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View Full Version : 2012 Ballast Timer problems with additional ballast???? Come on in.


FourFourty
04-20-2012, 08:27 AM
First, I just want to point out that this will take me several posts, and I will add and update as time allows.....

In my quest to develop the perfect ballast system for my 2012 X25, I have run into a few speed bumps....... However, with several hours of research, and a lot of testing/mapping/figuring out the factory ballast system for 2012, I think I have cracked it.

A few months ago, I started ordering parts for this system. At the time, I was under the assumption that my 2012 ballast system would have timers, just like my '11 X25. I was wrong about that, but we will get to that part later.....

What I started with-
1-Plug and play bags that I had from my 2011. $620.00
2-A 3"x4"x6" project enclosure. $5.80
3-6 single pole, double throw, changeover relays rated for 30amps each. $41.68
4-2x 6 pin deutsche style connector sets (Male and Female) $13.22
5-8x 2 Pin deutsche style connector sets (male and female) $31.10
6-30x deutsche male pins, and 30x female. (Stamped style) $24.00
7-50ft roll of 1/2" conduit. $28.00
8-Plug and play ballast switch assy from MC. $124.00 from dealer (thought it would be a lot more than that, with the billet plate and everything....)
9- Box of 50 12-16ga female slide connectors. (gold plated, and heat sealed) $48.00
10-20' Roll of 1" ballast hose. $43.40
11-4x 100' Rolls of 14ga wire (Red, blue, yellow, black) $43.90
12- 3x Jabsco Ballast puppy pumps and 3 through hull fittings- $890.00

Total invested so far- $1913.10. (As you know, the factory plug and play costs more than this, and you still have to buy the bags and fittings anyhow..... which is over $700.00 of the cost that I have included. Also, this will be a vastly better system.


I first built myself a controller using the 6 relays to switch from tank pumps to bag pumps. I am using the OEM plug and play switch assy to control the relays. If I have time at some point, Maybe I will draw a wiring diagram for this.....

FourFourty
04-20-2012, 08:39 AM
The controller that I built is completely plug in and this system will look 100% OEM..... Not a single wire in the boat will be cut.

There is a 6 pin connector next to the transmission that I used to tie into the factory ballast. All three factory pumps are in this connector. This connector is also downstream from the controller, which is where you want to tie in. I attached a pic of this below.

Basically, in the normally closed position, the relays will just pass the power straight though the controller, back into the factory harness. This way, if my controller fails for some reason, the factory ballast will still work normally...... When the relays are energized (via the plug and play switches), power will be sent out of the controller to the three bag pumps using the factory ballast switches at the helm. The relays simply control which pump you are running..... Bag, or tank, depending on plug and play switch position.

This is the factory ballast 6 pin. In a X25, it is located to the left of the vdrive transmission. it has 3 blue wires, and 3 yellow wires.

CantRepeat
04-20-2012, 08:50 AM
Looks great!! I love the deutsche. They have a cleaner look then weather paks.

It might be too late but they only suggestion I would give you is going with water tight relays and breakers.

If you are interested, the part numbers are in this first post and there are photos of the relays. They are the same ones MC uses.

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=40934

FourFourty
04-20-2012, 08:55 AM
I didnt really intend to do a DIY post on this install, so I apologize that I do not have more photos. I will try to get more info and photos posted as I wrap this project up.

I am currently much further into this project than I have posted so far, but I will catch up on this after I am finished.

I know there is at least two other members that are looking for answers to the ballast timer problem..... so I will get to that ASAP. It took me a long time to figure it out, but I cracked it last night.

Basically, you have to fool the OEM system into thinking there are two way ballast valves in the system. (the PNP valves have variable resistors in them to relay position information to the surf tab slave module, which then relays info to the BIG). I figured out the resistance values and tied a resistor in line of the sensor wires. This makes the computers think that the valves are working, and splits the timers for bags or tanks.

I set up a temporary system for this last night, so I could test it out. It worked perfect.
1-The timers would run for the Tanks.
2- when the tanks were full, and timed out, I switched to bag fill, and the big screen displayed empty bags.
3- start filling the bags, and the BIG uses new timers to fill them. It also displays bag levels on screen. (based off of pump revolutions)
4-As far as the BIG is concerned, you now have timers for 6 ballast tanks instead of three. and if you use the PNP bags from wakemakers, the timers are set to fill these..... If you use bigger bags, you will have to cycle at the end, to get them full-full.

