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View Full Version : Thoughts on sub install for 205V?


Rossterman
05-10-2012, 09:28 PM
Just bought my first mastercraft. Came with clarion M255' arc audio 600watt 4 channel amp, 4 6.5 arc speakers/ cans on the tower, arc equalizer, stock clarions in the cabin and a bazooka marine non powered sub enclosure stuck under the driver side bow cushion. I must say, for $2,500 it sounds terrible. Checked the sub and was 1/2 full of water and not working.

So, to my question, there seems to be a cutout for a sub in the drivers footwell- what do folks recommend putting in that would help improve the sound of this system?

Also, i think they have the 4cabin speakers wired to the head unit and the amp driving the sub and 4 tower speakers. Is this the best way or should i rewire differently?

Any thought or ideas would be great!

Thanks
Ross

swatguy
05-10-2012, 11:08 PM
You can always add an amp to the cabins to get them sounding better.......As for the sub. I took out my kick panel on the drivers side and built a custom sealed box using the template from the kick panel as the front of the box. If you spec the box right it will just slide in and out all in one piece.

HEres a real old thread with finished product

http://mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=23421

JimN
05-10-2012, 11:13 PM
[QUOTE=Rossterman;838127]Just bought my first mastercraft. Came with clarion M255' arc audio 600watt 4 channel amp, 4 6.5 arc speakers/ cans on the tower, arc equalizer, stock clarions in the cabin and a bazooka marine non powered sub enclosure stuck under the driver side bow cushion. I must say, for $2,500 it sounds terrible. Checked the sub and was 1/2 full of water and not working.

So, to my question, there seems to be a cutout for a sub in the drivers footwell- what do folks recommend putting in that would help improve the sound of this system?

Also, i think they have the 4cabin speakers wired to the head unit and the amp driving the sub and 4 tower speakers. Is this the best way or should i rewire differently?

Any thought or ideas would be great!

Thanks
Ross[/

QUOTE]

If you want a lot more volume from the speakers that are connected to the head unit, you'll definitely need an amp. 50W won't be enough, even though you'll hear a difference in how loud it is. All of the speaker channels except the sub(s) should be run using the high pass filter. 80W-100W/channel would be a good number unless you want it really, really loud and that will be a good way to have PO'd homeowners and boaters in the area.

Rossterman
05-11-2012, 12:25 PM
Looks like its cutout in the bulkhead accomodates a 10" sub. See kenwood has a sub/amp combo for $175 and other brands like JL and wetsounds are more money. Has anyone tried the kenwood setup? Is it worth spending more for one of the other brands?

One consideration is the old sub was powered by a arc audio 600watt 4channel amp (i'm thinking 2 channels were bridged for the amp (through the equalizer as it has a subwoofer volume control) and the other 2 channels were sent to the 4 tower speakers. Tried another speaker on the subwoofer wires and no sound. Not sure if there is a fuse blown somewhere or some channels of the amp don't work.

Was thinking if the amp turns out ok, i could add a descreet subwoofer amp and rewire the 4 cabin speakers (stock clarions) to the amp for better sound then i'm getting running off the head unit. Does this sound workable? I mean, can you connect two speakers to each channel (bow and cabin) to one channel on an amp without overloading it?

Thanks for all the help and suggestions
Ross

mzimme
05-11-2012, 12:40 PM
If you're talking about this subwoofer/amp combo, I have one in my car:

http://a248.e.akamai.net/pix.crutchfield.com/ImageHandler/fixedscale/400/300/products/2005/113/x113KSCWD2-f.jpeg

For a little car to add some extra bass, it sounds fine. I've had it on a boat as well, and it performs ok. I had it just under the footwell area of the passenger on an old boat I had, it wasn't sealed up or enclosed anywhere. It sounds good, and is a decent cheap option, but for some real hard hitting bass I would pass on the kenwood unit. The highs tend to drown the sub out very quickly if you have an amp on the highs. The sub just doesn't keep getting louder and hitting harder... just not enough power.

