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Kyle
09-16-2011, 11:58 AM
1) I already have a beefed up lower end with rods, pistons, crank
2) already have new cam and gt40p heads
3) already have 4160 carb
4) '93 190 with Slot

I am running a factory intake and would like to upgrade as that is the last thing stock on my boat. I have already read through many intake threads already and can't get all of my questions answered. I'm ready to spend money but I do not want to have troubles with fitting.


Has anyone used the Edlebrock Performer RPM intake. Will it fit with a factory flame arrestor?

I did read the Weiand Stealth was too tall.

I know the Performer will fit but looking at the torque and horsepower graph the Performer RPM has more all around power compared to the Performer.


What about a low profile flame arrestor that will fit and not look stupid?

Btw I have no insulation under the motor box. When I bought my boat it was hanging down so I pressure washed it all off. I have a clean box inside without the foam. So I guess there is a slight bit more room.

I want the most power out of the intake as possible but the box has to shut.

Thanks in advance for answers.

cbryan70
09-16-2011, 12:02 PM
you could raise the box.....

Kyle
09-16-2011, 12:07 PM
you could raise the box.....

Then I would have to raise the pylon.

If the box has to be raised then a supercharger may be in line.

Dylan
09-16-2011, 12:16 PM
If the box has to be raised then a supercharger may be in line.

Sounds like your decision is simple :D

Kyle
09-16-2011, 12:24 PM
Sounds like your decision is simple :D

LOL

Only in my dreams guys. Spending about 5k is out of the picture. I'd rather buy a bad ars tandem trailer for her before a supercharger. I can't stand the single axle.

jamisonsbrodie
09-16-2011, 12:46 PM
I thought you were selling the boat and quitting skiing?? :popcorn::popcorn::friday:

JK of course

TRBenj
09-16-2011, 12:50 PM
The Stealth and RPM are very comparable in height. Find out how much clearance you have by putting some clay on your arrestor. Performer is ~1.5" taller than stock, RPM/Stealth ~2.5" taller than stock. The shortest arrestor you can fit without cutting off your j-tubes is 2"... there are a few available at that height. You can also eliminate the carb spacer and plumb your PCV to the intake manifold if need be.

Dylan
09-16-2011, 12:54 PM
Trb nailed it....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/02fx4/Random/image001.png

Sent from my Droid

j.mccreight@hotmail.com
09-16-2011, 01:18 PM
Kyle, I put the weiand stealth on my ts, I had no issues with height and actually installed a 1/2 carburetor spacer as well and still have about an inch of clearance from top of flame arrester cover to engine box. I don't know if a ts and ps have similar height engine boxes though.

east tx skier
09-16-2011, 02:11 PM
... You can also eliminate the carb spacer and plumb your PCV to the intake manifold if need be.

This is your best bet. The performer or similar will not fit with the stock arrestor without some help. I had a low profile arrestor on mine and had to carve out a channel the noise reduction foam. But I kept the spacer.

Your other option is to build a collar under the motor box and reattach the hinges to that.

The 89s and early 90s boats have different motorboxes with the latter boats having less clearance.

1redTA
09-16-2011, 05:44 PM
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PAX-1001844/

thatsmrmastercraft
09-16-2011, 05:50 PM
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PAX-1001844/

that would be a blast, but with 7.5 lbs of boost I don't think the stock pistons would still be doing the job.

j.mccreight@hotmail.com
09-16-2011, 07:11 PM
Don't know the height of your stock flame arrestor but here is one only 1 1/2" tall should give you plenty of clearance

http://www.boatdesigns.com/prodinfo.asp?number=90%2D460E

Kyle
09-16-2011, 07:24 PM
Trb nailed it....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/02fx4/Random/image001.png

Sent from my Droid

Ok there is a 1 1/4 spacer on my factory intake with a pcv valve line running to it. To I take the way above measuring with or without the spacer???

Kyle
09-16-2011, 07:29 PM
http://tapatalk.com/mu/a6cd09a1-dc49-2127.jpgThis will shut and if I stand on the cover I can feel it touch the wood.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

j.mccreight@hotmail.com
09-16-2011, 07:34 PM
measure without the factory spacer

Kyle
09-16-2011, 07:36 PM
I have another arrestor that is the same size and it is too tall to add this much height.

Obviously the 2x4 is 1.5"

The 2nd arrestor is 2 3/8" total extra height.

I guess it's safe to say max extra height is 1.5"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Kyle
09-16-2011, 07:38 PM
Thanks Jason I'll remove carb and spacer to get a good measurement and go from there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

j.mccreight@hotmail.com
09-16-2011, 07:56 PM
Kyle no need to remove your carb, are our manifolds the same? I still have my original manifold, I measured my original and its 2"(a) and 3.5"(b)= 2.75" carb height no spacer. my original spacer was also 1.25". btw the stamped number on my manifold was E6TE-3425-CB

stealth is: Front 4.37", Rear 5.06" = 4.71" carb height
rpm is: A-4.30", B-5.30"= 4.8" carb height

best bet for height is the weiand, dump original spacer, plumb pcv into manifold use original arrester and you have .75" clearance, basically same for the rpm. If you run the performer (4" carb height) with original spacer and arrester you'll have .25" clearance this is all based on if you have 1.5" clearance now.(your 2x4 spacer)

tommcat
09-16-2011, 08:54 PM
1) I already have a beefed up lower end with rods, pistons, crank
2) already have new cam and gt40p heads
3) already have 4160 carb
4) '93 190 with Slot

I am running a factory intake and would like to upgrade as that is the last thing stock on my boat. I have already read through many intake threads already and can't get all of my questions answered. I'm ready to spend money but I do not want to have troubles with fitting.


