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View Full Version : Fresh Air Exhaust – Yay or Nay


nkknutson
04-04-2012, 03:17 PM
I have done a lot of research about this product and can’t seem to find any negatives. It seems to work well, easy to install, and reasonably priced. The only thing I’m concerned about is it seems most of what I read, in this form and others, is from a couple years ago.

Are people still upgrading or making the switch to FAE?

Our exhaust baffle, from a 2007 X-1, is at the bottom of Lake Washington and we need to replace it however they don’t make our model and our dealer told us that they should match so we would have to buy two new ones, somewhere in the range of $700 - $1,000. I’m thinking of going with FAE which would only cost $450.

Any thoughts or recent experiences with the product?

prostar205
04-04-2012, 03:55 PM
I had one on my boat for 5 years and loved it but I had to take it off becuase i was losing too much top end. I truely believe the FAE works great on small block engines (RTP, LTR, MCX) but I don't think it has been optimized for a big block (L-18, 496) which is what I have in my boat. I noticed a ~10 mph difference. Also, with the FAE installed on my boat along with 2,000 lbs of ballast on 4 people in the boat I could not get the boat to wakeboard speeds (22-24 mph). It just would not do it and that's with a 450 hp engine. After taking the FAE off, it gets their no problem.

Unfortunately, my FAE will not be going back on and will be sold. I really miss the sound reduction it gives and the reduced fumes around the back of the boat. I think the product is great but better suited for a smaller V-8 engine.

If you're interested in buying it, let me know. It's the polished SS version and looks as good as it did when I bought it. I am local to the Seattle area so no shipping charges.

Thanks,
Tom

JLowder
04-04-2012, 04:18 PM
I am also interested in hearing reviews on FAE. I have a 2011 X-45 with the 6.0 Indmar.

CantRepeat
04-04-2012, 04:20 PM
Here is a video about CO and the FAE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7i0BjrGah2U

To me, it seems like almost no benefit. What I take away from this video is it will several hours of exposure in a boat at idle speeds to even start to feel the affects of CO.

prostar205
04-04-2012, 04:29 PM
Here is a video about CO and the FAE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7i0BjrGah2U

To me, it seems like almost no benefit. What I take away from this video is it will several hours of exposure in a boat at idle speeds to even start to feel the affects of CO.

I think the biggest benefit is the reduced noise allow the tower speakers to be heard easier. It made my L-18 engine sound like a little Chevy 350. Also, I can tell you after not having the FAE on, the fumes are certainly more pronounced and stonger compared to having it installed.

CantRepeat
04-04-2012, 04:32 PM
I think the biggest benefit is the reduced noise allow the tower speakers to be heard easier. It made my L-18 engine sound like a little Chevy 350. Also, I can tell you after not having the FAE on, the fumes are certainly more pronounced and stonger compared to having it installed.

Sure they are, but to what extent is it harmful levels? Not at all and like you said the loss of power VS the harm doesn't even come close to justifying the expense, for me.

AZX45OD
04-04-2012, 05:55 PM
In general, do we need to be concerned about CO when surfing? I always think of this when I am behind the boat surfing and see the exhaust rising out of the water behind the swim platform. Do I need to worry about CO poisoning?

vision
04-04-2012, 06:22 PM
In general, do we need to be concerned about CO when surfing? I always think of this when I am behind the boat surfing and see the exhaust rising out of the water behind the swim platform. Do I need to worry about CO poisoning?

Depends on your engine.

Catalytic convertors specifically reduce CO emissions and the risk of significant CO toxicity. However, a non-catalytic boat can put out some serious CO. Depending on your size, and how close you are to the back of the boat, you could be inspiring more CO than is healthy. It is definitely a significant risk for anyone sitting on the sun pad while the boat is running.

I love my FAE on my MCX. Unbelievably quiet.

Kyle
04-04-2012, 06:24 PM
This device makes me laugh. I am sure it makes it a little better vs not having it on at all but you still will have CO around.


I look at it like this. If you fart in open air, it stinks. If you fart underwater, it still stinks after the bubble comes up and pops....

Just Sayin

:D

CantRepeat
04-04-2012, 07:03 PM
Depends on your engine.

Catalytic convertors specifically reduce CO emissions and the risk of significant CO toxicity. However, a non-catalytic boat can put out some serious CO. Depending on your size, and how close you are to the back of the boat, you could be inspiring more CO than is healthy. It is definitely a significant risk for anyone sitting on the sun pad while the boat is running.

I love my FAE on my MCX. Unbelievably quiet.

NOPE!!! The type of engine will have nothing to do with CO at the surfer's location. ZERO

There is no concern of CO at the surfer's location. NONE, less then 10 PPM and this number did not change 1 PPM with or without the FAE!

It's just a scare tactic to get people to buy the damn thing.

CantRepeat
04-04-2012, 07:05 PM
In general, do we need to be concerned about CO when surfing? I always think of this when I am behind the boat surfing and see the exhaust rising out of the water behind the swim platform. Do I need to worry about CO poisoning?

NO, there is no concern about CO at the surfer's location and the FAE will not change the amount of CO at the surfer's location either.

CantRepeat
04-04-2012, 07:06 PM
This device makes me laugh. I am sure it makes it a little better vs not having it on at all but you still will have CO around.


I look at it like this. If you fart in open air, it stinks. If you fart underwater, it still stinks after the bubble comes up and pops....

Just Sayin

:D

LOL !!!! But you know what, that's about as close as most people can come to understanding where the CO goes when it leaves the exhaust!

vision
04-04-2012, 07:10 PM
NOPE!!! The type of engine will have nothing to do with CO at the surfer's location. ZERO

There is no concern of CO at the surfer's location. NONE, less then 10 PPM and this number did not change 1 PPM with or without the FAE!

