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Hrkdrivr
06-13-2012, 04:03 PM
2006 X-45, L18.

Pulling my daughter around on her wakeboard on Lake Oconee, first day of vacation, BAM, feels like we hit something and then we get a terrible vibration. (there goes the vacation :mad:)

We're able to make about 1400 RPM and 8mph before the vibrations get too bad.

Got the boat onto the trailer. No damage to the prop. Spinning it by hand I don't feel any grinding or anything out of the ordinary. Shaft appears to be straight and strut seems undamaged. Running the engine in neutral and revving it up is normal and smooth. I can't find/see any pieces/parts/chunks under the engine. Transmission oil is new, full and has no water intrusion.

I can imagine a water-soaked log being stout enough to cause tramsmission issues but maleable enough not to damage the prop.

Here's the question: Is it possible that hitting a log would transmit enough of a jolt to make the dreaded damper plate give out?

Second question: How the heck do you pull the transmission in this boat? It seems like I can get to all the connections, but I cannot imagine how you get it out of the way with the limited work space, fuel tank in the way, etc.

Thanks in advance, this forum has been a lifesaver!

NatesGr8
06-13-2012, 04:18 PM
you have a bent prop, look at it from the side, not straight on from the back. i bet you'll probably notice one blade looks off from the others. It doesn't take much to throw the prop out of whack and cause vibrations. I would also check the shaft at the prop seat for excessive runout. That might be bent too, anything over 0.003" is too high.

Trig2275
06-13-2012, 04:19 PM
Lots of stumps in Oconee.

TRBenj
06-13-2012, 04:33 PM
you have a bent prop, look at it from the side, not straight on from the back. i bet you'll probably notice one blade looks off from the others. It doesn't take much to throw the prop out of whack and cause vibrations. I would also check the shaft at the prop seat for excessive runout. That might be bent too, anything over 0.003" is too high.
^^exactly^^

gusolah
06-13-2012, 04:51 PM
Same thing happened to me a few weeks ago. Bent prop..went from a three blade to a four blade and 420 dollars later she is running good.


---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?r2ek5o

Chrisoswald
06-13-2012, 08:27 PM
I agree bent prop. Especially if the shat spins easily. I just went thru a slightly bent strut and I had to use two hands to spin the prop.

Oconee is basically a forest covered with a little bit of water covering it. Be careful.

ted shred
06-13-2012, 08:51 PM
A prop only needs to be bent very little to cause vibration. Sometimes you can hardly tell even when you look at it.

goebelt
06-13-2012, 11:06 PM
Check the shaft with a dial gauge. Check behind and in front of strut. Fasten it to the trailer so it is fixed position. I used a piece of angle iron clamped to the trailer.

Tom190driver
06-13-2012, 11:09 PM
you have a bent blade this happened to me on lake west point by a log. you need to pull prop an look @ it from the side, one blade on mine was bent toward the hub. i called Eric @ OJ PROPS had a 13-13 LC Force 4 blade in 1 day sent him the old prop it was trashed he said so i got another backup 13-11.5 imp.90 it only takes 5mins to change props with a good prop puller. Both props are great on my 190 prostar.

Hrkdrivr
06-14-2012, 05:32 PM
Just got home and am on the way out to pull the prop. Looking at it on the boat I can maybe BARELY see the trailing edge of one blade may be bent the slightest amount...

I'll post pics if you can see anything on them...

Hrkdrivr
06-14-2012, 05:34 PM
Check the shaft with a dial gauge. Check behind and in front of strut. Fasten it to the trailer so it is fixed position. I used a piece of angle iron clamped to the trailer.

Could you please explain how to do this? When you say a dial gauge, are you talking about a micrometer? Do you do this while the shaft is still installed?

Would it be a bad idea to run the engine and put it into gear in the driveway (with the prop OFF) to see if I can see any wobbling in the shaft?

GoneBoatN
06-14-2012, 06:04 PM
...Would it be a bad idea to run the engine and put it into gear in the driveway (with the prop OFF) to see if I can see any wobbling in the shaft?

Yes, bad idea. Your cutless bearing inside the shaft strut is lubricated by the fact that it sits in water.

Thrall
06-14-2012, 06:39 PM
Yes, bad idea. Your cutless bearing inside the shaft strut is lubricated by the fact that it sits in water.

WOn't hurt to run it briefly.
Better yet, shoot a little WD40 or similar in the slots on the cutlass bearing then turn it. Won't have to run it but for a couple seconds. Either it's bent or it isn't.

Table Rocker
06-14-2012, 06:45 PM
Even with the boat in neutral, the shaft will probably be turning enough to see a wobble.

Cloaked
06-14-2012, 07:36 PM
Could you please explain how to do this? When you say a dial gauge, are you talking about a micrometer? Do you do this while the shaft is still installed?

Would it be a bad idea to run the engine and put it into gear in the driveway (with the prop OFF) to see if I can see any wobbling in the shaft?Use a dial gauge to check the runout on the shaft. Place the gauge in a stationary position right next to the shaft. Rotate the shaft once or twice and watch the needle on the gauge as the shaft will move the needle when it rolls across a high spot or a misaligned shaft orientation. This is not a micrometer. You can do this with the shaft installed or with it out. I'd prefer to do it with the shaft installed, allowing for the shaft to be in place for convenience of the test. A dry bearing will cause an awful noise but won't kill the bearing. I prefer to rotate it by hand if possible but a bump with the engine won't kill it. Keep it minimal. The above poster also has a likely scenario of the shaft rotating while in neutral. All you need is minimal (but at least one full) rotation to watch the dial gauge for movement.

