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jaybraz78
09-29-2011, 11:26 AM
Recently purchased a 1997 stars and stripes with 351 marinized by escort. I had issues over 3000 rpms and some times when banking right. I rebuilt carb (new needles and seats, gaskets, power vavle, and accelerator pump), replaced mechanical fuel pump, checked fuel lines for leaks, adjusted timing from 2 degrees retard to 8 degrees btdc after reading threads on team talk regarding proper setting. Boat had significant improvement, no issues banking or any issues when just running around the lake accept when throttle is wide open. While running on plain at 4000 rpms engine will just back off, I can pull the throttle back and catch it around 2500, sometimes I can I bring it back up, other times it will hesitate. Also, if i continue to try and start over and bring it back up to 4000 rpms it seems it seems the run time at the rpm becomes shorter, where initially it would run for 20 seconds (as if it ran until there wasn't any more fuel in secondary bowl), then next time it might start doing it at 3700 rpms after a few seconds. Its seems as though this happens after the engine has been running for a while, because as i idle back to the dock, sometimes i cant even open it up to get on plane it wants to stall, but if i punch it, it will come up fine then back off again. But leaving the dock initially it runs like a champ as long as i stay at skiing speeds never opening it up.
Also right behind the flywheel before transmission there is water shooting out of a hole towards the bottom of engine? Doesn't look like a crack or anything, looks like its meant to come out there, though i doubt it..

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Jay

gr82bgreen
09-29-2011, 11:45 AM
Recently purchased a 1997 stars and stripes with 351 marinized by escort. I had issues over 3000 rpms and some times when banking right. I rebuilt carb (new needles and seats, gaskets, power vavle, and accelerator pump), replaced mechanical fuel pump, checked fuel lines for leaks, adjusted timing from 2 degrees retard to 8 degrees btdc after reading threads on team talk regarding proper setting. Boat had significant improvement, no issues banking or any issues when just running around the lake accept when throttle is wide open. While running on plain at 4000 rpms engine will just back off, I can pull the throttle back and catch it around 2500, sometimes I can I bring it back up, other times it will hesitate. Also, if i continue to try and start over and bring it back up to 4000 rpms it seems it seems the run time at the rpm becomes shorter, where initially it would run for 20 seconds (as if it ran until there wasn't any more fuel in secondary bowl), then next time it might start doing it at 3700 rpms after a few seconds. Its seems as though this happens after the engine has been running for a while, because as i idle back to the dock, sometimes i cant even open it up to get on plane it wants to stall, but if i punch it, it will come up fine then back off again. But leaving the dock initially it runs like a champ as long as i stay at skiing speeds never opening it up.
Also right behind the flywheel before transmission there is water shooting out of a hole towards the bottom of engine? Doesn't look like a crack or anything, looks like its meant to come out there, though i doubt it..

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Jay

Has it had the electronic ign upgrade. If it still has worn points that might explain why your timing was out.

jaybraz78
09-29-2011, 11:48 AM
Yes it has mallory breakerless. Thing has got me stumped:(

thatsmrmastercraft
09-29-2011, 01:04 PM
Four things come to mind:

Have you replaced the rubber fuel line from the gas tank? They have been known to collapse upon themselves when old.

Have you re-verified that the floats are set properly? Too low a setting could give the same symptom.

Fuel filters......replaced recently?

Could be sticky advance springs/weights in the dist.

jaybraz78
09-29-2011, 02:06 PM
The hose looks good but I bought a new one today that I will replace when I get home. As for the float levels I set them parrallel with top bowl when inverted then while idling i set the level with fuel just at the bottom edge of the hole on side of each bowl with screw removed, maybe I could bring the fuel level up a bit?
Fuel filters...Guy who owned the boat before had a inline fuel filter which i replaced. Called skidim they said it should have a inline fuel water separator not sure about a inline fuel filter in line with fuel water separator?
Could the inline fuel filter be keeping the fuel pump from 7 psi of preasure on its output to the carb. Was going to put new fuel line on pump and drop it in to the gas tank to take the filters and gas tank pickup out of the equation, if that worked, then pull gas tank and go from there.

jaybraz78
09-29-2011, 02:21 PM
btw, when we set the timing we accelerated and insured that it was advancing, also it will run 4000 rpms all day in the drive way not under load, it only backs off when under load after 15 seconds or so in that rpm range.