It's just a scare tactic to get people to buy the damn thing.

Good to know!

What about CO at the swim platform or sun pad? I bought mine solely for noise reduction since I have a Cat Conv. Just curious.

CantRepeat
04-04-2012, 08:17 PM
Good to know!

What about CO at the swim platform or sun pad? I bought mine solely for noise reduction since I have a Cat Conv. Just curious.

I can not a test to Ragboy's test because I do not have the CO monitor but, at speed close to surf it's not a concern unless you sit on the sun pad for more then 3 hours.

If you sit on the sun pad for more then 3 hours at idle speed then you might start to feel the affects of CO.

This is just my opinion after watching the vids and boating for 20 years.

93Prostar190
04-04-2012, 08:39 PM
In general, do we need to be concerned about CO when surfing? I always think of this when I am behind the boat surfing and see the exhaust rising out of the water behind the swim platform. Do I need to worry about CO poisoning?

Sometimes you may be seeing steam rising as well .... depending on air/water temp, etc.

I have always wondered but if you keep in mind the open air and that the CO cannot accumulate the ratio of CO to good air coming near your nose/mouth is soooooooo low is unlikely .... you would really need it be kept in a smaller area and contained so it would not disipate to the atmosphere is my thought ...

I love the smell of boat exhaust in the morning .... it smells of .... victory. ;)

madcityskier
04-04-2012, 09:17 PM
Don't have it, but neighbor has it on a SAN210. Amazingly quiet with the FAE. I can listen to the tunes while skiing at 34 pretty clearly. When surfing I can hear the sound of the board on the water. I don't think top speed dropped more than 2-3 MPH.

nkknutson
04-04-2012, 10:17 PM
Thanks for all the great first hand feedback.

I think the reduction in the CO would be nice but to be honest it really has never concerned me nor is the main reason I want to get FAE. I think the biggest benefit is the reduction in the noise and it’s half the cost to fix my current problem.

If I lose 2-3 MPH not a big deal I didn’t buy a mastercraft to be used as a speed boat, as long as it will get to 34 MPH for slalom skiing I’m happy.

east tx skier
04-04-2012, 11:17 PM
If you're not surfing or idling in place with the kids sitting on the platform or back seat for long period of time, I'm not sure it's worth the money. I think the surfers have the most to gain from it.

iplount
04-05-2012, 12:09 AM
I had the fae on my 2008 x15. I did not care for the loud exhaust noise from the mcx engine. The fae definitely made the exhaust noise go away. Made the boat very quiet. Wakeboarding and cruising speed you could actually talk to the people in the boat. I removed it though. After it came apart a couple of times I got tired of messing around with it. Others will report that they have no issues. You do want to be sure to check the tightness of the dozen or so c-clamps before each outing. I did do this. Not sure why I had th issues. I ended up installing the silent turn down exhaust tips and ran those for the latter part of last season. This still quiets the exhaust noise. I don't think it is as quiet as with the fae but still much more quiet than without and the install is cleaner with less failure points. This upcoming season will prove how well the turn down tips work.

My concern has always been on exhaust noise not the co level concerns. I too feel that this co thing is over stated but that's just opinion.

CantRepeat
04-05-2012, 07:09 AM
If you're not surfing or idling in place with the kids sitting on the platform or back seat for long period of time, I'm not sure it's worth the money. I think the surfers have the most to gain from it.

The difference between with and without FAE at the surfers position was 1 PPM and without it was only 10 PPM which is well below the 75 PPM exposure needed for long term affects to happen.

CruisinGA
04-05-2012, 07:54 AM
Ya'll seen this - http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/surveyreports/pdfs/ectb-171-35a.pdf

amcmac
04-05-2012, 08:21 AM
I had the fae on my 2008 x15. I did not care for the loud exhaust noise from the mcx engine. The fae definitely made the exhaust noise go away. Made the boat very quiet. Wakeboarding and cruising speed you could actually talk to the people in the boat. I removed it though. After it came apart a couple of times I got tired of messing around with it. Others will report that they have no issues. You do want to be sure to check the tightness of the dozen or so c-clamps before each outing. I did do this. Not sure why I had th issues. I ended up installing the silent turn down exhaust tips and ran those for the latter part of last season. This still quiets the exhaust noise. I don't think it is as quiet as with the fae but still much more quiet than without and the install is cleaner with less failure points. This upcoming season will prove how well the turn down tips work.

My concern has always been on exhaust noise not the co level concerns. I too feel that this co thing is over stated but that's just opinion.

Do you have any pics of turn down tips? Do you remember where you got them out how much they were?

Kyle
04-05-2012, 08:22 AM
Ya'll seen this - http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/surveyreports/pdfs/ectb-171-35a.pdf

I wonder if those test results were taken on a typical 20 mph wind day with white caps or in a dead calm cove. Just sayin


This exhaust system probably will make things real quiet and more appealing to a private ski lake crowd where on a Saturday morning people who are trying to sleep in are not getting woke up unlike my straight exhaust.


Can any one prove this.


Say you are on a sport boat with capitains call exhaust. Running exhaust out the pipes sounds great but you can not sneak up on anyone. Running it through the out drive is quiet and you can go pretty much anywhere without being heard. So where does the CO go when running quiet when it's still there.


The only time where CO has been complained about on my boat (straight pipe) is when snatching the batteries at party cove and running it parked and at high idle for 30 min.
This device would not effect my situation of CO. It would still surface and be bothersome after a while.

CantRepeat
04-05-2012, 08:26 AM
Ya'll seen this - http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/surveyreports/pdfs/ectb-171-35a.pdf

Nice find.