.

Hrkdrivr
06-15-2012, 06:20 PM
Prop and prop puller on order.

Is it ok to use anti-seize when I put the prop back on? Will it just wash away?

goebelt
06-16-2012, 01:25 AM
So was the shaft bent?

goebelt
06-16-2012, 01:27 AM
I would put Greese or anti siese on. Makes it easier to take off next time. But hopefully not for a long time. Haha

Hrkdrivr
06-16-2012, 10:20 AM
I would put Greese or anti siese on. Makes it easier to take off next time. But hopefully not for a long time. Haha

Still looking for a dial gauge...

Hrkdrivr
06-16-2012, 10:21 AM
I would put Greese or anti siese on. Makes it easier to take off next time. But hopefully not for a long time. Haha

Yeah...if you're taking the prop off, it's usually not for a good reason...

TOO-TALL
06-16-2012, 11:10 AM
Still looking for a dial gauge...

Here's one.....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dial-Indicator-Magnetic-Base-Set-/110895460147?hash=item19d1e26f33&item=110895460147&pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&vxp=mtr

Hrkdrivr
06-16-2012, 11:27 AM
Here's one.....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dial-Indicator-Magnetic-Base-Set-/110895460147?hash=item19d1e26f33&item=110895460147&pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&vxp=mtr

Thanks Too-Tall, I didn't realize they were so reasonably priced. I expected them to be hundreds of dollars...I'm on it!

TRBenj
06-18-2012, 12:46 PM
I would put Greese or anti siese on. Makes it easier to take off next time. But hopefully not for a long time. Haha
No, you do NOT want to put grease or anything else between your prop and shaft. The taper is what holds ~90% of the force (the key accounts for the remaining 10%). You want to remove all foreign material from between the 2 parts. If you lap the prop on with compound to make the 2 parts fit together even better, thats ideal.

Hrkdrivr
06-19-2012, 11:06 PM
Just got the puller in the mail today and I can't make it work. The tines that are supposed to go in front of the prop hub are too thick to fit between the hub and the strut/bushing. Grr. Gonna sleep on it and try again tomorrow.

Hrkdrivr
06-19-2012, 11:07 PM
No, you do NOT want to put grease or anything else between your prop and shaft. The taper is what holds ~90% of the force (the key accounts for the remaining 10%). You want to remove all foreign material from between the 2 parts. If you lap the prop on with compound to make the 2 parts fit together even better, thats ideal.

Understand your point, and I never said this, but the shaft and prop are splined. Does that change things?

jmw
06-19-2012, 11:21 PM
Splined does not change anything. All the splined shafts are 1 1/8 inch shafts. A prop puller is much nicer but if you crawl up under the boat you can probably use for feet pushing/kicking on the prop and knock it off. Leave the nut screwed on a little if you use your feet so that the prop does not fall off the shaft.

GoneBoatN
06-20-2012, 08:36 PM
Prop and prop puller on order.

Is it ok to use anti-seize when I put the prop back on? Will it just wash away?

My 2010 manual, under prop maintenance, "thoroughly clean and apply a light coat of waterproof marine multi-purpose grease to the splined area of the shaft and propeller".

A habit from my I/O days, I do this yearly.

Hrkdrivr
06-20-2012, 09:33 PM
I got the new XMP Edge 14.75 x 17.5 in the mail today; it's gorgeous. But I still haven't been able to get the old prop off...grrrrr.

macattack
06-20-2012, 09:59 PM
[QUOTE=GoneBoatN;850981]My 2010 manual, under prop maintenance, "thoroughly clean and apply a light coat of waterproof marine multi-purpose grease to the splined area of the shaft and propeller".

My 2005 Owners Manual has the exact same verbiage...

You can also use a small 2x4 or big punch & hammer and tap the center of the hub, rotate, hit, rotate, hit until the prop pops off; definitely leave the nut on for a couple of threads to "catch" the prop!

Hrkdrivr
06-20-2012, 10:15 PM
[QUOTE=GoneBoatN;850981]My 2010 manual, under prop maintenance, "thoroughly clean and apply a light coat of waterproof marine multi-purpose grease to the splined area of the shaft and propeller".

My 2005 Owners Manual has the exact same verbiage...

You can also use a small 2x4 or big punch & hammer and tap the center of the hub, rotate, hit, rotate, hit until the prop pops off; definitely leave the nut on for a couple of threads to "catch" the prop!

Well what do you know? My manual says that too. Embarrassed I didn't look there first.

I'll try the 2x4/punch/hammer technique. Thanks guys.

mikeg205
06-20-2012, 10:26 PM
My manual states the same...1995.... put Permatex Prussian Blue on tapered part of shaft. My prop comes right off when I loosed my hex-nut.

you might want to spray it with pb blaster or wd40 and let it sit over night. You may have some galvanic corrosion in there so may need to break it loose.

Hrkdrivr
06-21-2012, 11:51 PM
After reading all the responses and a voice mail from Vince at Skidim I did a combination of things to finally get the prop off.

Liquid Wrench each of the last two nights.

Loosened the four nuts/bolts on the coupler and the big nut in front of the coupler on the prop shaft.

At this point the prop shaft was still stuck in the couple flange (?), so even though the nut was loose, I couldn't move the shaft back.

So I did what JMW suggested and crawled underneath and used my feet.

Thanks to everyone for reminding me to keep the nut on the end of the shaft, or the prop would have flown right into the rudder and then crashed to the floor.

The thing is, even with the big nut in front of the coupler backed off as much as I dare (how many prop shaft threads must be protruding from that nut?) and after having essentially used the prop as a slide hammer to pull the shaft back, when I reseat the prop, there's still not enough room to use the prop puller.