Has anyone used the Edlebrock Performer RPM intake. Will it fit with a factory flame arrestor?

I did read the Weiand Stealth was too tall.

I know the Performer will fit but looking at the torque and horsepower graph the Performer RPM has more all around power compared to the Performer.


What about a low profile flame arrestor that will fit and not look stupid?

Btw I have no insulation under the motor box. When I bought my boat it was hanging down so I pressure washed it all off. I have a clean box inside without the foam. So I guess there is a slight bit more room.

I want the most power out of the intake as possible but the box has to shut.

Thanks in advance for answers.

kyle, what cam do you have in it and what is the suggested rpm range for it?

oldairboater
09-16-2011, 09:11 PM
Kyle, how much of a hp increase do you expect. I replaced stock to performance on one of my other boats where clearance wasn't an issue. I really can't tell if I got much bang for my bucks even though it does look good on that big block engine.

east tx skier
09-16-2011, 09:16 PM
This is the flame arrestor that would fit with the slavery. Good luck finding it.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j262/dnortonames/MasterCraft%20Pro%20Star%20205%20For%20Sale/IMG_0029.jpg

Kyle
09-16-2011, 09:59 PM
This is my cam

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/attachment.php?attachmentid=61379&d=1283370835

With the heads and cam, pistons, .40 over block, along with the intake I hope to have 350hp

I'm guessing right now I'm at 325hp

east tx skier
09-16-2011, 10:16 PM
This is all about that race, isn't it? ;)

tommcat
09-16-2011, 10:20 PM
kyle, looking at those specs i think you're a bit high on your estimate but it should still be a good combo. i honestly wouldnt suggest the performer RPM for that cam and application, i think you'd get better results with the regular performer intake. that cam should be in the 1000-5200 rpm range which matches the performer a bit better than the rpm, and at a later time if you wanted to try bumping up your rpm range a bit you could always add a 1 inch spacer below the carb.

Kyle
09-16-2011, 11:53 PM
This is all about that race, isn't it? ;)

We are not discussing the race. Let's just say I'm adding HP.

j.mccreight@hotmail.com
09-16-2011, 11:56 PM
Kyle I edited my math, did your take a look at my numbers?

Kyle
09-16-2011, 11:56 PM
kyle, looking at those specs i think you're a bit high on your estimate but it should still be a good combo. i honestly wouldnt suggest the performer RPM for that cam and application, i think you'd get better results with the regular performer intake. that cam should be in the 1000-5200 rpm range which matches the performer a bit better than the rpm, and at a later time if you wanted to try bumping up your rpm range a bit you could always add a 1 inch spacer below the carb.

Look everyone wants to have a high HP rating. I am just shooting in the dark on total HP. What do you think would be an honest guess on how much HP this would top out at.

Kyle
09-17-2011, 10:59 AM
Kyle I edited my math, did your take a look at my numbers?

Thank you James.

Ok now on my carb in the starboard side rear of carb I do have the pcv valve barb on the carb plugged now. All I would need to do is tap the line to that barb not the intake.

So now the big question is which intake. Rpm will give me more power and torque over the performer.

I'm going to read about the weiand.

thatsmrmastercraft
09-17-2011, 11:25 AM
All the literature about the Performer RPM is geared at street vehicles. My first thought would be a somewhat less than desires hole shot, but considering the difference between the prop spinning in water vs. hooking up tires on the street, I am starting to suspect that the RPM intake may get the job done well. I have a Summit Stage 2 (comparable to a Performer) that came with my '77. It performs extremely well without ever a cough or a stumble.

tommcat
09-17-2011, 12:05 PM
Look everyone wants to have a high HP rating. I am just shooting in the dark on total HP. What do you think would be an honest guess on how much HP this would top out at.

well that cam and head combo is a basic mustang build up which i've done plenty of and they are usually in the 300+ horse range. i think you'll make more torque with the performer than the rpm though which would be beneficial to what the intended purpose of your boat is. dont get too caught up in hp numbers, focus more on the intended rpm range. on average when you're towing what rpm is the boat running at?

east tx skier
09-17-2011, 12:37 PM
On paper, the performer is 15 hp gain. That intake is much better for its mid range torque improvements. I think 15 hp is probably about right. My top end stayed the same, but the grunt improvement in getting up to ski speeds and beyond was very noticeable.

j.mccreight@hotmail.com
09-17-2011, 05:25 PM
Look everyone wants to have a high HP rating. I am just shooting in the dark on total HP. What do you think would be an honest guess on how much HP this would top out at.

your close with your "guess", my sim is giving you 323 hp for your setup.

tommcat
09-17-2011, 05:32 PM
your close with your "guess", my sim is giving you 323 hp for your setup.

which one do you use? i've used a few different simulators including the one from comp cams which was the most detailed one i've ever used, and once at the real dyno they have all been off by quite a bit on the generous side.

j.mccreight@hotmail.com
09-17-2011, 05:44 PM
I looked at the comp cams one along with virtual engine, I agree most sims are on the high side utilizing 100 % efficient numbers 300 maybe 310 is probably a real number, can't really expect more than that bc the carb gt-40 is by itself rated at 285hp add a few hp for slightly better flowing heads and a few more for a better intake.

tommcat
09-17-2011, 10:30 PM
I looked at the comp cams one along with virtual engine, I agree most sims are on the high side utilizing 100 % efficient numbers 300 maybe 310 is probably a real number, can't really expect more than that bc the carb gt-40 is by itself rated at 285hp add a few hp for slightly better flowing heads and a few more for a better intake.

i found the comp cams one was nice to see changes from one combo to the other, even just changes in intake runner volume. although the total number at the end is going to be wrong you can at least get an idea for what kind of changes you'll see like torque change at a given rpm. like anything else it's just a tuning tool and you have to take it for what it is but they can be pretty helpful when trying to pick a component. i used it to pick the latest cam in my 496 and was happy with the results.

j.mccreight@hotmail.com
09-17-2011, 11:05 PM
i found the comp cams one was nice to see changes from one combo to the other, even just changes in intake runner volume. although the total number at the end is going to be wrong you can at least get an idea for what kind of changes you'll see like torque change at a given rpm. like anything else it's just a tuning tool and you have to take it for what it is but they can be pretty helpful when trying to pick a component. i used it to pick the latest cam in my 496 and was happy with the results.

