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millpondkid
04-24-2012, 02:05 PM
I have a 84 ss with the ford pcm 351. When the engine is warmed up and I go for a restart I need to give it (gas) in netural throttle forward for it to restart. Any ideas??

CantRepeat
04-24-2012, 02:42 PM
Is the choke opening all the way when it's warmed up?

thatsmrmastercraft
04-24-2012, 02:57 PM
Not terribly unusual. Do you still have points or have you upgraded to electronic ignition?

millpondkid
04-24-2012, 08:22 PM
I'm not sure about the choke opening, ill check that. As far as the ignition goes the paper work from 1998 I have from 2 owners ago shows a receipt for a prestolite kit with instructions for an ignitor module. The wires coming out of the dis are the same as the install sheet shows so I'm asumming its an ignitor module with stock coil and resistor.

millpondkid
04-24-2012, 09:05 PM
Ok I just warmed it up good in the driveway with the choke visable, it opened up (but not fully) some play there. I shut it down held the choke flap wide open and still needed to apply some gas to start. Is this typical? I would think it would pop right off. It idles nice at 800 rpm.

keith3613
04-24-2012, 09:08 PM
I too have a 1984. My boat started doing the same thing. The problem was the starter. Over the years, the starter gets weak. You don’t notice it because it’s so gradual. Try a new marine mini-starter. They are superior in every way. Once I installed one on my boat, the problem went away. They spin the engine faster with less power. The reason you have to give the engine gas is to make it rich. The rich mixture is easier to ignite since you don’t have the down draft to the combustion chamber like when the starter was new. The best buy is here: http://www.marinepartssource.com/newdetails.asp?pnumber=AR70200&mfg=Arco%20Auto%20%26%20Marine&mcat1=2&mcat2=0&mcat3=0&category=&mfgcategory=Inboard%20Starters&mfgno=70200&desc=Inboard%20Starter,%20Fits%20302,%20351%20Ford s

PART # IS 167201, MFG # IS 70200 FROM MARINE PARTS SOURCE.

millpondkid
04-24-2012, 09:58 PM
Thanks keith, that makes sense. I was thinking of doing that upgrade so sounds like ill order one. Ill write down your email as I remember you offering any advice. Will this new starter have the solanoid on the starter? Thanks again, matt

03geetee
04-24-2012, 10:02 PM
It will have new wiring instructions but is very easy to figure out. I agree with this change the starter, mine had some issues and now with the new starter it fires off anytime and everytime. Such a nice feeling when I used to leave it run in fear it wouldnt restart, but with gas these days being what it is its nice to shut if off.

JTR

millpondkid
04-24-2012, 10:20 PM
Sounds great, I just ordered one. Thanks again guys, matt

JohnMogs
04-24-2012, 10:42 PM
My 1980 was hard to restart, the carb needed a rebuild as it was dumping extra fuel while running and flooding the engine. Turned out that PO had incorrectly rebuilt the carb. Planning to put in the lake to test soon.

Kyle
04-24-2012, 10:48 PM
I guess I'm lost here. Have we checked everything before throwing money at this boat. I just don't want anyone jumping the gun and buying parts they don't need.

When the engine is warmed up does it turn over slow when trying to start? If it cranks slow and the cables or starter is hot, I can see where it needs replacing. When there is heat there is resistance.

If not and the engine cranks like normal when warm, I would assume a power valve in the carb or some kind of ignition or timing issues or fuel problems. I can't see a starter needing replacment if the starter can crank the engine at a reasonably fast rotation cold or hot and the cables are not hot or the casing of the starter is not hot.


I by no means am challenging ones knowledge here. I just changed a starter for the same reason as this issue for my boat. I can say I trouble shot many items before I started throwing money at it. My problem was after it got hot it would not crank at all and when it got hot my solenoid would have so much resistance the cables would get extremely hot and it caused the engine to loose ingnition spark and eventually die. I chased electrical issues from the battery to the key to the starter and then to the distributor and coil. I noticed hard starts before the problem got worse on mine.

