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View Full Version : Integrated Bow sac install without drilling-205


_fng_
10-10-2011, 09:05 AM
Like a lot of people with DD boats, I'm looking at ways to get my boat ('97 205) weighted without excessive sacs everywhere. The integrated bow sac looks like a good solution to hidden ballast even if the space limits full weight (read estimated 400 lbs?). The link below looks like an easy install option but I wanted to see what others thought. I could probably link the vent line with bilge vent with a check-valve or I could just self vent the sac when filling. I'm trying to follow the KISS principle with this project.
http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=31628

In addition to bow sac, I'm considering lead weight (520# pop bags) for under rear seat and in-floor cooler and possibly upfront as well.

Am I trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? Should I just stick to sacs on the floor?

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!
Nick

CantRepeat
10-10-2011, 09:19 AM
Any shut off valve below the water line should be brass. I have read that it is a coast guard regulation as well.

I'm gonna be a bit direct with this one. Pulling water off the rawr water line, cooling system, is just a bad, bad idea. Why would anyone think that compromising the cooling system would be a good idea, hell even an idea in the first place.

I would strongly suggest you look at other ideas. I know you said you don't want to drill, but it's not that scary of thing to do.

Follow the instructions at Wakemakers (http://media.wakemakers.com/2011/03/how-to-drill-fiberglass-and-install-thru-hull-fittings/) and you'll be fine.

tommcat
10-10-2011, 12:36 PM
i have a rear seat sac that goes in back. it fits with the seat down but has a little more capacity with the rear seat up in the sundeck position. i will be installing a 750 pound sac on the left side of the engine box over the winter to give me a surf wake. up front i thought about the integrated bow sac but it ends up so far forward that i thought it limited capacity quite a bit. so instead i put 2 side sacs up front under the bow cushions and let them sit as far to the rear as possible to get as much water in them as possible.
with 4 or 5 people in the boat there is still plenty of room and it is definitely sitting pretty low in the water. it throws a beautiful wakeboarding wake, wont know until next year what kind of surf wake i'll have.

_fng_
10-10-2011, 01:57 PM
Thanks for the replies.

CR-
I'm no engineer but I would imagine that running a 1" hose from a "T"d off section of the raw water pump for a few minutes wouldn't change the engine temperature dramatically. If I had the tools for the thru-hull installation I'd feel a little more compelled but I don't.

TC-
Do they side sacs get pretty full under the seats? I agree the wake is great (at least for my needs) but just don't want the hassle of throwing pumps over the edge or taking up space if possible. I guess the next step is finding fat friends.

tommcat
10-10-2011, 02:25 PM
Thanks for the replies.

CR-
I'm no engineer but I would imagine that running a 1" hose from a "T"d off section of the raw water pump for a few minutes wouldn't change the engine temperature dramatically. If I had the tools for the thru-hull installation I'd feel a little more compelled but I don't.

TC-
Do they side sacs get pretty full under the seats? I agree the wake is great (at least for my needs) but just don't want the hassle of throwing pumps over the edge or taking up space if possible. I guess the next step is finding fat friends.They fill up just about all the way. if people are sitting up front the bags will pick them up.
i used 2 jabsco ballast puppy pumps and put to intakes through the hull, one for each pump. i added 2 vents through the hull for overflow.
i know drilling holes in your boat sounds scary but it's well worth it and much better than hanging pumps and hoses off the side. i can just add or remove water from the front or rear to shape the wake or compensate for people.

CantRepeat
10-10-2011, 02:51 PM
Thanks for the replies.

CR-
I'm no engineer but I would imagine that running a 1" hose from a "T"d off section of the raw water pump for a few minutes wouldn't change the engine temperature dramatically. If I had the tools for the thru-hull installation I'd feel a little more compelled but I don't.




I'm not either which is why I would not risk it.

For the through hulls all you need is a cheap $4 hole saw and any drill, some masking tape, the fittings.

tommcat
10-10-2011, 02:59 PM
I'm not either which is why I would not risk it.

