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obsessed
01-28-2012, 04:39 AM
A very disappointing day yesterday, after putting much work into the new to me 2008 x2, it seemed ready to get out and start riding. I had already used it a few times, but found smaller problems each time, rudder leaks etc. All fixed now.

I took it out yesterday, after warming up the engine, pulled a friend wakeboarding for one set, then went to head back to the marina to pick up more friends, I accelerated to WOT and noticed I was not getting above 5000RPM and speed was around 35, I have just installed additional mufflers so I think I lost engine performance and that was the cause.

I decelerated anyway, and on the way back, all of a sudden I felt like I hit something, as there was a strong vibration and the boat slowed down, I was in about 6ft of water. I thought if I hit something it must be the prop, from that point the vibration was consistent and only when in gear and increased with speed. I immediately took the boat out, and didnt see anything wrong with the prop so I don't think I hit anything.

With the boat out, the vibration is confirmed to be there only when in gear.
I drained transmission oil (ATF) and did not find any metal. I had recently changed the oil, and it was still quite clean.
Thats all I've done so far. Need someone to please advise me how to diagnose the issue? Or does the whole trans simply have to come out? Or could the issue be somewhere else?

Jerseydave
01-28-2012, 10:11 AM
I would try a different prop first, sometimes it's hard to notice one blade that may have taken a hit making the prop out of balance.

35mph @ 5000 rpms is a bit slow. What prop are you running?

Extra mufflers? Did the boat have any to begin with or did it just have baffles in the exhaust tips? Your extra mufflers could be causing too much exhaust restriction and robbing you of power and top speed.

obsessed
01-28-2012, 11:22 AM
Thanks for the reply. I heard a rattle and had vibration when putting into gear when the boat was out of the water too. If I remove the prop and do the same I guess I can find out if it the prop. I'll take the prop to a machine shop and have it checked as it already had a few dings in it from the previous owner.

I have baffled exhaust tips, and installed some inline silencers from Rex marine, they are just baffles aswell. I did it to help with the sound. It hasnt helped much so I'll probably remove them. You think it would be too restrictive? I don't think it's the cause of this issue, but just mentioned it as it was the last mod I did.

mikeg205
01-28-2012, 12:25 PM
Thanks for the reply. I heard a rattle and had vibration when putting into gear when the boat was out of the water too. If I remove the prop and do the same I guess I can find out if it the prop. I'll take the prop to a machine shop and have it checked as it already had a few dings in it from the previous owner.

I have baffled exhaust tips, and installed some inline silencers from Rex marine, they are just baffles aswell. I did it to help with the sound. It hasnt helped much so I'll probably remove them. You think it would be too restrictive? I don't think it's the cause of this issue, but just mentioned it as it was the last mod I did.

Rattle when putting in gear? Could be a worn damper plate...

obsessed
01-28-2012, 12:42 PM
But would that effect the speed? Also there was more vibration the higher the speed.

Jerseydave
01-28-2012, 01:00 PM
Thanks for the reply. I heard a rattle and had vibration when putting into gear when the boat was out of the water too. If I remove the prop and do the same I guess I can find out if it the prop. I'll take the prop to a machine shop and have it checked as it already had a few dings in it from the previous owner.

I have baffled exhaust tips, and installed some inline silencers from Rex marine, they are just baffles aswell. I did it to help with the sound. It hasnt helped much so I'll probably remove them. You think it would be too restrictive? I don't think it's the cause of this issue, but just mentioned it as it was the last mod I did.

Don't put the boat into gear when it's on the trailer....you could ruin your cutless bearing in your strut...it needs water to keep it lubricated.

Noise when shifting into gear could be a bad damper plate.....which could also cause a vibration. I would eliminate the prop as a potential problem first.
You never said what size prop you have (it should be stamped on the hub)

obsessed
01-28-2012, 02:45 PM
The prop has 14.25 x 14.5 V OJ stamped on it. It's the original prop I never got above 40mph before installing the baffles. I don't require performance out of the boat, only a consistent 22 to wakeboard behind. So as long as its not bad for the boat or engine the performance loss is not concerning.
The noise was when it was in gear. Not when shifting into gear. And the boat became sluggish and could not get speed. It would just vibrate more when I accelerated.
Noted about the strut bearing. I won't run it in gear on the trailer again.
I'm going to put it back in the water tomorrow and try it again to try an figure out where it is coming from.
If there's any advice one what I should try or listen out for please let me know. Thanks.

mtajpa
01-28-2012, 02:57 PM
You may want to remove the starter and look for and metal pieces from the dampener plate. You can kind of see into the bell housing by doing this. Also while the starter is out the bendix can be lubed which is a PM item.
Good luck.

