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View Full Version : How easy should the prop turn by hand


Chrisoswald
04-28-2012, 09:14 PM
Have a 88 prostar and was curious to see how easy the prop should be to spin by hand when the boat is dry.
Thanks.

mikeg205
04-28-2012, 09:15 PM
on my 95 it spins freely... how's the cutlass bearing look?

Chrisoswald
04-28-2012, 09:39 PM
It looks good as far as I can tell. The prop take both hands to turn. I would classify it as hard to turn by hand for sure.

Jerseydave
04-28-2012, 09:51 PM
There should be some drag when turning the prop so if you're use to an I/O or outboard it will spin way harder than those. There should be no up and down play in the bearing and the bearing material should look uniform all around the shaft.

If the boat has been on the trailer all winter and you're trying to turn the shaft it will feel extra tight until you run the boat in the water.

Chrisoswald
04-28-2012, 10:31 PM
Thanks for the info. I had read some posts about being able to turn the prop with one finger and that seemed almost impossible to me considering the strut and shaft packing. I ran it for a long time Friday and no vibration and the packing nut never got hot so I think I'm properly aligned. May unbolt the coupler to see if I'm aligned properly.

FrankSchwab
04-29-2012, 01:40 AM
Posting the obligatory "How to correctly align your propshaft once in the boat's lifetime" doc.

Do it once, and you'll be able to rotate the prop with one or two fingers. I can do it with one, but it hurts. Two is a more reasonable measure on mine. It made a significant difference in smoothness when I did it.

Needing two hands suggests to me that you should do this.

/frank

CantRepeat
04-29-2012, 05:58 AM
Thanks for the info. I had read some posts about being able to turn the prop with one finger and that seemed almost impossible to me considering the strut and shaft packing. I ran it for a long time Friday and no vibration and the packing nut never got hot so I think I'm properly aligned. May unbolt the coupler to see if I'm aligned properly.

Once aligned correctly you should be able to spin the prop with one finger.

Chrisoswald
04-29-2012, 10:17 AM
Thanks a million guys...im off to align...wish me luck!!!

93ProStar205
04-29-2012, 10:22 AM
My 87 poweslot was always rather stiff. Almost a two hand deal, but fine when in the water. Certainly an alignment check won't hurt.

Chrisoswald
04-29-2012, 10:22 AM
wow..i just read that document..seems like a bear to do

Jerseydave
04-29-2012, 10:35 AM
wow..i just read that document..seems like a bear to do

If you're not comfy with doing it yourself, it's money well spent to let the dealer do it and get it perfect IMHO. Maybe install a dripless shaft seal while you're at it?

Chrisoswald
04-29-2012, 11:20 AM
im gonna do just that..im good friends with a guy who works at a mastercraft dealer and he is gonna set me up..plus i get to see how its done. after seeing it done im sure i will be able to do it in the future..thanks guys

mikeg205
04-29-2012, 11:34 AM
If you're not comfy with doing it yourself, it's money well spent to let the dealer do it and get it perfect IMHO. Maybe install a dripless shaft seal while you're at it?

It's a meticulous process...good project when it sucks outside...:cool:

mcskier
04-29-2012, 12:29 PM
My dealer told me that it shouldn't really spin freely... Hmm.

CantRepeat
04-29-2012, 01:15 PM
Ok, I guess I should clarify.

If you have a 1to1 trans it should spin very easy, one finger for sure.

I would believe a 1.xx geared trans would have a little more resistance, a Vdrive possibly a little more.

None of them should take two hands muscling it to break it loose and spin.

If that is the case and still so after alignment, you've got other issues that need to be looked at.

Chrisoswald
04-29-2012, 07:12 PM
Ok...so i disconnected the shaft from the transmission...trans turns easily...shaft is still a two handed turn..could it be the strut bearing is too small? that seems to be where i am binding up..any ideas would be greatly appreciated. thanks!!

mikeg205
04-29-2012, 07:42 PM
Did the shaft move when you disconnected it from the trans or does it still line up? Spray some 303 or something mild into the strut bearing. Is there a build up of scale in the strut bearing?