For $175, you'd probably be better off finding a budget sub and amp as two separate components and going that route. God knows my Jensen 500W amp and 2 12" rockford Fosgate subs hit REALLY hard in my mustang back in high school, and that setup didn't cost me over 200 bucks, haha. Did it sound good? No... Was it loud? Yep!

JimN
05-11-2012, 12:43 PM
One consideration is the old sub was powered by a arc audio 600watt 4channel amp (i'm thinking 2 channels were bridged for the amp (through the equalizer as it has a subwoofer volume control) and the other 2 channels were sent to the 4 tower speakers. Tried another speaker on the subwoofer wires and no sound. Not sure if there is a fuse blown somewhere or some channels of the amp don't work.

Was thinking if the amp turns out ok, i could add a descreet subwoofer amp and rewire the 4 cabin speakers (stock clarions) to the amp for better sound then i'm getting running off the head unit. Does this sound workable? I mean, can you connect two speakers to each channel (bow and cabin) to one channel on an amp without overloading it?

Thanks for all the help and suggestions
Ross

How well the amp handles speaker loads depends on the design. Some handle it well and some puke as soon as they see 2 Ohms. First thing I would do is check out the ARC amp to see if it works at all, then how well it works. I just installed a Fusion Electronics amp yesterday and it was very good. Fairly new company as far as the US market but the MS-DA51600 puts out 80/ch x 4 plus 240 x 1 and it's bridgeable, has HP/LP crossovers, comes with a subwoofer level control, it's small, made for marine and is less than $400 if you buy it from some dealers. I like it and I'm pretty dam picky about this stuff. This one went into a Mainship 32' and it's connected to the sub, a pair of Fusion speakers in the saloon with two pairs of speakers (wired parallel) on the fly bridge. We didn't need to turn the volume controls for any of the 4 zones past halfway (we're using a Fusion Electronics MS-IP700 head unit).

brucemac
05-11-2012, 03:31 PM
what's your budget

Rossterman
05-11-2012, 05:19 PM
what's your budget

Well, i could probably afford most anything but wanted to get something good but not over the top expensive. Using the computer shovpping anology, i'd like to find something with 80% of the quality at 50% of the price. Is there something better than the kenwood but not as expensive as the jl audio or wetsounds stuff?

g-Dog
05-11-2012, 05:32 PM
I just got finished upgrading the stereo in my 2002 205V.

Alpine CDA-9886M $280
Alpine PDX-4.100M $370
Alpine PDX-1.600M $210
Polk MMC6500 (2) $150
Polk MMC690 (2) $100
Polk MM650 (2) $100
JL Audio 12W6v2-D4 $200
Alpine RF Remote $40

The only used item was the JL Audio sub which I found on Craigslist. It sounds unbelieveable for $1500.:D I wasn't too sure about the Alpine amps but I'm glad I chose them.

mzimme
05-11-2012, 05:39 PM
I've had alpine amps almost exclusively for the past 10 years. I love them.

mzimme
05-11-2012, 05:43 PM
Well, i could probably afford most anything but wanted to get something good but not over the top expensive. Using the computer shovpping anology, i'd like to find something with 80% of the quality at 50% of the price. Is there something better than the kenwood but not as expensive as the jl audio or wetsounds stuff?

Check the infinity basslink II.

Honestly, I think you'd be much happier with separate sub/amp components. Takes a little more effort to install it, but well worth the benefits. (clean sound, louder, etc)

brucemac
05-11-2012, 06:38 PM
I'm no expert by any means, but I'll share my advice and experience with a similar boat. Very first thing I'd do is 86 the clarion speakers. You didn't say what year, but I'm going to assume you have the component style sepeartes (the tweeters are in their own cups). I have an 03 X-2 (205V hull), so I'm betting the stock setup was similar. The newer JL 7.7's are very very nice, but they require a larger hole and the mid-driver in the bow requires a spacer due to mounting depth. Not a huge deal, but something to consider. The Wetsounds in-boats are nice, but you end up with a useless tweeter or hole as they're coaxial. I went with the Polk MM6501's and have been very happy. The tweeters press-fit into the white tweeter cups in the bow and the polk supplied cups fit in the cabin without modification. They're a solid speaker and marine rated. You just need to be sure you are running 100-125W RMS to each speaker minimum. The next thing I'd do is decide if your happy with the tower speakers. I went with Pro 80's, and have been happy, but I'm itching to upgrade to the new Rev10. Other's have been happy and rave about Exile, but I can't comment, they weren't around when I upgraded.