I also used it when i built a 302 for my '90F-150 a few yrs ago. bought a new 5.0 production shortblock from ford racing removed the explorer camshaft, installed the comp, performer 5.0 heads with the 2.02 valves, performer efi intake upgraded to ford racing maf conversion, shorty headers with magnaflow cat back. FR roller rockers, nice valve covers, tci street fighter AOD. never dynoed it but i know it was 300+ hp more importantly it had a ton of torque. For a truck that looked like it came off the farm it kept up with the pony cars and ran mid 13 in 1/4 mile. Unfortunally i had to sell it last year. At least i know it went to a good home and a gear head, he is using it as a tow vehicle for his SCCA cars.

Kyle
09-18-2011, 12:25 PM
My boat pulls most of the time a 34 mph skier in a course or rarely driving on a public lake to the party cove. I'm guessing the 3600 to 4000 rpm range would be max if I'm in the course. Keep in mind I get add more torque, but I want more top end speed. This is tricky because more torque and more HP will mean I can turn a larger pitch prop.

Btw my hole shot is extremely strong now and say 15mph to 36mph or so is very quick. When adding the heads and cam a summer or two ago I noticed a very big difference.

So I'm stumped on which intake to buy. I want more top end and a stronger pull as well. Since I can not trim the boat gaining top end will be hard because the hull is so wet. Frustrating...

1redTA
09-18-2011, 01:50 PM
Eyebrow cutout on the performer intake divider should help with top end as well as mid range torque. I watched a dyno shoot out on horsepower tv between the rpm, rpm airgap and with/out spacers the divider cut out of the rpm helped it run like a air gap rpm. I am going to do the performer and cut out the divider like the air gap. My $.002

gatorguy
09-18-2011, 06:43 PM
This is hard to read, since I want to add some HP to my boat, but it seems you all are telling me because of the ECM it's a no win situation without big bucks and some tuner that doesn't exist. I'm still not sure I'd trade it in for a carb'ed model.

east tx skier
09-18-2011, 08:42 PM
Not impossible. But you may have nailed the issue with the "big bucks" statement.

tommcat
09-18-2011, 08:56 PM
I also used it when i built a 302 for my '90F-150 a few yrs ago. bought a new 5.0 production shortblock from ford racing removed the explorer camshaft, installed the comp, performer 5.0 heads with the 2.02 valves, performer efi intake upgraded to ford racing maf conversion, shorty headers with magnaflow cat back. FR roller rockers, nice valve covers, tci street fighter AOD. never dynoed it but i know it was 300+ hp more importantly it had a ton of torque. For a truck that looked like it came off the farm it kept up with the pony cars and ran mid 13 in 1/4 mile. Unfortunally i had to sell it last year. At least i know it went to a good home and a gear head, he is using it as a tow vehicle for his SCCA cars.

that is a great engine combo, better than what most punks are running in their mustangs

tommcat
09-18-2011, 09:01 PM
My boat pulls most of the time a 34 mph skier in a course or rarely driving on a public lake to the party cove. I'm guessing the 3600 to 4000 rpm range would be max if I'm in the course. Keep in mind I get add more torque, but I want more top end speed. This is tricky because more torque and more HP will mean I can turn a larger pitch prop.

Btw my hole shot is extremely strong now and say 15mph to 36mph or so is very quick. When adding the heads and cam a summer or two ago I noticed a very big difference.

So I'm stumped on which intake to buy. I want more top end and a stronger pull as well. Since I can not trim the boat gaining top end will be hard because the hull is so wet. Frustrating...

i would suggest you use the performer. if you want to add a bit to the top you can add a 1 inch spacer under the carb, if you run the rpm you will be using an intake that is still within your rpm range but intended for the upper range of what you run and beyond and you wont be using all it's worth. performer is good a 1000-5000, rpm is good for 1500-6500, which range do you fall into better?

1redTA
09-18-2011, 09:33 PM
my buddy always said "it takes cubic dollars to make horespower"

etduc
09-19-2011, 04:44 PM
I have one observation, on clearance. My motorbox deflects about 1/4" when someone sits or stands on it. You might want to consider that, in your measurements.

Also, if going to a lower profile flame arrestor, you may negate any performane gains of the taller intake.

east tx skier
09-19-2011, 05:19 PM
The older low profile arrestors were a little wider IIRC. Surface area on them was probably pretty close.

etduc
09-19-2011, 06:14 PM
The older low profile arrestors were a little wider IIRC. Surface area on them was probably pretty close.

Actually, the actual dimension, not just surface area. K&N catalogues use to have have data on proper filter selection. Basically, taller is better, need a spacer (velocity stack) between carb/ TBI, and filter. (Gives air time to straighten up and fly past the jets.)

Straighter air paths, is also the reasoning on taller intake manifolds, when port size remain realitive the same.

Now, we could only be talking about a couple of horses or create a fuel mixture problem.

Just food for thought... buying a taller manifold and putting a low profile spark arrestor, could be counter productive.

thatsmrmastercraft
09-19-2011, 07:20 PM
I have one observation, on clearance. My motorbox deflects about 1/4" when someone sits or stands on it. You might want to consider that, in your measurements.