Post pic's...

Kyle
04-29-2012, 07:55 PM
Did the shaft move when you disconnected it from the trans or does it still line up? Spray some 303 or something mild into the strut bearing. Is there a build up of scale in the strut bearing?

Post pic's...

I was thinking the same thing with buildup on the shaft or berring.

If the couplers line up nicely then there might very well be buildup on the strut.

mikeg205
04-29-2012, 08:13 PM
My shaft used to squeal and grind in the strut bearing.... so I to a close look and saw a bunch of scale. I poured CLR down the shaft strut bearing - CLR - doesn't react with plastic or rubber - and was ready with a quick rinse...a good rinse... Now I keep the shaft strut bearing moist with 303.

Mine turns nicely now...1 finger will do it...but dang..that prop has got a nice edge....

Chrisoswald
04-29-2012, 08:16 PM
the shaft coupler is pretty close to the trans coupler as far as alingnment..it could use a tweak as its not 100% lined up. when i disconnected the shaft coupler i expected the shaft to be able to be moved away from the trans coupler with a little effort..i had to grab the prop with both hands and twist it back and forth while pulling to get them to come apart...now that they are separated it still requires both hands to turn the prop. i ran the boat friday and no vibration and it behaved as expected. the boat is a fresh water boat and the strut is clean as can be..im stumped as i believe that the shaft should spin freely especially when disconnected from the trans...hell, even when connected it shouldnt take this much effort..thanks for the feedback and any ideas are appreciated!!!

CantRepeat
04-29-2012, 08:25 PM
My shaft used to squeal and grind in the strut bearing.... so I to a close look and saw a bunch of scale. I poured CLR down the shaft strut bearing - CLR - doesn't react with plastic or rubber - and was ready with a quick rinse...a good rinse... Now I keep the shaft strut bearing moist with 303.

Mine turns nicely now...1 finger will do it...but dang..that prop has got a nice edge....

What are you talking about??

Do you spray down the shaft with 303 every time before you go out? You have to be joking!

There is NO reason this has to happen. There must be other issues that are causing the trouble.

mikeg205
04-29-2012, 08:25 PM
Post some pic's......from different angles....

mikeg205
04-29-2012, 08:27 PM
What are you talking about??

Do you spray down the shaft with 303 every time before you go out? You have to be joking!

There is NO reason this has to happen. There must be other issues that are causing the trouble.

No...eash... when I put the boat away for the season its part of my winterization checklist.

CantRepeat
04-29-2012, 08:31 PM
No...eash... when I put the boat away for the season its part of my winterization checklist.

What? The bearings are dense plastic, they will not soak up 303. It might be lubing the shaft for a few minutes but it's a waste.

Again, OP if you need to use two hands to break loose the prop and turn it, there is something else that is a issue here. Masking that issue with witch doctor type cures is not where you want to be, period.

mikeg205
04-29-2012, 08:37 PM
What? The bearings are dense plastic, they will not soak up 303. It might be lubing the shaft for a few minutes but it's a waste.

Again, OP if you need to use two hands to break loose the prop and turn it, there is something else that is a issue here. Masking that issue with witch doctor type cures is not where you want to be, period.

nitrile rubber is what mine is made up of... not the new vesconite kind......but agree there is something else wrong.

Kyle
04-29-2012, 08:50 PM
Is it possible that the shaft packing is too tight.

I would take off the packing cap and try to spin the shaft. Heck it's a cheap replacment anyway. Pull the packing rope out of the log and try to spin the shaft. If it is still in a bind then remove the shaft and see if it is bent.

I'm willing to bet that the alignment is not the problem. If the packing is removed the shaft should have several inches of play up down side to side. If the shaft is still hard to turn it will be either bent or something is wrong with the strut or berrings. Remove packing from log and report back.

