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View Full Version : MC Cruise, RPM or Speed Mode?


jkski
08-17-2005, 08:54 AM
I am running a slalom course on a regualr basis with my 05 PS197, and have tried both speed and RPM mode of the MC cruise, however, neither one seems to counter the skiers pull with more throttle, am I missing something?
Also, in previous boats, when I run 3600 RPM, the speed is 34mph, is this what you are finding? RPM mode seems to work better for the course, however, the speed doesn't seem to be constant. When I run the boat through the course without a skier at 3600 RPM, it seems to register a hot 34, but put a skier back there and it varies between 32 and a slow 34.
Short of installing Perfect Pass, do you have any advice?

MYMC
08-17-2005, 10:12 AM
Short of installing Perfect Pass, do you have any advice?
Install the Perfect Pass system...the MC Cruise was never intended to run actual times in a slalom course. It is/was intended for the vast majority of recreational skiers and wakeboarders that enjoy their respective sport in open water. The MC version does not make allowances for skier weight, crew weight, wind, and so on...in other words you can't get there from here. The good news is the upgrade is much less expensive than it used to be.

bigmac
08-17-2005, 10:28 AM
I am running a slalom course on a regualr basis with my 05 PS197, and have tried both speed and RPM mode of the MC cruise, however, neither one seems to counter the skiers pull with more throttle, am I missing something?
Also, in previous boats, when I run 3600 RPM, the speed is 34mph, is this what you are finding? RPM mode seems to work better for the course, however, the speed doesn't seem to be constant. When I run the boat through the course without a skier at 3600 RPM, it seems to register a hot 34, but put a skier back there and it varies between 32 and a slow 34.
Short of installing Perfect Pass, do you have any advice?

If you're pulling skiers through a course, then you want Perfect Pass Digital Pro because that's what it's designed to do. MC/Indmar's TBW will cover the speed-maintenance needs of the vast majority (IMHO) of MasterCraft's market, but for those relatively few boaters to whom nuts-on speed control is necessary or even highly desireable, RPM-based speed control such as MC Cruise, or even Wakeboard Pro, is going to be insufficient. If MasterCraft has concerns about price-point of their boats, then it's clear that TBW/MC Cruise, the basis of which is already built into the Indmar engines they use, is a FAR more cost-effective solution than installing an outside vendor's (Perfect Pass) solution at an additional $1000 a pop.

IMHO, Wakeboard Pro is no better than MC Cruise since they are really both just RPM-based speed control..



.

Ric
08-17-2005, 10:47 AM
I agree
go get Perfect Pass Digital Pro and ski your arse off!

jkski
08-17-2005, 10:57 AM
Thanks guys, I'll price it out and maybe that will be next years upgrade.
A friend of mine is having wakeboard pro put on his boat, so basically, from what you are telling me, his system will not be any better for running the course than mine is?

Thanks again.

Tom023
08-17-2005, 11:01 AM
IMHO, Wakeboard Pro is no better than MC Cruise since they are really both just RPM-based speed control..

.

Bigmac, I haven't studied my system too much to know, are you saying in MPH mode, the Wakeboard Pro is "RPM based"? Seems to me the two are distinctly different.

bigmac
08-17-2005, 11:20 AM
Thanks guys, I'll price it out and maybe that will be next years upgrade.
A friend of mine is having wakeboard pro put on his boat, so basically, from what you are telling me, his system will not be any better for running the course than mine is?

Thanks again.

Yep. Slalom mode on Wakeboard Pro is RPM-based. The only difference is that WP give you the option of re-calibrating an RPM point that corresponds to a particular speed. If you have three people in the boat and a skier, you select the slalom speed, and WP makes a guess, according to its initial programming, at the RPM that will give you that speed. If you find that it has guessed wrong, you have the option of calibrating the RPM baseline to match the speed. This will vary according to water conditions, wind, boat load, skier weight, etc etc, so you basically have to be prepared to recalibrate the baseline RPM every time you go out or change any of these conditions. It's enough of a nuisance that with my Wakeboard Pro, I use RPM mode for slalom and just remember the RPM's for each skier under those conditions, rather than pulling a guy up, setting him for 36 mph and finding that the RPMs that WP ha picked is really only 30 mph. So now, while pulling the guy, I have to enter calibration mode and bump the RPMs to match the actual speed. And then do the same thing with the next guy, or if someone gets out of the boat, or we head upwind instead of downwinds, etc.