Oh well, I'll grease it up next time and it should go more easily. Old prop is on its way to OJ to be refurbed. I can barely see a bend in the tip of one blade. Hopefully that's what's causing the vibrations.

The dial gauge arrived today so the next step is to figure out how to mount it to something and check the prop shaft for runout...

Thanks again, gang!

sand2snow22
06-21-2012, 11:56 PM
I have kind of skipped around reading this thread but I want you to know what I just went through...

sand2snow22
06-21-2012, 11:59 PM
2005 X-Star, vibration at mid RPM. Prop, strut, shaft all looked great!?!?! Had prop repaired, vibration still there, changed prop to brand new one, same one you got, vibration still there. Had to drop the rudder to change the prop :( Shaft was out of alignment, so we re-aligned it. Which made the vibration worse. Turns out the shaft is bent. New shaft and good as new. If you have already, you should really pull the shaft out of the boat and roll it on a nice smooth floor, you will be able to tell if its bent. Yes, lots of bloody knuckles for me....

sand2snow22
06-22-2012, 12:05 AM
At this point the prop shaft was still stuck in the couple flange (?), so even though the nut was loose, I couldn't move the shaft back.

So I did what JMW suggested and crawled underneath and used my feet.

Thanks to everyone for reminding me to keep the nut on the end of the shaft, or the prop would have flown right into the rudder and then crashed to the floor.

The thing is, even with the big nut in front of the coupler backed off as much as I dare (how many prop shaft threads must be protruding from that nut?) and after having essentially used the prop as a slide hammer to pull the shaft back, when I reseat the prop, there's still not enough room to use the prop puller.


When you removed the 4 bolts from the coupler and pushed on the prop to get it unstuck how did it align with the motor? Ours was a good 1/2 inch off, it literally moved to the left 1/2 inch. Did yours do that too or did it stay inline with the motor/tranny?

Hrkdrivr
06-22-2012, 08:32 AM
When you removed the 4 bolts from the coupler and pushed on the prop to get it unstuck how did it align with the motor? Ours was a good 1/2 inch off, it literally moved to the left 1/2 inch. Did yours do that too or did it stay inline with the motor/tranny?

I didn't actually push the drive shaft far enough backwards to get it out completely out of the coupler/flange, so I can't answer for sure.

What I can say is that after it moved aft, there was no binding at all, i.e. once I broke it free it slide back and forth pretty easily, so I doubt anything was mis-aligned or it would've been really hard to move.

sand2snow22
06-23-2012, 03:34 PM
I didn't actually push the drive shaft far enough backwards to get it out completely out of the coupler/flange, so I can't answer for sure.

What I can say is that after it moved aft, there was no binding at all, i.e. once I broke it free it slide back and forth pretty easily, so I doubt anything was mis-aligned or it would've been really hard to move.

Sounds good, if your couple is still inline with the tranny you should be good and probably just a bent prop. I've seen some props that look good, but a 1 or 2 blades are so out of whack the prop is toast....

Hrkdrivr
06-23-2012, 09:49 PM
Use a dial gauge to check the runout on the shaft. Place the gauge in a stationary position right next to the shaft. Rotate the shaft once or twice and watch the needle on the gauge as the shaft will move the needle when it rolls across a high spot or a misaligned shaft orientation.

Just checked the runout in front of the strut and at the prop seat. In front it was .002" and at the prop seat it was .005" which is too much, right? Poop.

I thought pulling the shaft was going to be easy, but then I saw the shaft log and have no idea what to do. I can't really reach it even if I did know what to do.

Anybody got some links that talk about removing a V-drive prop shaft...headed off to search....:mad:

Jerseydave
06-23-2012, 10:23 PM
I'm no expert, but before you pull the shaft I would install that new prop and water test.
I'm no so sure if .005" of runout is too much for a prop shaft, maybe borderline?

You're new prop alone may just fix your vibration

Hrkdrivr
06-23-2012, 11:08 PM
I'd love to try the water test, but it's an hour and a half to the lake.

How much runout it too much? Anyone know?

As for removing the shaft, I've searched but I can't find what I'm looking for. I'm pretty sure I know how to get the coupling apart, but what, if anything, do I need to do about the shaft seal?

Cloaked
06-24-2012, 06:42 PM
Five thousands of an inch is a pretty good run-out. I'd be happy with that unless some specification required a tighter tolerance.

0" + / - 0.005" is pretty good.

I'd send the prop out for repair / balance and see what that gets you before taking it apart.

$0.02

.

.

Hrkdrivr
06-24-2012, 07:19 PM
Five thousands of an inch is a pretty good run-out. I'd be happy with that unless some specification required a tighter tolerance.

0" + / - 0.005" is pretty good.

I'd send the prop out for repair / balance and see what that gets you before taking it apart.

$0.02

.

.

Awesome. Somebody said .003 would be the most that was acceptable, so my heart sank when I got .005, over, and over, and over again...very repeatable results.

I have no idea what acceptable tolerances are, but I'll mount the new prop and see if it still shakes. I probably would have had to do that anyway since nobody is answering my question on another thread about how to deal with the shaft seal when pulling the shaft...26 views and zero answers so far. 8p

Cloaked
06-24-2012, 07:50 PM
Awesome. Somebody said .003 would be the most that was acceptable, so my heart sank when I got .005, over, and over, and over again...very repeatable results.

