the best of them. I am not going to tell you that you should have bought a Moomba. I am actually feeling this may be my only option as well to get a new ride without an all digital linked up system from the dealer networks in my area. There is something to be said for aerator pumps and switches that turn things on when you push the button and turn things off when you flip them the other way. I will tell you you're not alone in your new boat woes about the technology and I wish everyone the best to get those dialed as I would be going bizzzurko like yourself. The minute I hear any valid solution to the family members 25 I will post it

snork
07-06-2012, 09:22 PM
Swatguy the Mojo is no better than your 2000 xstar
save your money for when MC get this glitch worked out
FWIW wont be long before Moomba goes "hi-tech" like every other boat manufacture

swatguy
07-06-2012, 09:29 PM
Snork,
That's my problem, I am so spoiled by the wakes its ridiculous, I don't need a new boat for performance I need a new boat for space as my family is doubling quickly with friends of my daughters hopping on. Every time I ride something it doesn't blow my mind performance wiseand the space upgrade alone can't seal the deal just yet :) Especially since i have to have an under 22 ft restriction.

501s
07-06-2012, 11:25 PM
The ballast upgrade was a single pump put in off the intake for the front ballast tank. Originally te dealer wanted to give me a MANUAL valve I would have to operate by opening the engine compartment and turning the valve to switch bags. After a lot of emails they agreed to an electric valve but it still only fills or drains one side at a time. The switch they put in is a generics and doesn't even match the factory switches. I just wanted to be clear about the solution they provided.

The dealer blames MC about the ballast problems and they did put in a system it's just not very good IMO.

Like I said before I would/will be the biggest advocate of MC when this is truly made right. I will have videos and pics of the wake and because we are involved with all the wakeboard contests and I ride on one of the busiest lakes in Alberta and work with some of the schools it wo

swatguy
07-06-2012, 11:38 PM
Whether it fills one side or both at the same time off the same pump while annoying doesn't really affect the fill time of the pump. Think about it. Whether your filling twice the space or a smaller space at one time the pump only has a max output. Filling side by side is actually a better advantage then both at once especially if you want to surf. Also it will allow you to balance the boat by emptying one side or another. The perfect solution would be a 3 position. Left right or both valve. Because I sometimes fill while the rider is riding I would like the option to fill both at same time. For us it gives us a few warm ups as the bags are filling in the am to get us loose and then they fill and we are all warm and ready to ride. ( all while we are pulling the rider) Again tho they should have added two pumps IMO. What did they say about overflow/vent valve?

501s
07-07-2012, 12:00 AM
Haven't spoke to them yet. The valve isn't that bad, I can definitely live with it, but if you forget to check the bag, boom or crack. Not awesome.

As mentioned a pump for each would have been ideal, but I can live with this valve but no overflow sucks.

Ok I gotta get back to the last day of my vacation tomorrow. Not sure if we will take the boat out but I am going to try a few more perfect pass things tomorrow just to see.

Let me be clear though, the surf wave is awesome. Best I have ridden and I think with enough tweaking the wakeboard wake will be nice and big and smooth but without consistent speed it's tricky.

Thanks for all the replies letting me know I'm not being too picky on a new boat.

Fab
07-07-2012, 04:46 AM
but without vent you won't be able to fill it properly...I mean what's the point of buying some 200,400,800lbs or whatever bag you want if it's filled with 50% of air if not more ?!

You definitely need to modify this IMO, for the next summer maybe ;)

CantRepeat
07-07-2012, 06:30 AM
Haven't spoke to them yet. The valve isn't that bad, I can definitely live with it, but if you forget to check the bag, boom or crack. Not awesome.

As mentioned a pump for each would have been ideal, but I can live with this valve but no overflow sucks.

Ok I gotta get back to the last day of my vacation tomorrow. Not sure if we will take the boat out but I am going to try a few more perfect pass things tomorrow just to see.

Let me be clear though, the surf wave is awesome. Best I have ridden and I think with enough tweaking the wakeboard wake will be nice and big and smooth but without consistent speed it's tricky.

Thanks for all the replies letting me know I'm not being too picky on a new boat.

Clearly they do not understand how to design an addon ballast system and there are much better ways to do what you want.

If they would have added two pumps, two thru hulls, two vent lines and two switches they would have a much happier customer. The factory switches are easy to get and they are a dealer they should of had them in stock. If I were you I'd be looking at a complete redo of the additional ballast.

501s
07-07-2012, 11:22 AM
I would love to have my ballast system redone but I'd also like to have a boat this summer. It's just not what you would expect on a boat of this caliber from the latest dealer in the world is it?

