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bcd
10-23-2011, 10:01 AM
I bought my X2 with no sub or tower speakers, thinking I could do it better and cheaper myself. So far, I've got a Rockford Fosgate 12" P3 4 ohm DVC sub that I'm going to run at 2 ohms bridged, powered by a RF Prime 1000W RMS @ 2 ohm). I'm building the box now.

I'm planning on 2 tower speakers, thinking about Wetsounds rev10's. Any comments? Also, I'm trying to figure out how to best power the in boat and tower speakers. From what I've found, if I try going with a 5 or 6 channel amp, I'm only going to get around 50W to each in boat speaker. Shouldn't I shoot for 150W? I'm thinking I'm going to have to go with 2 different amps for the in boat and tower speakers. Any recommendations? I'd like to keep the budget under 2K for the amps and tower speakers.

EarmarkMarine
10-23-2011, 10:16 AM
Right now there is really no better tower speaker in a stand-alone pair than the Wetsounds REV10s. So we don't have to give that any attention.
There isn't a 5 or 6 multi-channel amplifier available that will deliver enough power for the REV10s plus the in-boats and sub. Its going to require two chassis. A Wetsounds SYN4 bridged into two channels or a JL Audio MHD or HD750/1 would do the job on the tower about as good as its going to get.
Yes, the in-boat JL Audio 7.7-inch speakers will handle up to 150 watts each but you are not going to find a 5 or 6 channel amplifier that will deliver 150 watts per channel into a 4-ohm load. Assuming that you have four (two pair) in-boat 7.7s then the Wetsounds Syn6 or JL Audio MHD or HD900/5 would do a great job on everything in the boat (sub and satellites).

David
Earmark Marine

Thrall
10-23-2011, 12:37 PM
What David has reccomended would be the perfect setup, but if you're on a budget, as I was, I have another suggestion.
First, there's room for 3 amps and assuming you want to use your current sub amp for the sub, then, get a JL M6600 for the in-boat speakers ($350 or so) and a Boston Accoustic GT-28 ($400 discontinued now) for the Tower speakers assuming you have speakers that need 150-200W.
On the 6channel for the cockpit spkrs, bridge 2 ch each to the rear spkrs and single channel to the front. The Boston will be plenty to drive 4 MC JL towers or 2 Rev10's. 2 ch to the rear speakers will get you close to the capacity of those speakers and they sound great. 75W/ch to the fronts is adequate, IMO, small area anyway.
I'me sure there are other options, but I have limited experience and this is the setup I ended up with when I built mine and it works very well.
Compared to my buddies X15 with 3 smaller subs, and teh 4 cockpit and 4 tower speakers, all under powered, 50-75W to each, my setup is much louder. Only other suggestion is to install line drivers on the inputs if you have to split the input signal more than once from the head unit. I haven't, but it is on the to do list and I think it osunds great right now, but I'm sure my signal voltage is lacking having some connections split 3x AFTER going through a pass through connection for the sub.
Make sure to budget for proper power, batteries and distribution, good wire and distribution blocks.

agarabaghi
10-24-2011, 08:08 AM
Check out amazon and part express for distribution blocks and wire. I picked up 25ft of red and black 4awg for about $18 each. Also distribution blocks for $5 can't beat it.

Your going to want to hook up 2 batteries, and with that you will need an isolator. I strongly suggest the battery doctor isolator as it is a simple install. Im not sure you amp draw but i would think the 150amp battery doctor would be plenty. I overloaded the 100amp version with my system (~2600rms).

bcd
12-30-2011, 01:57 PM
I decided I better get moving on purchasing my components so they're ready to go when I get the boat out of storage. I keep my boat in the garage and do a good job letting it air out, and I've never had an issue using non-marine amps before. I'm looking at an Infinity Kappa Four ($254, 125W RMS X 4 @ 4ohm) and a Rockford Fosgate P1000X4D ($393, 150W RMS X 4 @ 4ohm). I've never had any experience with Infinity, but I think I've heard good things. Any thoughts on which one I should go with? I'm leaning towards the Infinity (based on price).