As far as the subwoofer is concerned. I'd skip trying to add anything under/behind the observer's seat. You won't hear it. Without any modification, the only thing you can do is go with a smaller sealed 10in or freeair sub behind the current kick panel. I don't know your listening habits, but I'm going to tell you that it likely won't cut it--at least the free air. The one thing I did wrong (twice!) is throw money at a subwoofer/amp combo that I instantly regretted and was unhappy with. I guess what I'm saying is do it right once and don't waste your money. The free air subs just aren't enough in my opinion, especially when they're trying to keep up with solid inboats and tower speakers. Your best bet is to work with an installer in your area to deign a custom box to either fit behind the kick panel, or design a custom box with a new false wall which may extend a little bit past where the current kick plate resides today. That's what I ended up doing. I went with a ported 10in Image Dynamics running at 600W RMS off of channels 5 and 6 on a Wetsounds Syn6.

It all really gets down to what you want from it, how much you want to spend, your listening habits, etc. I've been super happy with my setup and I really don't think you can go wrong if you do your homework. Just don't make the same mistake as I did and throw money at it incrementally. You'll be disapointed. Plan it, research and install it correctly the first time.

Good luck with it and have a great season!

JRW160
05-11-2012, 11:36 PM
I will respectfully disagree with brucemac. I have a 15" solo baric L7 under the observer's seat powered by a 1000w kicker amp, and it's plenty loud. If you need it louder, just flip up the top of the observer's seat. I have the stock sub disconnected. Under the driver's side seems like the ideal location for a sub, but I am pretty sure the 15" solo baric would rattle all of the screws in the dash loose after about 2 weeks. I just replaced my stock clarion interior speakers with exile 6.5s and they sound substantially better. They are running off a kicker zx 350.4. I also have rev10s on the tower powered by a syn4. I was running pro80s last year, and then upgraded to rev10s over the winter. The rev10s have a lot more midbass than the pro80s and are well worth the premium. I have a ws420 running everything.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-6vDYhjFDits/T63KBZa2XxI/AAAAAAAA5y8/rY3gh_ocULg/s640/IMG_20120511_211314.jpg

Lakeside09
05-11-2012, 11:57 PM
Nice set up JR... glad your supporting the exile interiors.... :cool:

On my X1 I really wanted a killer/loudest on the lake tower set up... so i went with the Exile Xm9's with harpoon amp... they are unbelievable... and most cant believe how clear and loud they are... big wow factor!

I went with Polk for my interior and my sub/amp set up. We built a custom box and used the factory precut hole under the dash for my 10" Polk MM sub running from the Polk PA880 amp. It hits hard harder than any other 10 I have heard. I wanted to budget out my sub to where it sounded really good in the boat but wasnt loud and unbearable to where it killed fish... lol. I'm pretty proud of the way it sounds and the install... I also am a firm believer in Polk if your doing a budget install and in all honesty the price might be budget but i promise you the sound quality isnt. I am going to do a post sometime about my audio set up.

Rossterman
05-12-2012, 01:06 PM
Well, did a little crawling around and found out the amp is an arc audio 5150 xxk 5channel amp with the followings specs:

4 ohms: 45 watts x 4 chan. + 190 watts x 1 sub channel (at 2 ohms)
2 ohms: 75 watts x 4 chan. + 190 watts x 1 sub channel (at 2 ohms)
4 ohms bridged: 150 watts x 2 chan. + 190 watts x 1 sub channel (at 2 ohms)

Looks to be pretty high quality with every knob/adjustment you could think of. So, was thinking of running the in cabin speakers (4) and sub using the amp and buying a separate amp for the tower speakers (4 arc audio lightenings). Maybe a bridgable 2channel with 2 speakers on each channel?