Kyle
04-29-2012, 08:52 PM
If the shaft is corroded of you remove it and not bent then get some Emory cloth and clean it up. Make sure shaft and strut are not bent a hair. It won't take much to make everything out of wack.

mikeg205
04-29-2012, 08:56 PM
Is it possible that the shaft packing is too tight.

I would take off the packing cap and try to spin the shaft. Heck it's a cheap replacment anyway. Pull the packing rope out of the log and try to spin the shaft. If it is still in a bind then remove the shaft and see if it is bent.

I'm willing to bet that the alignment is not the problem. If the packing is removed the shaft should have several inches of play up down side to side. If the shaft is still hard to turn it will be either bent or something is wrong with the strut or berrings. Remove packing from log and report back.

^^+1.....................

Chrisoswald
04-29-2012, 09:02 PM
im going to pull the shaft and check to see what the deal is...the packing is leaking more than it should so that is getting replaced. im also going to replace the shaft log hose while i am it..it looks worn and actually not the proper type of hose..very soft and flexing more than it should. im thinking the shaft is ok as i get no vibration at any speed but i will have it checked out. i will shoot some pictures tomorrow and post them so some more experienced eyes than mine can look things over. overall, the DD is a pretty simple setup so im hopeful that we can get it sorted out properly in short order...its painfully obvious that something is tight as hell between the prop and the shaft coupler...looking at the bright side it can only be the shaft, the strut, the strut bearing or the packing..right??

Chrisoswald
04-29-2012, 09:04 PM
oh...i forgot the most important thing....THANKS to all of you for taking the time to jump in here and help..i hope to be able to return the favor some day.

Chrisoswald
04-29-2012, 09:06 PM
Is it possible that the shaft packing is too tight.

I would take off the packing cap and try to spin the shaft. Heck it's a cheap replacment anyway. Pull the packing rope out of the log and try to spin the shaft. If it is still in a bind then remove the shaft and see if it is bent.

I'm willing to bet that the alignment is not the problem. If the packing is removed the shaft should have several inches of play up down side to side. If the shaft is still hard to turn it will be either bent or something is wrong with the strut or berrings. Remove packing from log and report back.

i did loosen the packing nut completely..it was spinning freely on the shaft and still need two hands to spin that sucker.

Kyle
04-30-2012, 12:00 AM
i did loosen the packing nut completely..it was spinning freely on the shaft and still need two hands to spin that sucker.

Remove the shaft and we will keep our fingers crossed that it is not bent or the strut is not bent. Something is not right.

If you can't spin it by hand easily you need to fix it. You don't want to burn up the berring in the tail of the tranny or tear anything else up.



Have u ever hit anything submerged before? Are you the only owner of this boat?

FrankSchwab
04-30-2012, 12:35 AM
If you're going to replace the hose and packing, then while you're waiting for parts go ahead and remove the hose from the through hull fitting (the "shaft log"). Then verify that the shaft appears to be more-or-less centered in the hole going through the hull. It'll bend and sit on the bottom of the hole, but you should be able to easily move it left, right, up, down. If it's forced against one side or the other, you need to resolve the issue.

If the prop is now easy to turn, then you have a lot of friction in the stuffing box. Time to figure out why and deal with it.

If, after removing the hose, it's still really hard to turn the prop, then you have some binding going on in the strut bearing. I'd pull the shaft at that point, inspect, and replace the bearings.

/frank

mzimme
04-30-2012, 04:43 PM
Can someone post a picture of all these parts you're talking about? After reading throught his thread I think I'm going to check the bearings and alignment on my 83 S&S because I can't turn the prop by hand. I do have the PS trans, and I haven't really tried to muscle the prop either, but it definitely does not spin freely by any means.