Tom023
08-17-2005, 11:35 AM
Thanks, I only free ski so I just use the Wakeboard mode, not the Slalom mode. I think I was confused until I read the Perfect Pass website and learned it had two distinct modes (Slalom and Wakeboard), besides the MPH and RPM modes that are available in the Wakeboard mode setting. I just use Wakeboard mode and MPH for my boarding and free skiing and it holds the speed great. I found the RPM mode in the Wakeboard setting varies the speed too much if there is chop or a lot of rollers.

bigmac
08-17-2005, 11:40 AM
Bigmac, I haven't studied my system too much to know, are you saying in MPH mode, the Wakeboard Pro is "RPM based"? Seems to me the two are distinctly different.

No, Wakeboard mode on Wakeboard Pro is actual speed-based, taking the info from the paddlewheel, but only at speeds less than 25 mph. Anything faster than that, including Slalom mode, is RPM based.

The problem is that on MasterCraft's V-drive hulls, the paddlewheel placement is bad (too far forward), allowing turbulence to interfere with the boat's actual speed compared to what the paddlewheel thinks the speed is. The problem then becomes speed variations as the boat starts jerking around on the throttle, floundering (I'm exaggerating a little) trying to maintain a speed based on the highly variable information it's getting from the paddlewheel. I get those speed variations going from smooth water to light chop, for example because of the way those different water conditions affect the too-far-forward paddlewheel. I put this question on a couple of hydrofoil boards (as well as here) and found that the vast majority of wakeboarders and hydrofoilers use only RPM mode precisely because of those highly annoying (and potentially dangerous) speed variations in Wakeboard mode. I spent some time on the phone with tech support at Perfect Pass, and the guy told me that they knew it was a problem, that they have no influence over where MasterCraft decides to mount the paddlewheel, and that I should use RPM mode.

I'm told this is less of a problem with direct-drives as the paddlewheel is mounted farther back. Of course, if we're talking about optimum wakeboarding, we're talking about X boats with tower and V-drive, and therefore a Wakeboard Pro paddlewheel that is located in a bad position such that speed-based wakeboard mode is less-than-optimal.

My point is that, although wakeboard mode is indeed speed based, it is too inaccurate and potentially dangerous on MasterCraft's wakeboard boats, and most wakeboarders and hydrofoilers use RPM mode.

.

Tom023
08-17-2005, 11:47 AM
I guess I am one of the lucky ones for some reason, maybe the fact it's a 2001 and has different software, who knows. My speed control in MPH mode is rock solid unless I hit some rollers or big chop. It slows a bit in a turn and needs some time to catch up and then settle down again, but nothing more than a few seconds.

bigmac
08-17-2005, 11:51 AM
I guess I am one of the lucky ones for some reason, maybe the fact it's a 2001 and has different software, who knows. My speed control in MPH mode is rock solid unless I hit some rollers or big chop. It slows a bit in a turn and needs some time to catch up and then settle down again, but nothing more than a few seconds.

What boat?

I will say that I bumped my paddlewheel sampling (NN) from factory-set 80 to 160, increasing the paddlewheel sampling rate, and found that to be noticeably better at maintaining speed with less throttle-jockeying.

Ric
08-17-2005, 11:57 AM
Thanks guys, I'll price it out and maybe that will be next years upgrade.
A friend of mine is having wakeboard pro put on his boat, so basically, from what you are telling me, his system will not be any better for running the course than mine is?

Thanks again.
you won't like wakeboard pro in the slalom course but you should be able to get digital pro at a fair price for your dbw boat and it'll be much easier to install than a boat with a physical throttle cable.
If your course has magnets (most do even if you don't know it), then digital pro is the way to go
you will be amazed at how easy pulling slalom is in slalom mode in a course with magnets (you'll set your baseline rpm's once and go ski!)