Just don't want to see someone buy something they didn't need.

CantRepeat
04-25-2012, 06:59 AM
I guess I'm lost here. Have we checked everything before throwing money at this boat. I just don't want anyone jumping the gun and buying parts they don't need.

When the engine is warmed up does it turn over slow when trying to start? If it cranks slow and the cables or starter is hot, I can see where it needs replacing. When there is heat there is resistance.

If not and the engine cranks like normal when warm, I would assume a power valve in the carb or some kind of ignition or timing issues or fuel problems. I can't see a starter needing replacment if the starter can crank the engine at a reasonably fast rotation cold or hot and the cables are not hot or the casing of the starter is not hot.


I by no means am challenging ones knowledge here. I just changed a starter for the same reason as this issue for my boat. I can say I trouble shot many items before I started throwing money at it. My problem was after it got hot it would not crank at all and when it got hot my solenoid would have so much resistance the cables would get extremely hot and it caused the engine to loose ingnition spark and eventually die. I chased electrical issues from the battery to the key to the starter and then to the distributor and coil. I noticed hard starts before the problem got worse on mine.

Just don't want to see someone buy something they didn't need.

Yeah, I agree. If the motor is turning over at the same speed when both warm and cold, you are just throwing parts at and will likely find it isn't the cause of the warm start issues.

SilviaMan
04-25-2012, 04:05 PM
My 76 was doing something similar to this and I just adjusted the floats and haven't had the problem since.
(I found the easiest way to adjust the floats for me was on the water, with the little plastic sight glasses installed... after setting fuel level I removed the sight glasses and reinstalled the original plugs)

millpondkid
04-25-2012, 08:12 PM
Ok, thanks for the replies fellas. As far as the starter goes I had that on my short list of things to upgrade too anyway so I'm going to install that first. Then ill check the carb and floats. How did you adjust the fuel level for the bowl floats????

keith3613
04-25-2012, 08:18 PM
It will have everything. It is hooked up slightly different than the old one. Itís simple. The starter is smaller, lighter and takes less power. All new cars use them. I have kept files on my 1984 for parts and things since it was new. Donít hesitate to call at 972-998-1885. I like the old Stars and Stripes.

thatsmrmastercraft
04-25-2012, 08:34 PM
My 76 was doing something similar to this and I just adjusted the floats and haven't had the problem since.
(I found the easiest way to adjust the floats for me was on the water, with the little plastic sight glasses installed... after setting fuel level I removed the sight glasses and reinstalled the original plugs)

Are you running a marine carb? Don't remember ever seeing bowl sight-glasses on anything other than automotive carbs.

SilviaMan
04-26-2012, 08:50 AM
Ok, I thought this might come up.
My holley has machine screws in the side of the bowls. You can purchase plastic "sight plugs" for these holes.
http://www.amazon.com/Holley-26-113-Sight-Plug/dp/B00029JFGE
What I did was remove the machine screws in the driveway, installed the sight plugs and went to the lake. I didn't want to get fuel in the bilge, and wanted to adjust while floating.
Once we got home from the lake I took the plastics out and reinstalled the metal screws. I didn't want the plastic plugs to fail later figured it was safer to have the metal screws in there.
So when I adjust my floats I install those sights, take my screw driver and wrench with me and adjust them while floating.
(that particular part number for the sight plugs may not be the correct one, just used it for illustration)

millpondkid
04-30-2012, 11:54 PM
Ok so I'm ready for you guys to say I told you so! I upgraded the starter to the arco mini and it works great and I'm still glad I made the improvement since our cabin is in the boon docks and want to cover all things that may come up, plus I have the old one as a back up now. BUT the warm restart is still requiring me to give it gas. I'm wondering if its the floats and HOW to adjust them. I'm mechanically inclined so I'm not afraid to tackle this but I don't want to make it worse by making wrong adjustments. I have a detailed owners manual but prefer to hear your advice first hand. Thanks fellas!

thatsmrmastercraft
05-01-2012, 09:59 AM
Ok so I'm ready for you guys to say I told you so! I upgraded the starter to the arco mini and it works great and I'm still glad I made the improvement since our cabin is in the boon docks and want to cover all things that may come up, plus I have the old one as a back up now. BUT the warm restart is still requiring me to give it gas. I'm wondering if its the floats and HOW to adjust them. I'm mechanically inclined so I'm not afraid to tackle this but I don't want to make it worse by making wrong adjustments. I have a detailed owners manual but prefer to hear your advice first hand. Thanks fellas!

