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View Full Version : Keep blowing wetsound pro485 speakers...


agarabaghi
12-04-2011, 11:40 PM
Bah, another speaker died on me.

It plays but it sounds super rattly and distorted. I took the 2 8" drivers out and the horn from the pod. One of the 8" plays fine, and the horn plays fine, but the other 8" plays like a metal spring is loose on the inside.

This will be the 2nd replacement 8" driver ive had to buy for my pro 485 pod.

Im running the pod off channels 5/6 on a Syn6 bridged. I set the gain with a DMM so im not exactly sure why they keep dying on me.

mikeg205
12-05-2011, 08:03 AM
talk to the folks at parts express - they may help...

http://www.parts-express.com/index.cfm

I have had a few drivers repaired for cheap....maybe they can telll you why.

agarabaghi
12-05-2011, 08:37 AM
Yea, unfortunately the xmas parade is saturday and i think im going to bite the bullet and order another speaker from wetsounds.

Ive been looking at some of the 8" drivers on parts-express and a lot of them look like they would fit. They are also ALOT cheaper than the $170 wetsounds wants for a replacement driver.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=290-314

or

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=290-315

EarmarkMarine
12-05-2011, 09:08 AM
Aga,
You are driving too much power into your speakers. It doesn't matter which amplifier or which speakers. Power (not distortion) blows speakers. You have probably burnt the copper voice coil, burnt the enamel coating that insulates the individual coil windings, melted the adhesive that bonds the voice coil wires to the former/bobbin or distorted the shape of the former from heat (takes about 750 degrees). All these materials essentially deform, burn or melt at the same temperature regardless of the speaker brand.
If you have blown on 8-inch speaker then the other 8-inch is likely damaged to the point that its failure will soon follow.
Bridging channels 5 and 6 of the Syn6 produces 600 watts into a 4-ohm load. You cannot bridged into a 2-ohm load which would be dual Pro485s in parallel. But you can run a single that way. Channels 1/2 and 3/4 are not enough power to properly drive dual Pro485s. So I assume that you have a 3-Some but it doesn't matter.
There are any number of factors that would make your music signal to the amplifier input very different from the DMM that you used to set the gains. Compressed downloads, downloads of questionable origin, equalization and a heavy foot on the volume pedal to name a few.
The cure is to keep the amplifier or any component in the signal path prior to the amplifier from being driven into a compressed state where it keeps the speaker energized for an inordinate period as compared to a normal unclipped signal. In order to do that you must have an audible sense of what clipping, compression or distortion sounds like. Its better to tune your system by ear according to the unity gain sequence beginning with the HU. Follow the basic tuning instructions on the Wetsounds website. Establish what clipping is in a quiet setting and compare that to the gain level on the source unit. When you are out on the water in a noisy setting always respect and do not exceed that same visual numeric value displayed on the HU or remote control.
You can't hear the compression very well when underway. As the day goes on and your auditory system gets tramatised, everything ceases to sound loud. As you heat up the speaker's voice coil it may double its resistance value which means a corresponding drop in output. You can't keep turning it up in an attempt to compensate for these factors.
Also, make sure that the active crossover highpass setting for your tower is appropriate for how you use them. A lower setting down to 80 Hz may produce more midbass in a quiet and near field setting. As you raise the highpass frequency up to as high as 120 Hz, you wiil extend the volume and projection while increasing the power handling of the speaker.
Absolutely no bass boost or EQ on the tower speakers.

David
Earmark Marine

agarabaghi
12-05-2011, 09:12 AM
I just have one pro485. Running it on channels 5/6 bridged, and i set the gain to 39v by a dmm. Everything is off on the headunit, and the EQ is set to 0db for everythign except the low range which ive turn town since i dont want bass coming from the tower speakers.

The syn6 is set to hpf and crossover around 200hz

Im guessing when my friend blew up the 1st speaker, it caused some damage to the other speaker, but not enough to notice yet. I guess with time, the 2nd speaker failed.

I used a 1000hz test tone to set the gain.

agarabaghi
12-05-2011, 09:13 AM
Sorry 49, not 39. I got 49 by doing sqrt(600rms * 4 ohms).