Also, if going to a lower profile flame arrestor, you may negate any performane gains of the taller intake.

Standing on it?:eek3::eek3::eek3:

etduc
09-20-2011, 09:42 AM
Standing on it?:eek3::eek3::eek3:
You never know, when a lady might want to do, an extended pylon dance. :D

Kyle
10-08-2011, 04:13 PM
Ok I pulled the trigger on a Edlebrock Performer intake manifold.

While I was at the speed shop that my buddy owns he showed me some parts that were hydro dipped with a carbon fiber print. I'm thinking about doing my valve covers and the flame arestor. The process of hydro dipping requires items to be primer coated and then painted followed by the dip so that the screen print will stick. Last step is clear coating them. I spoke with the guy that does the dipping and he said that I could have the rips either dipped or they can still be polished so you can see them better and the Mastercraft will be accented.

It looks cool but wanted a second opinion. Mine will have the ribs and Mastercraft stilly shiny but they will be cleared. Price is $150 for the pair. Since I've done the whole "Pimp My Boat" theme since purchasing it this may be too much. Heck y'all prolly think I am out of line doing all I've done already and think I've ruined a perfectly good boat.

So is it Ghey or Not Ghey to do my valve covers???

Kyle
10-08-2011, 04:15 PM
Here is a place that shows a good example of hydro dipping.

http://www.northtexashydrographics.com/

Currently my engine looks like post 22 like ETS boat.

Oh and my new intake is going to be the satin finish so it will be a very light grey or silver. Not polished or black.

Dino Don
10-08-2011, 04:47 PM
Be interested in how this turns out--been thinking about intake change also even though I have more hole shot and power on than before with my updating.

thatsmrmastercraft
10-08-2011, 10:09 PM
Ok I pulled the trigger on a Edlebrock Performer intake manifold.

While I was at the speed shop that my buddy owns he showed me some parts that were hydro dipped with a carbon fiber print. I'm thinking about doing my valve covers and the flame arestor. The process of hydro dipping requires items to be primer coated and then painted followed by the dip so that the screen print will stick. Last step is clear coating them. I spoke with the guy that does the dipping and he said that I could have the rips either dipped or they can still be polished so you can see them better and the Mastercraft will be accented.

It looks cool but wanted a second opinion. Mine will have the ribs and Mastercraft stilly shiny but they will be cleared. Price is $150 for the pair. Since I've done the whole "Pimp My Boat" theme since purchasing it this may be too much. Heck y'all prolly think I am out of line doing all I've done already and think I've ruined a perfectly good boat.

So is it Ghey or Not Ghey to do my valve covers???

Here is a place that shows a good example of hydro dipping.

http://www.northtexashydrographics.com/

Currently my engine looks like post 22 like ETS boat.

Oh and my new intake is going to be the satin finish so it will be a very light grey or silver. Not polished or black.

Good choice on the Performer..........that is really the perfect intake for these engines.

I like the potential for the dressed valve covers. What finish are you thinking?

I don't think you are nutz to pour your heart and soul into your boat, as long as you realize that you won't get it all back on resale.

Kyle
10-09-2011, 03:00 PM
Good choice on the Performer..........that is really the perfect intake for these engines.

I like the potential for the dressed valve covers. What finish are you thinking?

I don't think you are nutz to pour your heart and soul into your boat, as long as you realize that you won't get it all back on resale.
http://www.northtexashydrographics.com/

If you go to the site above and watch the lower YouTube video then that's what I want. The guy said that he primes and paints a base before dipping. So if he paints and then sands the ribs and Mastercraft Power then the ribs an mc power will still be the brushed or polished aluminum and be accented. Something about the dip not sticking to non painted or prepped surfaces.



I thought more folks would chime in with their .02 cents. Thanks for your opinion Peter.

thatsmrmastercraft
10-09-2011, 03:09 PM
I have seen video of that process in several other places. I think that would look fantastic.

Kyle
10-09-2011, 03:12 PM
Here are some pics.

The money print was done on an Orange County Chopper bike. It's too far out on the design. I also like the skulls but the carbon fiber is a much classier taste.

thatsmrmastercraft
10-09-2011, 03:15 PM
Matching intake and valve covers would be smokin' hot.:cool:

Kyle
10-09-2011, 03:21 PM
Matching intake and valve covers would be smokin' hot.:cool:

Dipping the intake cost as much as the intake cost. I'm considering it. $230 for intake purchase.

$150 dip valve covers
$225 dip intake and water neck
$50 dip flame arrestor.

I'm going to really consider the intake getting dipped. I bet that would BAD A$$ with all 3 done.

I like custom things instead of looking like everyone else. The dip is a custom look with a classy taste that I don't think would hurt being added to the ole boat. That intake in the pic above is pretty cool.

CantRepeat
10-09-2011, 03:32 PM
Dipping the intake cost as much as the intake cost. I'm considering it. $230 for intake purchase.

$150 dip valve covers
$225 dip intake and water neck
$50 dip flame arrestor.

I'm going to really consider the intake getting dipped. I bet that would BAD A$$ with all 3 done.

I like custom things instead of looking like everyone else. The dip is a custom look with a classy taste that I don't think would hurt being added to the ole boat. That intake in the pic above is pretty cool.

That's cheaper then what it would take to get me to make a SS cover like I did for my 92.

thatsmrmastercraft
10-09-2011, 05:37 PM
Flame arrestor would be great. Don't forget thermostat housing, raw water pump, pulleys, alternator.......

That technology is really cool.

Kyle
10-09-2011, 05:53 PM
Flame arrestor would be great. Don't forget thermostat housing, raw water pump, pulleys, alternator.......