Your engine needs three thing for it to run: air, fuel and compression. If you don't give it a shot of fuel when you start, you are missing one of the big three. Your fuel injected car/truck engine does that for you.

CantRepeat
05-01-2012, 10:25 AM
Your engine needs three thing for it to run: air, fuel and compression. If you don't give it a shot of fuel when you start, you are missing one of the big three. Your fuel injected car/truck engine does that for you.

Four things, spark!!! lol

SilviaMan
05-01-2012, 10:30 AM
Your engine needs three thing for it to run: air, fuel and compression. If you don't give it a shot of fuel when you start, you are missing one of the big three. Your fuel injected car/truck engine does that for you.
I agree, to an extent on the shot of fuel.
If still warm after sitting in the swim bay for an hour or so, one pump and hit the key normally gets her going.
After picking up a skier and sitting for only a few minutes I have never needed to hit it with gas to restart.
So I guess the time frame for the warm restart comes into question.

http://www.holley.com/TechService/FAQ.asp
here is a link to holley on the float adjustment.
and you can google "holley float adjustment" under images for pictures of the adjusting nut and screw.

cbryan70
05-01-2012, 11:28 AM
I guess I dont understand this issue. On all older inboards I have always cranked it a bit to fire up?

thatsmrmastercraft
05-01-2012, 11:51 AM
Four things, spark!!! lol

I guess my multitasking came up one short of the mark this morning. No more responding and selling at the same time. I better go back and double-check the quantity on that order.:rolleyes:

thatsmrmastercraft
05-01-2012, 11:53 AM
I agree, to an extent on the shot of fuel.
If still warm after sitting in the swim bay for an hour or so, one pump and hit the key normally gets her going.
After picking up a skier and sitting for only a few minutes I have never needed to hit it with gas to restart.
So I guess the time frame for the warm restart comes into question.

http://www.holley.com/TechService/FAQ.asp
here is a link to holley on the float adjustment.
and you can google "holley float adjustment" under images for pictures of the adjusting nut and screw.

I agree. The vacuum created by cranking the engine will draw fuel from the carb, and normally allow a fully warmed up engine to restart.

thatsmrmastercraft
05-01-2012, 11:56 AM
I guess I dont understand this issue. On all older inboards I have always cranked it a bit to fire up?

Points ignition with half the voltage of electronic ignition is a major factor in this. Engines with more hours on them have less cranking vacuum to draw fuel into the engine to allow for easier starting.

CantRepeat
05-01-2012, 01:37 PM
I guess my multitasking came up one short of the mark this morning. No more responding and selling at the same time. I better go back and double-check the quantity on that order.:rolleyes:

I ordered 4 and you said you'd ship 6!! Thanks Peter! :D

thatsmrmastercraft
05-01-2012, 01:53 PM
I ordered 4 and you said you'd ship 6!! Thanks Peter! :D

Tim, I'm sure I would have overcharged you enough to compensate for the overage.:D:D

millpondkid
05-01-2012, 08:34 PM
The motor has 1600 hrs on it. The warm restart is right after I shut it down, only minutes. My carb 350 chevelle will restart after warmed up and that has higher miles also. I don't feel it should require fuel on immediate restart. Thanks for the advice and the float link. I could just live with the issue but don't feel I should.

03geetee
05-01-2012, 08:52 PM
Used to have to pump it, after the new starter I only ever pump it three times in the dead of morning after sitting for 6-8hrs dead cold. Now after I initially start her in the am with pumps, all it takes is a flick of the key. Trust me even if the issue is another item, get a nice new starter it helps ALOT and for 118.00 bucks I think its cheap.