I have no idea what acceptable tolerances are, but I'll mount the new prop and see if it still shakes. I probably would have had to do that anyway since nobody is answering my question on another thread about how to deal with the shaft seal when pulling the shaft...26 views and zero answers so far. 8pNever saw it. Links are always useful :-)

Have a look here. Also, find the home page to this link and you'll see a lot of good general info.

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/pss_shaft_seal


.

.

Hrkdrivr
06-24-2012, 09:31 PM
Never saw it. Links are always useful :-)

Have a look here. Also, find the home page to this link and you'll see a lot of good general info.

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/pss_shaft_seal


.

.

Yeah...the .003 reference came from NatesGr8; he was the first response to my OP. I'm not sure where this number comes from, experience or a tech manual?

That link you list has great information, but I'm still looking for gouge on the OJ prop seal...I just can't find any information on how it's mounted/attached to the shaft. I don't know if it's like the PSS seal or not. If it is, there's something that needs to be unbolted from the shaft before it can be drawn out the back.

jmw
06-25-2012, 12:31 AM
OJ seal is slightly different. Once you get the shaft out of the coupler it will slide out. Sometimes getting it out of the coupler can be a real PIA other times it slips right out. Since you had such a hard getting the prop off, lets hope that does not continue... I would not pull the shaft at this point. The .003 is the the feeler gauge that is the recommended tollerance between the shaft coupler and transmission coupler. I think you will be fine and I would not pull the shaft until after you get the prop back and test it. If it still vibrates after the prop is fixed, which I doubt, the shaft is the only thing left.

sand2snow22
06-25-2012, 01:01 AM
OJ seal is slightly different. Once you get the shaft out of the coupler it will slide out. Sometimes getting it out of the coupler can be a real PIA other times it slips right out. Since you had such a hard getting the prop off, lets hope that does not continue... I would not pull the shaft at this point. The .003 is the the feeler gauge that is the recommended tollerance between the shaft coupler and transmission coupler. I think you will be fine and I would not pull the shaft until after you get the prop back and test it. If it still vibrates after the prop is fixed, which I doubt, the shaft is the only theng left.

X 2 ....

Hrkdrivr
06-25-2012, 08:22 AM
Great! Thanks guys! I'll get the new prop on and back it into the river near my house and see how it goes!

goebelt
06-25-2012, 11:08 AM
Pulling coupler on vdrive when u have no room. Just make a gear puller and this is what u do..... Piece of thick flat iron 5 inches by 3/8 or 5/16. Drill 2 holes in the flat iron the exact width of 2 bolt holes on the coupler. 2, 2 inch bolts. You will pull on the coupler and of course not the tranny. Tighten both bolts at same rate. Once tight hit the prop a bt and should break loose. Ps keep coupler big nut on so the prop dose not hit rudder. If this is not clear let me know. Also 3 thou is the limit for run out on shaft. If the shaft is bent in front of the strut it will be impossible to do a proper alignment as when u check the coupler in different positions it will never be perfect bc it will change as u turn the tranny and shaft to check in all positions. If shaft is bent behind the strut an alignment can be successful but is is the easyist place to check for a bent shaft.


Hope this helps

goebelt
06-25-2012, 11:10 AM
Sorry. The price of flat iron as a puller should be 5 inches by 2 inches by 3/8 or 5/16 thick

NatesGr8
06-25-2012, 04:21 PM
i was giving you the tolerances used in industry, for motors and pumps running 3600 rpm or greater. 0.005" is probably okay, but its not great. I checked mine after I wrecked a prop on a log and it was 0.003 + or - 0.0005. I work in the world of preventative maintenance and personally on a pump or motor shaft i like to see less than 0.002" if its going to be turning 3600 rpm or greater.

With the prop off you can't see any bent fins? lay it flat on both sides and check to see if the prop hits evenly all around.

TRBenj
06-25-2012, 05:16 PM
I have heard the same .003" max allowable runout on a shaft, same as Nate posted.

At .005", youre almost double the allowable limit. Time for a new shaft!

Hrkdrivr
06-25-2012, 05:46 PM
i was giving you the tolerances used in industry, for motors and pumps running 3600 rpm or greater. 0.005" is probably okay, but its not great. I checked mine after I wrecked a prop on a log and it was 0.003 + or - 0.0005. I work in the world of preventative maintenance and personally on a pump or motor shaft i like to see less than 0.002" if its going to be turning 3600 rpm or greater.

With the prop off you can't see any bent fins? lay it flat on both sides and check to see if the prop hits evenly all around.

I could barely see one tip bent, I'm talking maybe a milimeter or so. I sent it off to OJ to have it looked at regardless.

I have heard the same .003" max allowable runout on a shaft, same as Nate posted.

At .005", youre almost double the allowable limit. Time for a new shaft!

You're probably both right; it's time for a new shaft, but I don't want to deal with it! It's like in flying when we "shop for weather" after getting a bad forecast, we hope a different forecaster will give us a more favorable prediction. Just like in flying, getting the answer you want is usually not the best way to go. You guys just won't lie to me!

Hrkdrivr
06-26-2012, 11:33 PM
Eric from OJ called me today. I'm sure he's pretty busy so I appreciated his taking the time to call (nobody does that any more). My prop got to their shop today and it didn't take any time for him to tell it was "slammed shut." That's cool prop-talk for "trashed." I couldn't really tell, all the blades were pretty bent and I guess to my eye they were all bent about the same, which made it hard for me to see...

Sooo...after talking some more I decided to go ahead and pull the prop shaft to order a new one since this is the second time we've hit something and the runout was 0.005" at the prop seat.

Thanks for all the advice on how to get the shaft out. Fortunately I didn't need to fashion a coupler-puller. When I was fighting to get the old prop off, I had loosened the coupler bolts and the nylock nut on the end of the shaft, and when I was wailing away on the prop it loosened the shaft from the coupler.