If so, how do i get rca outs for both amps? Do they make a y cable or do i need an additional piece of hardware (i remember as a teen something called a dual amp balancer)...

Thanks for everyone's help!
Ross

JRW160
05-12-2012, 03:35 PM
They make rca Y cables and a lot of amps have rca pass throughs.

agarabaghi
05-13-2012, 01:20 AM
http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/1006/imageghz.jpg

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/8425/imagejfa.jpg

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/930/imageztr.jpg

Rossterman
05-16-2012, 03:44 PM
Well, fiddled around with the existing components last night and it suddenly began working. Began going over the connections to make sure something wasn't loose or slightly corroded. Didn't find anything to speak of. Must say now that it is working, it sounded pretty good! Amp clearly has more power than the stock clarions can handle! I also hooked up a sub box I had lying around and that channel worked as well. Not sure if there is an intermittent problem with the amp (it has no fuses, just circuit breakers that auto reset if something is wrong) so will see if it continues to act up in the future. Good news is the Mfg is willing to repair or replace for $150 (retail cost of a replacement is over $600!). Now, I just need to get a sub and upgrade the stock clarions....

Read some good reviews on Polk Audio's stuff. Was thinking about using the MM1040D 10" dual voicecoil sub and DB651 6.5" coax's to replace the 4 clarions. Anyone used these or have any feedback on how well they work?

Thanks
Ross

BriEOD
05-16-2012, 05:47 PM
I agree with Casey and Bruce, put the sub under the dash. I bought a 12" Kicker and put it in a sealed box. After I built the box, I had it sprayed with truck bed liner. Than I modified the kick panel to fit around the sub box. I have been very happy with it. I have no doubt that if you put a big enough speaker and enough wattage behind it in the storage compartment under the the observer seat you will surely hear it. That said, I'm not willing to give up all of that valuable storage space when the kick panel is such a viable option.

brucemac
05-16-2012, 07:11 PM
lots of folks using the DB series and have been happy...

will likely work fine with your existing amp too (assuming there isn't an issue), so wouldn't have to upgrade.

my advice is to take it out on the water and see how it sounds, make sure there isn't still something going on and then go from there

best of luck

east tx skier
05-16-2012, 09:08 PM
If you go the Polk route, definitely check out the Polk Audio ebay store. The Master Monitor series subs from Polk in a correctly sized box sound great without having to dump a lot of power into them. I have an 8" MM under the bow that sounds like a 10" sub on moderate power from a 5 channel amp.

In the 205, the kick panel is your best option. But definitely protect the box. Much of it could be under the bow seating and that is by no means water tight.

Rossterman
05-20-2012, 01:41 PM
Thanks to all of you for help /suggestions. Amp seems to be working ok now and changed out the stock clarions to Polk db651's. Was blown away with how much better the polks sound!

Also ordered a Polk mm1040um for under the dash which should arrive this next week. This model is listed as a free air model but wondered if anyone has built a box that fit under the dash as reviews indicate sound will be much better. It looks pretty limited for space so not sure anything would even fit but maybe some folks have come up with something that worked well? Didn't want to build a false front, rather something that will fit closely around the sub. I'll throw some pics up later today when I have the depth gage install finished
Ross

Rossterman
05-20-2012, 06:36 PM
Got the sub in today and was surprised that it is hardly noticible. The sub channel of the amp is a solid 190watt @ .07 the but the pok db 6.5s put out more bass. Thinking I must have it miss tuned or the gain is too low??