More to come.......

FourFourty
04-20-2012, 08:58 AM
Looks great!! I love the deutsche. They have a cleaner look then weather paks.

It might be too late but they only suggestion I would give you is going with water tight relays and breakers.

If you are interested, the part numbers are in this first post and there are photos of the relays. They are the same ones MC uses.

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=40934


Thanks! Unfortunatly, It is too late. My project encloser is water tight though, and I mounted in a high and dry location...... hopefully it will be ok. If not, it wont be a big deal to change it over.

FourFourty
04-20-2012, 09:18 AM
As far as plumbing the bags goes.....

1-Added three new pumps. I located the center pump right next to the OEM KGB pump. I installed the port and starboard pumps behind the back panels in the port and starboard storage lockers.

2-installed 3 additional through-hulls to vent the bags. (PNP option does not vent the bags, which is stupid in my opinion)

3-tied into the OEM bottom through-hull for the water supply.

4-Ran fill lines into the port and starboard lockers, and the center line up under the observer seat. (all of us surf on the port side)

5-fitted bags and plumbed in.

FourFourty
04-20-2012, 09:32 AM
I now see that Teamtalk admin has moved this post to a location where nobody will see it..... So I might not bother finishing it.

Spend a half hour typing and get moved to the far reaches of the forum..... I might as well post it on wakeworld.


If anyone has seen this thread and is looking for more info on how to get your ballast system to fill additional bags, PM me. I am not going to spend another hour or two, getting pictures and data for this post...........and then have it go unseen.

Nobody is going to go to the "maintenance and refurb" section to try to figure this out for their 2012 boat...... sorry to say. It would be another story, if a ballast section was a main subforum....

CantRepeat
04-20-2012, 10:04 AM
I now see that Teamtalk admin has moved this post to a location where nobody will see it..... So I might not bother finishing it.

Spend a half hour typing and get moved to the far reaches of the forum..... I might as well post it on wakeworld.


If anyone has seen this thread and is looking for more info on how to get your ballast system to fill additional bags, PM me. I am not going to spend another hour or two, getting pictures and data for this post...........and then have it go unseen.

Nobody is going to go to the "maintenance and refurb" section to try to figure this out for their 2012 boat...... sorry to say. It would be another story, if a ballast section was a main subforum....

It was moved into the ballast specific area because it's a topic on ballast. Maintenance and refurbishing are just the parent topic.

I'm sure a lot of people looking for ballast info WILL see it.

FourFourty
04-20-2012, 10:22 AM
It was moved into the ballast specific area because it's a topic on ballast. Maintenance and refurbishing are just the parent topic.

I'm sure a lot of people looking for ballast info WILL see it.


I understand your reasoning behind that....... however, using maint and refurb as the parent topic is completely unrelated to ballast. I have been a fairly active member for over a year, and I didnt know that there was a ballast section, because I never visit the maintenance and refurb section.

Lots of people with 2012 boats frequent the general discussion area, and info on a redesigned ballast system for 2012 MCs would give them info/ideas/solutions for their brand new boats.... They check in to the general section daily, but not the subforums. They do this because the general section is most active, and they are looking for the most recent news.

I dont think many members think to themselves- "I need ballast timer info for my new boat.... I bet thats in the refurbishing section of the forum"

CantRepeat
04-20-2012, 10:32 AM
I'd like to see the sub forums in the Maint area set to default expanded. It would be nice to see them like the rest of the forums. But, I'm not sure what that would require.

FourFourty
04-20-2012, 10:39 AM
I'd like to see the sub forums in the Maint area set to default expanded. It would be nice to see them like the rest of the forums. But, I'm not sure what that would require.

I think that would be an EXCELLENT idea!!!

I am just really worried that nobody would see this info. It makes me not want to spend much time on it.....