That technology is really cool.

Easy Peter. You will have me dipping the entire engine.

Kyle
10-09-2011, 06:03 PM
Tstat housing would have to be done if intake is done.

Here is why I'm up in the air about the intake. The satin natural finish looks cool too. I just don't want to look over done. The top and bottom of the flame arestor will be fiber and the vent side will be shiny. Valve cover ribs will be polished. Carb cleaned but polished. Intake could look cool left alone and have the natural finish. I just don't know.

thatsmrmastercraft
10-09-2011, 06:43 PM
Tstat housing would have to be done if intake is done.

Here is why I'm up in the air about the intake. The satin natural finish looks cool too. I just don't want to look over done. The top and bottom of the flame arestor will be fiber and the vent side will be shiny. Valve cover ribs will be polished. Carb cleaned but polished. Intake could look cool left alone and have the natural finish. I just don't know.

I would leave the intake as is, because there is something about the look of an aftermarket intake. I think it would be a little much, and detract from the valve covers. Doing the flame arrestor would be a nice touch though.

Kyle
10-12-2011, 02:32 AM
Ok has anyone run this setup with a 1 1/4" carb spacer. The performer will fit with the spacer and carb with 1/4" to spare.

Should I run with or without the spacer. I guess I'll try both ways in the morning.

Kyle
10-12-2011, 02:35 AM
Fit being with the factory flame arrestor plus spacer.

Kyle
10-12-2011, 02:37 AM
Here is a pick to see total height.

east tx skier
10-12-2011, 11:35 AM
Kyle, I would suggest that you invest in a riser bracket to lift up the throttle cable where I have it circled in yellow. If you don't, there is a good chance you will have some binding in the cable (red circle) when you try to bring it back to neutral, causing your rpm to hang at about 1,200. You want that connection circled in red to be as close to level as possible.

The second shot is my old engine after the bracket (same manifold as yours). You can see how level the throttle cable is. The bracket is a little harder to see. But I was able to source it from my local CC dealer.

thatsmrmastercraft
10-12-2011, 12:03 PM
Kyle, I would suggest that you invest in a riser bracket to lift up the throttle cable where I have it circled in yellow. If you don't, there is a good chance you will have some binding in the cable (red circle) when you try to bring it back to neutral, causing your rpm to hang at about 1,200. You want that connection circled in red to be as close to level as possible.

The second shot is my old engine after the bracket (same manifold as yours). You can see how level the throttle cable is. The bracket is a little harder to see. But I was able to source it from my local CC dealer.

Good point Doug. I had to add the same thing to my boat. The PO put the intake on but not the bracket.

east tx skier
10-12-2011, 12:36 PM
Good point Doug. I had to add the same thing to my boat. The PO put the intake on but not the bracket.

It was a disappointing and frustrating day on the lake before we figured out what the problem was. Because we had perfect pass, when we shut down and restarted, the perfect pass servo would tension up and unbind the cable. So it was a bit hard to figure out what the cause was.

thatsmrmastercraft
10-12-2011, 12:49 PM
It was a disappointing and frustrating day on the lake before we figured out what the problem was. Because we had perfect pass, when we shut down and restarted, the perfect pass servo would tension up and unbind the cable. So it was a bit hard to figure out what the cause was.

I can imagine. I had put enough aftermarket intakes on cars that this jumped out at me right away.

Dino Don
10-12-2011, 02:26 PM
OK a couple of questions for anyone who did the change out?

1. What did you realistically gain from the intake change?
2. Why the big spacer under the carb.?
3. What is the part number/source for the new bracket to raise the throttle cable?

Thanks!
DD

Kyle
10-13-2011, 02:32 AM
Kyle, I would suggest that you invest in a riser bracket to lift up the throttle cable where I have it circled in yellow. If you don't, there is a good chance you will have some binding in the cable (red circle) when you try to bring it back to neutral, causing your rpm to hang at about 1,200. You want that connection circled in red to be as close to level as possible.

The second shot is my old engine after the bracket (same manifold as yours). You can see how level the throttle cable is. The bracket is a little harder to see. But I was able to source it from my local CC dealer.

Doug

I really didn't like that angle either. I cranked it real quick in the driveway and the rpm was high like 2000 and I immediately shut it off. I took that plate and drilled 2 new holes and it fixed the idle issues. Now I agree on a new or modified bracket but I'm waiting to see if the spacer is needed or not. If I remove the spacer then the bracket would yet need to be changed again. So I'm planning on building a bracket that allows the cable to be level but want the right height and that would only be determined after running the boat.

Today I jumped the boat off due to dead batteries and my ignition was acting crazy because my alternator really is not designed to run a stereo, perfect pass, ignition, all guages etc. It's just too much draw. I may need new batteries but I know my charger is shot. I'm getting a new charger and charging both of the batteries and going to try again Friday. Saturday should be a good day to make a bracket that will look factory and install it.

DooSPX
10-13-2011, 08:54 AM
Keep us updated! :popcorn:

east tx skier
10-13-2011, 12:46 PM
OK a couple of questions for anyone who did the change out?

1. What did you realistically gain from the intake change?
2. Why the big spacer under the carb.?
3. What is the part number/source for the new bracket to raise the throttle cable?

Thanks!
DD

I wish I had a picture of it. Mine came out of a CC parts catalog and I don't have the info anymore. It was basically a right angle plate that mounted to the intake an propped up the cable. SkiDim has something that looks like it might work.