EarmarkMarine
12-05-2011, 09:14 AM
Speakers are not linear devices. Even though the resistance or nominal impedance spec is close to the same as measured with a DC meter, the impedance curve and frequency curve may be VERY different and will not interface the same with the passive lowpass filter contained in the Pro485. So stay with the original driver if you want it to sound right.

David
Earmark Marine

EarmarkMarine
12-05-2011, 09:21 AM
200 Hz highpass is really high and that would normally protect the midbass speaker from a little abuse. Double check everything just to be safe.

David
Earmark Marine

agarabaghi
12-05-2011, 09:36 AM
Speakers are not linear devices. Even though the resistance or nominal impedance spec is close to the same as measured with a DC meter, the impedance curve and frequency curve may be VERY different and will not interface the same with the passive lowpass filter contained in the Pro485. So stay with the original driver if you want it to sound right.

David
Earmark Marine

Understood, which is why i just ordered another replacement from wetsound. John cut me a deal which was nice.

I spent hours yesterday trying to figure out the issue. The amp was going into Fault mode, which it flashing pause flash flash. This according to the manual was "speaker short". I checked all the wiring, lowered the gain etc... still would cut out at high vol. That was when i decided to unplug all the drivers and tweeter and test them individually. I hooked them up to my ht receiver and that is when I noticed one of the drivers sounded like a soda can with pennies in it. The tweeter and other driver sound crisp and clean.

I spoke with John and we both agreed that more than likely when the stereo was turned up way past the level i had tuned it to (for reference it was turned up to 34, when I had set all my gains at level 25 on the vol) that it blew one of the speakers, and must have damaged the second speaker, but not blown it completely. John explain how the speakers being mechanical can be slightly damaged and progressively get worse.

I will re tune the amp and speaker when i get the new one, which will hopefully be here by wed.

mikeg205
12-05-2011, 10:23 AM
Aga,
You are driving too much power into your speakers. It doesn't matter which amplifier or which speakers. Power (not distortion) blows speakers. You have probably burnt the copper voice coil, burnt the enamel coating that insulates the individual coil windings, melted the adhesive that bonds the voice coil wires to the former/bobbin or distorted the shape of the former from heat (takes about 750 degrees). All these materials essentially deform, burn or melt at the same temperature regardless of the speaker brand.
If you have blown on 8-inch speaker then the other 8-inch is likely damaged to the point that its failure will soon follow.
Bridging channels 5 and 6 of the Syn6 produces 600 watts into a 4-ohm load. You cannot bridged into a 2-ohm load which would be dual Pro485s in parallel. But you can run a single that way. Channels 1/2 and 3/4 are not enough power to properly drive dual Pro485s. So I assume that you have a 3-Some but it doesn't matter.
There are any number of factors that would make your music signal to the amplifier input very different from the DMM that you used to set the gains. Compressed downloads, downloads of questionable origin, equalization and a heavy foot on the volume pedal to name a few.
The cure is to keep the amplifier or any component in the signal path prior to the amplifier from being driven into a compressed state where it keeps the speaker energized for an inordinate period as compared to a normal unclipped signal. In order to do that you must have an audible sense of what clipping, compression or distortion sounds like. Its better to tune your system by ear according to the unity gain sequence beginning with the HU. Follow the basic tuning instructions on the Wetsounds website. Establish what clipping is in a quiet setting and compare that to the gain level on the source unit. When you are out on the water in a noisy setting always respect and do not exceed that same visual numeric value displayed on the HU or remote control.
You can't hear the compression very well when underway. As the day goes on and your auditory system gets tramatised, everything ceases to sound loud. As you heat up the speaker's voice coil it may double its resistance value which means a corresponding drop in output. You can't keep turning it up in an attempt to compensate for these factors.
Also, make sure that the active crossover highpass setting for your tower is appropriate for how you use them. A lower setting down to 80 Hz may produce more midbass in a quiet and near field setting. As you raise the highpass frequency up to as high as 120 Hz, you wiil extend the volume and projection while increasing the power handling of the speaker.
Absolutely no bass boost or EQ on the tower speakers.

David
Earmark Marine

Great explanation David!!!