What I take away from that is:

"At boat sppeds of 10 to 15 mph, CO concentrations on and behind the boat were significantly reduced when the FAE system was used. The FAE system reduced CO exposures to wake surfers by approximately 80%; however, in general the wake surfer exposures were fairly low even without the FAE system (mean = 17 ppm)."

And in the video I posted, RJ is at surf speed and distance with a CO monitor and they saw no difference in the CO level with or without the FAE.

Also, at idle or speeds near 5 mph is when you have the best affect with the FAE and even then the PPM in the boat was still acceptable without the FAE. In regards to riding on the swim platform we all know it's bad.

CantRepeat
04-05-2012, 08:33 AM
I wonder if those test results were taken on a typical 20 mph wind day with white caps or in a dead calm cove. Just sayin


This exhaust system probably will make things real quiet and more appealing to a private ski lake crowd where on a Saturday morning people who are trying to sleep in are not getting woke up unlike my straight exhaust.


Can any one prove this.


Say you are on a sport boat with capitains call exhaust. Running exhaust out the pipes sounds great but you can not sneak up on anyone. Running it through the out drive is quiet and you can go pretty much anywhere without being heard. So where does the CO go when running quiet when it's still there.


The only time where CO has been complained about on my boat (straight pipe) is when snatching the batteries at party cove and running it parked and at high idle for 30 min.
This device would not effect my situation of CO. It would still surface and be bothersome after a while.

It says no test were performed with winds greater then 10 mph and they had problems taking measurements when boat speed exceeded 10 mph and distances of 60 feet. Also CO concentrations were greater at 2 feet then 5 feet above the water.

willyt
04-05-2012, 09:20 AM
Since this report was put out in 2004... I wonder if they'd consider updating it for those boats which have the cats now.

Jeff d
04-05-2012, 09:34 AM
CO concentrations were greater at 2 feet then 5 feet above the water.

Well, when you take that big gulp of air right before your face hits the water in a fall that breath will contain less CO if you have a FAE.

CantRepeat
04-05-2012, 10:17 AM
Well, when you take that big gulp of air right before your face hits the water in a fall that breath will contain less CO if you have a FAE.

So if I fall once every 2 seconds for any hour straight I might get enough CO exposure to feel faint. :rolleyes:

nkknutson
04-05-2012, 10:24 AM
tom - PM has been sent :)

prostar205
04-05-2012, 10:54 PM
tom - PM has been sent :)

Got it. Response sent.

swatguy
04-05-2012, 11:35 PM
I have had 3 FAE's on 3 different boats and have loved them all. I ride consistently both with FAE owners and without. #1 difference is noise hands down. With it the boats cockpit and the noise behind the boat at rope length is next to nil. I love it for that. People can chill and talk inside without the roar of engine. Do I miss it on those morning sessions........u bet, but all the people I entertain and that come aboard with small kids and families can barely tell my boat is even running.


I also notice a difference as I am the rope guy on two majority surfing boats. One MC with FAE and one without. There is a huge difference in how long I can stay on the pad for rope duty. While maybe not truly harmful in the ppm amount levels I still feel the effects more on the boat without FAE and my ears buzz like crazy during the session. The boat with the FAE doesn't beat me up as much.

As far as surfing with FAE I don't know that I notice any difference in fume levels, but noise reduction is huge. You can easily hold conversation with a surfer.

As far as wakeboarding...........again purely a noise reduction tenfold behind the boat. The music is much clearer and the engine noise is almost nil.


As far as just skiing with an FAE.......in my opinion if you ski 50% or more its almost useless. For me it sends up such a huge spray and is getting such a huge amount of force at 33 MPH its taking a beating and you are asking for problems. I also started to ski more.....and the powdercoat has stripped off 3 times in 1.5 seasons running the ski speeds. I had zero issues with the 2 previous FAE's and the powdercoating. However now with my ski runs the powdercoating seems to not want to stick on this third one.

I know of about 25 people that use them, 12 I see regularly and would call buddies. Of all them not one has experienced any huge performance losses like mentioned of not getting to wake speeds or speed losses of 10+MPH. At least 7 of them have 2011 boats or newer w cat engines so I am not sure how the FAE can hurt performance that much when it actually cause a suction and helps air escape faster from the exhaust.

All in all for me worth every penny in my mind. The noise reduction for me sells it on its own, the reduced Co levels while arguably may not be harmful from the start are still reduced, there is no denying that. So any added reduction is a bonus.

maxpower220
04-06-2012, 10:16 PM
I won a free FAE in a raffle in 2008. It has been on my boat since that late summer. I am mostly a skier, but occasionally surf.
1. The noise reduction in and around the boat is great. The boat is almost silent at idle, at speed, it is easy to talk.

2. When surfing, it seems that people are less fatiqued that sit in the back or surf.

Since I haven't lost any power or top end and only gained less noise, it is a great product. I live on a private lake, so noise may be an issue, but I don't have to worry about it.

CantRepeat
04-06-2012, 10:20 PM
I won a free FAE in a raffle in 2008. It has been on my boat since that late summer. I am mostly a skier, but occasionally surf.
1. The noise reduction in and around the boat is great. The boat is almost silent at idle, at speed, it is easy to talk.

2. When surfing, it seems that people are less fatiqued that sit in the back or surf.

Since I haven't lost any power or top end and only gained less noise, it is a great product. I live on a private lake, so noise may be an issue, but I don't have to worry about it.

You won it, but would you buy it?

Jeff d
04-06-2012, 10:36 PM
So, is the reduction in top end speed due to drag or slightly reduced engine output? Or a little of both?

CantRepeat
04-07-2012, 07:52 AM
So, is the reduction in top end speed due to drag or slightly reduced engine output? Or a little of both?

I would bet it's from higher back pressure.

