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memphis23
05-15-2012, 11:06 AM
I have a PS 190 and the installer is coming out to do an install. I have a Roswell 4 channel 500 watt amp.

Questions: Can I run two r6 tower speakers on 2 of the channels and then Run the 10 inch sub woofer on one of the channels and then run all 4 of the inside speakers from the last channel.

I know I will lose the Balance and Fade that is not a concern if I can get a little cleaner sound out of my smaller speakers that are in the boat???

thanks

mzimme
05-15-2012, 11:19 AM
If it was me, I'd get another 2 channel amp. Wire the sub bridged between two channels on your Roswell amp, and run all 4 interior speaekrs on the other two channels, then get another 2 channel amp and bridge the tower speakers to that amp.

Running 4 speakers on 1 channel will create a ton of resistance and you'll really cut into the power delivery to each speaker.


To make it sound best with what you have, bridge the two tower speakers between channel 1 and 2, and use channels 3 and 4 to bridge the sub. Run the high pass filter on channels 1 and 2, and run the low pass filter on channels 3/4. Keep all the interior speakers hooked up to the head unit, and also run any sort of built in equilizer to not allow anything less than 80hz to the interior speakers. This will help reduce distortion while running those speakers from your head unit and let them get louder. The sub will help take care of the low's that you'll be missing from the interior speakers.

Don't try to hook all of that up to a single amp though...

memphis23
05-15-2012, 12:08 PM
Thanks for the comment

I am also having a problem with my radio turning off when I turn it up. From reading other threads they say that I need to have better voltage going to the radio. I was wondering since the amp must be turned on manually could I run the power from the amp to the radio and just turn the radio on when I turn the amp on?

mzimme
05-15-2012, 12:18 PM
The amp shouldn't need to be turned on manually. There will be a blue "remote" wire coming out of the rear of your head unit, and that wire is a signal wire that runs to the amplifier's "remote" terminal. Whenever your head unit turns on, the amp should automatically power up due to the head unit sending a signal through the remote wire to your amp.

Do not run a power wire from your amplifier to your head unit. The 12v supply your head unit is hooked up to currently should provide plenty of power to keep the thing on. If it's cutting out, I'd suspect you have other issues somewhere. If anything, run a separate power wire from your head unit to your battery (with an in line fuse), but don't connect that wire to your amps (+) terminal.

memphis23
05-15-2012, 12:38 PM
thanks

I think I will run a wire with an inline fuse as you suggested. The installer is coming out Thursday I will keep you posted. I hope he is as informed as you

memphis23
05-15-2012, 12:40 PM
Can I mount the amp to the sub woofer box? or is that too much vibration?

JimN
05-15-2012, 01:07 PM
I have a PS 190 and the installer is coming out to do an install. I have a Roswell 4 channel 500 watt amp.

Questions: Can I run two r6 tower speakers on 2 of the channels and then Run the 10 inch sub woofer on one of the channels and then run all 4 of the inside speakers from the last channel.

I know I will lose the Balance and Fade that is not a concern if I can get a little cleaner sound out of my smaller speakers that are in the boat???

thanks

No- that would be a bad system design. This is a stereo amp and your head unit is stereo. Use the amp and head unit in the way they were designed and don't cheap out on amplification. You'll like the system more and teh speakers won't die prematurely, assuming everything is installed & set up correctly.

JimN
05-15-2012, 01:09 PM
thanks

I think I will run a wire with an inline fuse as you suggested. The installer is coming out Thursday I will keep you posted. I hope he is as informed as you

The blue wire shouldn't need a fuse. If it shorts to ground, the head unit's circuit will probably just shut down because it can't drive enough current to cause a problem. If it shorts to +, the head unit will be damaged, whether it's fused. or not.

What gauge is the power cable? The photos show what looks like 4ga, or larger. This is critical- it needs to be adequate for the amplifier's demand.

JimN
05-15-2012, 01:11 PM
Can I mount the amp to the sub woofer box? or is that too much vibration?

If the box is well-made, it shouldn't be a problem. If it's 1/2" material, I wouldn't mount it directly on the box- I would mount a thicker panel on the box before mounting the amp on that panel. Use spacers to get the amp off of the box or whatever it will be mounted on- it will run cooler and live longer.

memphis23
05-15-2012, 01:12 PM
great stuff!

thanks

mzimme
05-15-2012, 01:22 PM
The blue wire shouldn't need a fuse. If it shorts to ground, the head unit's circuit will probably just shut down because it can't drive enough current to cause a problem. If it shorts to +, the head unit will be damaged, whether it's fused. or not.