The gain is most noticeable in mid range torque. From a feel perspective, I described it as feeling like you went from 1 prop pushing you to three evenly spaced across the back. In other words, it felt like the boat was being pushed out of the hole and up to speed very evenly across the back. I know that doesn't make much reasonable sense, but there is just a lot of force behind the boat when you need it most in the power band when pulling up skiers.

east tx skier
10-13-2011, 12:47 PM
Doug

I really didn't like that angle either. I cranked it real quick in the driveway and the rpm was high like 2000 and I immediately shut it off. I took that plate and drilled 2 new holes and it fixed the idle issues. Now I agree on a new or modified bracket but I'm waiting to see if the spacer is needed or not. If I remove the spacer then the bracket would yet need to be changed again. So I'm planning on building a bracket that allows the cable to be level but want the right height and that would only be determined after running the boat.

Today I jumped the boat off due to dead batteries and my ignition was acting crazy because my alternator really is not designed to run a stereo, perfect pass, ignition, all guages etc. It's just too much draw. I may need new batteries but I know my charger is shot. I'm getting a new charger and charging both of the batteries and going to try again Friday. Saturday should be a good day to make a bracket that will look factory and install it.

Got it. I don't think you'll miss the spacer. I kept mine, but I was able to get away with it since I had the low profile arrestor.

Jeff75MC
10-18-2011, 05:16 AM
I put the performer on my engine the spark arrestor is now hitting the engine cover. Help! I'm about to cut the top and get crazy with some fiberglass and then upholster the engine cover........

j.mccreight@hotmail.com
10-18-2011, 08:05 AM
I put the performer on my engine the spark arrestor is now hitting the engine cover. Help! I'm about to cut the top and get crazy with some fiberglass and then upholster the engine cover........

You need to read the earlier posts, a low profile spark arrester is needed in your case

thatsmrmastercraft
10-18-2011, 10:08 AM
You could always go this route.:rolleyes:

http://greatlakesskipper.com/product/37_263-boat-engines-engine-parts-and-accessories-misc-motor-supplies/13646-mastercraft-boat-company-mastercraft-859016-motorbox-boat-engine-scoop-cover.html

Kyle
10-18-2011, 10:49 AM
Jeff I have performer intake with the factory flame arrestor and a 1" spacer. It fits under there barely. It fits under mine nicely.

Eliminate the spacer or buy a 1/2" spacer instead of the 1 1"4 spacer.

How much are we hitting by.

east tx skier
10-18-2011, 11:22 AM
I put the performer on my engine the spark arrestor is now hitting the engine cover. Help! I'm about to cut the top and get crazy with some fiberglass and then upholster the engine cover........

You could also build a collar that fits under the motorbox to lift it off the floor an inch or so. Carpet it and attach the motorbox to it. Kind of a mini clam shell.

Kyle
10-18-2011, 11:32 AM
You could also build a collar that fits under the motorbox to lift it off the floor an inch or so. Carpet it and attach the motorbox to it. Kind of a mini clam shell.

IIRC That 205 that was supercharged and for sale last year had a collar that was in a pic. The guy did a good job installing it and it was a good example. I've been looking for a pic of his engine for months.

DooSPX
10-19-2011, 09:48 PM
IIRC That 205 that was supercharged and for sale last year had a collar that was in a pic. The guy did a good job installing it and it was a good example. I've been looking for a pic of his engine for months.

So Kyle, any updates?
Get they new bracket?

Kyle
10-20-2011, 12:11 AM
So Kyle, any updates?
Get they new bracket?

Well I definitely like it love it. I'm now turning 5150 rpm's. Speed really didn't increase that much. Hit 46.5mph and have a ton of mid range. Took 5 seconds to hit 42mph from a dead stop. I didn't think it was bad. I think if I add some weight to the back I can trim the boat and go faster. I just don't think it's horrible for a powerslot.

Right now I have an electrical issue and my ignition starts dropping cylinders. Then the boat has a very hard time starting. Fluke meter goes to 7 volts while trying to crank at the battery and then no cranking is available. I think my Optima batteries are shot. They are 4 years old and have been charged and discharged lots of times. Stereo drains batteries in 45 minutes where before it lasted 4 hours. Now my house battery lasts a very short time. I'm charging my house battery and then going to run the boat and test alternator output and check the voltage at the battery while running. Today the batteries lasted 45 minutes and then would not start. Put a charger on them an the reading was 60%. It's weird bc when I took the charger off before going to the lake it showed 100%. The batteries will not stay charged. I'm also going to check my starter solenoid bc it may be bad. My starter is over 5 years old. So I either have bad batteries, a drain somewhere or a bad starter. When it acts up nothing will happen at the starter and then I tap the solenoid and it cranks. Maybe the starter is bad and is requiring way too much power to crank the engine wearing out my batteries. I just don't know.

I'm going to get both optimas charged to 100% and have them load tested. Then run my problem down. Will know more tomorrow. I'm guessing a bad starter, batteries, ignition switch, alternator. Going to trace with a volt meter tomorrow.

Kyle
10-20-2011, 12:13 AM
Also in the process of building a custom bracket. I had a big problem with the spacer and had to get another spacer. That is ironed out. Now tracing above issues that just happened all of the sudden.

thatsmrmastercraft
10-20-2011, 12:44 AM
Also in the process of building a custom bracket. I had a big problem with the spacer and had to get another spacer. That is ironed out. Now tracing above issues that just happened all of the sudden.

I had to replace the battery in my boat mid-season for the same problem. Didn't have much capacity, then would be fully charged in too short a time. Can't complain as it was the battery that came with the boat. I replaced it with the big Motorcraft I had in my F150. It is the large diesel OE for a Super Duty. Don't remember the specs off the top of my head, but I think I could bypass the neutral safety and let the starter run the boat if the engine failed:rolleyes:

Kyle
10-20-2011, 01:01 AM
I am sitting here tonight frustrated and remembered not connecting the ground wire to alternator and if the boat was at home I'd be fixing that NOW. I don't know if it really has to be grounded but I grounded mine and forgot to reground it during intake swap. Anyway the batteries took an hour to be fully charged at 10a charge from 50%, That's fishy.