Plus me dealer is 2 hours away so it's a day of work for drop off and pick up.

501s
07-07-2012, 11:23 AM
Can the vent lines just be "Y'd" into the hard tank vents? That was my idea. Very easy to do if it would work.

CantRepeat
07-07-2012, 11:51 AM
Can the vent lines just be "Y'd" into the hard tank vents? That was my idea. Very easy to do if it would work.

I have seen that done but I really like having completely independent systems.

swatguy
07-07-2012, 01:08 PM
They can be y'd in but you would optimally want a check valve on the hard tank side and the bag side if done properly to prevent one overflowing into the othe when vented. I did this for my integrated bow sac. Rather than add another hole in the gel for a new vent I spliced into the factory bow bags vent

CC2MC
09-09-2012, 08:54 AM
Man, having a brand new boat and not being able to use it bc it isn't working properly really sucks. I would check on getting a loaner from the dealer. I hope you were able to get everything worked out. My sister just got their new to them boat back and was able to ride in it for the very first time last weekend. The boat went into the shop back in March. The hold up was two stinkin gaskets for the motor. Runs like a charm now, as it should. $1600 later.

Mastercraftdave
09-10-2012, 11:21 AM
501's I know what you mean about having a new Mastercraft. We bought a new 2012 X45 and have had are fair share of problems with the boat but most of them relate to the Ballast and BIG screen. I was coming from a 05 Malibu VLX that I never had one problem with and figured I wouldn’t either because we were upgrading to a newer boat. I have always like MC and thought they made great boats.

I love my X45, the wakeboard wake is awesome and the surf wake is all I need. The boat really drives and handles great and handles the rough water very good. We ordered the plugnplay system from the factory and it uses the electronic valves to switch the pumps from tanks to bags and vice versa. There is one valve for the rear and one for the front. One of them always has some type of problem. Right now the front valve has to be pushed about a 1/4 of an inch more in order to work for some reason and you have to do that manually. The rear valve as of now works great so far but was replaced once already. The problem that I have now with the rear is that sometimes when I’m draining them the bags, the screen will go straight to 0% when the bag is still full and since the pumps have cut off switches on them when the system reaches 0% you have to flip the switch back and forth to drain in order to drain the bag. it’s a real pain in the a**.

I haven’t taken the boat in yet to the dealer since I want to use it while I can and I am getting the retro fit for the power tower so I’m going to do it all while I can. They told us there is a new software update in the mix to fix all of these issues that were having and to help the screen from being so buggy. That has been the only other problem that I have, the screen sometimes won’t do certain commands. MC has warrantied everything thus far and seems like they are trying to get things fixed, it just sucks they changed up the dash in the 2013....

BTW for your ballast system, if it is fly high bags that are made specifically for the X30, they won’t have vents. When I was ordering the bags for my X45, the bags made specially for the X45 didn’t come with vents either. I thought that was strange but the guys at wakemakers said that they aren’t always required and that its preference. So I upgraded all of my bags to get the vents and installed them correctly. Maybe they used the fly high bags made for the x30.....

Thrall
09-10-2012, 03:16 PM
MC issues with the ballast/BIG, etc aside, your dealer should be embarrased that they can't install a proper ballast system. Must be enough customers with $100k burning a hole in their pocket up there to not have to have a quality service dept.
What really sucks though is that MC is turning out the MOST expensive wakeboats and they have problems seemingly across the board with the electronics.
Do they still offer guages only for '13 or is that discontinued again?
One of the major factors when I bought my 06, in 2009 was getting a boat that did not have the Vdig and my 06 has been great, no electrical issues at all (except the sh@tty wiring to the battery, but at leasat I could see and fix that). It's been solid quality just like my '96 and as expected.
MC needs to look to the future more, IMO. I'm sure they sell some of their boats to people that have no clue and just want the flashiest thing available to one up their neighbors, but I'd guess a majority of their sales are to prev MC owners who are buying MC again for the quality, or people who've had MC recomeded to them by other MC owners, or people who see how well used MC's hold their value and feel comfortable buying a new one with out loosing their @ss on it.
These problems are going to hurt their customer base IMO.
10 years from now, or sooner, I think all these automatic touch screen dashes are going to hurt the resale of those boats and boost that of the few that are straight forward.
Yes everything is digital, but it's a throw away world with electronics. When's the last time you had your TV or phone repaired? It breaks, buy a new one.
This theory works with vehicles as there's a better delaer base to repair them, they are more reliable, and people generally don't buy a car to keep it "forever."
For boats, those looking at used 10+year old boats, are going to want something they can repair themselves or have repaired readily by someone other than the dealer and the assocaited high cost that goes with it.