JimN
12-05-2011, 10:44 AM
Bah, another speaker died on me.

It plays but it sounds super rattly and distorted. I took the 2 8" drivers out and the horn from the pod. One of the 8" plays fine, and the horn plays fine, but the other 8" plays like a metal spring is loose on the inside.

This will be the 2nd replacement 8" driver ive had to buy for my pro 485 pod.

Im running the pod off channels 5/6 on a Syn6 bridged. I set the gain with a DMM so im not exactly sure why they keep dying on me.

Describe the method for setting the input level controls with a DMM. If you didn't start by finding the max clean output of the head unit, you need to start over. Also, doing this by ear is best left to those who really know how to listen for distortion- if you have only done it that way a few times, I can guarantee the head unit and amps are cranking out a lot more distortion than you think and if the output of each gain stage is too high, the overall power delivered to the speakers is higher than they can handle. That springy sound is your voice coil.

What voltage did you see at the speaker terminals? Use EČ/(R/.707) (Voltage squared, divided by resistance- divide R by .707 to come up with an approximation for Impedance) to determine the power, but only after measuring the DC resistance of the speakers on that part of the circuit (in case you connected them is parallel).

Ditto re: David's comments about our hearing being assaulted every day (and everything else). If you know anyone with an oscilloscope, use that. Also, you need to know that the alternator's output is different at idle or with the key off, compared with when you're at about 2000RPM or more. That means the head unit's output will be higher and you'll clip the input to the amps and anything between them and the head unit.

If you decide to use a 'scope and can't find one, go to AVSForum and download Room EQ Wizard. You'll need a microphone and possibly an adapter so you can plug into your computer to use the program's oscilloscope function.

agarabaghi
12-05-2011, 11:10 AM
Describe the method for setting the input level controls with a DMM. If you didn't start by finding the max clean output of the head unit, you need to start over. Also, doing this by ear is best left to those who really know how to listen for distortion- if you have only done it that way a few times, I can guarantee the head unit and amps are cranking out a lot more distortion than you think and if the output of each gain stage is too high, the overall power delivered to the speakers is higher than they can handle. That springy sound is your voice coil.

What voltage did you see at the speaker terminals? Use EČ/(R/.707) (Voltage squared, divided by resistance- divide R by .707 to come up with an approximation for Impedance) to determine the power, but only after measuring the DC resistance of the speakers on that part of the circuit (in case you connected them is parallel).

Ditto re: David's comments about our hearing being assaulted every day (and everything else). If you know anyone with an oscilloscope, use that. Also, you need to know that the alternator's output is different at idle or with the key off, compared with when you're at about 2000RPM or more. That means the head unit's output will be higher and you'll clip the input to the amps and anything between them and the head unit.

If you decide to use a 'scope and can't find one, go to AVSForum and download Room EQ Wizard. You'll need a microphone and possibly an adapter so you can plug into your computer to use the program's oscilloscope function.

Let's see how i do...

First, im not using the headunit. The headunit feeds into a PPI EQ with 8v preout.
Ch 1 + 2 are hooked up from the syn6 to the front rca of the EQ
The Syn6 is set to feed the signal from Ch 1 + 2 to Ch 3 + 4 to remove the need for more RCA.
Ch 5 + 6 are wired at 4 ohm bridged (600x1) and hooked upto the Rear RCA of the EQ. This powers the Pro485 pod.

I then grab a 1000hz sine way test tone from Realm of Excursion. Since the source of music is always from the iPod i used that to tune with. The ipod hooks up to the headunit, which then hooks up to the "CD" aux of the EQ. This allows me to use the remote by the throttle to control vol, while using the iPod to control tracks (personal preference).

I took the equation "sqrt(Wattsrms * ohm)" to get voltage. In this case it was sqrt(600 * 4) = ~49v.

With the DMM hook up to the positive and negative on ch 5 + 6 and then i play the test tone. Turn the gain up until the meter reads 49v.

JimN
12-05-2011, 11:23 AM
Let's see how i do...

