PDA

View Full Version : dead boat on dried up lake travis


washmaster
09-22-2011, 10:56 PM
For those of you in Texas, I'm sure you're aware of the drought. I'm on Lake Travis outside Austin and had to be towed back to the dock yesterday. Was skiing, started and stopped several times. Quit to swim, relax in the cove for about an hour. Idled out (5 min.) stopped to drop a skier and no restart. Cranking is fine, lanyard is okay as I have functional guages, sputtered to life for just a second, then died. Today I scaled the 30' cliff down to the dock and the boat started no problem two times. Ran it for 15 minutes up and down the lake and then the same thing. Cranks, no start, occasional sputter.
I'm unable to easily get the boat out of the water. Lake is low, ramps are dried up. Getting tools to the dock is virturally impossible alone, as the dock is now down a shear 30' cliff. I could go over there by jet ski, but I need some idea of where to begin looking and what tools to bring.
I've used Texas Ski Ranch once (fuel pump replacement this spring) but that's pretty far away and I no longer have a tow vehicle since I keep the boat on the water year round.
If I can't figure this problem out and can somehow get it onto the trailer, who in the Austin area is trustworty?
Help! Suggestion.? Need this thing working again in a week as I have out of town guests coming.

Boat is 06 X-9 with multiport RTP1

LA205
09-22-2011, 11:05 PM
Run the blower, this happened to me, it's hot, water is warm, after sitting just a few min, there is not enough oxygen. My 2 cents

washmaster
09-22-2011, 11:20 PM
had the lid open while checking connections. cooled plenty in that time.
Weather wasn't that hot (mid 90s)compared to the eighty five 100 degree days we've had most of the summer. Boat started fine then with and without the blower.

Thrall
09-22-2011, 11:37 PM
I'd start with fuel pressure, no or few tools to carry. Hook a FP guage to the schrader valve on the fuel supply line to the injectors. If it's a milti port (thought the RTP 1's were TBI :confused:) then the fuel pressure should be in the 50psi range (? dont know exactly). If it's a TBI, then lower (30's psi?).
If that works, or you have a strong squirt of fuel comingout the schraeder valve if you don't have a fp guage, then run it until it craps out and repeat the test.
Based on the amount of time you ran it, 15min on a cold engine, I don't think any heat soak issues are coming into play.
Most likely culprit is the fuel pump.

vision
09-22-2011, 11:48 PM
I'd start with fuel pressure, no or few tools to carry. Hook a FP guage to the schrader valve on the fuel supply line to the injectors. If it's a milti port (thought the RTP 1's were TBI :confused:) then the fuel pressure should be in the 50psi range (? dont know exactly). If it's a TBI, then lower (30's psi?).
If that works, or you have a strong squirt of fuel comingout the schraeder valve if you don't have a fp guage, then run it until it craps out and repeat the test.
Based on the amount of time you ran it, 15min on a cold engine, I don't think any heat soak issues are coming into play.
Most likely culprit is the fuel pump.

I agree with Thrall. I know you said the fuel pump was replaced in the Spring, but this certainly sounds like classic fuel pump or at least something fuel related. Good luck.

thatsmrmastercraft
09-22-2011, 11:49 PM
If you determine you have fuel, next thing to check is for spark.

Table Rocker
09-23-2011, 12:07 AM
A can of starting fluid can be a good diagnostic tool.

washmaster
09-23-2011, 12:23 AM
I don't have a guage for the fuel rail. I guess I'll go buy one tomorrow. Anything I need to know about selecting one?
I'll load that up, along with a timing light to check for spark, maybe some ether. Hell, I'll probably get down there and I'll not be able to repeat the problem. Finding a charity tow back to the dock worries me too, as there's not too may folks on the lake weekdays this time of the year.
Any other suggestions?

BTW, off hand, I'm guessing i have about 35 -40 hours on the pump module installed in the spring. That seems like a quick fail even for the MC-spec crap I've been reading about elsewhere on this forum.

Thrall
09-23-2011, 02:56 AM
Yeah it does, but someone else posted here about going thru multiple pumps.
If it only ran for 15 min, maybe you can duplicate the problem close to the dock?
Read up on the pressure spec on here for your boat, think it's all over the "Fuel Pump 101" thread.
If it's the pump, it's likely not making the correct pressure when it's running either.
Can bring a spare sparkplug to ck for spark.
My old 190 had a kind of similar issue, but it ended up being a bad ECM that once it would heat soak, it owuld short out the fuel pump driver, giving no fuel. Then 10-20 min later it would start and run for a bit, and repeat. Drove me nuts diagnosing.
Could be a bad relay for the fuel pump or ECM. Switch relays around to diagnose.
Give all the electrical connections a good once over too. Could be a short, since it's kind of an intermittent problem.

snork
09-23-2011, 08:36 AM
you can barrow a fuel pressure gauge from AutoZone should be around 50 psi

ttu
09-23-2011, 08:44 AM
sounds identical to what my 07 x2 was doing. turned out to be fuel pump failure. would run great in the beginning then after 15 to 20 min it would not run at all.

washmaster
09-23-2011, 10:31 AM
Drove me nuts diagnosing.
Could be a bad relay for the fuel pump or ECM. Switch relays around to diagnose.
Give all the electrical connections a good once over too. Could be a short, since it's kind of an intermittent problem.