Splash
04-07-2012, 04:48 PM
Definetly worth it. Mine is not the official, it's a diy, but performs really well. No noise at all, no fumes, no speed loss and no washy wake. The 2007 x1 hull really loves it.

My friend's tige never accepted it and threw a lot of wash on the wake.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

maxpower220
04-07-2012, 04:55 PM
You won it, but would you buy it?

That would depend on the cost. For my purposes right now, I would buy it if it were a decent fee ($400-500). If it is more that that, I would venture to make my own.

maxpower220
04-07-2012, 04:57 PM
So, is the reduction in top end speed due to drag or slightly reduced engine output? Or a little of both?

Some experience a loss of speed, I have not. I would think that it would depend on your boat. A big block would probably have a loss due to exhaust flow restriction. A 1980 19 Skier would (if it did at all) have a loss from drag.

Larry Mann
04-08-2012, 10:26 AM
The following is from Larry Mann of Fresh Air Exhaust:
If a boat were to lose 10 mph top end speed then something is wrong. If a customer was really having that problem all they had to do was contact us to resolve the issue; he didn't. Fresh Air Exhaust has an excellent reputation for customer support and an excellent reputation as a product that works as advertised. Please note that a previous post says he is on his 3rd FAE; we have numerous repeat customers.

We make a larger FAE for large block engines; works great. We are not sure though if a large block engine requires a larger FAE; we are currently testing a standard FAE on a 454 cu in engine with thus far no report of performance loss. We have a FAE on a 2011 MC X-55 with the 6.2L Super Charged engine. While not a large block engine the Super Charger places a higher demand on the exhaust system. This X-55 has the larger FAE and was fitted with a back pressure gauge; back pressure never exceeded 2psi at all speeds and there was no performance loss.

We know of one customer that installed his FAE backwards and ran his boat that way for a whole season. The opening of his FAE was facing forward and thus the exhaust had to overcome the pressure of the water being “scooped” into the FAE. He said he had no loss of performance.

Carbon Monoxide:
FAE was originally invented to save the sport of wakesurfing. At the time California had pending legislation that would have outlawed wakesurfing. Through our development and testing, and testing by NIOSH/CDC we were able to demonstrate that the wakesurfer receives low CO exposure with or without FAE. What is evident though is that people sitting in the back of the boat can receive high levels of exposure; especially sitting with their feet on the swim platform.

While the levels of Carbon Monoxide are typically annoying they can under worst case scenario be dangerous. An idling boat can easily exceed 1100 ppm (the max my meter reads) at the swim platform in a few seconds. While underway the exposure at the back (or even inside the boat) varies considerably depending upon speed, wind direction and speed, boat configuration, etc.

Worst case scenario for Carbon Monoxide levels is with the bow high and the boat slow (wakesurfing) and the levels are highest at the swim platform; however I've tested one V-drive boat with levels around 180 ppm in the back seat. To put that into perspective, a fireman cannot enter a building without air tanks if the CO level exceeds 35 ppm; and industrial recommendations are that no one ever exceed levels of 200 ppm (and these are recommendations for healthy adults). At 1100 ppm someone could lose consciousness in a few moments.

The X-55 mentioned above had Carbon Monoxide levels of 3 ppm at the swim platform with FAE installed. On our first day of testing with the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) they monitored the boat and wakesurfer without FAE installed. The boat had about 20 CO monitors positioned all around the boat so they had a general idea of the levels of CO that were present. On the second day of testing we had Fresh Air Exhaust installed. At the beginning of testing on the second day we were idling while the technicians were verifying that all their meters were reading correctly. When we put the boat into forward one of the CDC technicians said “something just happened to all our equipment”. The drop in Carbon Monoxide levels is so drastic that we feel confident in saying that with FAE once the boat is in forward gear Carbon Monoxide is “virtually” eliminated from the boat.

Also, Carbon Monoxide accumulates in your blood so the longer the exposure the greater the levels of CO in your blood. Carbon Monoxide toxicity may be the cause of someone feeling bad at the end of the day on a boat. We commonly get reports from customers that they enjoy their time on the boats better with the reduced noise and don't have the feeling of malaise at the end of the day.

We acknowledge that we have had a problem with peeling paint on some FAE. We discovered that our powder coater switched brands of paint without telling us. We have switched back and gotten more aggressive on our metal preparation so hopefully this problem is solved (seems to be). I've seen FAE with paint that was 4 years old and still looked great. We warranty the exterior paint for 1 year and after that only charge $15 to re-powder coat the typical FAE.

We've had slalom skiers tell us there was almost no effect on their wake and we've had some customers tell us that their wake changed. If someone has a wake/spray issue they need to contact us to see if we can tweak their installation. Over the years we've made small modifications that have reduced the drag/spray. We guarantee customer satisfaction and have had less than 1% return their FAE.

FAE is patented (so it is illegal to make your own). We are an American company with legal employees and FAE is manufactured with about 95% American made materials.

Thank you for reading this,
Larry Mann
Fresh Air Exhaust

CantRepeat
04-08-2012, 06:30 PM
The following is from Larry Mann of Fresh Air Exhaust:
If a boat were to lose 10 mph top end speed then something is wrong. If a customer was really having that problem all they had to do was contact us to resolve the issue; he didn't.

Thank you for reading this,
Larry Mann
Fresh Air Exhaust

Is this the blame the customer angle of support? :rolleyes: I also hear you questioning the user or pretty much calling him a lier because he really isn't having a problem.

I'm pretty glad I don't use your product.

Larry Mann
04-09-2012, 09:04 AM
Yes, I am blaming the customer. If someone comes to me with a problem with their FAE I will work diligently to fix it; that is fair and the guiding principle of FAEs customer support. Flaming someone (or product) on the internet after they use a product for 5 years while making no attempt to work with the manufacturer is not fair.