For those who haven't seen any pics of what the coupler on a v-drive looks like after it's taken apart, I've posted some below.

Incidentally, to get the prop shaft out, I had to drop the rudder, which I've never done before. With a little help from my daughter, it wasn't too hard. There's not much room to work and I'm sure putting the rudder back in will be pretty tricky since I can only get one hand down there.

While I had the shaft out I figured I'd check out the cutlass bearings and I was shocked by what I saw. The aft-most bearing was destroyed, although I couldn't really tell when everything was put together. The culprit was a wake-rope I backed over a couple of years ago. WHen I realized I had done it, I got into neutral immediately and killed the engine. Then I went underneath with a dive mask and thought I had gotten all the rope off the shaft with a knife and a pick. Boy was I wrong. One of the pics below is the aft bearing. The extra stuff is the molten rope that was drawn forward through the bearing and was deposited at the front of the bearing, inside the strut. One pic shows a pretty normal bearing (the front one) and the other shows a couple views of the trashed one.

Sooo...prop shaft and cutlass bearings to order tomorrow!

Pics as fast as I can get them posted...

Hrkdrivr
06-26-2012, 11:35 PM
Pics of the coupler with the nuts/bolts and nylock nut removed.

Hrkdrivr
06-26-2012, 11:37 PM
Here's what the coupler looks like. Note the splines and the white corrosion. Is it ok to grease this up when I get the new prop shaft like it's ok to grease up the other end when I put the prop on?

Hrkdrivr
06-26-2012, 11:39 PM
Here's the prop shaft prepped to be pulled out. Eric suggested some electrical tape over the splines/threads to prevent damage to the seals in the prop seal.

Hrkdrivr
06-26-2012, 11:44 PM
Here are some shots of the shaft and coupler after I got them out. What I realize now (plus Eric told me) is that the shaft must be seated all the way into the coupler. When you put the nylock nut on, I could only see maybe one thread's worth of shaft protruding forward. I guess if the nylon part of the nut is filled totally with threads you don't need much more. It'll take a good bit of torque to get the nut on that far.

Hrkdrivr
06-26-2012, 11:46 PM
Here's my high-tech cutlass bearing removal tool: a 1 1/16" socket on two extensions, helped by some liquid wrench, a rubber mallet and my lovely assistant.

Hrkdrivr
06-26-2012, 11:48 PM
Duplicate text

Hrkdrivr
06-26-2012, 11:49 PM
Here's a fried cutlass bearing and an ok one. The fried one is coated inside with the remains of the rope. There aren't even any slots any more for the water to get through.

Hrkdrivr
06-26-2012, 11:53 PM
Kind of a before and after set. The rope, before the prop shaft ate it, and the rope after it was liquified and burned its way forward through the bearing, collecting and hardening on the front of the bearing inside the strut bushing.

I'm ashamed to show these photos, but if just one person learns from my mistake... :rolleyes:

TOO-TALL
06-27-2012, 12:16 AM
Good job.Thanks for the pics.

Maybe the vibration was caused by the bad cutless bearing? combined with the bend prop.

Also I would lightly sand rust and corrosion off the face of the shaft coupler and the tranny coupler were they met.This way you can get a good feel with the feeler gauge when setting the .003.

FrankSchwab
06-27-2012, 02:38 AM
Wow, great write-up but a bummer of a problem.

BOAT - Break out another thousand.

Have you been able to verify that the strut isn't bent? (I know, I know, just another thing to replace...). It's an easy check - put the cutlass bearings back in just a little bit (to center the propshaft), slide the propshaft through and see if it goes more-or-less through the middle of the shaft log. As a practical matter, as long as it doesn't strike the sides, it's good enough.

It's easy to have a slightly bent strut that points the propshaft to the side of the shaft log; the propshaft will bend enough to go through, and you can even do the factory propshaft alignment (the 0.003" side-to-side variance on the coupler) with the shaft bent that way - but it won't be a smooth running boat.

If the strut is OK, I'd suggest following the attached procedure to align the engine to the propshaft. It made a small but noticeable difference in smoothness on my boat.

80790

/frank

p.s. By the way, my understanding is that you should have been able to get the propshaft out without removing the rudder. It's offset slightly to the side of the prop, and the shaft is supposed to be able to slide out right alongside it. I've never removed mine, so I don't guarantee that is true...

mtajpa
06-27-2012, 03:46 AM
Thanks for sharing your troubles. I sure we will all benefit from your experience.

sand2snow22
06-27-2012, 04:44 PM
Well done, did you roll the shaft on a smooth floor to see if it was bent? I had a local shop straighten mine. It was bad, but he got it back to .003 without using heat! Going to test it in another boat...

Hrkdrivr
06-27-2012, 09:16 PM
Good job.Thanks for the pics.

Maybe the vibration was caused by the bad cutless bearing? combined with the bend prop.

Also I would lightly sand rust and corrosion off the face of the shaft coupler and the tranny coupler were they met.This way you can get a good feel with the feeler gauge when setting the .003.

I think it was a combination of the prop, bearings and shaft. I'm replacing all three since OJ said the prop was bent/unrepairable and the bearings were smoked. Hopefully this will take care of it!

Thanks for the advice on the sanding. I will do that to the face to the tranny flange. The new shaft comes with a new coupler.

Hrkdrivr
06-27-2012, 09:22 PM
Wow, great write-up but a bummer of a problem.

BOAT - Break out another thousand.

Have you been able to verify that the strut isn't bent? (I know, I know, just another thing to replace...)...