Another problem I have is the alternator output was 14 on the guage all day. Why are the batteries draining.

When it stops running the key doesn't do anything. Solenoid is HOT and I can wait for it to cool and everything starts but very slow. I'm thinking starter may be bad along with old batteries. Everything on my boat is wired correctly. I just find it very odd that a starter and battery fail at the same time. That's very rare.

DooSPX
10-20-2011, 09:08 AM
Thanks for the update! why the issues with the spacer? Thought you had clearance? Which spacer did you end up going with?

Have any pictures of the bracket you made?

thatsmrmastercraft
10-20-2011, 09:48 AM
I am sitting here tonight frustrated and remembered not connecting the ground wire to alternator and if the boat was at home I'd be fixing that NOW. I don't know if it really has to be grounded but I grounded mine and forgot to reground it during intake swap. Anyway the batteries took an hour to be fully charged at 10a charge from 50%, That's fishy.

Another problem I have is the alternator output was 14 on the guage all day. Why are the batteries draining.

When it stops running the key doesn't do anything. Solenoid is HOT and I can wait for it to cool and everything starts but very slow. I'm thinking starter may be bad along with old batteries. Everything on my boat is wired correctly. I just find it very odd that a starter and battery fail at the same time. That's very rare.

If your start battery discharges quickly, it will create more heat withing the wiring the same way as if your starter were drawing too much current to start. Might have the starter tested, but it sound like the battery. I seldom believe in coincidences, but with cars and boats, there are often times more than one cause to a problem - it just didn't become noticable until more than one thing was acting against you.

Kyle
10-20-2011, 12:31 PM
Thanks for the update! why the issues with the spacer? Thought you had clearance? Which spacer did you end up going with?

Have any pictures of the bracket you made?

Clearance was not the problem. The spacer was the problem.

The factory spacer had the vacuum port on the rear side. Under the spacer the intake did not mate properly. So I flipped the spacer over and tried to run it upside down. The spacer filled with fuel and then leaked. I never thought it would do that considering the engine is drawing air downward into it. Anyway I got another spacer and everything was good.

east tx skier
10-20-2011, 12:34 PM
When I bought mine, I bought it from skidim and they sold it with an adapter plate so it would mate with the spacer. Probably should have mentioned this before. Memory fades.

Kyle
10-20-2011, 01:34 PM
When I bought mine, I bought it from skidim and they sold it with an adapter plate so it would mate with the spacer. Probably should have mentioned this before. Memory fades.

I refuse to use skidim. When I windowed my block a year ago I tried to buy $2500 worth of stuff and the lady said she was too busy to help me and she would call me back in an hour. I waited a few days and ordered my parts somewhere else. Then 2 weeks later I called her back and told her I went somewhere else because her customer service sucks. Seriously someone's $35 impeller was more important than my order.

That being said the $15 plate was out for me. I would build my own plate before buying one from skidim. So I paid more and bought a Weiand spacer and now may try a spiral cut spacer to see if there is any difference.

You guys may like skidim but I refuse to buy anything from them period.

Kyle
10-20-2011, 01:37 PM
These cut outs were where fuel got sucked in.

Kyle
10-20-2011, 01:40 PM
The outer edge if placed on intake correctly will not mate with the top of the intake causing a vacuum leak. That is why I tried it with the spacer upside down. It won't work so either buy a spacer or a adapter from raggedy ole skidim.

Kyle
10-20-2011, 01:43 PM
Now my pcv valve runs to carb for it's vacuum source.

east tx skier
10-20-2011, 02:31 PM
I refuse to use skidim. When I windowed my block a year ago I tried to buy $2500 worth of stuff and the lady said she was too busy to help me and she would call me back in an hour. I waited a few days and ordered my parts somewhere else. Then 2 weeks later I called her back and told her I went somewhere else because her customer service sucks. Seriously someone's $35 impeller was more important than my order.

That being said the $15 plate was out for me. I would build my own plate before buying one from skidim. So I paid more and bought a Weiand spacer and now may try a spiral cut spacer to see if there is any difference.

You guys may like skidim but I refuse to buy anything from them period.

I totally understand. I got the same treatment from Texas MasterCraft several years ago when I was looking to spend about $1,000 on parts to repair my father in law's boat. I called them time and time again, was promised call backs that never came and finally gave up and used a dealer who wasn't going to make it difficult for me to give them money. Like you with skidim, I am very stubborn in my refusal to give or refer business to them ... period. When I hear people praise their customer service, I shake my head based on my personal experience.

But back to the subject, skidim doesn't manufacture the part. You can get it from Edelbrock.

Link to Part #2732 (http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/install_items/lb/2732.jpg)

TRBenj
10-20-2011, 03:03 PM
so either buy a spacer or a adapter from skidim.
Looks like refusing to deal with SkiDIM this time came back to bite you in the ***. From their website:

CARB PLATE ADAPTER
* Holley square bore to Edlebrock Performer
* Eliminates Vacuum Leaks

Sound familiar?

But, if you think SkiDIM is making those plates special, you'd be wrong.

Adapter at Summit Racing (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-2732/)

One thing I like about SkiDIM is that they tend to list the manufacturer's part number right in the URL.

EDL-2732 at SkiDIM (http://www.skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=EDL-2732)

SkiDIM used to have the best prices on just about everything, now theyre simply competitive on certain items, and overpriced on others. Still, you'd have a hard time finding a better one-stop shopping experience for most boat related parts- their selection and pricing is generally very good. Their customer service has always treated me right, but I guess you cant please 100% of the people 100% of the time.