JTR

millpondkid
05-01-2012, 10:16 PM
I have the brand new arco starter installed, no change.

Jetlag
05-02-2012, 12:46 AM
I had to give it lots of throttle to start when warm so I had to buy a rebuilt kit. I also notice i wasnt getting much fuel at all from the accelerator pump...glad i took the carb apart because it was dirty.

thatsmrmastercraft
05-02-2012, 12:49 AM
I had to give it lots of throttle to start when warm so I had to buy a rebuilt kit. I also notice i wasnt getting much fuel at all from the accelerator pump...glad i took the carb apart because it was dirty.

I have seen worse, but can't go wrong with a rebuild.

TRBenj
05-02-2012, 09:47 AM
$5 says it isnt starving for fuel when trying to restart when warm. Dollars to donuts says its flooded. Take the flame arrestor off and look down the carb throat after shutting down. I bet its dripping fuel off the primaries.

The cause is debris in the needle/seat area (causing it to hang open), or a float level set too high. You do not have the problem on cold starts because the excess fuel has a chance to evaporate.

If this is what is happening, then you should be able to restart immediately without throttle input. To restart after sitting for a minute, open the throttle all the way to clear it out (do not pump it and introduce more fuel). You need more air to go along with the excess fuel sitting in the intake.

To fix the issue, pull the front bowl off the carb. Check the float level. If too high, lower it. If the float level is ok, then pull the needle and seat and clean or (preferably) replace them.

CantRepeat
05-02-2012, 11:11 AM
$5 says it isnt starving for fuel when trying to restart when warm. Dollars to donuts says its flooded. Take the flame arrestor off and look down the carb throat after shutting down. I bet its dripping fuel off the primaries.

The cause is debris in the needle/seat area (causing it to hang open), or a float level set too high. You do not have the problem on cold starts because the excess fuel has a chance to evaporate.

If this is what is happening, then you should be able to restart immediately without throttle input. To restart after sitting for a minute, open the throttle all the way to clear it out (do not pump it and introduce more fuel). You need more air to go along with the excess fuel sitting in the intake.

To fix the issue, pull the front bowl off the carb. Check the float level. If too high, lower it. If the float level is ok, then pull the needle and seat and clean or (preferably) replace them.

thread jack - I'm totally digging the arrow on your RAW water pump!!

millpondkid
05-02-2012, 01:29 PM
Thanks TRBenj!!!!

TNPIG
05-02-2012, 01:42 PM
Wow, great thread for me as I too have an 84 S&S that cranks like a charm in the morning, but not so much after some skiing and it gets warm. I've been hitting the throttle to pump fuel into the carb when it's hot and doesn't want to start, but after reading on here I may be adding to the problem by doing that.

*Dumb question alert* I've had the boat for a year and PO said he went from points to electronic ignition. How do I verify that, or what do I look for to tell the difference between the two?

thatsmrmastercraft
05-02-2012, 01:51 PM
Wow, great thread for me as I too have an 84 S&S that cranks like a charm in the morning, but not so much after some skiing and it gets warm. I've been hitting the throttle to pump fuel into the carb when it's hot and doesn't want to start, but after reading on here I may be adding to the problem by doing that.

*Dumb question alert* I've had the boat for a year and PO said he went from points to electronic ignition. How do I verify that, or what do I look for to tell the difference between the two?

Points in top picture. Pertronix Ignitor II electronic ignition in 2nd and 3rd pic. All electronic ignitions look like is a small box in the dist compared to the mechanically opening ignition points.

SilviaMan
05-02-2012, 01:51 PM
*Dumb question alert* I've had the boat for a year and PO said he went from points to electronic ignition. How do I verify that, or what do I look for to tell the difference between the two?