Getting ready to post some pics

Ross

Rossterman
08-17-2012, 09:47 AM
After trying to tune the system to get the sub to deliver some punch, i decided to just add a dedicated subwoofer amp. Did a bunch of research and ended up buying a hifonics brutus 1200D. Tons of great reviews, 1ohm stable @1200 watts with Solid 450 watts @ 0.1 thd running 4 ohms and ce2006 certified so not some overrated power claims that are just a bunch of hogwash. Requires 4 guage wire and 150 amp fuse so definitely sucks some electricity!

Hooked it up today to the freeair sub and WOW!

EarmarkMarine
08-17-2012, 11:59 AM
Keep this in mind.
The Polk sub is used as an infinite baffle by Nautique but it is not a true infinite baffle woofer. There is no such thing as a jack of all trades woofer. A woofer is either great in one application or less than average in various applications. And the Polk is an air suspension woofer according to its Thiele/Small parameters. So that woofer requires a specific enclosure, especially with the power you are running.
A properly executed infinite baffle woofer can sound great by any standard but only up to a certain amplitude. Depending solely on the self damping of just the motor and mechanical suspension is limiting to a certain excursion. Go past that point and it will begin to sound soggy not to mention the woofer becomes vulnerable.
JL Audio makes true infinite baffle woofers that are specifically designed for this application and perform better....but still have an amplitude ceiling less than a corresponding air suspension woofer.

David

Rossterman
08-18-2012, 08:35 PM
Keep this in mind.
The Polk sub is used as an infinite baffle by Nautique but it is not a true infinite baffle woofer. There is no such thing as a jack of all trades woofer. A woofer is either great in one application or less than average in various applications. And the Polk is an air suspension woofer according to its Thiele/Small parameters. So that woofer requires a specific enclosure, especially with the power you are running.
A properly executed infinite baffle woofer can sound great by any standard but only up to a certain amplitude. Depending solely on the self damping of just the motor and mechanical suspension is limiting to a certain excursion. Go past that point and it will begin to sound soggy not to mention the woofer becomes vulnerable.
JL Audio makes true infinite baffle woofers that are specifically designed for this application and perform better....but still have an amplitude ceiling less than a corresponding air suspension woofer.

David


Interesting! So you are saying that free air and infinite baffle are different? Is there a way to tell as the polk spec sheet indicated it was free air so bought this model vs. their less expensive counter part.

EarmarkMarine
08-19-2012, 02:56 PM
Free-air and infinite baffle are the same. I just don't like to use the term "free air" because it leads some to believe that the woofer can be used without an enclosure, which isn't true. While an infinite baffle uses an expansive enclosure (typically 2.25 cu.ft. to infinity for a 10-inch) it still requires total front to rear acoustic isolation for a number of feet away from the woofer location. The Polk is neither free-air nor infinite baffle. The MM1040UM 'Qts' is .45 and the recommended enclosure to have the right system 'Qtc' (woofer loaded in enclosure) is .66 cu.ft. Not even close to infinite baffle. Opinions from non-expert sources may vary but the Theile/Small parameters always tell the real story.

David

Rossterman
05-05-2013, 02:37 PM
Thought I'd post an update as to where I'm at on the system:

Got the arc audio 5150xxk running the polk db651s in the cabins. Running at full pass as they seem to fill in the bass well

In order to make room for another amp, I pulled the hifonics 1200 brutus and bought a polk d1000.1 to run the sub and a polk 4000.4 to run the tower speakers (which I had switched to kicker 6500.2 hldc's).

Ended up putting the DVC mm1040 sub back in the boat to get more power out of the amp and more bass. Also fixed the kicker tube and hooked up to the arc audio sub channel. You can definitely hear (and feel) the bass now but still have to run the bass settings on the equalizer almost all the way up.

Once I got it all back together the arc amp didn't work on one of the channels so ordered a polk 5000.5 to replace it. Heard back from arc and they were sure one of the switches on the backplate were likely not fully switched or dirty and just needed to be operated back and forth a few times to get it to work. Did so and now it works fine!