For the through hulls all you need is a cheap $4 hole saw and any drill, some masking tape, the fittings.and the nerve to put a big hole saw to the bottom of your boat;)

CantRepeat
10-10-2011, 03:05 PM
Pretty simple really. :rolleyes:

tommcat
10-10-2011, 03:39 PM
Pretty simple really. :rolleyes:definitely simple. i just remeber laying under the boat for awhile checking and double checking everything before i went at it.
use plenty of 3m sealant and you'll be fine.

sp00ky
10-10-2011, 04:23 PM
Pretty simple really. :rolleyes:

Can you show pictures of how you connected the to your ballast bags?

tommcat
10-10-2011, 04:59 PM
Can you show pictures of how you connected the to your ballast bags?

i dont have pics but i used the quick connects from BFI

CantRepeat
10-10-2011, 05:00 PM
Can you show pictures of how you connected the to your ballast bags?

Sure, if it's not raining tomorrow!! :mad:

I meant to do the through hull write up in my ballast thread but got side tracked with summer. :D I'll try to get it completed before the weekend.

_fng_
10-10-2011, 10:10 PM
and the nerve to put a big hole saw to the bottom of your boat;)

this is my hang-up especially because I'm not too mechanically inclined. After reviewing a lot of online tutorials it appears to be straightforward (always seems easy when someone else writes it up). I'll probably recruit some of my gearhead friends to help ease my mind when I take on the process.

tommcat
10-10-2011, 10:30 PM
this is my hang-up especially because I'm not too mechanically inclined.

dont think mechanical, think woodshop;)

_fng_
10-11-2011, 10:14 PM
i have a rear seat sac that goes in back. it fits with the seat down but has a little more capacity with the rear seat up in the sundeck position. i will be installing a 750 pound sac on the left side of the engine box over the winter to give me a surf wake. up front i thought about the integrated bow sac but it ends up so far forward that i thought it limited capacity quite a bit. so instead i put 2 side sacs up front under the bow cushions and let them sit as far to the rear as possible to get as much water in them as possible.
with 4 or 5 people in the boat there is still plenty of room and it is definitely sitting pretty low in the water. it throws a beautiful wakeboarding wake, wont know until next year what kind of surf wake i'll have.

What route did you take for vent line for the rear sac?

tommcat
10-12-2011, 08:57 AM
What route did you take for vent line for the rear sac?

drilled a hole through the right side and put a vent fitting in that matched the factory bilge fitting. i also drill another one right next to the bilge fitting in the front for the bow sacs.

tommcat
10-12-2011, 08:59 AM
my bags are all out right now since i'm getting ready to tear the interior out and replace the carpet and vinyl, otherwise i'd snap some pics of the system for you. i will try to take some tonight of the outside though so you can see where the vent fitting went.

gatorguy
10-12-2011, 10:57 AM
i have a rear seat sac that goes in back. it fits with the seat down but has a little more capacity with the rear seat up in the sundeck position. i will be installing a 750 pound sac on the left side of the engine box over the winter to give me a surf wake. up front i thought about the integrated bow sac but it ends up so far forward that i thought it limited capacity quite a bit. so instead i put 2 side sacs up front under the bow cushions and let them sit as far to the rear as possible to get as much water in them as possible.
with 4 or 5 people in the boat there is still plenty of room and it is definitely sitting pretty low in the water. it throws a beautiful wakeboarding wake, wont know until next year what kind of surf wake i'll have.

So if I understand correctly the rear bag is plumbed in, just sitting on the floor in the back. Is it a 750, or something smaller, because my 750 will bearly fit when the seat is up? I'm also guessing that the side bag will be stuffed in the side storage when not in use?

I run 2 750 bags in mine with the tsunami pump that I get in and out every time I use them. It's a pain, so we only switch them around once a day. I put one on the port side and one in the rear when surfing, and switch the rear sack to the starboard side to wakeboard. It would be nice to plumb them with enough slack so I could stuff the port bag into the side locker when not in use, and then have the rear bag stored in the starboard side locker and be able to swing it from the side to the rear.

Do you think the hoses are durable and flexable to accommadate all that moving?