Look for like 3 wires leading into the distributor instead of one IIRC. Or just pop the cap and look under the rotor, if you don't see points then its been changed.
(been a few months since I was inside my boat so this is from memory)
-- beat by MrMasterCraft! Nice one Sir!

thatsmrmastercraft
05-02-2012, 01:52 PM
Look for like 3 wires leading into the distributor instead of one IIRC. Or just pop the cap and look under the rotor, if you don't see points then its been changed.
(been a few months since I was inside my boat so this is from memory)

Pertronix Ignitor II only has two wires. Best way is to look inside the dist cap.

TRBenj
05-02-2012, 05:04 PM
You should be able to tell what type of conversion was used without opening it up.

Black + red wires = Pertronix
Black + purple wires = Prestolite
Red + brown + green wires = Mallory

TNPIG
05-16-2012, 02:51 PM
I too have a 1984. My boat started doing the same thing. The problem was the starter. Over the years, the starter gets weak. You donít notice it because itís so gradual. Try a new marine mini-starter. They are superior in every way. Once I installed one on my boat, the problem went away. They spin the engine faster with less power. The reason you have to give the engine gas is to make it rich. The rich mixture is easier to ignite since you donít have the down draft to the combustion chamber like when the starter was new. The best buy is here: http://www.marinepartssource.com/newdetails.asp?pnumber=AR70200&mfg=Arco%20Auto%20%26%20Marine&mcat1=2&mcat2=0&mcat3=0&category=&mfgcategory=Inboard%20Starters&mfgno=70200&desc=Inboard%20Starter,%20Fits%20302,%20351%20Ford s

PART # IS 167201, MFG # IS 70200 FROM MARINE PARTS SOURCE.

Ok, just got this in and plan on installing it next trip to the lake. I'm having the same problem as the original poster and unfourtunately the new starter didn't solve his problem. It looks like the original starter is on mine, so I figure for $120 bucks may as well go ahead and change it anyway. I'm pretty green when it come to mechanical ability. I change the oil, transmission fluid, impellor, etc. but that's about it. However, the instructions that came with the starter seem pretty straight forward and not too difficult. Any tips or pointers for me trying to do it myself.

I got my 84S&S out of storage last weekend and cleaned her up. She started up after a few minutes of coaxing which I guess is to be expected after about a 7 month layup. Idled great and ran great once started, but I'm assuming I will have the same warm restart problem I did last Summer. I changed the oil/filter, tranny fluid, and just a general cleanup.

My fuel guage seems to jump around alot and my engine hour guage isn't moving. I noticed both of these things last Summer too. Anything I can check for those two issues? I appreciate all the information on here. I'm far from being a competent boat mechanic, but I've learned so much by being on here for this first year of having my boat. Thanks

Lumbergh
05-16-2012, 03:15 PM
There is a distinct lack of pictures in this thread.

thatsmrmastercraft
05-16-2012, 03:45 PM
Ok, just got this in and plan on installing it next trip to the lake. I'm having the same problem as the original poster and unfourtunately the new starter didn't solve his problem. It looks like the original starter is on mine, so I figure for $120 bucks may as well go ahead and change it anyway. I'm pretty green when it come to mechanical ability. I change the oil, transmission fluid, impellor, etc. but that's about it. However, the instructions that came with the starter seem pretty straight forward and not too difficult. Any tips or pointers for me trying to do it myself.

I got my 84S&S out of storage last weekend and cleaned her up. She started up after a few minutes of coaxing which I guess is to be expected after about a 7 month layup. Idled great and ran great once started, but I'm assuming I will have the same warm restart problem I did last Summer. I changed the oil/filter, tranny fluid, and just a general cleanup.

My fuel guage seems to jump around alot and my engine hour guage isn't moving. I noticed both of these things last Summer too. Anything I can check for those two issues? I appreciate all the information on here. I'm far from being a competent boat mechanic, but I've learned so much by being on here for this first year of having my boat. Thanks

When removing the starter, put a couple folded up towels under where the starter may make it's crash-landing so there is padding in case it slips.

