PDA

View Full Version : LPG Conversion


JohnnyB
02-25-2012, 07:58 PM
OK, gas prices would have to go up quite a bit for me to think about doing this. But, watching CNN and listening to all the hype got me wondering what it would take to convert my 5.7 RTP to LNG. I'm guessing the European TTers can chime in on this one better than anyone :cool:

mikeg205
02-25-2012, 08:11 PM
Was going to start this thread... thanks JohnnyB

skierdan
02-26-2012, 01:21 AM
ummmm.. i live in alberta. got ****loads of oil here. if you build that keystone pipeline you can have some.... if not no prob, we will **** it to china. they are begging for it.:)

Fab
02-26-2012, 06:30 AM
In Europe the LPG conversion is mostly made in countries like netherland, belgium...I have a 2008 X2 with the MCX with LPG systems...If i'm right there are some guys from TB Boten on TT that could give you informations...

Fab
02-26-2012, 06:37 AM
http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=44740

check this thread for infos about my LPG system...

You need to contact Holman J.B.F from TT, guess he will notice this thread shortly !

What price is the LPG over US ?

Table Rocker
02-26-2012, 08:16 AM
Are you interested in converting to LPG, LNG or CNG?

JohnnyB
02-26-2012, 09:36 AM
ummmm.. i live in alberta. got ****loads of oil here. if you build that keystone pipeline you can have some.... if not no prob, we will **** it to china. they are begging for it.:)

Ummm....yeah.....don't get me started!! Can't believe the Obamanation killed the keystone:mad:

Sent from my PB99400 using Tapatalk

JohnnyB
02-26-2012, 09:39 AM
Are you interested in converting to LPG, LNG or CNG?

LPG would be more practical for me but for many who have residential Natural Gas service the economy might be better....educate us.



Sent from my PB99400 using Tapatalk

Holman J.B.F
02-26-2012, 10:11 AM
I was wondering, when will the american waterski boaters see the ""light""

With the latest technique you won,t notice a difference.
let,s make this thread an educational one,just ask any question and i will try to answer by making a video with the right comment.

i,ve converted about a 100 boats or so but all the latest technolegies makes it more complicated
but results are getting better and better.In fact Dutch hospital Chevy ambulances run better on lpg than they do on Gas.
The days of a simple Impco set are over,...unless you have an older boat.

go ahead shoot.

Table Rocker
02-26-2012, 10:34 AM
LPG would be more practical for me but for many who have residential Natural Gas service the economy might be better....educate us.



Sent from my PB99400 using TapatalkI am far from an expert, but LPG is Liquefied Petroleum Gas (aka Propane) and is created from crude oil and hence goes up and down with the price of crude much like gasoline.

CNG is Compressed Natural Gas and is simply natural gas (not made from crude oil) under extreme pressure. CNG is becoming a popular fuel for vehicles in the U.S. due to it's lower price. The drawback of CNG is the size of the tanks required to give your vehicle enough range. CNG Honda Civics are popular in areas that have plenty of CNG stations (My boss and my brother both drive them - in Oklahoma). The range of the CNG Civic is about 240 miles and when you run out, you call a tow truck. You don't walk down the road with a fuel tank in your hand. The trunk of the car is full of tanks and you have about enough room for a set of golf clubs and that is it, but you are paying around $1 to get the same amount of energy as a $3.50 gallon of gasoline.

LNG is Liquefied Natural Gas. I know even less about LNG, but I believe it is natural gas that has been super-chilled until it reaches a liquid state. This process is used to condense natural gas enough to send overseas on ships. It is an expensive process to cool the gas this much and keep it this cool. The expensive transformation to liquid and its storage makes the LNG more expensive than CNG. A google search shows that there are less than 20 LNG stations in the U.S. Again, no walking to the station with a can.

That's about all I know, which isn't much. I would love to switch to a CNG car, but there aren't any stations in my area yet. When we get them, I will switch. My boat will remain on gasoline since there is no hope of a CNG marina within a half mile of my dock.

Fab
02-26-2012, 11:48 AM
One question for you holman, In France this is illegal to transport LPG tanks to fill them in a car fuel station, altough there is no LPG stations on water of course... I never had troubles with cops but id. Every boater was running LPG the authorities would come in the problem...how is the law in NL?

BlueRidge
02-26-2012, 11:52 AM
Running a large V-8 boat engine on LPG (propane) is entirely possible but not economical in my opinion. In addition to the cost of converting the engine to run on propane, you have the hassle of trying to find the fuel; not many marinas have propane filling stations located at the dock.