I'm not sure what to do to power the rev 10 tower speakers. Is it better to go with a 2 channel amp, or a single amp bridged, or a 2 channel amp bridged? For example, I found a R-F T600-2 that is 200W RMS X 2 @ 4 ohms, or 600W RMS X 1 @ 4ohm (2ohm stable in bridged mode), which I assume means you can bridge it at 2 ohm.

What are the downsides with bridging?

swatguy
12-30-2011, 04:19 PM
Those REV 10's need 400 Rms each to get what they offer from them. I own the 8's and they are money with the Syn 4 bridged pushing them at 400.

You are going to need a 2 amp solution for sure. I will throw Arc Audio into the mix as well. You are going to get a top of the line speaker in the 10's. Don't cheap out on an amp to save some cash.... it will only hurt the performance. Those huge Rev 10's will magnify any sort of distortion or noise related to cheap stuff. Spend the coin for a decent amp....if you don't have the coin I would say drop down to a lower model hl

Jeff d
01-01-2012, 03:44 PM
The new Polk Audio digital class D amps are pretty promising and marine certified. They're also CEA-2006 compliant so you can be confident that they will output the rated wattage.

There's a 2x125 @ 4 ohms/ 2x200 @2 ohms:
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_39893_Polk-Audio-PA-D2000.2-PAD2000.2.html

A 4x125 @ 4 ohms/ 4x200 @2 ohms:
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_39894_Polk-Audio-PA-D4000.4-PAD4000.4.html

There's a monoblock 500 @ 4 /800 @ 2 /1200 @ 1:
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_39886_Polk-Audio-PA-D1000.1-PAD1000.1.html

And the one I have my eye on, the 5 ch (100x4 @ 4 ohms + 500x1 @ 1 ohm):
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_39895_Polk-Audio-PA-D5000.5-PAD5000.5.html

Jeff d
01-01-2012, 03:54 PM
What are the downsides with bridging?

Bridging combines the left and right stereo channels into a mono channel but doesn't necessarily imply that you're dropping the impedance of the load. So, you could "bridge" the left and right channels of a multi channel amp to a single 8 ohm mono load. This would be equivalent from the amp's perspective to a 4 ohm stereo load.

I've been out of the mobile audio game for too long but back in the class A/B days the disadvantage was that you'd generally run hotter and less efficient as you get closer to the minimum rated impedence. So, you'd get less runtime on the battery and you'd be more likely to go into protection mode on a hot day with the amp stuck in a closed compartment. You'd also generally get power that's less "clean" depending on the quality of the amp.

With a class D they reportedly run cool to the touch under normal conditions. So, I'm not exactly sure how the above plays out especially when you throw digital class D amps into the mix.

EarmarkMarine
01-01-2012, 06:31 PM
I have no idea why they refer to Class D as a 'digital' amplifer because a Class D switching amplifier is absolutely analog all the way.
For a single pair of Wetsounds REV10s it would be advisable to run a Wetsounds Syn4 bridged into two channels for 400 watts per speaker.
Look, the REV10s being larger are more efficient with more output than the REV8 so you could just as easily run them with 200 watts per speaker like the REV8...but you are not fully taking advantage of the REV10 until you go with the Syn4. Don't shortcut a fanatastic speaker with tons of potential.

David
Earmark Marine

Jeff d
01-01-2012, 07:47 PM
I have no idea why they refer to Class D as a 'digital' amplifer because a Class D switching amplifier is absolutely analog all the way.

I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on that but Polk's site calls them "High performance Digital Car Amplifier[s]" too.

JimN
01-01-2012, 07:55 PM
I have no idea why they refer to Class D as a 'digital' amplifer because a Class D switching amplifier is absolutely analog all the way.

David
Earmark Marine

If the marketing departments couldn't lie to us, well, I don't think I want to live in that world!:D

Jeff d
01-01-2012, 08:20 PM
I have no idea why they refer to Class D as a 'digital' amplifer because a Class D switching amplifier is absolutely analog all the way.