Note: Towel pic is per Lumbergh's request.:rolleyes:

millpondkid
05-17-2012, 01:43 PM
Received new needle and seats for both bowls today will install and check for leaking primiers after warmed up. Adjusting the floats hasn't worked. QUESTION: in jetlags pic it shows the float suspended by the spring my float sits on the bottom of the bowl with little help from the spring do you think this is an issue as the spring is there to help the float raise with fuel level???? I adjusted the float upside down and parallel with float bowl as my owners manual and others have suggested.. any thoughts on spring force??

Nvrgvup
05-19-2012, 04:16 PM
I was having the same problem with my 83'. Started fine cold, tough when warm. Brand new carb, coil, points, cap, rotor, wires & plugs made it perform slightly better when running however warm starts were not strong.

Until...

I relalized the older PCM 351's did not include a ballist resistor bypass or jumper wire. What is happening when starting, the starter is pulling the voltage to the coil down and the ballist resistor is dropping it more. So typically on point style ignition systems a jumper is used to bypass the resistor to sypply adequate voltage to the coil only when starting to offset the starter draw. Apparently the later Indmars had this figured out and had the bypass wire.

Basically there is a stud on the starter solnoid for this. All you have to do is make a 4"-6" wire with some terminals on the ends. Connect it to the small starter solenoid stud that is hot only when the solenoid is closed and the other end to the out side of the bassist resistor. Easiest modification ever.

This solved my hot start issues completely. Cold start was even better. This is why installing a electronic ignition also solves the issue. Not due to the electronic upgrade but because the bassist resistor is eliminated with the electronic upgrade. Personally I would make this 15Ę upgrade if you have a older PCM 351W and point ignition. There are no side effects other than majorly improved starting. I can take some pics next time out if anyone is interested.

Thanks!!

thatsmrmastercraft
05-19-2012, 07:39 PM
I was having the same problem with my 83'. Started fine cold, tough when warm. Brand new carb, coil, points, cap, rotor, wires & plugs made it perform slightly better when running however warm starts were not strong.

Until...

I relalized the older PCM 351's did not include a ballist resistor bypass or jumper wire. What is happening when starting, the starter is pulling the voltage to the coil down and the ballist resistor is dropping it more. So typically on point style ignition systems a jumper is used to bypass the resistor to sypply adequate voltage to the coil only when starting to offset the starter draw. Apparently the later Indmars had this figured out and had the bypass wire.

Basically there is a stud on the starter solnoid for this. All you have to do is make a 4"-6" wire with some terminals on the ends. Connect it to the small starter solenoid stud that is hot only when the solenoid is closed and the other end to the out side of the bassist resistor. Easiest modification ever.

This solved my hot start issues completely. Cold start was even better. This is why installing a electronic ignition also solves the issue. Not due to the electronic upgrade but because the bassist resistor is eliminated with the electronic upgrade. Personally I would make this 15Ę upgrade if you have a older PCM 351W and point ignition. There are no side effects other than majorly improved starting. I can take some pics next time out if anyone is interested.

Thanks!!

Great upgrade.....I had that on my '77 until today when I installed electronic ignition. It made a huge difference.

I would not, however, discount the effectiveness of doubling the voltage the coil puts out for ease of starting.

millpondkid
05-19-2012, 08:10 PM
I replaced the needle and seat, adjusted floats to specks, cleaned and blew out ports and one side is still dripping out of the primary booster flooding the engine when idleing and when shut down. I took the carb back off and have a guy here in town who ownes a engine building/parts store looking at it, he seems very knowledgable with this style. Basicly the carb is not stopping the fuel flow and floods itself, iv adjusted the floats up and down making it worse to making it the same so ill see what he comes up with on mon.

TNPIG
05-21-2012, 09:38 AM
I replaced the needle and seat, adjusted floats to specks, cleaned and blew out ports and one side is still dripping out of the primary booster flooding the engine when idleing and when shut down. I took the carb back off and have a guy here in town who ownes a engine building/parts store looking at it, he seems very knowledgable with this style. Basicly the carb is not stopping the fuel flow and floods itself, iv adjusted the floats up and down making it worse to making it the same so ill see what he comes up with on mon.