What gauge is the power cable? The photos show what looks like 4ga, or larger. This is critical- it needs to be adequate for the amplifier's demand.

Hopefully I was clear when I said that the blue wire is for the remote signal, and the in-line fuse would be used if he were to run his head units 12v power supply all the way to the battery. The fuse would need to be in line on that 12v supply wire, not the remote signal wire. If not, that's what I was referring to.

memphis23
05-15-2012, 02:58 PM
Yes you were clear.

I think I must have low voltage at my dash so I am looking for a way to clean things up. Every time I turn on my bilge pump the gauges jump. every-time I turn anything on for that matter the gauges jump. My volt gauge usually starts a little above 12 then works its way back down to 12 while I am running I have a new yellow top optima battery with new connections so I think I am ok there???

That is why I think I should run the radio power line directly to the battery with a inline fuse. I had someone tell me I should change my ignition key wire to a thicker gauge I am just not educated enough to start changing my dash wiring.

thanks again this place is so helpful

JimN
05-15-2012, 07:04 PM
Hopefully I was clear when I said that the blue wire is for the remote signal, and the in-line fuse would be used if he were to run his head units 12v power supply all the way to the battery. The fuse would need to be in line on that 12v supply wire, not the remote signal wire. If not, that's what I was referring to.

Oh- looked like it was going on the blue wire.

If I was going to use a clean power feed for the head unit, I would do this for + and ground and take it from the distribution blocks that are used for the amp, assuming it's relatively close. The OEM switched lead can be used to latch a relay for the red wire. Also, the head unit's ground wire should be looped to the stud on the rear, with the new ground wire attached to the same point. Even if the amp is on the other side of the boat, it's a lot less likely to have a ground loop this way.

JimN
05-15-2012, 07:04 PM
Yes you were clear.

I think I must have low voltage at my dash so I am looking for a way to clean things up. Every time I turn on my bilge pump the gauges jump. every-time I turn anything on for that matter the gauges jump. My volt gauge usually starts a little above 12 then works its way back down to 12 while I am running I have a new yellow top optima battery with new connections so I think I am ok there???

That is why I think I should run the radio power line directly to the battery with a inline fuse. I had someone tell me I should change my ignition key wire to a thicker gauge I am just not educated enough to start changing my dash wiring.

thanks again this place is so helpful

You're not trying to power the amp by using a wire that's already under the dash, are you? You can't do that and have the system work.

memphis23
05-15-2012, 07:33 PM
No the amp is coming straight from the battery terminals.

So You are saying that I should leave the head unit ground as it is (looped on the back of the unit) and tie the + into the distribution box at the amp for good current?

JimN
05-15-2012, 08:16 PM
No the amp is coming straight from the battery terminals.

So You are saying that I should leave the head unit ground as it is (looped on the back of the unit) and tie the + into the distribution box at the amp for good current?

Also, the head unit's ground wire should be looped to the stud on the rear, with the new ground wire attached to the same point.

Best practice for adding an amplifier is to run heavy power and ground wires to the area like you did, with a distribution block for each. Don't use this power and ground for anything other than the audio/video (if it has any) equipment. Anything in the system should take power from the distribution blocks to avoid ground loops and noise problems, which are always caused by resistance between the head unit and amp or any other equipment connected to the head unit and amp. The point of looping the head unit's ground wire is to connect the ground for the internal circuitry AND the chassis. Connecting the new ground wire and the head unit's ground wire to the chassis guarantees that the chassis and circuitry are at the same potential, i.e., no resistance between them. Voltage is potential energy and if there's a difference in potential, or voltage, current will have to flow between them to make up the difference and that's a classic ground loop- it usually uses the audio cables as the path and when DC voltage shows up on an AC conductor (audio or video signal path), it makes noise.

gotta_ski
05-16-2012, 03:19 AM
JimN, that may be one of the most useful posts I've ever seen on here. Well written and very clear. Nice work.

memphis23
05-18-2012, 10:11 AM
The amp is installed and the head unit still cuts out when the volume is turned up.

We changed the power to go directly to the brand new yellow top battery and still same result. My installer says the unit is bad. (does everyone agree???)

and

If I need a new head unit please tell me which one is the best for the money?

thanks

JimN
05-18-2012, 10:48 AM
The amp is installed and the head unit still cuts out when the volume is turned up.