Tom023
08-17-2005, 12:01 PM
I have a 2001 X30, but the software is different than what is now available. I'm going to check my manual and see what the differences are. I recall I have a kdw adjustment but didn't see anything else. I'll get the settings this weekend and let you know how they were originally set as I have not change anything.

bigmac
08-17-2005, 12:12 PM
I have a 2001 X30, but the software is different than what is now available. I'm going to check my manual and see what the differences are. I recall I have a kdw adjustment but didn't see anything else. I'll get the settings this weekend and let you know how they were originally set as I have not change anything.

IIUC, MasterCraft changes the settings on the PP units when they install them at the factory. I bought mine aftermarket from my dealer (so it would come with the MasterCraft-logo matching gauge) so it came with Perfect Pass factory settings.

Your PP unit uses software version 6.4, as opposed to 6.5n software on mine. The KdW and NN numbers aren't translateable, have different meanings between the two versions.

mlange
08-17-2005, 01:33 PM
Regarding the Wakeboard Pro/Digital Pro debate... they are EXACTLY the same. The only difference is that Digital Pro comes with a timing sensor.

When you first boot up PP it asks, among other things, if you will be using it for wakeboarding only. If you answer "yes", it becomes a Wakeboard Pro. If you answer "no", it becomes a Digital Pro. You can reboot PP and change this if your dealer messes it up or you just chance your mind. If you do reboot, it will forget all your baselines if I remember correctly, so you may want to write them all down. In short, if you don't run in a course with magnets, order Wakeboard Pro. You can always add the sensor later on if things change down the road for $150 or so.

Regarding your times being hot without a skier... the skier weight has a larger impact on this than you may think. For example, with PP the boat adds around 10rpm for every 10 lbs the skier weighs. There are some variables that come into play here like the Skier Factor, etc... but you get the picture.

Mike

Ric
08-17-2005, 01:35 PM
ya the brain is the same. You can ski digital pro with no paddlewheel for slalom, and you ski wakeboard pro with no magnet sensor, but without both options, it is not much use if switching between each mode.

Regarding the Wakeboard Pro/Digital Pro debate... they are EXACTLY the same. The only difference is that Digital Pro comes with a timing sensor.

When you first boot up PP it asks, among other things, if you will be using it for wakeboarding only. If you answer "yes", it becomes a Wakeboard Pro. If you answer "no", it becomes a Digital Pro. You can reboot PP and change this if your dealer messes it up or you just chance your mind. If you do reboot, it will forget all your baselines if I remember correctly, so you may want to write them all down. In short, if you don't run in a course with magnets, order Wakeboard Pro. You can always add the sensor later on if things change down the road for $150 or so.

Regarding your times being hot without a skier... the skier weight has a larger impact on this than you may think. For example, with PP the boat adds around 10rpm for every 10 lbs the skier weighs. There are some variables that come into play here like the Skier Factory setting, etc... but you get the picture.

Mike

mlange
08-17-2005, 01:48 PM
Huh?

I'm not suggesting you should switch back-n-forth. I'm simply saying that if you are trying to decide which to buy, the only difference is the timing sensor.

Regarding the sensor option, it is useless if you don't ski a course with magnets, so my argument is that there is no reason to spend the extra money on the Digital Pro.

Mike

MYMC
08-17-2005, 01:49 PM
My point is that, although wakeboard mode is indeed speed based, it is too inaccurate and potentially dangerous on MasterCraft's wakeboard boats, and most wakeboarders and hydrofoilers use RPM mode.
Whoa...huh? Dangerous? Most use RPM? On what would you base these claims?
I have had the distinct pleasure of working with Randy and Gary at Perfect Pass since 1997. In that time I have pulled numerous professional (& amateur) wakeboarders without incident or complaint in speed mode. This list would include Andrew Adkinson, Maeghan Major, Tara Hamilton, Leslie Kent, Zane Schwenk, Parks and Shane Bonifay, Darin Shapiro and others...in V-Drive and direct drive MasterCraft boats. My point is that while your statment may be your opinion is should not be put out there as fact.

Ric
08-17-2005, 01:57 PM
Huh?