I will keep my eyes open for questions regarding this, and try to forward the questions to here.

rgardjr1
04-20-2012, 11:38 AM
FourFourty can you help me understand the benefits of your system a little better?
It looks like you saved money with your install vs purchasing the plug and play through MC-correct?
Can you run all 6 of pumps at the same time for faster fill times?
It looks like all your pumps use the same through hull to get water-does this limit how many pumps can run at once?

bcd
04-20-2012, 11:42 AM
I found your post, but I've already rewired mine and it's already on a different post. I completely bypassed the factory system and hardwired my 3 pumps to relays using the factory fill/empty switches. I like your install better, I just didn't have any of the info on the PNP to trick the controller. Mine works, but my zero off wouldn't kick in because the system thought the tanks weren't full. I changed my configuration settings to say my boat has PNP, so now it will kick on zero off without trying to fill the tanks. The only problem I have now, is it also disables my attitude plate for some reason. If I want to lower than, I have to go in and change my config settings back.

I'm a little confused about how your system is filling? If you're tricking the system into thinking you have pnp, and you fill the factory, then switch over to fill the extra bags, why did you buy the extra pumps? If you have the extra pumps, why don't you run all 6 from the start to decrease your fill time?

Heelgrad
04-20-2012, 11:51 AM
Four forty, sent you a PM. Thx man.

FourFourty
04-20-2012, 12:12 PM
FourFourty can you help me understand the benefits of your system a little better?
It looks like you saved money with your install vs purchasing the plug and play through MC-correct?
Can you run all 6 of pumps at the same time for faster fill times?
It looks like all your pumps use the same through hull to get water-does this limit how many pumps can run at once?

Benefits-
1-Saved about $2k versus ordering with PNP.
2-Bags are vented
3-I wanted bags in a better place for surfing (behind/under observer seat), instead of up in the bow walkway....


Unfortunatly, the only way I could set it up with the factory switches/system, is to either fill tanks, or bags..... Not all 6 at the same time. You can only fill 3, and then switch over and fill the other three. Also, I am not sure the alternator would be happy running all 6 pumps at once....

I had tossed around the idea of doing dual water uptakes, but saw no benefit if I can only run three pumps at a time.

I found your post, but I've already rewired mine and it's already on a different post. I completely bypassed the factory system and hardwired my 3 pumps to relays using the factory fill/empty switches. I like your install better, I just didn't have any of the info on the PNP to trick the controller. Mine works, but my zero off wouldn't kick in because the system thought the tanks weren't full. I changed my configuration settings to say my boat has PNP, so now it will kick on zero off without trying to fill the tanks. The only problem I have now, is it also disables my attitude plate for some reason. If I want to lower than, I have to go in and change my config settings back.

I'm a little confused about how your system is filling? If you're tricking the system into thinking you have pnp, and you fill the factory, then switch over to fill the extra bags, why did you buy the extra pumps? If you have the extra pumps, why don't you run all 6 from the start to decrease your fill time?

I did 6 pumps for two reasons- Reason #1- buying the three pumps was cheaper than buying three changeover valves. Reason #2- I like redundancy. Ballast pumps have a tough life as it is. I figured it would be better to run more pumps at a lower duty cycle.

I cant run all 6 at once, because the BIG is only set up to fill tanks OR bags, not both at the same time. I could have set the system to fill all 6, however, the timers wouldnt have worked correctly.

Are you just running piggy backs?? If so, is it too late to put your boat back to stock, or did you cut the wires? If you can go back to stock, I can show you a 1 hr install that will set you up perfectly, and you will retain all of your functionality.

All you will need is 1 toggle switch, and a LED interior lamp that is the same as what is in your boat. (I know the LED lamp thing sounds funny..... but, just trust me...... The resistor that is needed for the bag changeover sensing circuit is not easy to find. One of the LED interior lamps from the boat has the exact resistance needed to make the computer think you changed over to bag fill.....) 1,100 ohms.....

You would have to make sure your boat has a tab slave module though.... Would be handy to have wiring diagrams. I was able to get mine from my dealer.... I am not sure if your boat would be the same as a X25, and you dont have a BIG. So, it may take a little figuring to get you set up.

bcd
04-20-2012, 12:26 PM
I do have the wiring diagram, and I didn't cut any wires, just capped the factory connectors and left them in the boat. I also have the piggy back bags, but I don't have the slave module. Any idea how much it costs?

So if I understand you correctly, I would use the toggle switch to switch between factory and piggy back fill, and the LED's provide the resistance to make the system think it's shifting the changeover valves? I considered this option before I did mine, but I didn't have the slave module, and I wasn't confident I could get the resistance correct.