thatsmrmastercraft
09-29-2011, 04:14 PM
The hose looks good but I bought a new one today that I will replace when I get home. As for the float levels I set them parrallel with top bowl when inverted then while idling i set the level with fuel just at the bottom edge of the hole on side of each bowl with screw removed, maybe I could bring the fuel level up a bit?
Fuel filters...Guy who owned the boat before had a inline fuel filter which i replaced. Called skidim they said it should have a inline fuel water separator not sure about a inline fuel filter in line with fuel water separator?
Could the inline fuel filter be keeping the fuel pump from 7 psi of preasure on its output to the carb. Was going to put new fuel line on pump and drop it in to the gas tank to take the filters and gas tank pickup out of the equation, if that worked, then pull gas tank and go from there.

You clearly have an automotive, not a marine carburetor on your boat. For safety reasons, you want to replace that with a marine carb. I would find someone to buy your carb for their muscle car, and buy a reman from http://www.nationalcarburetors.com/marine/fourbarrelholley.aspx Chances are that the problems aren't there with the new carb.

jaybraz78
09-29-2011, 07:12 PM
No its a 4160 marine carb, with 2 sight holes on the driver side, one for each bowl. Why did you think it was a car caeb?

1redTA
09-29-2011, 09:03 PM
My 4160 had to have the floats set when I rebuilt the carb there were no sight plugs on mine

jaybraz78
09-30-2011, 04:42 AM
Thx for posting, how did set your floats?

1redTA
09-30-2011, 08:20 AM
you turn the bowls upside down and set the floats level by prying them into a level position

jaybraz78
09-30-2011, 10:36 AM
Mine as well. The rebuild kit said for the dry float setting to invert bowl and top of float should be parrallel with top of bowl, then put bowls back on carb and to remove the screws while idling from both bowls and make sure gas in bowl is at bottom of screw hole, may be dripping out. So i think i had to adjust the needle seat screw a quarter of a turn from the initial dry float setting on the primary bowl.

Just not sure if it is a electrical, distributor problem, or fuel delivery, carb problem?

thatsmrmastercraft
09-30-2011, 11:16 AM
No its a 4160 marine carb, with 2 sight holes on the driver side, one for each bowl. Why did you think it was a car caeb?

No external float adjustments on a marine carb. that is just one of the differences. There are different shaft seals as well as J tubes to return fuel back down the throat of the carb in case of a sunk float. These are all safety precautions to keep raw fuel from leaking in the engine compartment and turning your boat into a bomb.

jaybraz78
09-30-2011, 11:26 AM
Peter I will definitely post a pic of the carb when I get home, definitely dont need to blow the boat up, really appreciate your insight.
Do the Jtubes look like an upside down J pointing back down in the carb above the primary and secondary?

thatsmrmastercraft
09-30-2011, 11:34 AM
Peter I will definitely post a pic of the carb when I get home, definitely dont need to blow the boat up, really appreciate your insight.
Do the Jtubes look like an upside down J pointing back down in the carb above the primary and secondary?

This is a picture of a marine 4160. you can see the hole where the float adjustment screw would be (on top of the fuel bowl) is plugged, and there are no sight bowl screws in the side. You can also clearly see the J tubes on the top of the carb. I am familiar with all this because my '77 came with an automotive carb.

jaybraz78
09-30-2011, 02:35 PM
I do have the j tubes, but have needle and float adjustments, guess I will look into getting different carb. Wonder which one I have, but I will post a pic.

Thx peter

thatsmrmastercraft
09-30-2011, 04:04 PM
Could be the PO put J tubes in..........not a bad idea if you are going to run the automotive version.

jaybraz78
10-02-2011, 10:08 PM
Took the boat out today eith a fuel preasure gauge installed before the carb, At wide open throttle preasure dropped after 15 seconds or so. Was pretty happy to have finally found the issue. Went back to the dock and imstalled new furl line, boat did run better at wot but did lose preasure a couple of times. When the preasure falls it does rather quickly and goes all the way zero. Did not have time to run with fuel line directly into gas tank fill. Will try to blow out fuel pick up with air but pick up is welled only access to tank is with removal of sending unit, so might have to replace tank. Any ifeas would greatly appreciated. Also if the preasure drops that means the problem is definitely the fuel pump or something with tank right? Just replaced the pump and If all need is fix this tank or just buy a new tank that would be great.