EJ OJPROP
04-30-2012, 05:07 PM
With the rubber strut bearings the prop will not spin freely out of the water. The rubber bearing is water lubricated. The bearings we have been installing in our struts since 04' are self lubricated and will allow the prop to spin freely out of the water.

mzimme
04-30-2012, 05:38 PM
With the rubber strut bearings the prop will not spin freely out of the water. The rubber bearing is water lubricated. The bearings we have been installing in our struts since 04' are self lubricated and will allow the prop to spin freely out of the water.

So I should try spinning after the boat has been in the water for a more accurate assessment?

CantRepeat
04-30-2012, 05:42 PM
With the rubber strut bearings the prop will not spin freely out of the water. The rubber bearing is water lubricated. The bearings we have been installing in our struts since 04' are self lubricated and will allow the prop to spin freely out of the water.

I figured, by now, everyone would have the plastic type bearings. Heck, my 92 had them when I bought it.

Chrisoswald
04-30-2012, 07:22 PM
Update....got the prop off and got the castle nut off the prop shaft in the shaft coupler. Working on getting the coupler off the shaft. Soaking it with pb blaster and have some tension on it with a socket wedged between the trans coupler and the prop shaft. Hopefully it will break free tomorrow. Still hard as hell to turn by hand. Even with the rubber strut bearing should it take two hands?

Chrisoswald
05-01-2012, 02:58 PM
So.....coupler is off...really not that hard to do..if you are going to tackle the job use a liberal amount of PB blaster and let it marinate overnight. I tired to do it yesterday and kind of hit a wall so i let it soak overnight and with three or four turns of the wrench it popped right off.

The shaft really wants to lay firm to the starboard side of the boat. i pulled the shaft and it is straight. My pal that works at mastercraft is going to check the strut to make sure its not bent. Everyone wish me luck!! Ordered new shaft log hose and packing and if the strut is fine will get some new bushings...the nylon ones...im hopeful that all my issues were just the old rubber bushings.

TRBenj
05-01-2012, 03:34 PM
Ok, I guess I should clarify.

If you have a 1to1 trans it should spin very easy, one finger for sure.

I would believe a 1.xx geared trans would have a little more resistance, a Vdrive possibly a little more.

None of them should take two hands muscling it to break it loose and spin.

If that is the case and still so after alignment, you've got other issues that need to be looked at.
You were correct the first time... transmission ratio has no effect on ability to spin the prop by hand out of the water. These trannies are hydraulic... so if theyre not spinning and building pressure in the pump, there is nothing pressing the clutches together and it can freewheel. Its not like youre spinning engaged gears or anything.

Like Eric said, the only thing that *should* be causing any sort of resistance is the strut bushing. I disagree that a rubber strut bushing will make it difficult to turn though. Even a brand new boat with a fresh bushing should turn with one finger. A properly aligned boat with his vesconite bushings spins easier though. My buddy has them installed and you can spin that prop by hand and it will turn a few revolutions before stopping. Crazy how little friction there is.

Bottom line, if the prop is hard to turn by hand, then youre either misaligned, or something is bent.

CantRepeat
05-01-2012, 03:50 PM
You were correct the first time... transmission ratio has no effect on ability to spin the prop by hand out of the water. These trannies are hydraulic... so if theyre not spinning and building pressure in the pump, there is nothing pressing the clutches together and it can freewheel. Its not like youre spinning engaged gears or anything.

Like Eric said, the only thing that *should* be causing any sort of resistance is the strut bushing. I disagree that a rubber strut bushing will make it difficult to turn though. Even a brand new boat with a fresh bushing should turn with one finger. A properly aligned boat with his vesconite bushings spins easier though. My buddy has them installed and you can spin that prop by hand and it will turn a few revolutions before stopping. Crazy how little friction there is.

Bottom line, if the prop is hard to turn by hand, then youre either misaligned, or something is bent.

The planetary gear reduction is bolted to the back of the trans I would believe it would add some rolling resistance but I could not say how much. Likewise, the gear set in a V drive would give some rolling resistance as well.

