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View Full Version : Rolling to starboard side x2


Quinten
04-09-2012, 07:37 AM
While we were doing the break in period, we notice that our x2 has a roll to the right side even with 2 people on the left side. When we put the altitude adjustment plate down it will get worse. Is this normal or can we help this out?

erkoehler
04-09-2012, 08:42 AM
Check to make sure ballast is empty. Otherwise look at the rudder.

Quinten
04-09-2012, 08:44 AM
Check to make sure ballast is empty. Otherwise look at the rudder.

Ballast was empty, and the boat drove straight he just held/rolled to the right side.

BrooksfamX2
04-09-2012, 09:02 AM
Rolled?? Do you mean listing to the right??

It is not normal............

MattsCraft
04-09-2012, 09:26 AM
This is not normal, I have an '09, same hull as yours, evenly weighted, boat does not list. The boat will lean pretty easily if off weighted, but nothing major. Do you have surf tabs? Possibly one is slightly down or off?

Quinten
04-09-2012, 12:51 PM
I have made a verry quick drawing to illustrate what i mean
Empty ballast tanks, 2 people on observers seat.

Looked at the stern
If whe are not travelling, just laying it is even but if we get travelling/on speed its "rolling" to starboard but it is traveling straigt so it don't bent to right. It get's worse if we put the altitude plate down, we don't have surf tabs. Hope this make sense.

gatorguy
04-09-2012, 01:07 PM
I wonder if one of your fins are bent? But I would think the boat would be trying to turn right if that were the case.

ttu
04-09-2012, 01:08 PM
there are no tracking fins on current model x2.

gatorguy
04-09-2012, 01:09 PM
there are no tracking fins on current model x2.

Shows what I know....:rolleyes:

93Prostar190
04-09-2012, 01:18 PM
Interesting ... if it is only doing it while the boat is underway, it would point to the running surfaces ... the water is pushing on something (or not pushing enough) and resulting in this ...

if you only have the single wake plate, I would really look at and make sure it is totally level and even as it sits on the transom ... it almost sounds like something about that plate is not true ....

If that isn't it .... then rudder and engine alignment need to be checked by the dealer?

Keep us posted ...... (I am also safeuly assuming there isn't some kind of aero drag above the water surface? Like some giant 20 foot Buckeye flag or something like that?)

Quinten
04-09-2012, 02:13 PM
Nope no big flag, just the power tower and 2 speakers, one on each side

I will take pictures and make a movie later this week when we go out, probaly on sunday.

MattsCraft
04-09-2012, 04:01 PM
I hate to say it, but since it gets worse when the tab is deployed, (Changes the dead rise angle of where the water breaks on the hull) sounds like a problem with the hull. If the boat sits level at rest, you have no major weight distribution issue.

I can tell you, the X2 hull has not changed since 2006, first year of the new design and mine if weighted evenly is true down the lake, tab only changes the dead rise angle, I would be having my dealer out for a test drive! One other thing you could check is to make sure the tab is mounted square, I would think it would have to be off a lot though to cause the boat to list to one side.:confused:

esu
04-09-2012, 04:08 PM
Im 190, my wife in the obs seat is 100, we list a little. What do u weigh?

willyt
04-09-2012, 04:21 PM
might be stating the obvious here... are you sure you're driving in a straight line? It's much harder to tell than some people think (i always look back at my prop wash to make sure i'm driving straight) if you're turning, even slightly, the boat might want to sit on a chine.

if you are driving straight... i'd have to agree with mattscraft it sounds like a hull issue. Perhaps since your over in europe something might have happened in transport?

willyt
04-09-2012, 04:29 PM
i just saw your thread with the pictures of your boat. i'd be willing to bet if you do find that its a hull issue the cause is your trailer. I think MC's are pretty specific about where and how much pressure the hull can take at certain points - the bunks are specifically designed for each boat. I've never seen a modern inboard with a roller trailer and that might be causing your issue.

93Prostar190
04-09-2012, 04:54 PM
willyT and Mattscraft - I am with you .... if it only does it while the boat is moving then it is a result of the water as it moves on the running surfaces of the boat:

- hull
- rudder
- fins (although this thread says it doesn't have any? maybe it should?)