MIskier
04-20-2012, 12:38 PM
Very nice job with the install! The LED trick is ingenious as a way to trick the system! I would encourage you to keep posting, there are a lot of dealers and customers that I'm sure would love to have a complete walk through to allow them to recreate that setup.

FourFourty
04-20-2012, 12:46 PM
Very nice job with the install! The LED trick is ingenious as a way to trick the system! I would encourage you to keep posting, there are a lot of dealers and customers that I'm sure would love to have a complete walk through to allow them to recreate that setup.

I think I may do a video at the end..... It might be the easiest way of walking through this install, and also give a better idea of exactly what I did, and how easy it is.

Quinten
04-20-2012, 12:53 PM
I think I may do a video at the end..... It might be the easiest way of walking through this install, and also give a better idea of exactly what I did, and how easy it is.

I like that idea, looking forward to now more about your system.
Don't need an upgrade on ballas at the moment but maybe in the futher.

FourFourty
04-20-2012, 12:57 PM
I do have the wiring diagram, and I didn't cut any wires, just capped the factory connectors and left them in the boat. I also have the piggy back bags, but I don't have the slave module. Any idea how much it costs?

So if I understand you correctly, I would use the toggle switch to switch between factory and piggy back fill, and the LED's provide the resistance to make the system think it's shifting the changeover valves? I considered this option before I did mine, but I didn't have the slave module, and I wasn't confident I could get the resistance correct.

Email me the diagrams if you can.... I just want to take a quick view through them, so i dont steer you in the wrong direction.

And yes, if you piggy backed your bags, it would work as follows-
1-start filling your bags as normal.
2-about the time they are full, or just start filling the piggy backs, your timers will run out.
3-at this time you flip your switch, and your system will think you switched over to bag fill via changeover valves which are not really there....
4-system switches over to bag timers, and you can use that time to fill the piggy backs.
5-empty is same deal as filling

the reason that you are losing your attitude plate is because you are turning PNP option on, and the computer has no reference as to what the position of your ballast valves are in. Without that reference, the system shuts ballast (you bypassed), attitude plate (you have), and surf tabs (dont have??) off..... it thinks something is wrong with the system and just shuts it all down.

edit- my email address is edutil@greenmountainfeeds.com

bcd
04-20-2012, 05:24 PM
I didn't get the trim tabs, so I don't have the slave module that controls the surf tabs and PNP. I called and got a price on it - $750. Thanks for the help, but I'm going to stick with my current setup. It would be nice to have my level gauges working and not have to toggle my config to get the attitude plate working, but I'm not going to pay that much to have it work.

Nick911
04-27-2012, 09:37 AM
Thanks for all the info. Asked my dealer to run aftermarket sacs and got a call last week stating this problem with the 2012's. Last I heard they were looking for a solution as they had several boats (they are biggest MC dealer in world) that they were trying to do this too.

So, where exactly did you located the 3 extra bags?

FourFourty
04-27-2012, 09:59 AM
Thanks for all the info. Asked my dealer to run aftermarket sacs and got a call last week stating this problem with the 2012's. Last I heard they were looking for a solution as they had several boats (they are biggest MC dealer in world) that they were trying to do this too.

So, where exactly did you located the 3 extra bags?

I am just finishing this up, and everything works great in the garage, but I want to lake test it before i give the details on how to do it. It will be a fairly easy addition for a piggy back system.... two switches, two resistors, and a little bit of wiring. It would be nice if they just added a software function though.....

I have two 400lb sacks in the aft lockers, and a 680lb sack behind the observer seat. (beside the batteries and such.... it fits perfectly in the recessed area in there, so, it doesnt interfere with the batteries or anything else....

EA2010
04-28-2012, 12:15 PM
I am talking to my dealer (same one as Nick) to get a software fix for this issue. If I was told I needed to spend $$$ on the PNP option when I bought the boat, I would have gone that route ... but I wasn't informed that this would be an issue (and the dealer didn't know about this, either).

Kudos to you for being mechanically inclined enough to come up with your own fix. I'm not willing to re-wire everything like you did, however; I hope MC will get a software fix to us ASAP.