I'm not suggesting you should switch back-n-forth. I'm simply saying that if you are trying to decide which to buy, the only difference is the timing sensor.

Regarding the sensor option, it is useless if you don't ski a course with magnets, so my argument is that there is no reason to spend the extra money on the Digital Pro.

Mike
The guy says he skis a course regularly

MYMC
08-17-2005, 01:58 PM
I will say that I bumped my paddlewheel sampling (NN) from factory-set 80 to 160, increasing the paddlewheel sampling rate
This is not an accurate statment...the sampling rate is fixed by the design of the program and the paddle wheel. What you have done is made the sample data pool larger. NN is simply the amount of data collected before a change is made. Most (99.9%) of MasterCraft owners that we have assisted via the web and phone whether through this site, wakeworld, MYMC or directly through Perfect Pass and MasterCraft have had their experience made better through LOWER NN numbers.

bigmac
08-17-2005, 02:22 PM
Whoa...huh? Dangerous? Most use RPM? On what would you base these claims?
I have had the distinct pleasure of working with Randy and Gary at Perfect Pass since 1997. In that time I have pulled numerous professional (& amateur) wakeboarders without incident or complaint in speed mode. This list would include Andrew Adkinson, Maeghan Major, Tara Hamilton, Leslie Kent, Zane Schwenk, Parks and Shane Bonifay, Darin Shapiro and others...in V-Drive and direct drive MasterCraft boats. My point is that while your statment may be your opinion is should not be put out there as fact.

Posted it on Yahoo hydrofoil groups and RPM mode was the distinct consensus. And dangerous based on at least the concept that a speed variation while doing some kind of aerial trick can result in line slack from a no-stretch rope that can have adverse, and yes, potentially dangerous, effect. Especialy when you're strapped to a 65 pound device with a 3 foot lever-arm. I grant you that the danger aspect might be a stretch, and yes, I certainly grant you than it's only my opinion.

As to NN sampling, I saw your post recommending DECREASING the NN to 50. That made the problem worse IMHO in my 230 pulling a hydrofoiler at 17 mph and pulling me on a hydrofoil at 21 mph, so I elected to follow Perfect Pass's recommendation in the manual:
NN (paddlweheel sampling) This follows KdW and represents the filter factor of the
paddlewheel. Typical values 120 – 160. Higher values
mean the system will sample more revolutions prior to
making a speed adjustment. If you feel the system should be
“smoother” try increasing the NN. This parameter only
affects the operation of Wakeboard mode.


And I should re-state that it was Perfect Pass tech support that recommended I use PRM mode because of the speed variations inherent in a too-far-forward paddlewheel.

mlange
08-17-2005, 02:33 PM
Ric,

He does not, however, say if the course he skis has magnets.

Mike

Ric
08-17-2005, 02:50 PM
Ric,

He does not, however, say if the course he skis has magnets.

Mike
Whoa, what is this, MBO?
I'll take this opportunity to welcome you to Team Mastecraft site Mike. You can play here as much as you want.
You are aware that most courses in use today have magnets?
I mentioned that earlier.
There wasn't really a "debate" and it makes little sense to suggest a wakeboard pro perfect pass to a guy who has mastercraft cruise AND ski's a slalom course regularly.

MYMC
08-17-2005, 03:07 PM
While I have a clear understanding of what the manual states it is a "generic" manual and is not specific to any one single boat company, therefore some latitude should be given.
Based on selling, servicing, skiing and wakeboarding behind MasterCraft Boats almost exclusively since 1999 I can only draw on my personal experience and the feedback provided to me by my customers and those that I have assisted in the past (including the manufacturers of these products).

As to the MasterCraft paddle wheel placement as I have written several times before it is not what I consider optimal in some models namely the old 210/X10 and X-Star (current model). That being said; however, for the vast majority of customers that have bought these models the placement has worked with little or no issue. Given the time these models have been in production and the shear number produced you would have to believe there would be more furor over this than just myself and a handful of customers spread over several model years.