First, im not using the headunit. The headunit feeds into a PPI EQ with 8v preout.
Ch 1 + 2 are hooked up from the syn6 to the front rca of the EQ
The Syn6 is set to feed the signal from Ch 1 + 2 to Ch 3 + 4 to remove the need for more RCA.
Ch 5 + 6 are wired at 4 ohm bridged (600x1) and hooked upto the Rear RCA of the EQ. This powers the Pro485 pod.

I then grab a 1000hz sine way test tone from Realm of Excursion. Since the source of music is always from the iPod i used that to tune with. The ipod hooks up to the headunit, which then hooks up to the "CD" aux of the EQ. This allows me to use the remote by the throttle to control vol, while using the iPod to control tracks (personal preference).

I took the equation "sqrt(Wattsrms * ohm)" to get voltage. In this case it was sqrt(600 * 4) = ~49v.

With the DMM hook up to the positive and negative on ch 5 + 6 and then i play the test tone. Turn the gain up until the meter reads 49v.

That's OK if you only play 1KHz, but to get the levels right, you need to check for distortion at a wide range of frequencies. Equipment manufacturers get their best distortion specs by using 1K and nothing else, causing many other device failures and the trade organizations need to re-adopt the old FTC specs.

Also, what's the input sensitivity for the piece(s) AFTER the PPI Equalizer? Are they made for 8V of output? I sure hope so.

.wav or MP3? It makes a difference and I doubt the head unit converts the file to PCM (although it would be great if it did).

Did you turn the amplifier input sensitivity controls down when you set the level for the head unit? You need to do that, preferably before your ears have been neaten to death all day long. Hearing is more sensitive after sleeping, then it naturally compresses throughout the day. Also, distortion is hard enough to hear normally but after a long noisy day, it's even harder. Much better to see a clean signal than to listen for it.

Measuring for a voltage to determine the correct setting isn't the right way- clean signal needs to be seen or heard. You can't just hit the number and decide it's correct.

agarabaghi
12-05-2011, 11:34 AM
That's OK if you only play 1KHz, but to get the levels right, you need to check for distortion at a wide range of frequencies. Equipment manufacturers get their best distortion specs by using 1K and nothing else, causing many other device failures and the trade organizations need to re-adopt the old FTC specs.

Also, what's the input sensitivity for the piece(s) AFTER the PPI Equalizer? Are they made for 8V of output? I sure hope so.

.wav or MP3? It makes a difference and I doubt the head unit converts the file to PCM (although it would be great if it did).

Did you turn the amplifier input sensitivity controls down when you set the level for the head unit? You need to do that, preferably before your ears have been neaten to death all day long. Hearing is more sensitive after sleeping, then it naturally compresses throughout the day. Also, distortion is hard enough to hear normally but after a long noisy day, it's even harder. Much better to see a clean signal than to listen for it.

Measuring for a voltage to determine the correct setting isn't the right way- clean signal needs to be seen or heard. You can't just hit the number and decide it's correct.

Wetsound Syn6 is 4v
Audiopipe APSM1300 5v
Audiopipe APSM1300 5v
PPI EQ - Max 8v, lo / mid / high setting for the voltage, it's set to mid.
From the manual:
"1.CD Gain Selector
The CD Gain Selector will increase or decrease the input sensitivity of the CD input. W e
suggest if your source unit's pre-amp voltage is 4V or greater, se tthe sensitivity switch to
HI. If your source unit's pre-amp voltage is 2V-4V, set the sensitivity switch to MID. If your
source unit's pre-amp voltage is less than 2V, set the sensitivity switch to LOW."

Its a .wav file, with no db increase, suppose to be flat for tuning.

I started by setting the cross overs on the amp (~200 for the tower) and setting the EQ knobs to 0 for everything. I turned the headunit up about 3/4 of the way, and the ipod is plugged in and vol all the way up. I then played the test tone, and adjust the gain according to the meter.

I usually tune door speakers and sub by ear, but i would have the worse headache if i tried to turn the tower speakers by ear lol... I do understand that music fluctuates, but I was under the impression that 1000hz is usually a good point for tuning highs (tower speaker).