If the strut is OK, I'd suggest following the attached procedure to align the engine to the propshaft. It made a small but noticeable difference in smoothness on my boat.

/frank

p.s. By the way, my understanding is that you should have been able to get the propshaft out without removing the rudder. It's offset slightly to the side of the prop, and the shaft is supposed to be able to slide out right alongside it.

Thousand...yes! Prop, shaft, bearings...right around a grand. Ugh

As for the strut, ugh. It didn't look bent but I will check it when the new shaft gets in.

Thanks for the alingment procedure. I'll take a look and see if it's something I can pull off.

I too have heard/read the shaft should clear the rudder, but it just wouldn't happen no matter where I placed the rudder. The aft end of the shaft wouldn't go any further aft than about mid-chord on the rudder. Maybe that's because it was bent?

Hrkdrivr
06-27-2012, 09:24 PM
Well done, did you roll the shaft on a smooth floor to see if it was bent? I had a local shop straighten mine. It was bad, but he got it back to .003 without using heat! Going to test it in another boat...

I haven't rolled it on the floor yet, though the dial gauge said it was bent. I'm going to find a shop to see if they can straighten the old one for a spare. It's sure an expensive piece of steel to waste.

EJ OJPROP
06-28-2012, 08:55 AM
Chad - Shaft and bearings are shipping out today.

CCAnderson
06-28-2012, 09:22 AM
Here are some shots of the shaft and coupler after I got them out. What I realize now (plus Eric told me) is that the shaft must be seated all the way into the coupler. When you put the nylock nut on, I could only see maybe one thread's worth of shaft protruding forward. I guess if the nylon part of the nut is filled totally with threads you don't need much more. It'll take a good bit of torque to get the nut on that far.

A splined shaft should not take a ton of torque to seat the coupler or prop as both should slide right onto the shaft with a bit of lubricant. Corrosion was the cause of the prop and shaft being difficult to remove. As far as one thread showing on the nut, that is OK. the top rounded part of the nyloc nut is not load bearing it serves only keeps the nut from loosening over time. as long as you have full thread engagement and the shaft are seated properly you are good to go.

Hrkdrivr
06-28-2012, 01:42 PM
Chad - Shaft and bearings are shipping out today.

Awesome! Thanks! Can you PM me some shipping info?

EJ OJPROP
06-28-2012, 02:27 PM
PM sent

Hrkdrivr
06-28-2012, 02:56 PM
A splined shaft should not take a ton of torque to seat the coupler or prop as both should slide right onto the shaft with a bit of lubricant. Corrosion was the cause of the prop and shaft being difficult to remove. As far as one thread showing on the nut, that is OK. the top rounded part of the nyloc nut is not load bearing it serves only keeps the nut from loosening over time. as long as you have full thread engagement and the shaft are seated properly you are good to go.

Now that I sit and think about it, I'm sure you're right. Thanks.

I know it's OK to grease the splines at the prop end, are you saying it's ok to grease the splines at the coupling end? How about the faces of the coupler and the tranny flange?

tim79mc
06-28-2012, 07:54 PM
I wanted to chime in on the anti-seize / grease.. I have a '79 MC - when I bought it, the prop had been on for probably 5 years. I had it another 4 until I needed to replace it. The prior owner cleaned everything and put the prop on. It would not come off. It had corroded to the shaft.

My first attempt bent the prop puller. So, out comes the rudder and on goes the automotive gear puller. Thankfully, my 3-arm puller fit in between the prop blades. Tightened that up. No go. I had to add heat to get the prop to pop.

Since then, I have always used neversieze on the shaft. I don't ever need a prop puller and have never sheared a key.

My vote is lube it up.

I'm in the middle of a stringer replacement, so after reading this, I'm going to pull the coupler from my shaft to check the shaft straightness while it's out of the boat. I'm guessing it will be just as hard as getting that first prop off.

NatesGr8
06-29-2012, 09:43 AM
to the OP, glad you figured out your problems, despite the expensive fix.

My vote too is for never seize on the splines. I use it on my props and even on my impeller splines and have never had it cause any problems, it has only made things come apart easy.

Hrkdrivr
06-30-2012, 08:25 PM
New prop I've had a few weeks. New prop shaft and cutlass bearings got here today! Kinda purty just to look at!

Hrkdrivr
06-30-2012, 08:27 PM
The new shaft has a castellated nut and cotter pin...

Hrkdrivr
06-30-2012, 08:30 PM
New versus old cutlass bearing. New ones have 6 water channels vice 5.

Hrkdrivr
06-30-2012, 08:32 PM
Nice new cutlass bearing installed. I sprayed the tube with soapy water and knocked the bearings in with a rubber mallet.

(Can you see something wrong in this picture?)

Hrkdrivr
06-30-2012, 08:43 PM
Have you been able to verify that the strut isn't bent? (I know, I know, just another thing to replace...). It's an easy check - put the cutlass bearings back in just a little bit (to center the propshaft), slide the propshaft through and see if it goes more-or-less through the middle of the shaft log. As a practical matter, as long as it doesn't strike the sides, it's good enough.
...

p.s. By the way, my understanding is that you should have been able to get the propshaft out without removing the rudder. It's offset slightly to the side of the prop, and the shaft is supposed to be able to slide out right alongside it. I've never removed mine, so I don't guarantee that is true...

Here are a couple of pics when I was trying to install the new shaft. I didn't notice the bend when I was pulling the old shaft, it always rode a little to the right side of the shaft log. Anyway, splines wrapped to protect the shaft seal, I couldn't even get it part way in (insert joke here).