Getting up in the morning is also dangerous but I don't go on forums extolling the virtue of staying in bed all day. The statement was inflammatory plain and simple. If you feel the system is "dangerous" then I would have it removed immediately...you should have no trouble selling it. Watersports are inherently dangerous and I would submit that the one or two tenths the systems operates within is more consistent (and therefore by your own logic safer) than all but a handful of human operators. If you disagree take a look at EVERY slalom record and EVERY wakeboard tournament result since about 1999.

bigmac
08-17-2005, 04:55 PM
While I have a clear understanding of what the manual states it is a "generic" manual and is not specific to any one single boat company, therefore some latitude should be given.
Based on selling, servicing, skiing and wakeboarding behind MasterCraft Boats almost exclusively since 1999 I can only draw on my personal experience and the feedback provided to me by my customers and those that I have assisted in the past (including the manufacturers of these products).

As to the MasterCraft paddle wheel placement as I have written several times before it is not what I consider optimal in some models namely the old 210/X10 and X-Star (current model). That being said; however, for the vast majority of customers that have bought these models the placement has worked with little or no issue. Given the time these models have been in production and the shear number produced you would have to believe there would be more furor over this than just myself and a handful of customers spread over several model years.

Getting up in the morning is also dangerous but I don't go on forums extolling the virtue of staying in bed all day. The statement was inflammatory plain and simple. If you feel the system is "dangerous" then I would have it removed immediately...you should have no trouble selling it. Watersports are inherently dangerous and I would submit that the one or two tenths the systems operates within is more consistent (and therefore by your own logic safer) than all but a handful of human operators. If you disagree take a look at EVERY slalom record and EVERY wakeboard tournament result since about 1999.


Thanks for the input, Mike.

.

jkski
08-18-2005, 11:17 AM
Thanks again for all the advice. The course I ski does have the magnets, and I ski behind several other boats that have PP Digital Pro with the sensors. One of the boats we are adding to the rotation is having PP Wakeboard Pro installed, so basically, if I am understanding everything correctly, it is not going to be much better than my MC Cruise? OR, can I adjust it to make it better, by playing with it to take into account the conditions each time I pull a skier?

mlange
08-18-2005, 11:52 AM
Just have the person adding WB Pro to their boat buy the sensor, plug it into the PP master module, reboot PP to get it into Digital Pro mode and you will have PP Digital Pro.

Skier-to-Skier has the sensor for $175.

Mike

Kevin 89MC
08-18-2005, 12:00 PM
Yeah, what Mike said, exactly. I just did this, works perfectly. skiertoskier.com is the cheapest place I found. Shipped right away. Out of curiosity, I opened up the "smart timer", it is a rather odd device-there are two nails(!) pointing at some kind of sensor on a circuid board. The nails made it look kinda . . . home made. But it works . . .
Kevin

MYMC
08-18-2005, 12:10 PM
jkski, what Kevin and mlange advise you is correct (except for the price thing I'm sure I can beat it ;) ); however, if you should choose to add this to your 2005 you'll need the dealer to "re-flash" the ecm. Also set-up with the DBW systems is a little different due to the addition of the CS parmeter. If you do go this route I'll be more than happy to walk to assist if needed.

redline
08-18-2005, 12:13 PM
The MC cruise, unlike PP, uses the same software code for both speed and rpm mode. The difference is that RPM allows you to be more specific in your speed request. This system was designed for general pulling applications which is what the majoity of MC owners have requested. In your case, you might need to upgrade to the PP so that you can drill deep into the functions that PP offers to get that more precise pull. Note, when you upgrade to the PP, the MC cruise is disabled, AND you need to update the software on your engine computer (ECM). Only MasterCraft dealers have the ability to do this software update.

jkski
08-18-2005, 02:25 PM
jkski, what Kevin and mlange advise you is correct (except for the price thing I'm sure I can beat it ;) ); however, if you should choose to add this to your 2005 you'll need the dealer to "re-flash" the ecm. Also set-up with the DBW systems is a little different due to the addition of the CS parmeter. If you do go this route I'll be more than happy to walk to assist if needed.

Thanks for the offer. If I keep this boat beyond this season, I'll probably make the change, if not, I'll order it on the next one.

Thanks again for all the advice.