Thought about the relays earlier. I think there's three or four back there. Which is which?
As for the other connections, I plugged and unplugged just about every other connection except those relays when I was stranded out there the first time hoping to find something loose like the coil supply or something. No luck that day obviously.

etduc
09-23-2011, 01:02 PM
Simple things first. Did you check your fuel pump screen? Get the fuel pressure gauge, get a new fuel pump(you can return it, if you don't use it.) You do have fuel, in the tank?

There's always these guys:

Jerseydave
09-23-2011, 02:09 PM
Questions:

Make sure you have spark before anything else.

How much fuel is in your tank? If less than 1/2, get it up to 3/4 and try that. If your filter is clogged and you are low on fuel she won't run. If you have more than 1/2 tank the fuel does not go through the filter.

Did you replace the entire fuel module in spring, or just the pump? Was the filter replaced then?
If just the pump was replaced, are the fuel line clamps tight inside module?
Do you hear the pump run when key is on? If not, maybe bad connection at the plug on top of the module.

washmaster
09-23-2011, 03:51 PM
Questions:

Make sure you have spark before anything else.

How much fuel is in your tank? If less than 1/2, get it up to 3/4 and try that. If your filter is clogged and you are low on fuel she won't run. If you have more than 1/2 tank the fuel does not go through the filter.

Did you replace the entire fuel module in spring, or just the pump? Was the filter replaced then?
If just the pump was replaced, are the fuel line clamps tight inside module?
Do you hear the pump run when key is on? If not, maybe bad connection at the plug on top of the module.

I have around 1/2 - 3/4 tank at present. Guage not real accurate.
I'm assuming the entire module was replaced in the spring along with filter. Dealer did it, and I'm guessing they only do it that one way.

washmaster
09-23-2011, 04:09 PM
Got the boat out of the water with some help and into the driveway and fake lake hooked up.

Heres what I found:

~FP guage hooked up, key on unstarted 55lbs. After 1 min 53, after 5 min 49.
~started engine, ran for 10 min at varying rpms, steady at 55
~engine off for 1 min
~restarted and ran for 10 min at 1000rpm. steady 55lbs
~engine off for 1 min
~restarted fine, ran 10 min at idle with cover on. 55lbs
~cut it off and rested 10 min with cover on (ambient air 85deg)
~open cover, FP still 55lbs, restarted but died almost immediately. Almost zero FP
~at this point fake lake fell off. I quickly fixed that and crankeed again. I have spark, but FP remains at zero.
~reseated all ecm connections and unplugged and replugged all three relays
~keyed on, no FP
~swapped left and middle relays (if you're standing behind the engine)
~1st crank, no FP or firing, cranked a second time and FP came up and it fired
***~!
~keyed off and restarted, ran 40 min with cover on.
~resting 40 min now

gonna go check some more now as these results don't seem to prove anything!

washmaster
09-23-2011, 04:14 PM
Got the boat out of the water with some help and into the driveway and fake lake hooked up.

Heres what I found:

~FP guage hooked up, key on unstarted 55lbs. After 1 min 53, after 5 min 49.
~started engine, ran for 10 min at varying rpms, steady at 55
~engine off for 1 min
~restarted and ran for 10 min at 1000rpm. steady 55lbs
~engine off for 1 min
~restarted fine, ran 10 min at idle with cover on. 55lbs
~cut it off and rested 10 min with cover on (ambient air 85deg)
~open cover, FP still 55lbs, restarted but died almost immediately. Almost zero FP
~at this point fake lake fell off. I quickly fixed that and crankeed again. I have spark, but FP remains at zero.
~reseated all ecm connections and unplugged and replugged all three relays
~keyed on, no FP
~swapped left and middle relays (if you're standing behind the engine)
~1st crank, no FP or firing, cranked a second time and FP came up and it fired
***~!
~keyed off and restarted, ran 40 min with cover on.
~resting 40 min now

gonna go check some more now as these results don't seem to prove anything!

Started fine after a 40 min rest with the cover on. Uggh. All these cycles and its only failed to deliver FP once while in the driveway. I hate this crap that can't be easily duplicated.

ncsone
09-23-2011, 04:14 PM
Did you check the electrical connection at the fuel pump?

washmaster
09-23-2011, 04:18 PM
Did you check the electrical connection at the fuel pump?