I am not calling anyone a liar; I am saying this claim is not congruent with the experience of our other 1000 plus customers.

Larry Mann

CruisinGA
04-09-2012, 09:21 AM
Makes sense to me.

Hard to expect help from the manufacturer if you don't approach them with the issue!

SilviaMan
04-09-2012, 09:29 AM
FAE is patented (so it is illegal to make your own).


I'll make whatever I like for my boat and my personal use.
You are not the only person that can read and learn about Bernoulli's principle in fluid dynamics.

If I had been thinking of purchasing your product, that statement will make me a life time avoider of anything you have to sell.

zamboniman
04-09-2012, 10:10 AM
I'll make whatever I like for my boat and my personal use.
You are not the only person that can read and learn about Bernoulli's principle in fluid dynamics.

If I had been thinking of purchasing your product, that statement will make me a life time avoider of anything you have to sell.

Actually illegal to make and sell. You can make whatever you want for yourself ..

CantRepeat
04-09-2012, 10:10 AM
I'll make whatever I like for my boat and my personal use.
You are not the only person that can read and learn about Bernoulli's principle in fluid dynamics.

If I had been thinking of purchasing your product, that statement will make me a life time avoider of anything you have to sell.

You might want to be careful there, neither "use" nor "sale" is necessary for infringement.

SilviaMan
04-09-2012, 11:42 AM
Actually illegal to make and sell. You can make whatever you want for yourself ..

exactly my point.

I like the sound of my boat though, so it is very doubtful that I would make anything similar to this for use on my boat.

shepherd
04-09-2012, 11:45 AM
Actually illegal to make and sell. You can make whatever you want for yourself ..

Not true. Making or using is all it takes to infringe a patent.

CantRepeat
04-09-2012, 11:46 AM
Actually illegal to make and sell. You can make whatever you want for yourself ..

You couldn't be more wrong.

35 U.S.C. 271. Infringement of patent
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this title, whoever without
authority makes, uses, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention, within
the United States or imports into the United States any patented invention
during the term of the patent therefor, infringes the patent.

jab
04-09-2012, 01:13 PM
I don't understand what would be patented.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=tFlQAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false

swatguy
04-09-2012, 01:30 PM
Is this the blame the customer angle of support? :rolleyes: I also hear you questioning the user or pretty much calling him a lier because he really isn't having a problem.

I'm pretty glad I don't use your product.

I can see where a mfg is coming from. If a guy claims a 10mph loss and has claims to have issues and yet never contacts the mfg it screams red flag. I don't know Larry personally but I do know the support and info he provides for his product an that has exceeded all my expectations of a majority of the prioducts I have owned over the years.

If an issue had come to light or my performance was hindered in anyway the first thing I would do is contact the company. In my case that is exactly what I did when my Fae was inrstalled on my original x star. I was having some minor wake spray issues that were affecting the wake at wakebord speeds. It worked fine til the beginning of season 2. What I learned is I had a first version (being I have had several other models and wanted one for my x star and ordered it pronto) that was later updated. Some people experienced no issues but I had put on a much torquier prop so it changed a few things. FAE took care of the issues and was a pleasure to deal with and stood behind their product ten fold. What more can u ask for. This has been their reputation pretty much spot on across the board on any wakboat site. So if someone was having an issue then complains , posts his issues in a board, and never ever tries to resolve an issue by contacting the product mfg to asses the situation then yes its customer error period.

I am not one to call people out, but in the 8 plus years I have had use of fae and been a member of numerous boards I have never heard of any type of performance declines like that except for installation errors. I have seen first hand the way people interpret installation instructions working in the industry for a bit and you wouldn't believe the way people can put things on *** backwards or improperly and still not notice. Again I am by no means saying this was the case, but it may simply not be purely because of the FAE. To just dismiss a product after not trying to figureout a solution or what could possibly be wrong just is a bit odd. So if its never addressed how can u hold the tune of it being faulty.

shepherd
04-09-2012, 01:31 PM
I don't understand what would be patented.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=tFlQAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false

Try this one: http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat7387555.pdf

The inventor's name may seem familiar...

swatguy
04-09-2012, 01:40 PM
I'll make whatever I like for my boat and my personal use.
You are not the only person that can read and learn about Bernoulli's principle in fluid dynamics.

If I had been thinking of purchasing your product, that statement will make me a life time avoider of anything you have to sell.

People pay for patents for reason. You are incorrect in your statement about being able to do and copy whatever u want.

prostar205
04-09-2012, 03:23 PM
I had one on my boat for 5 years and LOVED it but I had to take it off becuase i was losing too much top end. I truely believe the FAE works great on small block engines (RTP, LTR, MCX) but I don't think it has been optimized for a big block (L-18, 496) which is what I have in my boat. I noticed a ~10 mph difference. Also, with the FAE installed on my boat along with 2,000 lbs of ballast on 4 people in the boat I could not get the boat to wakeboard speeds (22-24 mph). It just would not do it and that's with a 450 hp engine. After taking the FAE off, it gets their no problem.

Unfortunately, my FAE will not be going back on and will be sold. I really miss the sound reduction it gives and the reduced fumes around the back of the boat. I think the product is great but better suited for a smaller V-8 engine.

If you're interested in buying it, let me know. It's the polished SS version and looks as good as it did when I bought it. I am local to the Seattle area so no shipping charges.