My boat is a 97 205, so no center ski locker. I have thought about a bow sack under the front seats, but I need that room for all the jackets/helmets etc... (5 kids come with a lot of stuff). All this being said I ski 95% of the time, and keep the rear seat and extra people out of the boat. And I think the surf wake is pretty good how I have it already. I just want to make it easier to switch from one thing to another because my oldest thinks that wakeboarding is the only thing to do behind a boat, and my wife will only surf, and I mostly ski. It currently takes about 15-20min to go from everything put in the storage compartment, to all ballast full and ready to surf.

Any ideas to make it easier?

_fng_
10-12-2011, 11:53 AM
So if I understand correctly the rear bag is plumbed in, just sitting on the floor in the back. Is it a 750, or something smaller, because my 750 will bearly fit when the seat is up? I'm also guessing that the side bag will be stuffed in the side storage when not in use?

I run 2 750 bags in mine with the tsunami pump that I get in and out every time I use them. It's a pain, so we only switch them around once a day. I put one on the port side and one in the rear when surfing, and switch the rear sack to the starboard side to wakeboard. It would be nice to plumb them with enough slack so I could stuff the port bag into the side locker when not in use, and then have the rear bag stored in the starboard side locker and be able to swing it from the side to the rear.

Do you think the hoses are durable and flexable to accommadate all that moving?

My boat is a 97 205, so no center ski locker. I have thought about a bow sack under the front seats, but I need that room for all the jackets/helmets etc... (5 kids come with a lot of stuff). All this being said I ski 95% of the time, and keep the rear seat and extra people out of the boat. And I think the surf wake is pretty good how I have it already. I just want to make it easier to switch from one thing to another because my oldest thinks that wakeboarding is the only thing to do behind a boat, and my wife will only surf, and I mostly ski. It currently takes about 15-20min to go from everything put in the storage compartment, to all ballast full and ready to surf.

Any ideas to make it easier?

I would imagine that reinforced hose could withstand moving several times without issue (unlike the hose that came with tsunami pump which is crap).

Next time you wakeboard try putting one 750 in the rear when the seat in sunpad position and the other 750 in the bow walkway. I've been playing with location and I like the weight up front more (seems to pop you up more rather than out) than both alongside the engine compartment.

tommcat
10-12-2011, 01:26 PM
So if I understand correctly the rear bag is plumbed in, just sitting on the floor in the back. Is it a 750, or something smaller, because my 750 will bearly fit when the seat is up? I'm also guessing that the side bag will be stuffed in the side storage when not in use?

I run 2 750 bags in mine with the tsunami pump that I get in and out every time I use them. It's a pain, so we only switch them around once a day. I put one on the port side and one in the rear when surfing, and switch the rear sack to the starboard side to wakeboard. It would be nice to plumb them with enough slack so I could stuff the port bag into the side locker when not in use, and then have the rear bag stored in the starboard side locker and be able to swing it from the side to the rear.

Do you think the hoses are durable and flexable to accommadate all that moving?

My boat is a 97 205, so no center ski locker. I have thought about a bow sack under the front seats, but I need that room for all the jackets/helmets etc... (5 kids come with a lot of stuff). All this being said I ski 95% of the time, and keep the rear seat and extra people out of the boat. And I think the surf wake is pretty good how I have it already. I just want to make it easier to switch from one thing to another because my oldest thinks that wakeboarding is the only thing to do behind a boat, and my wife will only surf, and I mostly ski. It currently takes about 15-20min to go from everything put in the storage compartment, to all ballast full and ready to surf.

Any ideas to make it easier?

gator, i have rear seat sac, W705, under the rear seat. it's 650 pounds full. it fills about 3/4 with the seat down and if i need to fill it all the way the seat goes upp into the sundeck position. it is absolutely not in my way at any point in time and i never move it.
mine is also a 97, so no center locker for me either. just that stupid cooler which is useless.

i definitely lose my storage under the bow seats but i was willing to pay that price. i dont have kids so i dont have to carry a ton of stuff on board.

as far as the side sac i'm putting ini, yes i do plan on just stuffing it in the side storage when not in use. i am also going to put a Y-valve inline so i can fill just the rear sac, side sac or both if i want and just use one pump and switch.

i would definitely suggest using reversible pumps mounted permanently, it is so much easier than throwing pumps and hose over the side every time you want a change. i just hit the switch while waiting for people to load or put their board on and i can make adjustments while under way.