When I couldn't get the old shaft out because of the rudder, I should have known I had strut issues. The shaft hits the right wall of the shaft log and the other end hit the right side of the rudder when trying to pull it. The strut is obviously bent clockwise, when viewed from above.

Aaaagggghhhhh!

Hrkdrivr
06-30-2012, 08:52 PM
So, I managed to get all the nuts/bolts out of the strut. Of course the sealant they used is still holding it in place. I will do a search, but how do you get that sucker off? Heat gun?

Also, my nice new pretty cutlass bearings are in the useless strut. Is there a good way to get them back out or are they trashed? The old ones were easy to get out because one just fell out which gave me easy access to pound the other one out.

Please, please PLEASE tell me it's not possible the holes drilled in the boat for the strut might be off and causing this misalignment rather than a bent strut. I cannot visually see the bend, but the fact that the shaft hits the log on the right side and wouldn't clear the rudder kinda tells me it's pointed in the wrong direction.

FrankSchwab
07-01-2012, 01:41 AM
I think they use Silicon Rubber for sealant (but I could be wrong). Other have posted how they've been successful removing the strut; I'd try putting some stress on it with the old propshaft and sliding a razor blade under the side in tension (for example, try to rotate the strut towards the bow, and slide a razor blade under the aft end of it), to try to peel it off.

I'd ask OJ about reusing the cutlass bearings.

I've heard of people drilling out the screw holes and holding the strut in place using the propshaft while they resealed and tightened the screws. Someone else used their old propshaft as a gigantic lever to bend the strut back. Both of these make me uncomfortable; I'd buy a new strut (but then, I haven't just written a really large check to get to the point that you're at).

Good luck,

/frank

Tom190driver
07-01-2012, 02:44 PM
HrKdrivr, I feel ur pain,i also hit a log last month. After reading all ur post & replys it think i have bent strut put new prop on from oj's but still not smooth an can't turn prop by hand, so i'll fork over another 500.-800. bucs. pix to follow

Hrkdrivr
07-02-2012, 07:09 PM
I talked to the insurance company today. Initially I was just going to eat the cost of repair, but it got spendy very quickly. They want pics showing the strut and shaft are bent and they're going to talk to OJ to confirm the prop was not repairable. They also wanted pics of the HIN and both sides of the boat (easy for us boat lovers!). The only thing I didn't photograph was the dial gauge when I was measuring the runout on the drive shaft, so I need to put the old shaft back in and photograph the runout on the gauge...sigh.

I was't sure they would cover a claim if I did the work myself but they will. They reimburse retail cost of parts and some labor too, which I thought was pretty cool.

jmw
07-02-2012, 07:36 PM
Noticed you still have not removed the strut. Yes, heat will help but often constant tension and time. If you insert the bent shaft you can use it for leverage. If it still won’t budge use a couple ratchet tie down straps from either end of the shaft through the strut and tighten them down applying heat with a heat gun. Keep tightening them and applying heat and it should come off... It could take a couple days of keeping constant pressure but usually applying heat will usually get it off the same day.

Tom190driver
07-02-2012, 10:14 PM
GOOD Insurance is it USAA ,

tim79mc
07-02-2012, 11:09 PM
A trick I learned from guys at a transit bus manufacturer. They use a guitar string or piano wire to slide between the windows and the bus chassis to cut through the silcone sealant. If you pass some current through the wire, you can heat it and it will slice right through. Clean up after you get the first cut made is probably a bear without scratching up your gel coat..

Hrkdrivr
07-03-2012, 07:35 AM
GOOD Insurance is it USAA ,

Not USAA, although I use them for everything else. For some reason they weren't writing policies when I got my boat. I was with Chubb or somebody, and they stopped writing boat policies so now I'm with Travelers'.

Hrkdrivr
07-05-2012, 10:47 PM
Hooked the open ends of the strut with a ratchet strap routed around the trailer frame (not my idea, jaw above), put some tension on it and hit it with a heat gun ~1000 F for about 15 - 20 minutes. When it swung free it pulled a little chip of gel coat with it. I think I'll just slap some sealant on it, stick it back in place and paste/bolt the strut back on. After it came off I used a stiff putty knife to work off as much of the sealant as I could from the bottom of the boat.

Also, heat guns make things, well, HOT! The damned thing glanced off my forearm so I have a 2" second degree burn. I was giving the straps a little pull to see if it was ready to come off and it surprised me. Duh.

New strut should be here Monday...hopefully putting it back together will go smoothly.

sand2snow22
07-05-2012, 11:18 PM
Did you get the new strut? If not you should!!!!!

sand2snow22
07-05-2012, 11:25 PM
Pic of a X-30. Says he wrapped a 'rope' around it. Complains of vibration at higher speeds. I can see his prop is bent. Strut looks ok, but I bet he has more problems than just a bent prop if it did this damage to the hull! It's a good thing MC are made thick b/c any other boat and this thing would be taking on water!

Hrkdrivr
07-05-2012, 11:48 PM
Did you get the new strut? If not you should!!!!!

New strut should be here Monday.

Hrkdrivr
07-05-2012, 11:48 PM
Pic of a X-30. Says he wrapped a 'rope' around it. Complains of vibration at higher speeds. I can see his prop is bent. Strut looks ok, but I bet he has more problems than just a bent prop if it did this damage to the hull! It's a good thing MC are made thick b/c any other boat and this thing would be taking on water!

Holy crap! I can't believe a rope did that...wow!

sand2snow22
07-06-2012, 01:45 AM
New strut should be here Monday.

