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magnum
05-27-2012, 09:52 PM
Can anyone point me in the direction what to look at first , The cylinder that slides on your trailer hitch to apply the brakes is just sliding free now when I stop , I have checked the brake fluid and it has fluid in little holding tank on front hitch but it does look a little rusty color so not sure if water has got in there but the brakes do not apply when you try to stop . Could maybe the seals gone out in the cylinder or something else . thanks for any input

Jerseydave
05-27-2012, 10:19 PM
If you back into the water too far lake water can enter the master cylinder thru the vent hole in the cap. Get a suction tool and remove the old brake fluid and replace with new. You will have to bleed the brakes at each caliper to remove air from the system.

magnum
05-29-2012, 12:51 AM
Thanks for the input, I think that is what has happened because we had to back in til hitch was under water due to launching ramp being shallow , has anyone else had this problem with water getting in your brake lines , I know i can't be the only one that had to back in to far to get the boat off the trailer

bcboy
05-29-2012, 01:10 AM
I had a 06 trailer and there was a recall on the mastercylinders...do a search or contact your dealer...seems like a long time ago so i dont know if they will honour it...good luck!

bturner2
05-29-2012, 08:26 AM
Another place to look at is the reverse solenoid. If it's shorted or stuck open it will just loop the brake fluid. This solenoid should only activate when the truck is in reverse and gets power through the connector coming from the vehicle. If it's not there then you're looking at the master cylinder.

blackTT
05-31-2012, 10:41 PM
My tandem trailer with 4 wheel disc brakes have stopped working. On inspection I realise there is no brake fluid at all in trailer.

1. How does this happen? Where does it leak from.

Trailer does do a lot of miles

2. How do I fix it. Refill it?

Also I have never noticed brake fluid leaking from anywhere on the trailer. But I also never noticed it was low or out of fluid to so I guess that doesn't stand for much lol:):

blackTT
05-31-2012, 10:49 PM
Sorry was meant to be a new topic

kgrove
06-01-2012, 03:46 AM
Thanks for the input, I think that is what has happened because we had to back in til hitch was under water due to launching ramp being shallow , has anyone else had this problem with water getting in your brake lines , I know i can't be the only one that had to back in to far to get the boat off the trailer

I'm going through almost exactly the same problem - water in my brake system - and have been forced to take a crash course in Mastercraft trailer brake systems. Here's what I've learned:

If you're lucky, the water hasn't done any damage and flushing the water out, replacing with brake fluid, and making sure the lines are bled of any air will fix the problem. There is a good chance this isn't your only problem since you indicated the sliding mechanism was moving freely.

The surge brake actuator has a master cylinder that when compressed creates the hydraulic pressure that causes the brake calipers to squeeze and also a shock absorber that prevents the master cylinder from being hammered too fast by the trailer's momentum. If the master cylinder is bad - possible due to corrosion from the water in the system or from age/use - that shock gets slammed around pretty mercilessly as well. Most places will recommend if either the shock or master cylinder is bad you should replace both, and if you're replacing both the shock and the master cylinder it may be cheaper if you replace the whole actuator mechanism. That's the good news as it all sounds easily fixed.

The bad news is if you have an '06 Mastercraft trailer, you probably have a Reliable brand actuator (I know this is true for my '08 and I don't think they changed as my prior boat was an '06 and it looked exactly the same). Unfortunately Reliable went out of business and it is apparently difficult if not impossible to get parts. Mastercraft now uses a UFP actuators, but UFP actuators don't go into trailer tongues designed for Reliable. If you can't get Reliable parts and you have to convert to UFP, you have to have the whole swing-away tongue reworked or replaced to accommodate the UFP actuator. I haven't priced this out yet, but a different thread suggested $800. That same thread (pretty recent in this trailer section) the poster said they were taking their trailer to a metal shop and thought they could get the work done much cheaper. The actuators themselves only cost somewhere between $160-260 (seen multiple quotes - not sure why the wide range).

Here is where the news potentially could get even worse, though here is where my research is running thin. According to my dealer, when they've seen water in the reservoir (especially rusty), that means there is water pushing through to the calipers and not only is the master cylinder and shock likely to be ruined, but the calipers have a good chance of being corroded from the inside as well. The most common problem is when they do actuate, they lock up and won't release correctly or smoothly. They claim that they have had numerous problems when replacing the master cylinder and shock without also replacing the calipers at the same time and therefore recommend replacing all three (master, shock, plus calipers) simultaneously.

So far I'm choosing not to believe them because it would cost me somewhere in the neighborhood of $1200 to replace all four calipers. That said, I've already replaced my master cylinder and shock (with the last Reliable parts he could find, by the way) and I'm still having braking problems (see my recent thread about surge brakes pulsating), so their recommendation is sounding less and less like they are simply trying to milk me for another $grand. I'm trying everything I can think of to avoid replacing the calipers, but am having difficulty coming up with alternatives. I personally don't think it likely the calipers would corrode from inside, but.... mine aren't working and everything else in the system is new.