We changed the power to go directly to the brand new yellow top battery and still same result. My installer says the unit is bad. (does everyone agree???)

and

If I need a new head unit please tell me which one is the best for the money?

thanks

Are the head unit's speaker wires bare, or were they cut off, cleanly. If the head unit is still connected to speakers, check the speakers.

Are you turning the volume up all the way? That's a good way to cause this. Is the bass control turned up all the way? That will cause it, too.

memphis23
05-18-2012, 11:12 AM
The head unit is still connected to the speakers.

The volume is cutting out at a very low volume level. The boat is new to me so I don't know the history.

I did turn the bass all the way off to try to get the volume to go up further but is still shuts off at the same level everytime.

JimN
05-18-2012, 11:21 AM
The head unit is still connected to the speakers.

The volume is cutting out at a very low volume level. The boat is new to me so I don't know the history.

I did turn the bass all the way off to try to get the volume to go up further but is still shuts off at the same level everytime.

Disconnect it from the speakers and measure each speaker wire for resistance. If you see anything below 3 Ohms, you have a bad speaker or a shorted wire. Look at the connections at both ends- any stray wire strands will cause a problem. You can disconnect one speaker at a time but you still need to check the resistance. FYI- you're not checking impedance, just DC resistance.

memphis23
05-18-2012, 11:38 AM
I will do that this evening. thanks

memphis23
05-19-2012, 03:01 PM
3 out of 4 blown speakers U R a Genius! thanks

I think I want to put in some more Roswell speakers to match my tower r6's that will fit but everyone keeps talking about polk

what do you think????

JimN
05-19-2012, 08:21 PM
3 out of 4 blown speakers U R a Genius! thanks

I think I want to put in some more Roswell speakers to match my tower r6's that will fit but everyone keeps talking about polk

what do you think????

Don't feel obligated to buy a brand of speakers just because the amp is the same. Speakers sound different from each other- amps are a lot more similar in sound. Find the ones that sound good to you and don't pay much attention to the specs- they're usually not honest. You won't need them to handle much bass and the amp's filters (HP and LP) should definitely be used.

memphis23
05-21-2012, 09:59 AM
Well I ended up taking the speakers off one at a time to find that 3 out of 4 speakers were blown. I took the one good speaker and plugged it into each of the speaker connections and it would allow me to turn the volume up all the way. So I bought 4 new speakers feeling confident that was the solution. NOT. When I plugged all my new speakers in at the same time I had the same problem. (lucky I neede to replace the speakers anyway) So now I have a new head unit to put in tonight. If I still have a problem after that I may get a baseball bat

JimN
05-21-2012, 11:04 AM
Well I ended up taking the speakers off one at a time to find that 3 out of 4 speakers were blown. I took the one good speaker and plugged it into each of the speaker connections and it would allow me to turn the volume up all the way. So I bought 4 new speakers feeling confident that was the solution. NOT. When I plugged all my new speakers in at the same time I had the same problem. (lucky I needed to replace the speakers anyway) So now I have a new head unit to put in tonight. If I still have a problem after that I may get a baseball bat

Take your multi-meter and measure from each speaker wire to the tower- set it to continuity, auto-ranging. Each wire, not each pair of wires. also, check between each wire and all of the others- if you have shorts between channels, the head unit will puke because of this .If you see ANY continuity, you'll have a problem. If you do, you'll need to replace the wires.

It's possible that the amplifier chips in the head unit were damaged by the shorted speakers. If this is the case and you won't be connecting the speakers directly to the head unit, you can still use that one by opening it and looking for a harness that connects to the amplifier section (this has an aluminum heat sink with two or four chips on it). Unplug the harness and try it with only the line outs connected to an amp- it should work fine.

BTW- turning the volume up all the way is bad for the speakers and head unit. EVERY head unit will distort at that level, period. If you used it that way, it's no big surprise that your speakers blew. It's like starting your car and putting your foot to the floor, waiting for parts to fly through the hood.

memphis23
09-09-2012, 10:32 AM
Mzimme: I know this is an old one but I have still been struggling and I think I am going to wire it like you have said here but with different equipment. Now I have a 5 channel Fusion 1600 watt class D amp with a Fusion ip-700 Head unit.

"To make it sound best with what you have, bridge the two tower speakers between channel 1 and 2, and use channels 3 and 4 to bridge the sub. Run the high pass filter on channels 1 and 2, and run the low pass filter on channels 3/4. Keep all the interior speakers hooked up to the head unit, and also run any sort of built in equilizer to not allow anything less than 80hz to the interior speakers. This will help reduce distortion while running those speakers from your head unit and let them get louder. The sub will help take care of the low's that you'll be missing from the interior speakers."