Nick911
04-28-2012, 07:58 PM
Agreed. If I had known about this I would have spent the money on Plug and Play as well. Lets hope MC brings us a simple software solution.

swatguy
04-30-2012, 12:50 AM
:And so the timer saga continues into the 2012 line as well...........geezus when will MC learn. On pumps run........off pumps stop..........so simple. As if the timers weren't enough of a problem on their own now they are attached to your surf tabs and attitude plate........this will be very interesting.........


:popcorn::popcorn:

Nick911
04-30-2012, 03:15 PM
How are the timers attached to the trim tabs and attitude adjustment plate?

FourFourty
04-30-2012, 04:45 PM
They are controlled through the same module...... There are two lenco modules that run the ballast, tabs, and plate. They relay information between them, and to the rest of the computers in the boat, via a cam-bus network

MIskier
04-30-2012, 06:36 PM
:And so the timer saga continues into the 2012 line as well...........geezus when will MC learn. On pumps run........off pumps stop..........so simple. As if the timers weren't enough of a problem on their own now they are attached to your surf tabs and attitude plate........this will be very interesting.........


:popcorn::popcorn:

There are liability reasons for the way the ballast systems are set up, even if you get the pnp option you dont get the bags from the factory.

Nick911
04-30-2012, 07:05 PM
They are controlled through the same module...... There are two lenco modules that run the ballast, tabs, and plate. They relay information between them, and to the rest of the computers in the boat, via a cam-bus network

I meant in a less technical sense. Can I not use the tabs or plate whenever I want? I haven't taken delivery of my 25 yet.

CantRepeat
04-30-2012, 07:31 PM
There are liability reasons for the way the ballast systems are set up, even if you get the pnp option you dont get the bags from the factory.


I blame CA and bad owners/boaters for this!!

EA2010
04-30-2012, 08:37 PM
I meant in a less technical sense. Can I not use the tabs or plate whenever I want? I haven't taken delivery of my 25 yet.

Nick, it sounds like some of the guys who have installed electrical mods to deal with the ballast timer issue have experienced the sudden loss of their attitude and surf plates.

From what I have read, they have subsequently fixed the (second) issue ... but only empowered by a serious understanding of boat wiring and electronics.

swatguy
04-30-2012, 09:15 PM
There are liability reasons for the way the ballast systems are set up, even if you get the pnp option you dont get the bags from the factory.

No doubt....that I completely understand, that's why u can't get 4 k from the factory what not, but there is no regulation stating timers need to have certain limits. Let the owner decide when to turn the pumps on and off. We are still capeable of filling our own ballasts and knowing when we should stop. Put the check valve back in and let us/see when they are empty like the old boats and we know when to turn tem off. Yes its that simple. While I understand with/all the computers its really nice to just go to a name and have the boat calibrate itself( awesome as hell) there should always be a direct overide in which on is on. Off is off. Just my opinion other mfgs have these options MC just seems to be too blind to see the need





In a sense here we have yet someone else(MC) telling us how run our systems and telling us how much we should be allowed. Big brother is evywhere. Hahahahaha

bcd
04-30-2012, 10:32 PM
Nick, it sounds like some of the guys who have installed electrical mods to deal with the ballast timer issue have experienced the sudden loss of their attitude and surf plates.

From what I have read, they have subsequently fixed the (second) issue ... but only empowered by a serious understanding of boat wiring and electronics.
Correct, I hard wired my ballast motors, so when I tried to enable zero-off cruise, the system first tries to fill my ballast. Since the controller is no longer plugged into my ballast motors, it thinks they're not filling and won't kick in zero-off. I found that if I go into the monitor and configure my boat to have the PnP option (even though I don't), it will enable zero-off without trying to fill the ballast. I thought this was the final resolution, but I've realized that doing this also disables my attitude plate.

FourFourty
05-01-2012, 12:49 PM
I meant in a less technical sense. Can I not use the tabs or plate whenever I want? I haven't taken delivery of my 25 yet.

You can use the tabs and plate independantly from each other, or the ballast..... It is just the same module that controls them

Nick, it sounds like some of the guys who have installed electrical mods to deal with the ballast timer issue have experienced the sudden loss of their attitude and surf plates.

From what I have read, they have subsequently fixed the (second) issue ... but only empowered by a serious understanding of boat wiring and electronics.