The 71 1.1s should spin freely as they do not have any gear reduction or gear sets.

As Eric pointed out, but I didn't think about because I've never seen them used, the rubber bearings in the strut offer some resistance too.

Chrisoswald
05-01-2012, 04:23 PM
You were correct the first time... transmission ratio has no effect on ability to spin the prop by hand out of the water. These trannies are hydraulic... so if theyre not spinning and building pressure in the pump, there is nothing pressing the clutches together and it can freewheel. Its not like youre spinning engaged gears or anything.

Like Eric said, the only thing that *should* be causing any sort of resistance is the strut bushing. I disagree that a rubber strut bushing will make it difficult to turn though. Even a brand new boat with a fresh bushing should turn with one finger. A properly aligned boat with his vesconite bushings spins easier though. My buddy has them installed and you can spin that prop by hand and it will turn a few revolutions before stopping. Crazy how little friction there is.

Bottom line, if the prop is hard to turn by hand, then youre either misaligned, or something is bent.

if your statement is accurate and im in no position to doubt it (if the prop is hard to turn by hand then im misaligned or something is bent) then why would it be hard to turn when disconnected from the transmission with the coupler off and the shaft free from the boat hull....what im trying to say is that as i was pulling the shaft this morning it was hard to pull the entire length of the shaft..could it be that the bushings are shot? it seems counter intuitive to me that as the bearing wears out it is hard to spin..it should get easier i would think...and the shaft is straight...not questioning your knowledge, just tying to gain some!!! thanks guys

Chrisoswald
05-01-2012, 04:30 PM
You were correct the first time... transmission ratio has no effect on ability to spin the prop by hand out of the water. These trannies are hydraulic... so if theyre not spinning and building pressure in the pump, there is nothing pressing the clutches together and it can freewheel. Its not like youre spinning engaged gears or anything.

Like Eric said, the only thing that *should* be causing any sort of resistance is the strut bushing. I disagree that a rubber strut bushing will make it difficult to turn though. Even a brand new boat with a fresh bushing should turn with one finger. A properly aligned boat with his vesconite bushings spins easier though. My buddy has them installed and you can spin that prop by hand and it will turn a few revolutions before stopping. Crazy how little friction there is.

Bottom line, if the prop is hard to turn by hand, then youre either misaligned, or something is bent.

if your statement is accurate and im in no position to doubt it (if the prop is hard to turn by hand then im misaligned or something is bent) then why would it be hard to turn when disconnected from the transmission with the coupler off and the shaft free from the boat hull....what im trying to say is that as i was pulling the shaft this morning it was hard to pull the entire length of the shaft..could it be that the bushings are shot? it seems counter intuitive to me that as the bearing wears out it is hard to spin...not questioning your knowledge, just tying to gain some!!! thanks guys

thatsmrmastercraft
05-01-2012, 05:08 PM
Looks like you have it narrowed down to the shaft, bearing and strut.

Chrisoswald
05-01-2012, 05:52 PM
Looks like you have it narrowed down to the shaft, bearing and strut.

forgot to mention that the shaft is straight as a string...im going to replace the bushings since i have gone this far...might as well make the drive line fresh...any suggestions on which is better...plastic or the traditional metal with rubber?

Chrisoswald
05-01-2012, 08:29 PM
i have a new development. i have the shaft log at home and am cleaning it up..i noticed that the nut will not screw down all the way on to the shaft log...looks like a PO hit it with a hammer hard enough to dent the shaft log nut and that dent transferred to the threads inside the shaft log nut...in other words the nut is not 100% round prohibiting the nut from creating a tight seal with the packing against the shaft log and shaft!!! any ideas where i can get a new shaft log nut??? or do you think this is something that can be fixed...any ideas??? thanks!!

EJ OJPROP
05-02-2012, 09:10 AM
Might as well replace it with the dripless shaft seal as well. With new composite bearings and shaft seal system, prop will spin freely for sure.