My only other theory is the rotation of the propeller .... before we suspect hull ..... maybe something is not correct with the prop .... can the prop be swapped out for troubleshooting?

Quinten
04-16-2012, 04:13 PM
Voila, filmed it last sunday.

No ballast. No stuff in cooler.
Co pilot 72 kg, pilot 68 kg so quite equel. This is the only extra weight. Enginge 5.7L ilmor.
Level when just lay still.
Level when cruising with no altitude plate down, maybe a slight roll.
Rolling to starboard when putting altitude plate down, maximum roll notice on the big screen 10° starboard.

Speed around 40 km/h.

http://vimeo.com/40472339

password for the movie: "mastercraft"

snork
04-16-2012, 04:57 PM
looking at the wake plate actuator, doesn't appear to be align

jakethebt
04-16-2012, 05:30 PM
That does not appear normal. As others have mentioned, since you only see this underway, it is probably from some form of drag. Is the wake tab "dragging" on one side? I am not sure how you tell.

This problem has dealer and factory support written all over it.

On another note, nice boat! It is amazing that there is no speed limit or no wake zone in the channel. If that channel was in the US, you would have the po po chasing you...

93Prostar190
04-16-2012, 05:40 PM
Are you able to take some measurements as is .... And deployed down?

I think that plate when down has more surface area left of the centerline of the boat .... The left side of the boat is rising more than the left resulting in the roll.

Can you deploy the tab down and take a look and send some pics .... The pics are in the position that doesn't matter (or is this as far down as it goes?)

MIskier
04-16-2012, 05:45 PM
You have stated the problem several times and have changed when the problem is occurring, when it is occurring is critically important. Does this occur only when the tab is deployed, or any time the boat is on plane? One is a simple fix of aligning the tab, the other means that there is a defect in the hull that is causing a slight dynamic instability.

The roller trailer while not ideal for long term use with the boat would not cause this sort of problem on so new a boat.

The most likely culprit is a misaligned actuator, or a bent tab. If that is checked and is not the case then the problem can be nearly impossible to find, dynamic instability can be caused by very small changes to the running surface.

Tri4X2
04-16-2012, 10:06 PM
I"m betting its the actuator on the plate..... it even looks off on the pictures. Take a picture out of the water with it in the down position and Im betting you find the problem really quick

davidstan
04-17-2012, 06:59 AM
I have the same problem to a lesser degree and it is the wake plate in my case not perfectly aligned. What's more, the plate retracts to only 95% up position instead of all the way up. :rolleyes:

snork
04-17-2012, 08:24 AM
Wake plate, Attitude plate sounds more like a Jack plate

MattsCraft
04-17-2012, 11:47 AM
After watching your video, your prop wash looks clean and even with the tab up. This is a good indication the prop is balanced and true and will show some differences if dinged or out of balance. It appears as the outside wake is clean and even also. Once you put the tab down, the prop wash is very uneven and looks to be higher on the starboard side. I can tell you on my X2, this is not the case, when the tab is down, the prop wash is still even, just with the extra rooster tail. This seems to me that the tab is bent or not deploying evenly, but way beyond my pay grade, lol. I would also be concerned and have the hull checked, why, as I mentioned before, deploying the tab changes the dead rise (where the water breaks on the hull) and this could also be a problem. Certainly I don’t think the mold has been changed since ’06, but with the new deck, not sure if the stringers have changed or an issue with how it was pressed in etc.

Jeff d
04-17-2012, 02:01 PM
It is amazing that there is no speed limit or no wake zone in the channel. If that channel was in the US, you would have the po po chasing you...

In Southern Louisiana that's about the width of just about every river and canal we have access to. Usually there's no speed limit but a few no wake zones near launches and what not. Where I wakeboard I've never even seen a po po accept once when a dude drowned after his flat boat overturned near the launch.

MIskier
04-17-2012, 02:59 PM
After watching your video, your prop wash looks clean and even with the tab up. This is a good indication the prop is balanced and true and will show some differences if dinged or out of balance. It appears as the outside wake is clean and even also. Once you put the tab down, the prop wash is very uneven and looks to be higher on the starboard side. I can tell you on my X2, this is not the case, when the tab is down, the prop wash is still even, just with the extra rooster tail. This seems to me that the tab is bent or not deploying evenly, but way beyond my pay grade, lol. I would also be concerned and have the hull checked, why, as I mentioned before, deploying the tab changes the dead rise (where the water breaks on the hull) and this could also be a problem. Certainly I don’t think the mold has been changed since ’06, but with the new deck, not sure if the stringers have changed or an issue with how it was pressed in etc.