Evan Jones
10-12-2011, 03:23 PM
I would avoid the lead weight idea if possible. If your boat if full of water-ballast sacs and you sink it, the water equals out and it won't go any lower than the water level. If it has a bunch of lead weight, it will head right to the bottom.

_fng_
10-12-2011, 07:15 PM
I would avoid the lead weight idea if possible. If your boat if full of water-ballast sacs and you sink it, the water equals out and it won't go any lower than the water level. If it has a bunch of lead weight, it will head right to the bottom.

The river, although it's called a lake, I go on is pretty calm and have never had issues with water over the bow even with 1500# in sacs and 6 people. I completely understand the rationale holding on lead but think that with cautious application it can help add hidden weight without much risk. My biggest concern about adding a lot of lead weight is trailering it with the weight and the few occasions I bust out the ski.

CantRepeat
10-12-2011, 08:32 PM
The river, although it's called a lake, I go on is pretty calm and have never had issues with water over the bow even with 1500# in sacs and 6 people. I completely understand the rationale holding on lead but think that with cautious application it can help add hidden weight without much risk. My biggest concern about adding a lot of lead weight is trailering it with the weight and the few occasions I bust out the ski.

Think again, about lead weight.

Your boat on lead. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Bs6GMQri5k)

_fng_
10-13-2011, 09:29 AM
I've seen that before and while it give a good demonstration of what can happen I don't think it's an apples to apples comparison when applied to boating. I think my general unconcern for adding solid weight is that I've never had water come over the bow (or any other part of the boat) even with surfing setup and the rub-rail in the water.

Do others take on water often? You'd have to work to take on water on the relatively quiet water we ride.

Thanks for all the help. Winter project is to install a bow sac and rear sac with a Y valve for adding another sac to rear when surfing. I'm looking at wakemakers for their setup and wondered if there is a reason not to go with Johnson vs Jabsco pump given its faster (780gph vs 640).
http://www.wakemakers.com/wakeboard-ballast-packages/wakeboard-ballast-systems

CantRepeat
10-13-2011, 10:46 AM
When I ask Jason at wakemakers he said it was either or and there really wasn't that much of a performance difference in the pumps. I just kept with Jabscos.


The deal with the lead is just that, lead. It doesn't matter how many times you do or do not take on enough water to swap the boat. What matters is how the lead WILL affect the buoyancy if it does happen. That's all.

tommcat
10-13-2011, 02:31 PM
I've seen that before and while it give a good demonstration of what can happen I don't think it's an apples to apples comparison when applied to boating. I think my general unconcern for adding solid weight is that I've never had water come over the bow (or any other part of the boat) even with surfing setup and the rub-rail in the water.

Do others take on water often? You'd have to work to take on water on the relatively quiet water we ride.

Thanks for all the help. Winter project is to install a bow sac and rear sac with a Y valve for adding another sac to rear when surfing. I'm looking at wakemakers for their setup and wondered if there is a reason not to go with Johnson vs Jabsco pump given its faster (780gph vs 640).
http://www.wakemakers.com/wakeboard-ballast-packages/wakeboard-ballast-systemsI am swapping my jabsco pumps out in favor of the johnson pumps. a little more speed cant hurt

gatorguy
10-14-2011, 10:25 AM
I think when I put my system in I will use the Johnson pumps. They are faster, and they are cheaper, and they have been making pumps longer than Jabsco. But mostly they are faster and I hate waiting, half the reason I want an integrated system in the first place was to make it all faster.

CantRepeat
10-14-2011, 11:49 AM
I think when I put my system in I will use the Johnson pumps. They are faster, and they are cheaper, and they have been making pumps longer than Jabsco. But mostly they are faster and I hate waiting, half the reason I want an integrated system in the first place was to make it all faster.

Nothing wrong with that!! ;) I hated filling sacs with the Tsunami pump.

gatorguy
10-15-2011, 06:05 PM
:DIf I can't make my boat faster, at least my balast will be.:D