Chrisoswald
05-02-2012, 10:12 AM
Might as well replace it with the dripless shaft seal as well. With new composite bearings and shaft seal system, prop will spin freely for sure.

i dont think i have enough room..those dripless units need i think a minimum of 7 inches and the space between my transmission and where the shaft leaves the boat is very short.

TRBenj
05-02-2012, 10:32 AM
if your statement is accurate and im in no position to doubt it (if the prop is hard to turn by hand then im misaligned or something is bent) then why would it be hard to turn when disconnected from the transmission with the coupler off and the shaft free from the boat hull....what im trying to say is that as i was pulling the shaft this morning it was hard to pull the entire length of the shaft..could it be that the bushings are shot? it seems counter intuitive to me that as the bearing wears out it is hard to spin..it should get easier i would think...and the shaft is straight...not questioning your knowledge, just tying to gain some!!! thanks guys
If the couplers are separated, that would remove the misalignment. I would say that something is bent... either the shaft or strut. Youre correct- a worn out strut bushing would be easier to spin, not harder. It can be bent by a very small amount (thousandths of an inch) and affect your ability to spin it by hand. You cant tell if its straight or not by looking at it- it would require removal from the boat, a set of v-blocks and a dial indicator to tell if its slightly bent.

Cantrepeat, many of the boats I am most familiar with have 1.23 reduction transmissions. They spin just as easily as the 1:1 velvet drives.

EJ OJPROP
05-02-2012, 12:15 PM
i dont think i have enough room..those dripless units need i think a minimum of 7 inches and the space between my transmission and where the shaft leaves the boat is very short.

Our standard set up will fit.

Chrisoswald
05-04-2012, 06:15 PM
well...the strut is tweaked ever so slightly...just bent a hair..what options are there to get it straight..its off about 1/2 an inch or so.

Kyle
05-04-2012, 06:25 PM
Buy a new one. That is not an item that you want weak, cracked, or damaged in any way. That strut is under extreme force running that boat and if it were weakened in any way and eventually broke while running the boat............Well that would be bad.....Real bad

Heating it and bending it back straight could possibly make it weak.

ahhudgins
05-04-2012, 06:56 PM
Buy a new one. That is not an item that you want weak, cracked, or damaged in any way. That strut is under extreme force running that boat and if it were weakened in any way and eventually broke while running the boat............Well that would be bad.....Real bad

Heating it and bending it back straight could possibly make it weak.

+1 on what Kyle said.
I came in on this thread too late. I had the same issue on my 95 V-drive and I kept messing with it for a few weeks. I quit guessing and ordered a new strut/bushings. I had my shaft checked at a local machine shop and it was fine. I put it all back together aligning the strut and shaft with the hole in the hull first, then aligned the motor to the coupling. The amount of effort required to turn the shaft will vary depending on your exact alignment and how long the bushings have been out of the water. My boat is out of the water during the week and some times the shaft "sticks" a little before I can turn it by hand. Once it breaks free I can turn it with two fingers but it is tight. The final alignment is supposed to be done in the water because the boat does flex some when it's put on the trailer.

FrankSchwab
05-04-2012, 07:16 PM
I've heard stories of people using the propshaft as a lever, and bending the strut back into alignment. Others have removed the strut, oval'ed the holes, then reattached it using the propshaft to hold the strut aligned with the shaft log while the screws are tightened and the adhesive cures.

It's your boat, you can make the choice. Personally, bending the strut back to alignment gives me the willies. I'd probably buy a new strut if it were my boat.

/frank

Chrisoswald
05-04-2012, 07:23 PM
i think im gonna just get a new one.

Chrisoswald
05-04-2012, 07:24 PM
other than skidim where should i shop..looking for a good price...any suggestions?

j.mccreight@hotmail.com
05-04-2012, 07:31 PM
http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewitem?itemId=110797700662&siteId=0&isClassified=false

http://www.waterskis.com/200299-p/mastercraft_1_strut.htm