What attribute of the specs tipped you off that the Polk "Digital" Class D amps can't be digital? What would the difference be relative to an Alpine PDX Class D which is also marketed as "Digital"?

Thanks,
Jeff

JimN
01-01-2012, 09:12 PM
What attribute of the specs tipped you off that the Polk "Digital" Class D amps can't be digital? What would the difference be relative to an Alpine PDX Class D which is also marketed as "Digital"?

Thanks,
Jeff

Very few audio amplifiers are truly digital and the easiest way to tell is that they're incredibly light. A good example is bass guitar amplifiers- a 200W Gallien Krueger, Aguilar or other brand weighs about 2-3 lb and they actually put out a lot of power. The amps we're dealing with in cars & boats have larger heat sinks but a switching power supply- it turns on when the signal requires it and off/down when it's not needed. These are sometimes called 'Pulse Power Supply' or PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) power supplies.

Ever seen "Digital Speakers"? No, you haven't- even if they were called that by the manufacturer.

Jeff d
01-01-2012, 09:58 PM
Very few audio amplifiers are truly digital...

Well, I understand that no automotive style amp could be "truly digital" unless there was some sort of digital interface between the receiver and the amp and the data was passed through it and passed to a DAC on the amp itself. Something like a TOSLINK or coax digital cable as you'd find in home theater audio. Eventually it all has to become analog once again unless we grow robot ears (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOTFwpA7n1M&feature=related). But apparently there are Class D amps that are controlled via digital circuits and those that are not. In cases where the amp was controlled via "digital circuits" I'd imagine it's more of a hybrid digital since they all (Even JL and Alpine) have the typical analog stereo RCA inputs.

So, what aspect of the amp makes it ok to call this amp "Digital":
http://www.earmarkcaraudio.com/Xcart/product.php?productid=16631&cat=301&page=1

But not this one:
http://www.polkaudio.com/caraudio/pa/index.php#pad4000_4

I mean it's got "Toroidal transformers" and everything! I don't know what that is but I believe that when angered the amp can turn into a real robot.

Seriously though is it the "High-speed MOSFET switching power supply" that indicates it's not "truly digital"?

Thanks,
Jeff

EarmarkMarine
01-02-2012, 12:13 AM
In the case of the Earmark information that is just the girl who does the entries and is using the marketing material directly off the manufacturer site.
Amplifiers could possibly use digital management circuitry in some stages but there is absolutely no digital circuitry in the signal path of either of those amplifiers.
A CD and CD player is digital.

David

mastercraft06x2
01-02-2012, 01:48 AM
You should really go with all JL audio/amps/ MC can's with JL speakers (plus will match the speakers in your mastercraft right now) . the WET sounds pro 80's look really freaking bad on a mastercraft. look way to big. but if your going wet sounds pro 60's dont look so bad either. best of luck

JimN
01-02-2012, 06:07 AM
Well, I understand that no automotive style amp could be "truly digital" unless there was some sort of digital interface between the receiver and the amp and the data was passed through it and passed to a DAC on the amp itself. Something like a TOSLINK or coax digital cable as you'd find in home theater audio. Eventually it all has to become analog once again unless we grow robot ears (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOTFwpA7n1M&feature=related). But apparently there are Class D amps that are controlled via digital circuits and those that are not. In cases where the amp was controlled via "digital circuits" I'd imagine it's more of a hybrid digital since they all (Even JL and Alpine) have the typical analog stereo RCA inputs.

So, what aspect of the amp makes it ok to call this amp "Digital":
http://www.earmarkcaraudio.com/Xcart/product.php?productid=16631&cat=301&page=1

But not this one:
http://www.polkaudio.com/caraudio/pa/index.php#pad4000_4

I mean it's got "Toroidal transformers" and everything! I don't know what that is but I believe that when angered the amp can turn into a real robot.

Seriously though is it the "High-speed MOSFET switching power supply" that indicates it's not "truly digital"?

Thanks,
Jeff

Here ya go-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class-D_amplifier

Switching power supplies are just more efficient. The wall-wart power supplies that come with network routers, modems, computers, etc are switching supplies.