That is what happens when you bypass the whole factory system...... Doing this the way that I did, does not effect the function of any of those things. I wish the weather would warm up, so I can do the final lake test!! Everything works perfect in the garage, but we all know how that goes :D

Diver14
05-23-2012, 07:44 PM
FourFourty, I ended up just doing this. http://mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=47859 It cost me about 500 bucks and works great. Would be great if I could get the system to track it on the BIG though so I will continue to watch your thread :).

tr6coug
05-23-2012, 08:40 PM
Put the check valve back in and let us/see when they are empty like the old boats and we know when to turn them off. Yes its that simple.

EXACTLY!

The older boats ballast systems are much more reliable. Just because you CAN have a computer control a pump does not mean you SHOULD.

That said, I have found a way to reprogram the Jabsco timers to act as a straight on/off switch. I just need to get it installed in the boat and water tested, but I'm pretty sure it is going to work. I can also program them to run for a set amount of time then shut off. I've completely removed all of the current sensing and logic BS that is built into the timers.

Heelgrad
05-23-2012, 10:02 PM
When my dealer added the dual Enzo sacs to my 45 they just ran 2 new additional ballast pumps specifically for those new bags. No I can't see them on my BIG system but I don't have a problem with just looking under the seats to see that they're sucked dry by those new pumps. He added two new matching ballast switches to my switch plate to replace the power tower and and reverse light switches. It's a very clean install. I didn't order the PNP option which at this point seems like I got lucky because I'm not encountering the problems with any of my plates you guys are having problems with. I really hope MC gets the software fix taken care of for you guys so your timers stop screwing with your additional ballast bags. If I could just get the damn tower camera working properly, I'd be much better off.

501s
05-25-2012, 12:35 PM
Here is a thought. What about adding in a timed relay to the pumps. So when the relay stops receiveing power (to trigger the pump) it just keep filling for a preset time, say 5 minutes. Then just have the vent lines fill into the P&P bag. So when you choose to fill your hard tank the big will run the pump (via timered relay) till the hard tank is full and then shut off, but the timered relay will keep running for an extar 5 minutes to fill the bag. Would this work?

501s
05-25-2012, 12:38 PM
And I also agree with the author, this thread shouldn't be taken from the general Discussion. People who buy BRAND NEW 2012 boats shouldn't be looking in the "refurbishing section". I know it's the policy of this board, but I don't have to agree with it, and although I am new to this board and MC in general it doesn't mean that I don't know what Im talking about.

I was also promised the ballast upgrade and still have nothing. So I am kind of frustrated like all the other owners.

bjames
05-29-2012, 12:36 PM
Do the hard ballast tanks contain a sending unit that displays actual tank level on the BIG? Or does the tank level just go by a timer (assuming nothing is blocking the intake).

MattsCraft
05-29-2012, 05:45 PM
I don't have a B.I.G. but pretty sure the hard tanks are the same as my '09, there is a float and calibration screw. The PP counts rotations of the pump to calculate full. This possibly changed since mine though. Easy to check, the rears should have an access panel where the float is located. (Three screws on a carpeted panel in your rear lockers)

Diver14
05-30-2012, 07:38 AM
Do the hard ballast tanks contain a sending unit that displays actual tank level on the BIG? Or does the tank level just go by a timer (assuming nothing is blocking the intake).

The new x25 bases level on pump revolutions. No sending unit in 2012. They did it this way because timers are not accurate due to voltage changes.

bjames
05-30-2012, 11:54 AM
The new x25 bases level on pump revolutions. No sending unit in 2012. They did it this way because timers are not accurate due to voltage changes.

So in theroy, if the intake gets plugged and the pump impellor cavitates, the BIG will think the tanks are filling which in reality they are not. At the end of the day your tank could actually be empty when it is actually half full or the opposite. Nothing beats a sending unit.

Jibber
06-04-2012, 01:33 PM
This could be a solution to fill 2012 boates with aftermarket Sacs.
http://www.supersacr.com/
I didnīt try it. Has anyone experience with this system?

501s
06-04-2012, 03:56 PM
That system looks very interesting.

Jibber
07-07-2012, 06:38 AM
I canīt believe! A manual is online for the 2012 Madallion Gdig System on Mastercraft/knowlegecenter/owners manual!

Stefan
07-07-2012, 08:53 AM
Great find Jibber!