Deploying the tab does not change the deadrise of the hull, it changes the trim of the hull, which does change the location of the stagnation line by a very small amount. The new deck has no effect on the design of the stringers or how they're installed in the boat.

MattsCraft
04-17-2012, 05:36 PM
Deploying the tab does not change the deadrise of the hull, it changes the trim of the hull, which does change the location of the stagnation line by a very small amount. The new deck has no effect on the design of the stringers or how they're installed in the boat.

Whatever Mr. Expert. In exact boat manufacture terms for “deadrise” you are correct, however it all depends on where and how you measure (Deadrise or transom deadrise) with a deep V variable hull.

My point is basically this, the tab changes where the water breaks on the hull, meaning the problem could still be a miss shaped or error in the hull itself and (possibly) not from the tab being angled when deployed. Second point is the deck has been changed in 2012, so I don’t know what changes from my hull (’09) if any where made in the stringers to accommodate the new deck design.

If you a marine hull engineer, than I stand corrected, otherwise, as I stated before, whatever dude, just trying to help the guy out that obviously from the video has a brand new expensive boat and it certainly is not correctly manufactured or assembled. My boat has been perfect from day one; I am an MC loyalist, but also a realist and would not stand for this from MC or anybody else I spend my hard earned money with.

MIskier
04-17-2012, 05:53 PM
I actually am a naval architect student, and was working at MC when the new x-2 deck was being designed, that is how I know that there were no changes made to the stringers.

Quinten
04-18-2012, 04:33 AM
That does not appear normal. As others have mentioned, since you only see this underway, it is probably from some form of drag. Is the wake tab "dragging" on one side? I am not sure how you tell.

This problem has dealer and factory support written all over it.

On another note, nice boat! It is amazing that there is no speed limit or no wake zone in the channel. If that channel was in the US, you would have the po po chasing you...

This a 3km long speed zone, we have several in Belgium, but out off the speed zone, than minimum wake, and 6-12kmh depending on the location.

Are you able to take some measurements as is .... And deployed down?

I think that plate when down has more surface area left of the centerline of the boat .... The left side of the boat is rising more than the left resulting in the roll.

Can you deploy the tab down and take a look and send some pics .... The pics are in the position that doesn't matter (or is this as far down as it goes?)

I will take pics when I come home friday evening, Studiying at univesity/acadamy now.

You have stated the problem several times and have changed when the problem is occurring, when it is occurring is critically important. Does this occur only when the tab is deployed, or any time the boat is on plane? One is a simple fix of aligning the tab, the other means that there is a defect in the hull that is causing a slight dynamic instability.

The roller trailer while not ideal for long term use with the boat would not cause this sort of problem on so new a boat.

The most likely culprit is a misaligned actuator, or a bent tab. If that is checked and is not the case then the problem can be nearly impossible to find, dynamic instability can be caused by very small changes to the running surface.

But we need a roller trailer otherwise we can't enter the water.



Already want to thanks everybody for suggestions :)
More pics and measerments coming friday.

hragsarkissian
04-18-2012, 11:41 AM
I have the same issue with my X25. With 3 people on the portside i still get some listing. Boat still goes straight but the listing is there. The wake is also slightly uneven (more wash on oneside). The boat is currently at the dealer and is being prepped for the summer. They are going to have a look at what is causing this. From asking around, I was told it could result from a bent prop, hull, or rudder. The last suspect would be the wake plate (mine was installed aftermarket, although it looks centered to me).

I will keep you posted when its back in the water.

Quinten
05-01-2012, 06:06 AM
Told to the dealer last wednesday, and he told me that it's normal when you put the plate 100% down.
Because you have a left turning prop, and you put the nose down you will get listing to the right. This will happen to when you put a lot of weight only in the nose. The effect of the propellor is so strong that it will get listing cause you get driving on the nose of the boot and the tail of the boat gets higher so you strengthen the effect. With more weigt in the entire boat the effect will be there but less.
It's like a helicopter with out the tail rotor will turning in the opposite direction of the head rotor.