obsessed
01-28-2012, 06:05 PM
Thanks all for the replies.
I took the starter motor off and had a look, didnt see anything really out of order. Took some pics, tell me if anything looks wrong.

http://files.roguesquad.co.uk/mcx21.JPG
http://files.roguesquad.co.uk/mcx22.JPG
http://files.roguesquad.co.uk/mcx23.JPG
http://files.roguesquad.co.uk/mcx24.JPG

Also does this look correct? How do you check if the shaft is aligned correctly? Should it be centered?

http://files.roguesquad.co.uk/mcx25.JPG

Nutter281
01-28-2012, 06:29 PM
Sorry if this is completely irrelevant, but I noticed you said you drained the ATF out of the transmission....did MC/Indmar switch to ATF at some point as the 2003 V-drives require 20W-40. ATF is significantly thinner and may not provide the fluid damping required for internal rotational vibration.

Austin

mikeg205
01-28-2012, 08:23 PM
2008? strange. The damper is in front of the flywheel - or behind it - depending on your point of view. - It is possible you hit an underwater floating log.. unfortunately there's no shear pin. Is the strut true? I would check the prop.. take it off and measure it to make sure everything is true. If it's out of balance even a bit it will vibrate and its properties will be altered.

check this thread... for the damper....

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=44049&highlight=1008&page=5

Jerseydave
01-28-2012, 09:15 PM
The prop has 14.25 x 14.5 V OJ stamped on it. It's the original prop I never got above 40mph before installing the baffles. I don't require performance out of the boat, only a consistent 22 to wakeboard behind. So as long as its not bad for the boat or engine the performance loss is not concerning.
The noise was when it was in gear. Not when shifting into gear. And the boat became sluggish and could not get speed. It would just vibrate more when I accelerated.
Noted about the strut bearing. I won't run it in gear on the trailer again.
I'm going to put it back in the water tomorrow and try it again to try an figure out where it is coming from.
If there's any advice one what I should try or listen out for please let me know. Thanks.

That prop is good for wakeboard speeds with heavy loads (heavy ballast) which should be fine for what you're doing. You won't get 40+ out if that prop and that is the reason you're only doing 35 mph @ 5000 rpms.
The sluggish feeling on acceleration could be your trans. Nutter281 is right, your trans should have 15W40 oil in it, not trans fluid. Also check your shift linkage at the trans to make sure the shift cable is shifting the trans completely into forward gear. Have you ever changed the filter in the trans?
I'm still wondering about your prop condition....you said it has a few nicks in it so maybe it is out-of-balance.

Cloaked
01-28-2012, 09:29 PM
I'm still wondering about your prop condition....you said it has a few nicks in it so maybe it is out-of-balance.I have experienced vibrations from a small ding that one would think, 'no way that would affect my boat.' One tiny ding and it can vibrate as you have pointed out.

obsessed
01-29-2012, 04:33 AM
Sorry if this is completely irrelevant, but I noticed you said you drained the ATF out of the transmission....did MC/Indmar switch to ATF at some point as the 2003 V-drives require 20W-40. ATF is significantly thinner and may not provide the fluid damping required for internal rotational vibration.

Austin

I have a ZF Hurth transmission, the Hurth manual recommends ATF, however Mastercraft later said 15W-40 which is same engine oil can be used, and would reduce some noise from the transmission. When using the boat the previous few times I didn't find the transmission very noisy, and ATF is what was used by the previous owner of the boat so I continued to use that. If I switch to engine oil now, would there be anything wrong with the little bit of ATF that would mix in with it?

obsessed
01-29-2012, 04:49 AM
That prop is good for wakeboard speeds with heavy loads (heavy ballast) which should be fine for what you're doing. You won't get 40+ out if that prop and that is the reason you're only doing 35 mph @ 5000 rpms.
The sluggish feeling on acceleration could be your trans. Nutter281 is right, your trans should have 15W40 oil in it, not trans fluid. Also check your shift linkage at the trans to make sure the shift cable is shifting the trans completely into forward gear. Have you ever changed the filter in the trans?
I'm still wondering about your prop condition....you said it has a few nicks in it so maybe it is out-of-balance.

Yeah, wakeboard speeds and heavy ballast is all I need. So glad its the right prop.
Theres a stamp on the transmission that says ATF, so I dont think ATF is wrong to use, but as I said in the previous post, it would be fine to use 15w40 also. I havent checked the filter, the head is stripped on the screw that holds it in place so need to find a way to get it out.
I checked the linkage already, it is shifting correctly.
When I got the boat from the previous owner there was a ding on one of the blades of the prop, I planned to get it fixed soon, but didn't do it yet as it wasn't causing any vibrations or problems. The prop still looks exactly the same as when I got it, Ill get it checked out anyway.