In looking at the back of the Head unit I get running the interior speakers wiring it is pretty straight forward for Zone 1 and Zone 2 but when it comes to the amp and sub and tower speakers I get a little confused.The Head unit instructions show that it has 4 other Zones for more amps and Sirius xm and Tv etc...

My questions are:

The head has unit has 4 separate RCA connections(Zones) and all have 3 Rca connections on each plug labeled R, L,S the amp has only 3 input locations FR,FL/ RR, RL / SUB,SUB

I am getting confused on where to plug the RCA wires going to the amp and how to wire to the speakers coming out of the amp.

Should I use Zone 1 from the Head Unit and only plug the R,L (not using the S on the RCA plug) into FR,FL on the amp for only one of the Tower speakers?

and then plug Zone 2 R,L output into the RR, RL on the amp for the other Tower speaker

and lastly and this is confusing to me. I use only the S on the RCA plug labeled R,L,S plug from Zone 3 on the Head unit to the amp for the SUB, SUB? Dont I need 2 wires going to the sub?

Does anything need to bridge and how and where would bridge anything? since I am only running 2 tower speakers and a sub with a 5 channel amp?

Does this make sense?

JimN
09-09-2012, 11:27 AM
Mzimme: I know this is an old one but I have still been struggling and I think I am going to wire it like you have said here but with different equipment. Now I have a 5 channel Fusion 1600 watt class D amp with a Fusion ip-700 Head unit.

"To make it sound best with what you have, bridge the two tower speakers between channel 1 and 2, and use channels 3 and 4 to bridge the sub. Run the high pass filter on channels 1 and 2, and run the low pass filter on channels 3/4. Keep all the interior speakers hooked up to the head unit, and also run any sort of built in equilizer to not allow anything less than 80hz to the interior speakers. This will help reduce distortion while running those speakers from your head unit and let them get louder. The sub will help take care of the low's that you'll be missing from the interior speakers."

In looking at the back of the Head unit I get running the interior speakers wiring it is pretty straight forward for Zone 1 and Zone 2 but when it comes to the amp and sub and tower speakers I get a little confused.The Head unit instructions show that it has 4 other Zones for more amps and Sirius xm and Tv etc...

My questions are:

The head has unit has 4 separate RCA connections(Zones) and all have 3 Rca connections on each plug labeled R, L,S the amp has only 3 input locations FR,FL/ RR, RL / SUB,SUB

I am getting confused on where to plug the RCA wires going to the amp and how to wire to the speakers coming out of the amp.

Should I use Zone 1 from the Head Unit and only plug the R,L (not using the S on the RCA plug) into FR,FL on the amp for only one of the Tower speakers?

and then plug Zone 2 R,L output into the RR, RL on the amp for the other Tower speaker

and lastly and this is confusing to me. I use only the S on the RCA plug labeled R,L,S plug from Zone 3 on the Head unit to the amp for the SUB, SUB? Dont I need 2 wires going to the sub?

Does anything need to bridge and how and where would bridge anything? since I am only running 2 tower speakers and a sub with a 5 channel amp?

Does this make sense?

You need to read the manual- it should clear up some of the details. Unfortunately, if they haven't re-written it since I called them to tell them that their pdf version is one of the worst I have seen, read the paper version if they sent one with the head unit.

Before you start, measure the resistance on all speakers and make sure you have no measurable connection to the tower from any wire, as I mentioned before. If you see anything less than three Ohms on a pair of wires (this could be from using one speaker cable (one positive and one negative) for each channel to the tower speakers and making the connections to the speakers at the top.

First, if you will have any speakers that don't need to be amplified by the power amp, run those from the head unit (cabin speakers, most likely). If you decide to run the cabin speakers from the head unit AND HAVE FRONT/REAR FADER ABILITY, use Zone 3 for the tower speakers. This will allow you to fade the cabin speakers and not affect the level of the tower speakers. I would recommend connecting the sub input of the amp to match the level of the tower speakers and then vary its level by using the bass control knob.

Connect the Zone 1 and Zone 2 outputs (R and L from each) to the amplifier. You will need two stereo RCA cables and either a single RCA cable or another stereo cable. You don't need to use more than one subwoofer input if you will be controlling all zones without selecting one and this is covered in the manual's section about using the "controller" (main knob). Connect the phone cable to the amp and find a convenient location for the sub's level controller. This is only a control wire, so routing it near power wires won't cause any problems.