Re: your comment about the RCA jacks and amps not having digital coax or Tos-Link inputs- if they went to optical connections in the car audio signal path, nobody would ever complain about a ground loop.

bcd
01-08-2012, 12:06 PM
I have no idea why they refer to Class D as a 'digital' amplifer because a Class D switching amplifier is absolutely analog all the way.
For a single pair of Wetsounds REV10s it would be advisable to run a Wetsounds Syn4 bridged into two channels for 400 watts per speaker.
Look, the REV10s being larger are more efficient with more output than the REV8 so you could just as easily run them with 200 watts per speaker like the REV8...but you are not fully taking advantage of the REV10 until you go with the Syn4. Don't shortcut a fanatastic speaker with tons of potential.

David
Earmark Marine
When you say that the "you are not fully taking advantage of the REV10 until you go with the Syn4," are you saying that because watt power to the speaker, or I need the Syn4 for sound quality?

I'm considering going with 2 RF P1000X4D amps. One for the boat speakers and the other bridged for the 2 REV10's. That would give me 500W rms x 2 @ 4 ohms for the REV10's.

I can get the RF P1000X4D for $383 vs $600 for the Syn4. That's about a $500 difference for 2 amps. I understand that I shouldn't buy high end speakers and then power them with a crappy amp, but aren't RF's a good amp? Would I notice a difference in sound quality between the two? I'm just wondering if the extra money for the Syn4 is really justified. Isn't some of it for the marine rating that I don't think I need?

I'll admit, I don't really know what I'm doing, so I'm looking for advice from those that do. I understand the specs and numbers, but don't know enough about individual brand performance to differentiate the price differences.

EarmarkMarine
01-09-2012, 11:18 AM
bcd,
I am not familiar with Rockford Fosgate amplifiers so I cannot comment or compare.

I can tell you this about specs. CEA-2006 standards stipulate that the power is rated at 1000 Hz with a 14.4 volt supply. And that is a mile width of latitude. An unregulated amplifier can have a 25 percent power reduction at a 12.5 volt supply and can have 15 percent less power at 50 Hz than 1000 Hz. So I temper specs with my experience. I definitely don't live and die by specs alone although you can trust them on the more conservative brands.

The Wetsounds REV10's continuous thermal power handling is less than 400 watts. They play it a little cautious on that one for those who don't know how to take care of their equipment. We run them with 375 per side on display that is strictly regulated power at all typical impedances and at a supply voltage down to 11 volts. So we know we are getting a legit 375 watts per speaker. And that is closing in on the maximum before the speaker begins to show signs of dynamic compression. And dynamic compression like amplifier compression/clipping is dangerous. Now, the extra peak or dynamic power isn't going to even tickle the thermal capabilities of this speaker. Those extra reserves are what give any speaker more contrast which you interpret as clarity and attack. But its a fine line between the benefits of the extra dynamic headroom and running your amplifier into harmful compression/clipping. A 25 percent increase in continuous power equates to less than a 1 dB increase which is just below the threshold of what you can detect. So the benefits of running the extra power really isn't about an increase in the perceived average volume. Its more about better sound quality when used with a little discipline.
As for price...many dealers are going to offer some form of zone discount for a speaker and amplifier tower package. So the price differential is not as great as what you stated.
The Wetsounds Syn4 is marinized with stainless steel terminal blocks and hardware, conformally coated and fan cooled for use in a ski locker in July with temperatures often exceeding 140 degrees. I can see some benefits.
My advice is to find a local, very experienced, authorized Wetsounds dealer who can provide you with the kind of technical and installation support that will make a significant difference in the way your system performs. A good dealer can take half the power and create a much better sounding system than you can. And I don't see you getting any real in-depth technical advice from most on-line sources, particularly when it comes to the marine venue. If you call Wetsounds directly they will find a local dealer for you.

David
Earmark Marine

snork
01-09-2012, 01:54 PM
+ 1 on the Wetsound Rev10's
I was at Earmark this last Friday and was very impressed
The Rev10 are freakishly huge but so was the sound
Anyone want a pair of 2007 MC JL towerspeakers w/ lights?