No. I'll go downstairs and do that now. Its running again in the driveway, cover on.

ncsone
09-23-2011, 04:20 PM
Check the voltage at the fuel pump connection when you know it is working and the next time you lose FP, you might check the voltage at the connection again. If you have good voltage both times, it is most likely a bad connection or a bad pump. If you lose voltage when you lose FP, then something upstream (ECM) is shutting down the fuel pump. I am not an expert, but just thinking things through.

washmaster
09-23-2011, 04:27 PM
Check the voltage at the fuel pump connection when you know it is working and the next time you lose FP, you might check the voltage at the connection again. If you have good voltage both times, it is most likely a bad connection or a bad pump. If you lose voltage when you lose FP, then something upstream (ECM) is shutting down the fuel pump. I am not an expert, but just thinking things through.

Good idea. If i can get it to fail again.
I just came up from wiggling and jiggling on the connections. It kept running.
I cut it off, disconnected the two connections (which is which?). Both looked good and corrosion free.

jamisonsbrodie
09-23-2011, 04:30 PM
Is it possible that the throttle position sensor is bad? this could intermittently affect the FP. Just a guess. Brother in-law had this happen on his 209 with RTP. THought it was fuel pump, ending up being throttle position sensor.

washmaster
09-23-2011, 05:18 PM
Is it possible that the throttle position sensor is bad? this could intermittently affect the FP. Just a guess. Brother in-law had this happen on his 209 with RTP. THought it was fuel pump, ending up being throttle position sensor.

I'm not sure how the two work together.
Here's what I do know:

~key on, voltage is sent to the pump for 3 seconds, then removed. This is long enough to pressurize the rail from zero. If the rail is already at 55lbs, then it still runs for 3 sec, presumeably sending the rest of the fuel back to the tank.
~after the 3 sec. voltage is zero.
~then if you crank the engine and it fires, voltage is again sent to the pump and remains so long as the engine is running.
~ the left relay runs the pump.
~checking for voltage at the pump with the key on after the 3 second won't yield any results unless the engine is actually running.

washmaster
09-23-2011, 10:23 PM
Pulled the pump. Some trash in the tank. Gonna drain and clean it out and replace the filter, which looks fine visually. I'm at a loss as for what else to try. I've been unable to make it fail out of the water except once.

oldairboater
09-23-2011, 11:57 PM
Like the others have said check fuel pressure. Then ignition. Then timing.

washmaster
09-24-2011, 10:38 AM
Like the others have said check fuel pressure. Then ignition. Then timing.

Been all over that. See results in previous posts.

washmaster
09-24-2011, 10:00 PM
Decided to take the 6 mo. old fuel module apart. Here's what I found:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/37169385@N02/6179827728/
cricket parts

http://www.flickr.com/photos/37169385@N02/6179300839/
some corrosion on the base of a 6mos old pump

http://www.flickr.com/photos/37169385@N02/6179299435/
sock on the bottom. RTetaining clip is rusty after 6mos. sock is full of small particles - possibly rust. Don't know how this is possible in a plastic tank.

washmaster
09-24-2011, 10:03 PM
http://flic.kr/p/aq6d5u
This bit was sucked near the pump intake.

washmaster
09-24-2011, 10:13 PM
http://www.flickr.com//photos/37169385@N02/sets/72157627621137795/show/

IDK why the individual photos aren't showing. The link send you to the set. the pump had some crap in it. Cricket parts. Thread sealer. Some corrosion to the base of the 6mos old pump. And the sock was looking pretty bad. IDK where all that rust like stuff is coming from, as this is a plastic tank. The fuel pump 101 thread didn't show a sock set up like I have. I substitued a bosch sock as shown in the pics. Nevertheless, after all that, I reinstalled the assembly and it failed to start just once in about an hour of on-and-off running. FP was constant at 55psi. So after all this, I'm no closer to a solution than when I started.

toolz
09-24-2011, 10:54 PM
Well, there's only 2 ways for junk to get into the fuel tank- through the fuel filler or through the tank vent. I don't know if there's a filter in the vent on a MC, but I hope there is. You never know what crawled into the fuel nozzle at the gas station. Whatever's in there goes in your tank. I'm a bit anal about certain things, so I always turn the nozzel down before I put it into the filler neck. Never seen a dead cricket fall out, but I have seen water. Also, with a fuel injected engine, the fuel is constantly moving through the system, and returning to the tank to keep it cool under it's high pressure. Rust could form somewhere else in the system, and flow back to the tank. There are filters on the way out, but not on the way back, but more likely the junk was from the fuel station.

thatsmrmastercraft
09-25-2011, 12:42 AM
Ever been to the gas station when the truck is filling the tanks................don't. Things get stirred up a bit.

georgea0731
09-25-2011, 10:38 AM
I wish I could help. But sounds like you've done alot of trouble shooting. If it doesn't repeat then maybe you found the solution, but don't know which step it was or what the real cause was. I hope it runs forever with no more issues. Good luck!

washmaster
09-25-2011, 08:31 PM
Put it out on the actual lake, not the driveway today. No failures. I'm keeping my FP guage hooked up for now and VOMeter, some spare wire and the like in the boat. I don't trust it. Time will tell I guess, but I still think it was an electrical issue.