Propane and butane are extracted from the oil and gas produced from wells, nearly all of it extracted from the gas phase. With the increase in North America gas production due to fracing there is more propane available and the price of propane has dropped considerably since it peaked in 2008. When comparing the cost per gallon for the fuel you have to consider that propane has nearly 25% less energy per gallon than that of pure gasoline, so your consumption in GPH will go up. The ethanol / gasoline mix that most of us have to use has about 3% less energy density than pure gasoline.

Propane is stored in pressurised containers to keep it liquefied. It must be a vapor to burn in your engine. It is easy to vaporize propane when it is hot outside and the flowrate of propane is small. But when it gets cold or the flowrate gets too high, you will also need a vaporizer to generate enough propane vapor to run your engine. A heat exchanger using engine cooling water would probably be sufficient.

Nothing beats gasoline as a fuel for our size boats at the moment. Diesel is an acceptable alternative but not common. If you do make the LPG conversion let us all know how it works out for you.

Holman J.B.F
02-26-2012, 11:57 AM
we can transport 330ltr in original transportable LPG tanks,...but the tanks has to be secured to the vehicle.
Question for Fab,...how do the indoor forklift trucks refuel their tanks?...or are they all diesel,..even if used idoors?

Holman J.B.F
02-26-2012, 12:00 PM
Running a large V-8 boat engine on LPG (propane) is entirely possible but not economical in my opinion. In addition to the cost of converting the engine to run on propane, you have the hassle of trying to find the fuel; not many marinas have propane filling stations located at the dock.

Propane and butane are extracted from the oil and gas produced from wells, nearly all of it extracted from the gas phase. With the increase in North America gas production due to fracing there is more propane available and the price of propane has dropped considerably since it peaked in 2008. When comparing the cost per gallon for the fuel you have to consider that propane has nearly 25% less energy per gallon than that of pure gasoline, so your consumption in GPH will go up. The ethanol / gasoline mix that most of us have to use has about 3% less energy density than pure gasoline.

Propane is stored in pressurised containers to keep it liquefied. It must be a vapor to burn in your engine. It is easy to vaporize propane when it is hot outside and the flowrate of propane is small. But when it gets cold or the flowrate gets too high, you will also need a vaporizer to generate enough propane vapor to run your engine. A heat exchanger using engine cooling water would probably be sufficient.

Nothing beats gasoline as a fuel for our size boats at the moment. Diesel is an acceptable alternative but not common. If you do make the LPG conversion let us all know how it works out for you.

It takes about 120 - 150 hours on my LY6 to reach my break even point....after the break even point we save 1 euro pro Ltr of fuel,...my slammed LY6 uses about 30ltr so that would be a saving of 30 euro an hour,....or 40$ an hour.
have a few sets with some buddy,s...then do the math.

Fab
02-26-2012, 12:38 PM
Well i always saw indoor forklift using "domestic" gaz tanks, like the ones you can use for your kitchen for cooking for exemple ! When the tank is empty you just give it back to the station and take a new one, you don't have the same stuff in NL...LPG tanks for cars have to secured in the vehicle as yours...As it's illegal to carry more than 20L of fuel in jerrycan in your car, it's illegal to carry LPG tanks from boat to station...Stupid thing because we have no solution but to do it...Most of lakes/rivers in France don't have fuel station on water...

And i agree with you holman with the cost balance...The difference between gas and LPG is so huge here in Europe, in only one summer the conversion advantageous...

In france :
Gas : 1.50€/L
LPG : 0.8€/L

How much in NL ?

JohnnyB
02-26-2012, 01:49 PM
LPG for my tank at home is about $1.75/gal and gasoline will likely hit $4 / gal this week. LPG will drop when heating season is over, too.

What is the cost to convert a 5.7 L TBI engine?

Trying to figure out break even point?

Sent from my PB99400 using Tapatalk

Holman J.B.F
02-26-2012, 02:08 PM
Your engine will do with a impco model e vaporizer and a 425 mixer and those are cheap in the usa

tommy panfish
02-28-2012, 01:36 PM
This sounds very interesting. Can you describe how these parts are incorporated and how the tanks get mounted.

Shooter McKevin
02-28-2012, 05:50 PM
I am far from an expert, but LPG is Liquefied Petroleum Gas (aka Propane) and is created from crude oil and hence goes up and down with the price of crude much like gasoline.