Hopefully, you can get away with just replacing the master cylinder and shock and/or whole actuator mechanism and hopefully your local dealer or mechanic will be more successful at sourcing parts than mine as I don't wish this frustration or expense on anyone.

For what its worth, I don't think I got water in my system because my ramp is too shallow. My trailer hitch is a couple inches lower than ideal (fixing that now), and one of my buddies insists on backing me in too far. I never realized it could result in problems like this, so while annoying, I never thought to say anything to him. I will now.

I don't understand why they haven't designed a brake system for boat trailers that would be so dumb as to put the vent for the brakes at a level so likely to go underwater and cause problems. The vent should have a tube that runs up the frame to near where the winch is where it never would go under... dumb design.

Dan_Lorenze
06-01-2012, 05:54 PM
Great read, thanks for all the info. My brake fluid looked like bloody mary mix before I replaced with fresh fluid. Now, it's rusty again.. 06 trailer


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Philscbx
06-03-2012, 10:57 PM
I don't understand why they haven't designed a brake system for boat trailers that would be so dumb as to put the vent for the brakes at a level so likely to go underwater and cause problems. The vent should have a tube that runs up the frame to near where the winch is where it never would go under... dumb design.You are absolutely RIGHT.
It's totally retarded - I rebuild all brake systems - and this is by far the worst application ever seen -
The cap has to be replaced with custom breather up where you said, up to the winch area.
Or up inside the frame leading to wench.

The other guy seeing rust coming back - this happens when pressure is applied to calipers, and calipers with brakes off force fluid back to master full of water/rust from them.

The entire system has to be rebuilt - Pistons pulled from calipers - cleaned of all water - or it will freeze solid rust in cast iron-
with full on brakes when pistons won't return - burns up the rotors - making hot chatter spots -

Now to make matters worse - partner takes trailer in to get brakes fixed - they replaced caliper on the one side.
Stupid part 1, never replace just one, period.

Gets back to my shop - I look in master cylinder - Solid freaking rust & water -
Is there something in the water making these people retarded? Put on new brakes and leave it full of rust mud?

This system can not be worked on w/o a vacuum tank system to flush all water/brake fluid out from the calipers - then pressure bleed from a pressure pot of new fluid -

It's prison engineering going on-

Philscbx
06-03-2012, 10:59 PM
Great read, thanks for all the info. My brake fluid looked like bloody mary mix before I replaced with fresh fluid. Now, it's rusty again.. 06 trailer
Unfortunately, can't replace only the master with clean fluid - the entire system is full of water/rust.

Dan_Lorenze
06-06-2012, 12:23 PM
Unfortunately, can't replace only the master with clean fluid - the entire system is full of water/rust.

I hear ya.... Well, I sucked all the old stuff out and it's all clean again.. Maybe an anual thing for me... :)

Philscbx
06-07-2012, 07:20 PM
I hear ya.... Well, I sucked all the old stuff out and it's all clean again.. Maybe an anual thing for me... :)If the calipers are not going to get flushed out clean,
they'll rust enough over time to seize up the pistons.
There's not enough clearance in the bore for added dimension of rust.

Brakes come on, and won't back off. Trailer is locked in the street.
Or burn up the rotors or more burning up the bearing lube & seals dragging it. Bad day in traffic.
I hate when that happens. Then I get the call, can you fix it? I'd rather not on a nice day.

skongolf
06-07-2012, 08:48 PM
Pretty timely discussion. I just looked in my master cylinder after my actuator was sliding really slowly and sure enough, rusty color. Soooooo. New actuator or replace the fluid, bleed the brakes and see what happens? If you replace the fluid in the MC and bleed the brakes really well, wouldnt that push all the contaminents out of the lines and pistons? Just curious.
Just an FYI, my trailer is an 01 and has UFP parts. For those of you that replace the inner member of the actuator, how did you get the pins out? the UFP directions suck!!

mikeg205
06-07-2012, 11:35 PM
THe UFP A-60 is very easy to take apart - which model do you have. Call dennis at UFP in Tennessee he's a great help...

http://www.ufpnet.com/Home/tabid/36/Default.aspx

skongolf
06-08-2012, 12:03 AM
I have the A60 and yes it looks easy to do, but alot of people have said the c clips annd the pins that hold the inner member to the outer sleeve can be a huge pain to get out. I have talked to Dennis before and he is a big help. I just with the UFP manuals were a little more detailed. I will have to check Youtube and see if there are any video tutorials.

mikeg205
06-08-2012, 12:16 AM
It's a walk in the park... removing the c-clips is the hardest part. I take the c-clips off and then just knock out the pins and the inner actuator slides right out. I should have youtubed when I did it.