Decided to keep the polk d5000.5 and put into the truck or use as a back up rather than swap out the arc as tired of crawling in and out of the boat!

Last project will be to build a sealed box for the sub to get a little tighter bass then call it a day!

Rossterman
05-10-2013, 06:43 PM
Planned to tackle the sub box this weekend while i have the drivers kick panel out working on the final parts of the ballast install (too many spring projects!). Planned to build the box internal dimensions to .66 cuft per specs and placing behind the panel, puttin the panel in place trace the kickpanel cutout onto the face of the box and pulling apart to cut and reinstall. Anyone have recommendations for a better way or done successfully this way before?

JRW160
05-11-2013, 01:53 AM
That sounds like a good plan. I'm going to try to move my 15 under the driver's kickpanel to gain some storage under the observer's seat. My pan is to put the box in and then trace the cutout on the kickpanel as well.

bcd
05-11-2013, 10:29 AM
Planned to tackle the sub box this weekend while i have the drivers kick panel out working on the final parts of the ballast install (too many spring projects!). Planned to build the box internal dimensions to .66 cuft per specs and placing behind the panel, puttin the panel in place trace the kickpanel cutout onto the face of the box and pulling apart to cut and reinstall. Anyone have recommendations for a better way or done successfully this way before?

You will notice a big improvement with the sub box addition. I didn't think to install everything to trace the kick panel cutout. I just cut everything to center the box, installed everything, and then cut support pieces to install under the box to support it.

One thing I did to help, was I predrilled the front of the sub box and kick panel so once I installed everything in for final install, it was easy and quick to get the two screwed together.

Retoxtony
05-11-2013, 02:07 PM
I built a sub box for my 205 last week in a similar way to how you describe. I wish I would have taken pics for you. I ended up using the kick panel itself as the front of the box. I built it so the box itself sits about 2 inches off the floor to help keep moisture off it and I have a support to help hold it up. The box itself is 3/4 inch MDF that I had sprayed with box liner inside and out. i built it slightly smaller than Kickers specs but i did use some polyfill. I ended up cutting a few inches off the top of the kick panel so the whole thing could slide into place without taking it apart. It worked out great, you can't see the material I cut off and it left me with more space under the dash for all the wiring.


Planned to tackle the sub box this weekend while i have the drivers kick panel out working on the final parts of the ballast install (too many spring projects!). Planned to build the box internal dimensions to .66 cuft per specs and placing behind the panel, puttin the panel in place trace the kickpanel cutout onto the face of the box and pulling apart to cut and reinstall. Anyone have recommendations for a better way or done successfully this way before?

Rossterman
05-11-2013, 05:48 PM
Box is done. 14" x 14 1/2" x 8.5" outside dimensions. Used 3/4" plywood and glued/screwed with SS screws. Added 4 each 1/2" pvc fittings for legs. Going to try to fit it into place now so hopefully i"ll be able to position behind the kick panel and put everything back together. Wish me luck that the only other cut i will need to make is for the speaker cutout!

Rossterman
05-12-2013, 02:45 AM
Gd...m kick panel is going to be the life of me :mad: . Screwed with it for an hour and had to walk away. Cut it down some and will try to fit it tomorrow.... More patience then...

Rossterman
05-12-2013, 11:41 PM
Took Retoxtony's suggestion and trimmed the top of the carpeted kick panel to where it was just above the medallion guage computer mounts. Was night and day easier to get the panel in and out with more room for the wiring looms to sit.

Put the sub in place to measure how high i needed to make the legs and mark out the hole. I pulled out, cut the hole, added the speaker connector, wired everything up and put the box in place and mounted the panel to the face. Installed the sub and was done. Must say, the sound is day and night better than with the free air sub! Here are some of the pics. Box is .66cuft internal and dimension on the OD are 14" wide, 14.5" tall, and 8.5" deep. I used 3/4 " ply instead of MFD as it seemed much stronger. Sprayed the inside and out with polyurathane clear and screwed/glued w/ SS screws and waterproof wood glue.