What did you have to do in order to see if fuel was dripping and flooding the engine?

TRBenj
05-21-2012, 11:47 AM
Pull the flame arrestor off and look down the carb throat right after shutting the motor down.

mzimme
05-21-2012, 12:09 PM
I was having the same problem with my 83'. Started fine cold, tough when warm. Brand new carb, coil, points, cap, rotor, wires & plugs made it perform slightly better when running however warm starts were not strong.

Until...

I relalized the older PCM 351's did not include a ballist resistor bypass or jumper wire. What is happening when starting, the starter is pulling the voltage to the coil down and the ballist resistor is dropping it more. So typically on point style ignition systems a jumper is used to bypass the resistor to sypply adequate voltage to the coil only when starting to offset the starter draw. Apparently the later Indmars had this figured out and had the bypass wire.

Basically there is a stud on the starter solnoid for this. All you have to do is make a 4"-6" wire with some terminals on the ends. Connect it to the small starter solenoid stud that is hot only when the solenoid is closed and the other end to the out side of the bassist resistor. Easiest modification ever.

This solved my hot start issues completely. Cold start was even better. This is why installing a electronic ignition also solves the issue. Not due to the electronic upgrade but because the bassist resistor is eliminated with the electronic upgrade. Personally I would make this 15Ę upgrade if you have a older PCM 351W and point ignition. There are no side effects other than majorly improved starting. I can take some pics next time out if anyone is interested.

Thanks!!

I'd very much appreciate a picture of that setup.

thatsmrmastercraft
05-21-2012, 12:31 PM
It is as simple as this.

Nvrgvup
05-21-2012, 07:15 PM
Bingo. It is that simple.

thatsmrmastercraft
05-22-2012, 09:24 AM
The best simple fix there is for a points ignition. It makes a huge difference.

TNPIG
05-22-2012, 10:29 AM
Could someone confirm that the fuel pump linked below is the correct one for my 84S&S? Also, I didn't see what looked like my fuel filter on the skidim site. Does anyone know which one that would be? I live 3 hours from where I keep my boat and would like to start collecting parts to keep up there in case of emergency. Thanks

http://www.skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=RA080002A

mzimme
05-22-2012, 10:42 AM
It is as simple as this.

What guage wire is needed?

thatsmrmastercraft
05-22-2012, 12:19 PM
What guage wire is needed?

I think I used 14 gauge. there isn't a big load on this....just supplying battery voltage while cranking.

TRBenj
05-22-2012, 01:14 PM
$5 says it isnt starving for fuel when trying to restart when warm. Dollars to donuts says its flooded. Take the flame arrestor off and look down the carb throat after shutting down. I bet its dripping fuel off the primaries.

The cause is debris in the needle/seat area (causing it to hang open), or a float level set too high. You do not have the problem on cold starts because the excess fuel has a chance to evaporate.

If this is what is happening, then you should be able to restart immediately without throttle input. To restart after sitting for a minute, open the throttle all the way to clear it out (do not pump it and introduce more fuel). You need more air to go along with the excess fuel sitting in the intake.

To fix the issue, pull the front bowl off the carb. Check the float level. If too high, lower it. If the float level is ok, then pull the needle and seat and clean or (preferably) replace them.
If you are going to continue to blindly replace parts and make changes rather than do some basic trouble shooting as described above, you are going to continue to chase your tail.

Replacing things in the starter path (relay, starter, battery, cables) will not help to address a warm-start problem if the engine always cranks ok. What youve described is a fuel or ignition issue, not a cranking issue.

Older PCM's did not have the extra wire from the I post of the solenoid wired to the ignition system because they do NOT need it. I have MANY older boats that still have points ignitions that do NOT bypass the ballast resistor when starting. If the ignition, fuel, and starting systems are in a proper state of tune, a carb'd boat with a points ignition should start beautifully. Mine take a few throttle pumps when cold, but otherwise perform nearly as nicely as EFI.