I used to take both c-clips out now I do one side and slip right out. I always have a bit of trouble putting it back in and keeping the back rollers in place.

have had mine out a bunch of times trouble shooting it.

AZX9
06-08-2012, 12:24 AM
I have to confirm the caliper issue. I had a reliable that I could not find part for and had to have the actuator cut off and a UPF put on. Also had to replace calipers. Mine were locking up and burning the calipers up. They were not locked but you couldn't spin the wheel when jacked up. Cost me about 775.00 and I have a single axle. Replaced actuator, calipers, and surfaced the rotors.

Philscbx
06-13-2012, 08:36 PM
This is what I was left with after having a new caliper installed - I was flaming mad -
I get referred to one of the best in town - llol total joke.

So now I'll have to rebuild the entire system - after this was left in all last winter.
I'm making a master cylinder adaptor to pressure bleed the system -
the nonsense of needing two people is just too stone age to bleed a simple process.

I may get rid of the DOT3 and use synthetic - this should keep the system rust free -
but still needs to be bleed to remove water from time to time if a vent isn't placed/routed high up the winch support.

It hasn't been confirmed / but I think this is the mod 60 Titan with disc brakes.
Waiting on email from Titan.

Beautiful color, Ya Think
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7078/7184931977_4da9a70231_o.jpg

deminimis
07-03-2012, 10:52 AM
Similar problem here. Titan acutator. Replaced calipers with Kodiaks over Winter. Master is rusty. Flushed and cleaned and rusty master still. Vacuum bled repeatly. No brakes (not a big deal as my dually stops the works just fine. I can replace the master for worksand have rust again some day, or get a UFP with its aluminum master and call it a day. Thinking I may just replace the works.

Philscbx
07-03-2012, 12:09 PM
Vacuum doesn't work well bleeding brakes and difficult getting all the air out.
It works good flushing out the old.

Vacuum creates turbulence at fittings, stretching what air bubbles are trapped.
The results usually fail.

Pressure is the best.
Try the Mity-Vac.
It's the reverse process by feeding the bleeder at caliper to force air
to vent at the Master.

I'd still vacuum to get clean fluid to both wheels first - removing 99.9% of the old out of the Master first - filling with new fluid - then pull new out to the calipers.

Now back feed the calipers.

I contacted Titan - to get another Master fill cap.
Then one could modify cap to use as adaptor for pressure pot,
to bleed the brakes single handed at the calipers.

I might have to use lab style rubber stopper to make the adaptor instead.

Anti-seize needs to be applied to bleeder fittings.

deminimis
07-03-2012, 12:27 PM
I've got the Mityvac. If I can bleed the clutch on an Italian trials bike, then these should present no problems. Just joking, of course. These are fully bled and then some. Ran nearly two large bottles through the system. The MC just isn't cutting it now. Can't even compress the calipers (via the master) to take up the slack from the install. I'll probably just save my beans and get the Titan MC instead of replacing the works with what appears to be the better UFP setup and call it a day.

Philscbx
07-03-2012, 12:33 PM
Calipers & Master need to be rebuilt then.
Was the chain & bar method tried moving the master?

No amount of perfect bleeding will force frozen pistons to move.

In usual case, Internal rust - if piston did move - they would lock on solid to rotor and not back off.
We've seen that result. Pretty Ugly.

deminimis
07-03-2012, 12:43 PM
These are brand new calipers. Its a bad master.

Philscbx
07-03-2012, 02:27 PM
Then that point was missed or omitted.

deminimis
07-03-2012, 03:06 PM
Post on prior page, but no matter. After just doing a lot of extra work on the actuator (welded on Grade 8 washers to make up for the wallowed out holes on the outer housing, changed out the shock, etc, and now the MC is toast). Keep throwing good money after bad or bite the bullet and get the UFP actuator? That is my burden. Since I want to change out all the speakers in the boat, a new actuator is the same as a pair of Polk components (in a Jeremy Bentham, Utilitarian sort of mind-set). Yea, $50 vs $200 probably isn't worth crying about, but it still causes me to mist up a bit. Then there is, of course, the hassle of cutting out the Titan housing from the Master Craft swing assembly and welding in the UFP one, but I don't mind that stuff too much....if only I had more time. Never enough time. At least I have the shop and equip, so I probably need to keep my lamenting to a minimum.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-T7gh6dv5G18/T_M1IByeabI/AAAAAAAACU8/kGX6jyhkQ0k/s912/7670506371219809055.jpg


One the upside, all my trailers use a 2 5/16 ball except the Mastercraft Trailer. I could go with a 2 5/16 actuator and be done with it.

http://imageserv3.team-logic.com/store-logic/products/159/55229/st_ufp_a-84_actuator.jpg

In fact, I just ordered it. Done and done. No more rusty master. No more 2" coupler. More towing cap. I'll post up the results when finished!