@mgorczak1
How do I check if the strut is true?
Last night I held the prop with 2 hands and lifted it up and down, it does move up and down slightly with the shaft. I checked another mastercraft in the marina and it didnt have any play at all. Is this normal?

mikeg205
01-29-2012, 11:37 AM
The strut should be perpendicular to the hull of the boat. You can also measure from the bottom center of the strut to the port and starboard edge of hull - distance must be the same.

Regarding the play...the cutlass bearing is worn. How much play do you have up and down? The play would cause your vibration as the shaft moved up and down in the strut. I would change the bearing if I had significant play. Not a hard project from what I have read...just a pain...if its just up and down where - I would check the alignment of the prop shaft, obviously has put downward pressure on cutlass bearing.

I always check my bearing because I have a 95' and its still in good shape.

X-1Texas
01-29-2012, 02:52 PM
Last year I had a drive train problem with my 07 X1. Hit the prop on the edge of the concrete ramp when the lake was low. Anyway, I replaced the shaft, strut and bought someone's spare reconditioned prop. After putting everything together it was fine at slower speeds, but when I got up over 30 it would start to vibrate. So I bought a new prop and got the other one reconditioned again for a spare. Problem solved everything is perfect now.

Your prop shaft and strut have to be perfectly aligned with the flange on the transmission. There's tons of info on this board how to do it. Basically you'll need to remove the bolts from the coupler at the end of shaft where it bolts to the transmission and then get the two flanges to break loose from each other. You can tap with a hammer and block of wood. Could also tap the prop end of shaft with a hammer and block of wood. Once you have the two flanges apart you check the two faces to make sure they perfectly parallel to each other. Use a feeler gauges to check gap between the flanges. Rotate the prop shaft, adjust the position of the motor and keep checking the gap until it's consistent all the way around. Can't remember, but I think within about .005 - .006" is good. You pick up a set of feeler gauges at Autozone for about $5-6.

Another quick note, you should be able to easily spin your prop with one had when you take your boat out the water.

obsessed
01-29-2012, 05:05 PM
Thanks for all the replies.
I put the boat in the water today to try it out. And all the vibrations were gone! Now im lost...
If it happened once, it will likely happen again soon right? But am not sure why it happened in the first place , Im thinking the shaft is not aligned perfectly, and the strut bearing is wearing out, currently the play is no more than 2 or 3 mm id say.

Since the vibration happened, I immediately pulled the boat out.
Checked trans linkage, fine.
Removed rudder (to try and get prop off, but didn't end up doing it)
Drained trans oil
Removed starter motor
greased and reinstalled starter motor
Refilled trans with ATF
reinstalled rudder

And now all is good...? Which one of those things could have sorted the issue, even if temporarily?
Should I use it normally until I notice anything again? Or should I get something fixed?

mikeg205
01-29-2012, 05:12 PM
Change the cutlass bearing a 2-3mm vertical gap will cause vibration. I bet the vertical alignment is ff as well.

emnesto
01-29-2012, 07:06 PM
Any chance you could have caught some debris, like weeds, fishing line, or a discarded ice bag.

Cloaked
01-29-2012, 07:18 PM
Thanks for all the replies.
I put the boat in the water today to try it out. And all the vibrations were gone! Now im lost...
If it happened once, it will likely happen again soon right? But am not sure why it happened in the first place , Im thinking the shaft is not aligned perfectly, and the strut bearing is wearing out, currently the play is no more than 2 or 3 mm id say.

Since the vibration happened, I immediately pulled the boat out.
Checked trans linkage, fine.
Removed rudder (to try and get prop off, but didn't end up doing it)
Drained trans oil
Removed starter motor
greased and reinstalled starter motor
Refilled trans with ATF
reinstalled rudder

And now all is good...? Which one of those things could have sorted the issue, even if temporarily?
Should I use it normally until I notice anything again? Or should I get something fixed?Food for thought........

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/replacing_a_cutlass


.

obsessed
01-30-2012, 02:56 AM
I guess it's possible it was some debris. But can't be sure.

Can I change the cutlass bearing with the shaft still in? Or do I have to remove the shaft and then align it again?

obsessed
01-30-2012, 04:08 AM
Food for thought........

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/replacing_a_cutlass


.

Thanks for the link, very good.

X-1Texas
01-30-2012, 10:51 AM
You probably won't be able to replace the bearing without removing the shaft. Unless you take the strut off the boat. Alignment should be done when you're putting it all back together.

Not sure about your 08 X2, but in my 07 X1 I had to remove the back seat to take the shaft out.