Cloaked
05-22-2012, 07:26 PM
Could someone confirm that the fuel pump linked below is the correct one for my 84S&S? Also, I didn't see what looked like my fuel filter on the skidim site. Does anyone know which one that would be? I live 3 hours from where I keep my boat and would like to start collecting parts to keep up there in case of emergency. Thanks

http://www.skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=RA080002A (http://www.skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=RA080002A) . Yes, confirmed correct part. The downside of keeping a spare pump (of which I do) is that they have a diaphram in them that can dry out and shrink or fail after a certain shelf life. I have had them sit as long as 5 years with no issues but I have also seen others that deterioriated from sitting several years. I may be wrong but that's all I know.

Nvrgvup
05-22-2012, 10:08 PM
If you are going to continue to blindly replace parts and make changes rather than do some basic trouble shooting as described above, you are going to continue to chase your tail.

Replacing things in the starter path (relay, starter, battery, cables) will not help to address a warm-start problem if the engine always cranks ok. What youve described is a fuel or ignition issue, not a cranking issue.

Older PCM's did not have the extra wire from the I post of the solenoid wired to the ignition system because they do NOT need it. I have MANY older boats that still have points ignitions that do NOT bypass the ballast resistor when starting. If the ignition, fuel, and starting systems are in a proper state of tune, a carb'd boat with a points ignition should start beautifully. Mine take a few throttle pumps when cold, but otherwise perform nearly as nicely as EFI.

Really Mr. Expert. If your going to slam people and their developments that they are sharing make sure you understand what your talking about. You clearly stated you don't.

TRBenj
05-23-2012, 10:08 AM
If you bypass the resistor during starting on a vintage PCM Ford, and it improves starting significantly, then youve successfully applied a band aid to cover up another problem. That, I understand.

I have NEVER seen that be the true cause of a poor warm restart condition. Some basic troubleshooting of the fuel and ignition systems would be recommended instead.

Nvrgvup
05-23-2012, 11:04 AM
It's amazing how many vehicles the OE manufacturers had put "Band Aids" on back in the days of point ignition systems. Even Ford on their designed and built 351's.

I can't speak for everyone however my engine is low hours, well maintained and in very good running condition and always started fine cold or hot. However with the added wire it starts with much more confidence. It barly cranks now and starts.

TRBenj
05-23-2012, 12:09 PM
I consider it a band aid because in this case, the OE Manufacturer in question (PCM), did NOT utilize that feature. While Indmar did, Conquerer Crusader, Palmer, Waukesha, OMC and PCM did not.

None of the engines I have owned or worked on that did not have that feature utilized have started poorly because of it. Therefore, I think that attempting to utilize this feature to cover up a problem that should not be there, is bad advice.

Proper troubleshooting of the problem would be the recommended solution.

millpondkid
05-25-2012, 10:13 PM
This is my last post on this thread. What I found to be the problem was the carb dripping off the boosters on the primary side as TRBenj had stated. I replaced the needle and seat with new along with float which weighed 1/64 of an oz less than the old. Cleaned all the ports and adjusted the butterflys to close more. Started it up tonight and no more dripping in the carb warmed it up shut it off and restarted just like new.thanks for the help!!!

Philscbx
05-26-2012, 07:27 AM
carb needed a rebuild as it was dumping extra fuel while running and flooding the engine .Would be my guess right off.
Go to wide open throttle, this should also kick the choke wide open, let it stand this way a minute with no further movements of throttle.

The slightest throttle move advanced will pump in more fuel.

Now hit starter. Throttle back as it fires up.
Can also check for a lean condition by adding choke if it doesn't fire.

TRBenj
05-29-2012, 10:07 AM
This is my last post on this thread. What I found to be the problem was the carb dripping off the boosters on the primary side as TRBenj had stated. I replaced the needle and seat with new along with float which weighed 1/64 of an oz less than the old. Cleaned all the ports and adjusted the butterflys to close more. Started it up tonight and no more dripping in the carb warmed it up shut it off and restarted just like new.thanks for the help!!!
:headbang: .