Thanks,
Tom

OK, it appears my comments are stirring up quite a bit of discussion and contraversy. First, let me apologize to FAE and Larry Mann. I have spoken personally to Larry over the years and find him to be INCREDIBILY accomodating in the area of technical information and customer service. It is "my bad" for not contacting him about this problem. However, before contacting him I wanted to run my particular boat for a summer without the FAE to collect data with and without the FAE installed. Let me say one more time, I LOVE MY FAE and wish I could put it back on. However, along with the reduced performance that the version of FAE has yielded on MY BOAT, I can not put it back on for the additional following reasons:

1) I installed the MasterCraft 2011 center Attitude Adjustment Plate so now the FAE won't fit
2) I installed underwater LEDs and the FAE blocks too much of the light output

As Larry points out, they have developed a new version that is optimized for big block engines. I would DEFINATELY be interested in that if it can also be made to clear my Attitude Adjustment Plate.

Again, I truely believe the FAE product but the version I have (5 years old) must not be a good match for my particular engine combination. I would also like to say the Stainless Steel finish on my FAE looks as good as the day it was delivered to my.

I'll make a point to contact Larry and work thru this issue.

Thanks for everyone's support.

jab
04-09-2012, 03:28 PM
Sorry, here is a transom mounted underwater exhaust.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=r0BzAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&dq=1869749&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q=1869749&f=false

Some of today's patents are ridiculous, patents are for protection of an invention, not persecution of a do it yourselfer.

With that said the FAE looks like a great product and I would love to have a stainless one on my boat to cut the sound down for surfing.

shepherd
04-09-2012, 04:03 PM
-----------------------------------

swatguy
04-09-2012, 06:27 PM
OK, it appears my comments are stirring up quite a bit of discussion and contraversy. First, let me apologize to FAE and Larry Mann. I have spoken personally to Larry over the years and find him to be INCREDIBILY accomodating in the area of technical information and customer service. It is "my bad" for not contacting him about this problem. However, before contacting him I wanted to run my particular boat for a summer without the FAE to collect data with and without the FAE installed. Let me say one more time, I LOVE MY FAE and wish I could put it back on. However, along with the reduced performance that the version of FAE has yielded on MY BOAT, I can not put it back on for the additional following reasons:

1) I installed the MasterCraft 2011 center Attitude Adjustment Plate so now the FAE won't fit
2) I installed underwater LEDs and the FAE blocks too much of the light output

As Larry points out, they have developed a new version that is optimized for big block engines. I would DEFINATELY be interested in that if it can also be made to clear my Attitude Adjustment Plate.

Again, I truely believe the FAE product but the version I have (5 years old) must not be a good match for my particular engine combination. I would also like to say the Stainless Steel finish on my FAE looks as good as the day it was delivered to my.

I'll make a point to contact Larry and work thru this issue.

Thanks for everyone's support.



Prostar
Thanks for the clarification and presenting both sides of the equation. This is why I try to refrain from Jumping all over people without more info. Its simple. You decided that other things were more important with the underwater lights and the plate. So makes sense why u wouldn't try and run down something when in reality it probably would be more of a headache he to get it working with all the additions. Again thanks for the clarification.

JLowder
04-09-2012, 09:28 PM
I actually called Larry today and ordered FAE for my 2011 X-45 6.0L. I found him to be very helpful and look forward to receiving and installing it. (Will post pics after install.)

The way I see it, Larry went through the trouble to invent the FAE, pay for the patent and attorney, and perform what appears to be some fairly extensive R&D for the purpose of making boating safer. While I am sure the money doesn't hurt, let's face it, at $500-$600 each, the guy isn't going to retire selling these to the public. His only hope of making real money on it is licensing it to the manufacturers for mass production or legislation that requires it. I have no problem paying him for his IP and hope he sells a million.

Heelgrad
04-09-2012, 09:42 PM
I actually called Larry today and ordered FAE for my 2011 X-45 6.0L. I found him to be very helpful and look forward to receiving and installing it. (Will post pics after install.)

The way I see it, Larry went through the trouble to invent the FAE, pay for the patent and attorney, and perform what appears to be some fairly extensive R&D for the purpose of making boating safer. While I am sure the money doesn't hurt, let's face it, at $500-$600 each, the guy isn't going to retire selling these to the public. His only hope of making real money on it is licensing it to the manufacturers for mass production or legislation that requires it. I have no problem paying him for his IP and hope he sells a million.

I think I may consider adding an FAE to my new 45 as well. Did you get the unit designed for the big block or just the standard unit? I'll call Larry tomorrow and see what he has to say.

JLowder
04-10-2012, 12:10 AM
I think I may consider adding an FAE to my new 45 as well. Did you get the unit designed for the big block or just the standard unit? I'll call Larry tomorrow and see what he has to say.

Larry was going to go back and check his CAD's to see if he has fabricated the X-45 with the wake plate before. We are going to touch base in the next couple of days and decide whether to go big block or standard. I did take the polished option over powder coating, exhaust flaps, and quick disconnect. Larry is supposed to send me some pictures of the new "side mount" option. Will let you know.

Heelgrad
04-10-2012, 09:32 PM
Larry was going to go back and check his CAD's to see if he has fabricated the X-45 with the wake plate before. We are going to touch base in the next couple of days and decide whether to go big block or standard. I did take the polished option over powder coating, exhaust flaps, and quick disconnect. Larry is supposed to send me some pictures of the new "side mount" option. Will let you know.

Look forward to seeing what you decide to go with as I'll most likely do something similar.

X45fun
05-01-2012, 01:01 PM
I am also interested in hearing reviews on FAE. I have a 2011 X-45 with the 6.0 Indmar.

Just put mine on my 2010 X45 with 6.0 indmar and absolutely love it. I see no reduction in speed and can hardly hear the motor at 3000 RPM. It is the best thing I ever did to my boat.

Heelgrad
05-01-2012, 01:17 PM
Just put mine on my 2010 X45 with 6.0 indmar and absolutely love it. I see no reduction in speed and can hardly hear the motor at 3000 RPM. It is the best thing I ever did to my boat.

How does the FAE fit around your attitude plate while still allowing that to function? Would you mind posting a picture of your install so we can take a look at it? Thanks a bunch!