The dealer recommend to not juse the plate 100% and not on high speed or just a little bit.
100% down he told me it was like driving a car with the brakes on at high speeds.

I hope my explanations was a bit clear. It was hard to put this in English.

davidstan
05-01-2012, 06:35 AM
Told to the dealer last wednesday, and he told me that it's normal when you put the plate 100% down.
Because you have a left turning prop, and you put the nose down you will get listing to the right. This will happen to when you put a lot of weight only in the nose. The effect of the propellor is so strong that it will get listing cause you get driving on the nose of the boot and the tail of the boat gets higher so you strengthen the effect. With more weigt in the entire boat the effect will be there but less.
It's like a helicopter with out the tail rotor will turning in the opposite direction of the head rotor.

The dealer recommend to not juse the plate 100% and not on high speed or just a little bit.
100% down he told me it was like driving a car with the brakes on at high speeds.

I hope my explanations was a bit clear. It was hard to put this in English.
Thx Quin, That makes since but it seems they should have allowed for that in the plate design don't you think? Others will come along and chime in that they have no listing at all so that makes me wonder also.

Quinten
05-01-2012, 07:03 AM
Thx Quin, That makes since but it seems they should have allowed for that in the plate design don't you think? Others will come along and chime in that they have no listing at all so that makes me wonder also.

That was the question I had to, why some will have and some don't.
Forgot to asked it, it was an a theorie training during the pauze.

Tri4X2
05-01-2012, 10:38 AM
this may not help... but with my 2010 X2.... this doesn't happen. I went out and ran it the other week at WOT with the plate @ 100 and the only thing that happened is the nose went down. I call BS.

jab
05-01-2012, 11:22 AM
Is the rudder perfectly vertical? If the rudder shaft is bent a little towards the port side and the steering wheel is turned slightly to the starboard to correct, that could possibly cause the boat to lean starboard underway.

gatorguy
05-01-2012, 11:41 AM
Told to the dealer last wednesday, and he told me that it's normal when you put the plate 100% down.
Because you have a left turning prop, and you put the nose down you will get listing to the right. This will happen to when you put a lot of weight only in the nose. The effect of the propellor is so strong that it will get listing cause you get driving on the nose of the boot and the tail of the boat gets higher so you strengthen the effect. With more weigt in the entire boat the effect will be there but less.
It's like a helicopter with out the tail rotor will turning in the opposite direction of the head rotor.

The dealer recommend to not juse the plate 100% and not on high speed or just a little bit.
100% down he told me it was like driving a car with the brakes on at high speeds.

I hope my explanations was a bit clear. It was hard to put this in English.

I don't buy it.:rolleyes: Sounds like a line of crap he is trying to get you to leave him alone.

madcityskier
05-01-2012, 11:50 AM
I would start by simply thowing a level on the top of the transom and on the wake plate, and feel where the plate meets the hull. Is it flush all the way across, the boat won't likely be level on the trailer, but is the plate showing the same as the transom. Should be pretty easy to see if it's level to the hull or not.

Shooter McKevin
05-01-2012, 04:49 PM
this may not help... but with my 2010 X2.... this doesn't happen. I went out and ran it the other week at WOT with the plate @ 100 and the only thing that happened is the nose went down. I call BS.

I call BS also. And since Quinten may not know, BS translates to "bull sh!t". An expression used to describe the fictional words that come out of peoples mouths when they don't know what they are talking about, and/or they want you to go away (like gatorguy said).

Holman J.B.F
05-01-2012, 06:14 PM
i,ve owned a lot of v-drives since 1999 malibu - supra and lately a few MC,s they all roll to the right in some degree.Blame it on the prop wheel effect,both my x-stars did this also.
Struts are installed slightly off centre to counter effect this wheel effect and rudder/steering force.
maybe it is just a shaft alignment problem.

93Prostar190
05-01-2012, 08:36 PM
Some of the recent posts missed that the boat only leans when the plate is in play ....l at speed with the plate or deployed, no lean ..... I think the owner was given careless information from his dealer.... No offense intended.

Something is not right with the alignment of the attitude plate
.... Just my $0.02 ....

I would recommend getting a Regional MC rep involved for their input on the situation.

Good luck!