Mark the speaker wires and audio cables, as to their purpose. This will make assigning amp channels easier.

Connect the speaker wires to the amp- if you want to power the tower speakers together and you have bow/cabin speakers that you want to power from the amp, use Front for Zone one set and Rear for Zone 2. The only reason Front and Rear are used is because of the standard convention for designating this in car audio.

Bridging-
You shouldn't need to bridge anything. Also, if the tower speakers are wired parallel, you can't bridge the amp- bridged amp channels need to see 4 Ohms, in most cases. The difference in output from this doesn't justify using all four channels to drive one set of speakers.

The boat where I installed this head unit/amp combination is a 32' trawler with four ceiling speakers (also Fusion) and an MTX subwoofer below the walkway, firing through a vent panel in the starboard side, behind the sofa. It's freaking loud! Adding the four speakers at the fly bridge and the two in the cockpit pillars- people hear this boat before they see it.

The manual describes how to set the levels- DO THAT. Once the levels are set and you find that one set is too loud, DECREASE the level of the louder speaker channels, never boost the channels that aren't loud enough.

POWER CABLE-
Make sure the power cables are appropriate for the load. This amp will draw a lot of current if driven hard, especially if the speaker load is 2 Ohms. If the shop ran 4 ga and it's not more than about 12', you should be OK. If it's heavier, you won't need to worry about the gauge. Find out where they ran the ground cable. If they took the shortest route and attached it to the engine block, it needs to be replaced by a new one that goes directly to the battery's negative post.

Traxx822
09-10-2012, 12:23 AM
Jim, I did not want to go through all that. Nice post.

Memphis. IMHO this all may be way over your head. A real professional install is what I would recommend. Then if anything isn't like you want it they fix it. No more plausible baseball bat ;)

From what I remember your cockpit speakers could only handle 45 watts each. Even your head unit gives out more than that. so with that being said prepare to buy 4 more soon. And listen to Jim about the zones etc or you will have it all hooked up and forget what zone to set your amp on and it won't work at all.

Do you have a fuse in between all your amps head unit and battery? Good way to burn your boat if you dont. I'm running 0ga for power to blocks to 4ga for amps. 16 ga speaker wire. and all gold stinger rca's. Properly supply your amp requires the right size wire for it to get through.

memphis23
09-10-2012, 08:15 AM
Traxx: yes to the fuse. I have the same wire configuration as you 16 ga and 4 ga and stringers for the RCA's. I can't remember on the **** pit speakers maybe 75 watts.

JimN.Yes very good info. First off I thought I had the amp manual but it was the head unit manual. I finally found the amp manual and as small as it is the info is very straight forward. I will be running only zone 1 and zone 2 for the tower speakers and the sub, cabin speakers will get the head unit. I will keep you posted. I ran into something else yesterday when I started this project. Head unit won't fit. I will send pics after I figure out how I am going to modify the dash.

cheers

JimN
09-10-2012, 08:50 AM
Traxx: yes to the fuse. I have the same wire configuration as you 16 ga and 4 ga and stringers for the RCA's. I can't remember on the **** pit speakers maybe 75 watts.

JimN.Yes very good info. First off I thought I had the amp manual but it was the head unit manual. I finally found the amp manual and as small as it is the info is very straight forward. I will be running only zone 1 and zone 2 for the tower speakers and the sub, cabin speakers will get the head unit. I will keep you posted. I ran into something else yesterday when I started this project. Head unit won't fit. I will send pics after I figure out how I am going to modify the dash.

cheers

They have the manuals on their website, too. Just google Fusion Electronics, click on Marine head units, amps, speakers or whatever and look on the page for the documents.

How much larger is it, or is it the width of the flange that's causing the problem?

memphis23
09-10-2012, 10:37 AM
The width is fine. The fusion Head unit slides in the existing hole fine until you try to open the face. At that point I need about 1/2" more clearance on the bottom. When I open the face it buts into the flat section of the fiberglass.

JimN
09-10-2012, 11:02 AM
The width is fine. The fusion Head unit slides in the existing hole fine until you try to open the face. At that point I need about 1/2" more clearance on the bottom. When I open the face it buts into the flat section of the fiberglass.

Can you post a photo of the opening?

memphis23
09-10-2012, 11:16 AM
Yes I will sometime after 5