X45fun
05-01-2012, 01:38 PM
How does the FAE fit around your attitude plate while still allowing that to function? Would you mind posting a picture of your install so we can take a look at it? Thanks a bunch!

I ordered it with the cross mounting tube (no holes drilled in hull or swim step) so it bolted on the sides of the swim step brackets (not sure what they call this mounting config) It just cleared the top of the actuating piston by about 1/2" . I was able to install it without removing my platform and there were no clearance issues with the attitude plate itself (just drilled one hole on the side of the swim step brackets). The boat is at the dealer getting serviced. I plan to pick it up later this week. I will get the pictures taken and post as soon as I get it back. I have not had it in long enough to see what the GPH effect is but my first impression is that it did not reduce it. The reduction in sound is HUGE. Now when I am cruising at 2500 to 3000 RPM I hear the water splashing more than the motor. It is a much more relaxing ride. Not to mention the improved sound of my stereo system and that I can have a conversation while going 35 mph.

I also ordered it with the internal baffles/flaps so water would not go back into the exhaust when stopping (not sure it would without them but wanted to avoid any warranty issues).

As I said, it was a great purchase.

medicmoose
05-01-2012, 07:46 PM
Just put mine on my 2010 X45 with 6.0 indmar and absolutely love it. I see no reduction in speed and can hardly hear the motor at 3000 RPM. It is the best thing I ever did to my boat.

I totally agree. All the tests done can say whatever they want....when surfing behind our boat I can smell the exhaust much less and I get fewer headaches. The added benefit of reduced engine noise is reason enough to buy!

X45fun
09-25-2012, 06:37 PM
Finally took some pictures of the install of the Fresh Air Exhaust on my X45. This was the best investment I have made. Boat is super quite. Even when at full throttle you can have a normal conversation with the person on the other side of the boat. Hard to believe but true.

X45fun
09-25-2012, 06:41 PM
Few more..

Just clears the actuator by about 1/2"

kgrove
09-25-2012, 09:31 PM
Ok.... So what's the downside? Not detrimental to performance, quieter, better control of fumes... Almost sounds too good to be true.

madcityskier
09-25-2012, 09:53 PM
Get behind a boat with FAE regularly. Pretty sweet, but I like the sound of my stars and stripes. The loss of the rumble is the down side, but not a problem for many people.

Traxx822
09-26-2012, 03:06 PM
I want to invest in this. Purely so you don't have the smell. I like the rumble. Going from plane at 2800 and hammering down. All smiles. But sitting at the back of my boat while the engine is running is no pleasurable experience. I do way more of the later.

Your system looks great. Good purchase and it goes well with the boat. I want the polished one.

prostar205
09-26-2012, 03:11 PM
I want to invest in this. Purely so you don't have the smell. I like the rumble. Going from plane at 2800 and hammering down. All smiles. But sitting at the back of my boat while the engine is running is no pleasurable experience. I do way more of the later.

Your system looks great. Good purchase and it goes well with the boat. I want the polished one.

I have a polished stainless steel version that I'm selling because it no longer fits on my boat. I added the 2011 MasterCraft Attitude Adjustment Plate to the boat late year and now the FAE interferes with the plate. Make me an offer and we'll see if it fits your boat.

Thanks,
Tom

Traxx822
09-26-2012, 03:16 PM
Sent thanks.

mzimme
09-26-2012, 03:43 PM
You really can't smell the exhaust with one of those on there? Wouldn't it just bubble to the surface, or is that the idea? Have it bubble to the surface after the rider has already passed where the fumes would come back into the air? I wouldn't think that while sitting idle with the motor running that there would be much difference in the smell at the back of the boat. The fumes are still coming from the motor, they just have to bubble out of the water before you smell them. Am I wrong?

medicmoose
09-26-2012, 08:04 PM
Have it bubble to the surface after the rider has already passed where the fumes would come back into the air?

That's exactly the idea. I never really sit around with the boat idling too much so I can't comment on that part...but the FAE was one of the best things I did to my boat! Sure I miss the rumble of the engine once in a while but I'll gladly give it up for a quieter/smell-free day!

madcityskier
09-26-2012, 08:24 PM
It can idle quite a while with no notable odor.

CantRepeat
09-26-2012, 09:21 PM
For $800 bucks I'm fine smelling a little exhaust and having some what noisy exhaust. I'd rather spend that money on gas or beer.

kgrove
09-27-2012, 02:00 AM
As to the question of wouldn't the exhaust just bubble to the surface... at idle that may happen, but likely not while at speed. The design of the FAE looks like it intentionally exits the exhaust directly into the prop wash, so if the engine and prop are doing any real work, there is a high volume of water shooting past that's going to take the exhaust gasses and spread them over a pretty wide area under water. They may eventually bubble up to the surface, but it may take awhile and they will be spread pretty wide.

Traxx822
09-27-2012, 09:14 AM
Im guess no one has tested this. Idle not moving bubble issue?

JDC
09-27-2012, 04:25 PM
For $800 bucks I'm fine smelling a little exhaust and having some what noisy exhaust. I'd rather spend that money on gas or beer.$800? Wow.
I just figured mine even with the polished finish and I only got $560 ($480 for black). Must be a big difference between boat models.

LYNRDSKYNRD
09-27-2012, 04:33 PM
I'm getting one for my next boat this spring, fingers crossed, I hope to upgrade to a newer model boat. I'm usually the designated driver for the kids and their friends and think I would enjoy a little less cabin noise from the exhaust.

mzimme
09-27-2012, 04:33 PM
Im guess no one has tested this. Idle not moving bubble issue?