Thx again
Jay

sam196370
10-03-2011, 12:10 PM
I had a similar problem, turned out that the pipe that led from the bottom of the gas tank up to the barbed fitting on top broke off - I'm currently looking for someone who knows how to work on aluminum to weld in a new fitting/pipe. I replaced the fuel line and boat ran great when I put the line in a full gas can.

thatsmrmastercraft
10-03-2011, 02:04 PM
Took the boat out today eith a fuel preasure gauge installed before the carb, At wide open throttle preasure dropped after 15 seconds or so. Was pretty happy to have finally found the issue. Went back to the dock and imstalled new furl line, boat did run better at wot but did lose preasure a couple of times. When the preasure falls it does rather quickly and goes all the way zero. Did not have time to run with fuel line directly into gas tank fill. Will try to blow out fuel pick up with air but pick up is welled only access to tank is with removal of sending unit, so might have to replace tank. Any ifeas would greatly appreciated. Also if the preasure drops that means the problem is definitely the fuel pump or something with tank right? Just replaced the pump and If all need is fix this tank or just buy a new tank that would be great.

Thx again
Jay

Have you checked the tank vent............on the port side of the transom. If your tank can't let any air in, it may not let any fuel out.

jaybraz78
10-03-2011, 02:37 PM
Peter i will check it again, but i did blow it out, and also it did do its job by overflowing when i over filled the gas tank. That would be awesome if its something like that. What do you think about the raw water shooting out of the back side bottom of the bell housing plate, after flywheel befor transmission. It looks like the bottom bolt fastening to the back of bell housing is missing, but a bolt hole wouldnt have raw water coming out. On the other side its just the flywheel, unless a freeze plug or something forward of fly wheel is leaking and flywheel turning is pushing it out that hole at the bottom of housing. Probably gonna have to take a picture, just a tight spot underneath the housing before trans.

thatsmrmastercraft
10-03-2011, 09:58 PM
Sounds like it is not the vent, but you might double check it all the same.

I'm having a hard time visualizing where your water is coming from. I will be working in my boat this weekend, but post a pic if you can.

Thinking about what sam196370 had to say, have you noticed any difference related to how much fuel you have in the tank?

There was another thread earlier this season with a similar problem that I think turned out to be too much crud in the bottom of the tank. Problem was solved by removing the tank and cleaning.

jaybraz78
10-04-2011, 02:44 PM
Peter I will try to get that pic up tonight. If its a freeze plug behind the bell housing thats goona be a pain. I feel like if I pull it, I might as well have engine rebuilt. As far the gas tank situation, Ive had two people say the cam could be worn out where mechanical pump lever rides. That cam is hardend steel and the fuel pump I pulled out and replaced a month ago had no signs of wear on the lever. Could that cam be worn and the lever on pump look good, find that hard to believe? Side note, that fuel pump looked very old, so it wasnt recently replaced or anything.

thatsmrmastercraft
10-04-2011, 04:51 PM
There aren't any freeze plugs on the back of the engine. If you are getting water there, it is most likely coming from a leaky head gasket and running down the back of the engine.

The cam lobe for the fuel pump could wear, but it would not show intermittent problems. With the fuel pump removed, you can see the cam lobe and if it were severely worn, you could see discoloration. Flat cam lobes happen occasionally, but seldom for the fuel pump.

jaybraz78
10-04-2011, 10:16 PM
Here are the pics from raw water leaking at bell housing. The pic from the passenger side of the boat shows me pointing back towards the inspection plate on the bell housing where it meets the block, there is a photo back from the engine so you have a point of reference and one up close. You can see the the water running down the middle of bell housing inspection plate. The third photo shows me standing on the drivers side of the boat point down below where transmission bolts up to bell housing. On the driver side just underneath where they meet is where water is flowing. Water is warm and looks like it is coming out of a thru hole or bolt hole where the transmission would bolt to bell housing. No idea where its coming from: leaking head gasket, exhaust manifold? Just seams that there is way to much water if from just a head gasket, but not sure?

Thanks for the help guys!

Jay

jaybraz78
10-04-2011, 10:30 PM
Here are the photos.