CNG is Compressed Natural Gas and is simply natural gas (not made from crude oil) under extreme pressure. CNG is becoming a popular fuel for vehicles in the U.S. due to it's lower price. The drawback of CNG is the size of the tanks required to give your vehicle enough range. CNG Honda Civics are popular in areas that have plenty of CNG stations (My boss and my brother both drive them - in Oklahoma). The range of the CNG Civic is about 240 miles and when you run out, you call a tow truck. You don't walk down the road with a fuel tank in your hand. The trunk of the car is full of tanks and you have about enough room for a set of golf clubs and that is it, but you are paying around $1 to get the same amount of energy as a $3.50 gallon of gasoline.

LNG is Liquefied Natural Gas. I know even less about LNG, but I believe it is natural gas that has been super-chilled until it reaches a liquid state. This process is used to condense natural gas enough to send overseas on ships. It is an expensive process to cool the gas this much and keep it this cool. The expensive transformation to liquid and its storage makes the LNG more expensive than CNG. A google search shows that there are less than 20 LNG stations in the U.S. Again, no walking to the station with a can.

That's about all I know, which isn't much. I would love to switch to a CNG car, but there aren't any stations in my area yet. When we get them, I will switch. My boat will remain on gasoline since there is no hope of a CNG marina within a half mile of my dock.

I haven't heard of CNG cars before. Your post had me wondering if you could add an automotive filling attachment at home. That would be awfully convenient, and probably pretty cheap. I pay $2.82/GJ to heat my house with natural gas (all houses here are plumbed with natural gas lines, I know this is not true everywhere, especially where it is warm). I'll see if I can figure out a cost comparison.

Sorry about the Jack Johnny:) Lots of good info in the link Fab posted.

Shooter McKevin
02-28-2012, 06:20 PM
Edit: accidentally did the electricity calculation. Since I can't delete this post I corrected it, but now it seems wrong. Maybe because of the efficiency of an electric motor over internal combustion? Charging an electric car (or boat) is not very cheap at all if this is anywhere close to accurate.

Obtained from the internet...

1kWh of electricity = 3.6 megajoules
1 gallon of gasoline = 130 megajoules

So assuming the energy is extracted at equal efficiency (I have no idea if it is) equal energy of electricity (at $0.08/kWh) to 1 gallon of gasoline would cost $2.89
Or compared to 1 litre of gasoline $0.76 (we pay roughly $1.00 - $1.20/litre here)

Table Rocker
02-28-2012, 10:17 PM
I haven't heard of CNG cars before. Your post had me wondering if you could add an automotive filling attachment at home. That would be awfully convenient, and probably pretty cheap. I pay $0.08/kWh (kilowatt hour) to heat my house with natural gas (all houses here are plumbed with natural gas lines, I know this is not true everywhere, especially where it is warm). I'll see if I can figure out a cost comparison.

Sorry about the Jack Johnny:) Lots of good info in the link Fab posted.You can get a home compressor, but it is very expensive ($8,000.00 range) and takes about 8 hours to fill your car. According to my brother, the compressors also have a short life - what can you expect for only $8,000.00 :rolleyes:

This is a map of stations and prices. The price is for a "gasoline gallon equivalent"
http://www.cngnow.com/stations/Pages/information.aspx
(http://www.cngnow.com/stations/Pages/information.aspx)

Here is a link to the CNG Honda Civic:
http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-natural-gas/ (http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-natural-gas/)

Shooter McKevin
02-29-2012, 02:02 PM
You can get a home compressor, but it is very expensive ($8,000.00 range) and takes about 8 hours to fill your car. According to my brother, the compressors also have a short life - what can you expect for only $8,000.00 :rolleyes:

This is a map of stations and prices. The price is for a "gasoline gallon equivalent"
http://www.cngnow.com/stations/Pages/information.aspx
(http://www.cngnow.com/stations/Pages/information.aspx)

Here is a link to the CNG Honda Civic:
http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-natural-gas/ (http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-natural-gas/)

Thanks. Good info. $8000 is a lot, the 8 hr fill time makes it a non-consideration in my opinion. The map wouldn't show me any stations or prices (maybe because I'm out of country). I just realized that the $0.08 I used in my calculation is my electricity cost. Duh:noface:. I will edit that post. I pay $2.82/GJ of natural gas, so the gasoline gallon equivalent (based on Joules only) is $1.02. Now that is a substantial difference. I'm thinking automotive filling stations must charge a lot more than that.

Again, sorry JohhnyB, not related to LPG in a boat but it could be related to CNG in a boat...;)