JimN
12-05-2011, 12:20 PM
Wetsound Syn6 is 4v
Audiopipe APSM1300 5v
Audiopipe APSM1300 5v
PPI EQ - Max 8v, lo / mid / high setting for the voltage, it's set to mid.
From the manual:
"1.CD Gain Selector
The CD Gain Selector will increase or decrease the input sensitivity of the CD input. W e
suggest if your source unit's pre-amp voltage is 4V or greater, se tthe sensitivity switch to
HI. If your source unit's pre-amp voltage is 2V-4V, set the sensitivity switch to MID. If your
source unit's pre-amp voltage is less than 2V, set the sensitivity switch to LOW."

Its a .wav file, with no db increase, suppose to be flat for tuning.

I started by setting the cross overs on the amp (~200 for the tower) and setting the EQ knobs to 0 for everything. I turned the headunit up about 3/4 of the way, and the ipod is plugged in and vol all the way up. I then played the test tone, and adjust the gain according to the meter.

I usually tune door speakers and sub by ear, but i would have the worse headache if i tried to turn the tower speakers by ear lol... I do understand that music fluctuates, but I was under the impression that 1000hz is usually a good point for tuning highs (tower speaker).

The first thing I would do is make sure the distortion is as low as possible at all frequencies before determining the maximum setting for each amplifier channel. This is the highest setting for a single frequency, not full-range music and only serves to find the highest setting for that. Once you know the max level for a clean tone, you need to mark the setting on the amp before you can set the channel balance, but you still need to set the controls below that point if you want the signal to be undistorted. It's bedt to do this with the engine running at 2K RPM or higher because the voltages will be higher than at idle or with the engine off. Only after this is done, can you make sure to use pink noise to set the channel balance, not a single frequency tone. Channel and bandpass balance can't be set with a single tone anyway and since smooth-sounding response is a requirement, a single tone is useless at the crossover frequencies because it's rare that a two-way speaker uses that frequency as its crossover point (which isn't really a point- it's the place where the driver's response is -3dB from it's average broadband output). The crossover point(s) should be set after analyzing the ambient noise floor (including the sound of the engine, which has to be overcome by the system) in order to hear anything in the same frequency range as the noise. Sitting still, it can sound like crap but when the boat is under way, it works. In some cases, you need to leave a gap between the low pass and high pass to keep from having a big hump in the range where the noise floor is highest- the frequencies to both sides of the gap will still sound pretty normal after fine tuning but, unless the system is in an enclosed space, outside noise will always keep it from sounding its best without using excessive SPL.

If you have a 95dB noise floor and want any dynamics at all (20dB is a lot for the way music is recorder now, with 0dB-6dB being about average for iTunes and other shared music), you'll be hitting unsafe SPL as soon as you turn the system on, if you go by the OSHA noise exposure ratings. IIRC, it's allowable for a worker to be exposed to 95dB for one hour in an 8 hour work day.

Here's a site with some good info-
http://www.the12volt.com/

If you plan to make changes to the system and want to be sure your system is giving you everything you want, I would think about buying a calibrated mic ($39 at Parts Express and it comes with a response curve for that mic so corrections can be made in REW) and learning to use Room EQ Wizard (REW). It's a great tool and does a lot more than the Audio Control Real Time Analyzer, which was the standard piece of equipment for determining the response in IASCA sound-off competitions.

agarabaghi
12-05-2011, 01:29 PM
Ill keep all this in mind.

Ive been on 12v using there calculators and whatnot. Great site.

I dont think ill be following the OSHA noise exposure guidelines as im running ~3000watts, and im sure just the 485 does more than 95db haha...

Looks like i got some tuning planned ahead of me.

I think ive run into another issue lol...
I was tightening my isolator bolts this am, and the stud broke off which goes to the true ignition source. So I have a feeling my aux battery is not charging, because i notice the subs were cutting in and out. So ive either blown the subs, or there not enough voltage to properly power the amps haha... AHHHHH im going crazy.

Not to mention i just rode at lunch and fell on every single trick. AWESOME!

agarabaghi
12-06-2011, 07:40 AM
Well I hooked up my spare isolator and now the batteries are charged and the amps aren't clipping. The replacement speaker comes tomorrow so I'll get the tower tuned the ! Thanks for the help guys