DoubleE
08-17-2012, 11:24 AM
Oh geez, I just found my brake line was hanging down 2 nights ago before I launched her. It's like the left side of the metal line between the calipers was never flared out so it just popped out. Looking in the master cylinder cap, I see it's only half full and rust in the fluid, but it doesn't look terrible?

I've got it at a local mechanic that sounds like he knows what he is talking about, so we'll see what he reports back? Should I be concerned how many MasterCraft trailers he's worked on or are they all pretty much the same?

Regardless, I'd like to be a bit educated before he calls back. I have an '06 X2 so I can only guess I have a '06 Trailer. Based on my reading here, how can a guy tell if he has a Reliable actuator?

Also, where is this breathing hole mentioned? In the cap itself? I don't remember seeing a hole, will have to look when I get her back. Agreed, this seems crazy. What can I guy do? Can be covered with tape temporarily or something when launching? Or just check it periodically and at the sign of rust, flush it?

quarterback X-30
06-03-2013, 04:32 PM
I just purchased a 2004 X-30 and I love it!! I've always wanted one. However, I absolutely hate the trailer!!! I'm having the same type of trailer brake problems that it seems others are having on here. Seems like a pretty common occurrence . Seems like there should be some kind of recall?? Anyway, the brake on the driver side will not release. The piston is stuck. I checked my fluid and it looks the same way another gentleman had described, "looked like a bloody mary mix". Lots of rust in the system. As such I had everything flushed and the caliper taken apart to get make sure it was in good working condition. New fluid was put in and I was on my way. However, I got about 10 miles and my break started doing the same thing. Very Frustrating. I just got off the phone and It looks like we will flush the system again and put on two new calipers. Hopefully that will do the trick. If anyone else has gone this route please let me know. Some additional insight would be much appreciated. Also, if anyone knows a good place get new calipers for this trailer let me know. Thanks!

deminimis
06-03-2013, 04:55 PM
Kodiak calipers and UFP actuator and brake problems will be solved. Here's my UFP swap thread if it helps: http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=49213

Not sure if you have a tandem or single, and not sure if there is a difference between the two (as far as calipers go), but the Kodiak 225 caliper is a direct replacement for the factory Reliable calipers (seems the factory Reliable model was C1000, or CR1000 or something similar) that were on my tandem trailer. There's a casting mark with the model on your calipers. When I did mine it cost $15/ea to have the rotors turned (unmounted). If a history of sticking pistons, then you'll likely need your rotors turned.

Pacific Trailer set me up w/ the needed calipers. New oil seals came from elsewhere (perhaps Tenn?). UFP from Pacific Trailer or eTrailer, if I recall.

It's a rather bitter pill to swallow, but when said and done, it's said and done. -No more trailer brake woes.

kgrove
06-03-2013, 05:16 PM
I just purchased a 2004 X-30 and I love it!! I've always wanted one. However, I absolutely hate the trailer!!! I'm having the same type of trailer brake problems that it seems others are having on here. Seems like a pretty common occurrence . Seems like there should be some kind of recall?? Anyway, the brake on the driver side will not release. The piston is stuck. I checked my fluid and it looks the same way another gentleman had described, "looked like a bloody mary mix". Lots of rust in the system. As such I had everything flushed and the caliper taken apart to get make sure it was in good working condition. New fluid was put in and I was on my way. However, I got about 10 miles and my break started doing the same thing. Very Frustrating. I just got off the phone and It looks like we will flush the system again and put on two new calipers. Hopefully that will do the trick. If anyone else has gone this route please let me know. Some additional insight would be much appreciated. Also, if anyone knows a good place get new calipers for this trailer let me know. Thanks!

Most likely what happened is you got water in the brake system which can cause rust from the inside of the brake calipers as well as the master cylinder. This happens to many or most trailer designs if you're not careful... Look at where the brake fluid reservoir is on the trailer tongue. It's not sealed in order for the system to vent and not form a vacuum under use. If you back the trailer in too far or are on a shallow ramp, the tongue and reservoir go underwater and water gets into the reservoir displacing the brake fluid, then can work its way though the system to the calipers and cause rust and seizing. The only way to prevent this is to be aware of the potential wat contamination, attempt to keep the trailer tongue above water, and if it gets dunked inspect the reservoir and/or flush the system. From what I've heard, this is not a Mastercraft problem but a common design among essentially all boat trailers using surge brakes.

One would think somebody would design surge brakes that had a vent above any potential water level, but either nobody has thought of that or there is a g pod technical reason that's a bad idea.

(Incidentally - I am not a brake expert by any means, but was forced to start learning and reading about surge brakes because I was having problems with mine that none of the mechanics I use could figure out on their own)