I can't imagine it's any different than any other boat at idle. My exhaust sits under the waterline while just sitting still and bubbles all day... smells horrible if I stand back there. Just putting the exhaust another 8" down into the water wouldn't change those results.

kgrove
09-27-2012, 05:44 PM
I've searched and can't find a good source of info... Is there a much cheaper and simpler solution available that just turns each tip down under the water instead of merging them and having them exhaust into the prop wash? If the most desired benefit as it appears from most people here is just noise reduction, it seems the cost and complexity of the FAE solution is overkill. In fact it seems like the whole design and concept was about ozone reduction, which most people here don't seem to value, and the accidental impact was reduced noise which most people like. Seems like there has to be a better way.

madcityskier
09-27-2012, 05:53 PM
I've never met anyone with FAE who didn't love it and believe in the results. As I said, I like my rumble more than I dislike the odor. I can hear my ski on the water at 34. We can sit on the platform with no odor on the boat that has it. Not for me, but if you're interested try to find someone to take you out who has one. I can totally see the draw.
And that's all I have to say about that.

JDC
09-27-2012, 06:30 PM
... Seems like there has to be a better way.As they say, "Build it and they will come". :)
It sounds like you're looking for the Quiet Exhaust. Others who prefer the fresh air as opposed to the exhaust smell and the CO look to the Fresh Air Exhaust system. If you build something different, I would guess you won't be infringing on a patent.

I think you hit it right when you mentioned earlier that they put the outlet in line with the prop wash to disperse it, and evidently it works great for that. The side benefit was noise reduction, IMO. I may be wrong though since on their website, the first bullet point is "- Less noise for better Stereo".

swatguy
09-28-2012, 12:51 PM
In fact it seems like the whole design and concept was about ozone reduction, which most people here don't seem to value, and the accidental impact was reduced noise which most people like. Seems like there has to be a better way.




The fae wasn't built to with the idea of clean air/ co reduction to the enviornment in mind. It's not a filter or a Cat. It was built with the idea of redirecting CO fumes away from the transom of the boat while at surf speeds and away from the rider. It sends the CO under water further which in turn makes the fumes surface further back. This prevents them from flowing right into the rider and into the rear portion of the seating area and swim deck. If u notice when u are at surf speeds the exhaust free flows right at you because the ports are out of the water. Fae staying in the water also creates a vacuum effect pulling fumes from the engine exhaust as your moving. Being in the prop wash makes the most sense because it will push the fumes under water and being in line with the wash and rudder it doesn't effect the performance of the boat. I can't say if their numbers they claim are righ,t but after sitting on the deck of a surfboat with fae for a day and without fae I notice a difference in the way my body feels. I was a rep at Centurion for 7 yrs. Spent a ton of time in surf boats. Is a boat without fae going to kill you while your surfing????probably not, will it kill you as the passenger?? Probably not, but it will help you from feeling some kind of effect or long term issue if you are a hardcore surf boat. So to me it does its job.

I am by no means a core surfer, but all my Centurion boats were set up with surfing in mind. Their sideswipe exhaust worked with the co reduction, but it was loud as the side exhaust port was completely out of the water. I maybe surf 2 or 3 times a month. After having FAE on all my promo boats my wife said "I don't care what it costs buy it ", after one weekend in the X Star......she wants the noise reduction qualities and the co stuff is the bonus :)

I hit a log or something a while back. Didn't appear to have damaged my prop or my fae. It didn't move. However my boat could not get a clean wakeboard wake after that. After some searching I finally realized the down portion if the fae shifted over in its sleeve about 2 inches. It wa still at the exact angle so I didn't think much of it after I her the log. However with that shift it acted like a 3 rd rudder being out of alignment and caused a crazy wash on the wakeboard wake.

As to the price well FAE doesn't skimp on materials. Their stuff is top notch. The price of metal has gone up. I haven't had one issue with corrosion, pitting, failure or installation. The only issue I have had is the black powdercoating come off on 3 of my FAE's. I have had them on my boats since FAE came out. I highly recommend the polished finish for this reason. It wasn't an option way back when I ordered my 4th for my X star.

kgrove
09-28-2012, 01:14 PM
The fae wasn't built to with the idea of clean air/ co reduction to the enviornment in mind. It's not a filter or a Cat. It was built with the idea of redirecting CO fumes away from the transom of the boat while at surf speeds and away from the rider.



I get that. My post was shorthand for saying "ozone reduction near the rider"... I don't think anyone here expects FAE to fundamentally change the content of the exhaust, just where e gasses are vented. My whole point was it seems the primary benefit people on this board are associating with FAE is not FAEs intended purpose and it seems like there must be a cheaper way to reduce noise if that's all you're after.

Good to hear you could actually feel the difference after the end of a day by venting the exhaust underwater. Maybe I'll have to. Look more deeply into this, though right now I'm doing primarily wakeboarding and am not very concerned about the exhaust.

swatguy
09-28-2012, 01:50 PM
Sorry man misinterpreted what you typed.


As far as boarding and fae. I can't say there is any other benefit than the noise reduction. I am pretty sure the exhaust has to bubble up before you, and well ,your riding way outside the wake a majority of the time. It helps to hear the tunes way more clearly, at a lower volume while riding at the end of the rope because there is next to zero engine noise out at 80ft with the FAE.

As far as the platform. While at idle. I don't think it helps that much at all. It's designed with motion in mind

scott023
08-19-2013, 09:08 PM
Larry was going to go back and check his CAD's to see if he has fabricated the X-45 with the wake plate before. We are going to touch base in the next couple of days and decide whether to go big block or standard. I did take the polished option over powder coating, exhaust flaps, and quick disconnect. Larry is supposed to send me some pictures of the new "side mount" option. Will let you know.

What ever came of the side mount option? Does anyone have this system on an L18? If so, what are your thoughts on it?