I'm talking about the new bullet strut. Last pic here:

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showpost.php?p=716630&postcount=30

Hrkdrivr
07-06-2012, 08:31 AM
Oh...no, I didn't order that. Is it beneficial for wakeboarding? I thought it was mostly to tame the wake for slalom skiing?

sand2snow22
07-06-2012, 10:24 AM
I thought it was better all the way around. Better for slalom, cleans water directed to prop, better performance. You are good with the old strut. For reslae you avoid the slight chance of someone asking what happened to your original strut!? And having to explain....

JDC
07-06-2012, 04:58 PM
... For reslae you avoid the slight chance of someone asking what happened to your original strut!? And having to explain....Ahhh... good point! Never thought of that.
Although, I guess smacking a prop and doing a thorough repair like Hrkdrivr is doing, should be of some value to a prospective buyer.

Hrkdrivr
07-06-2012, 08:21 PM
I thought it was better all the way around. Better for slalom, cleans water directed to prop, better performance. You are good with the old strut. For reslae you avoid the slight chance of someone asking what happened to your original strut!? And having to explain....

I'm sure if I ever sell the boat they'll be able to find out all the down and dirty about it that I've posted here!

Hrkdrivr
07-14-2012, 11:59 PM
New strut arrived while I was out of town. Placing them side by side and measuring the gap between them, and then switching sides and measuring again I could really tell the old one is bent.

Hrkdrivr
07-15-2012, 12:06 AM
Replacing the strut was the most evil hateful job I've ever done on the boat. Impeller? Piece of cake! Drive shaft coupler? No problem!

I circled the holes with 5200 and criss-crossed the rest of the strut with it. I used a floor jack to help support it while my wife worked the bolts in from the bottom while I got the washers/nuts started on the inside, with a good bit of silicone on those. One difficult part was there's a plate that I thought was just a backing plate for the back two bolts on each side. Turns out it also is a mount for a steering cable bracket. Talk about "pat your head and rub your tummy" work. With room for only one hand it was a real beyotch to get the bracket to hold still while the bolts came through.

The worst part was the lack of space. It's obvious they mount the strut and rudder before the engine is installed. There's just no room under that L18. Several of the forward washers/nuts I had to get started and tightened blind.

My wife is a very patient woman.

Hrkdrivr
07-15-2012, 12:11 AM
Once the strut was in I pushed the drive shaft through (taped up the splines) and then mounted the prop so I'd have something to turn against when I was working on the coupling. Marine grease on the shaft splines before the prop went on. Tightened it down and blocked it with a 4x4.

On the coupler I put anti-seize all over the face of the tranny flange and on the splines before I bolted up the coupler.

Once that was all tight the rudder went back in.

Can't wait to get her on the water...and check for leaks!!!

Hrkdrivr
07-15-2012, 12:13 AM
Purty new prop (14.75 x 17.5) is so shiny it makes the new strut look dull in comparison.

Disregard that gel coat spot. That's another issue for the winter...:mad:

cptskier15
07-19-2012, 07:30 AM
Well done!! That looked like a real mission!! Well worth it! What are you going to do with all the old hardware? We broke a rudder off, damaged a prop etc. We got the buffed up and now they are bolted to the wall. Very good for stories!!

Hrkdrivr
07-19-2012, 07:43 AM
Well done!! That looked like a real mission!! Well worth it! What are you going to do with all the old hardware? We broke a rudder off, damaged a prop etc. We got the buffed up and now they are bolted to the wall. Very good for stories!!

That sounds cool, but the prop has already been melted-down at OJ and might be part of another prop already. Eric gave me some $$ for the metal value towards another prop. I'm checking to see if he wants the strut too for another discount. I'm going to get another prop like my new one to have as a spare.

sand2snow22
07-19-2012, 12:19 PM
I will take your bent strut. Let me know how much shipped to 97217.

clrussell
08-15-2012, 09:58 AM
Bringing an old thread back from the dead lol, It must be a bad time of the year for hitting things.. I hit somethin last Saturday and looked last night finally.. Got a bent prop bent shaft and hopefully not a bent strut, it looks ok though.. Anyone know any way to check the strut otter than looking at it? Boat is a 1990 prostar 190 powerslot

OzX2
02-18-2014, 04:32 PM
Thank you sooo much HRKDVR for this post..... this was a lifesaver for us. The heat gun and Ratchet straps worked like a charm, and expecting to lose a little gel coat, saved me having a heart attack when this happened......

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l258/seedydj/SKEG/IMG_1686_zpsabd639f8.jpg (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/seedydj/media/SKEG/IMG_1686_zpsabd639f8.jpg.html)

Please note the old bearing on the propshaft in this picture, and see how out of whack it is...... seems that you prop strike may have been a blessing, following your rope incident. Had you not noticed a vibration and inspected your Skeg, this would have been the result...

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l258/seedydj/SKEG/IMG_1689_zpsd76b5796.jpg (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/seedydj/media/SKEG/IMG_1689_zpsd76b5796.jpg.html)

A small vibration just above Idle prompted our inspection, but there was absolutely no vibration at speed at all. Interestingly the new Skeg has changed nothing, and the vibration just above idle is still there. Next we will replace the propshaft and see if this eliminates the vibration. Personally I believe the slight vibration may be due to the prop, but since there is no vibration above 1500 RPM, I am not too concerned.

Sorry to tell you that on our 2009 X2 there is loads of room to get at the 8 nuts on the Skeg, but to make you feel better, i can tell you that it was a B**tard getting the rudder out, in order to get the prop off. We subsequently found out that undoing the four bolts on the top end of the propshaft would allow it to push forward enough to get the prop out!!

Keep up the good work!