Kyle
10-20-2011, 03:56 PM
It was much easier purchasing a weiand spacer for $20 that was on the shelf than save $5 and deal with poor service. I wouldn't say anything has bit me in the a$$, I was just trying to make my old one work without buying anything. Either way I was going to purchase an adapter plate or a new spacer.

I figured out my electrical problem. Bad starter. Drove the boat 5 minutes then tried to restart "on the trailer" learned my lesson last time. Would not start. Loaded up and booked it to oreilly auto parts and load tested battery 5 minutes after no start. It passed the load test and still will not start the boat.

New starter will be ordered.

"I'm calling Texas Mastercraft" I love them and they have GREAT service. LOL seriously I am.

thatsmrmastercraft
10-20-2011, 04:08 PM
It was much easier purchasing a weiand spacer for $20 that was on the shelf than save $5 and deal with poor service. I wouldn't say anything has bit me in the a$$, I was just trying to make my old one work without buying anything. Either way I was going to purchase an adapter plate or a new spacer.

I figured out my electrical problem. Bad starter. Drove the boat 5 minutes then tried to restart "on the trailer" learned my lesson last time. Would not start. Loaded up and booked it to oreilly auto parts and load tested battery 5 minutes after no start. It passed the load test and still will not start the boat.

New starter will be ordered.

"I'm calling Texas Mastercraft" I love them and they have GREAT service. LOL seriously I am.

Glad to hear you solved the problem. Now your battery can take life a little easier.

east tx skier
10-20-2011, 05:00 PM
"I'm calling Texas Mastercraft" I love them and they have GREAT service. LOL seriously I am.

Shaking my head. I guess my money wasn't green enough. One of the worst customer service experiences for me in recent memory.

On the other hand:

SKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSK IDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKID IMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIM SKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSK IDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKID IMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIM SKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIMSKIDIM

Footin
10-20-2011, 05:19 PM
Thats Dougs subliminal message, now excuse me while I call skidim.

Kevin 89MC
10-20-2011, 05:21 PM
Yeah, it all comes down to who you deal with. I've had 3 experiences with my local credit union, first was great, second was just horrible, almost cancelled my membership. Dude would just not call me back & follow up. Doug I like that line, my money must have been the wrong color, too! We are in the process of re-financing the house, the credit union was the cheapest, guy I'm working with is golden, really on top of everything. Glad I gave them a second chance, but I agree on small things, often I don't go back, but I try to let them know why not. Only way they will change.

Now if I can only talk the wife into getting enough cash out to get a newer boat! :)

Kyle
10-20-2011, 07:00 PM
Doug you have way too much time.

Thats Dougs subliminal message, now excuse me while I call skidim.

Footin was skidim still in business. If so I'm shocked.

Footin
10-20-2011, 07:05 PM
I believe so, I have never had a problem with them.

Kyle
10-20-2011, 07:05 PM
Has anyone ever seen a starter solenoid get hot and start causing the electrical system to go crazy???


My starter got hot while running the boat and it caused the ignition system to go crazy. I got my boat on the trailer and had 14.15 volts at the alternator and 14.02 Volts at the battery. I turned the boat off and it would not start. I had 12.75 volts at the battery. Load tested 3 times and on the 3rd test it was 12.60 volts. I think it's crazy. I've never seen that happen but chasing wires I could not find anything. Restarted after cooling off and did the same thing again. Looking at buying a new starter. Txmc is $230. Is there anywhere else online besides skidim that is cheaper???

Dino Don
10-20-2011, 07:12 PM
Have it tested---field coils and armature and brushes??? If the frt or rear brass bushings are down and let the armature get too close it will drag. If they touch it shorts out--good shop can fix it. Been my experience anyway!

Last time cost me $45. Bushings and brushes--it was draging.

j.mccreight@hotmail.com
10-20-2011, 07:12 PM
http://www.dbelectrical.com/p-2294-new-ford-marine-starter-inboard-sterndrive-70112-sfd0062.aspx

http://marineengineparts.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page210.html

Kyle
10-20-2011, 07:43 PM
Thanks a lot guys. Mine drags extremely bad. Once running the solenoid gets very hot. Too hot to touch. The end of the solenoid where cables hook in is loose. The shop I calle said $140 max to rebuild mine. He said it starts out at $45 though. My luck it will be $140. I just am afraid of having mine rebuilt. I have never been stranded accept 1 time when my engine failed until last week when my boat quit running and then started after rowing for over an hour (I was alone thank God). I was in a serious foul mood at that time. If I have someone rebuild my starter and it fails in the spring and I get embarrassed because it failed, that starter is liable to go through a shops window.


Jason are the starters that are shown by you rebuilt? If you dont know I will call them and speak with them.


Arco $230 at TXMC and it was new.


Now if they are rebuilt maybe I should get mine rebuilt. I'm just afraid the damn thing will quit again and leave me stranded with a hot chick on board embarrassing me to death causing me to be extremely pissed off because it was not done correctly. I take too much pride and care of my toys for them to embarrass me.

j.mccreight@hotmail.com
10-20-2011, 07:50 PM
Thanks a lot guys. Mine drags extremely bad. Once running the solenoid gets very hot. Too hot to touch. The end of the solenoid where cables hook in is loose. The shop I calle said $140 max to rebuild mine. He said it starts out at $45 though. My luck it will be $140. I just am afraid of having mine rebuilt. I have never been stranded accept 1 time when my engine failed until last week when my boat quit running and then started after rowing for over an hour (I was alone thank God). I was in a serious foul mood at that time. If I have someone rebuild my starter and it fails in the spring and I get embarrassed because it failed, that starter is liable to go through a shops window.


Jason are the starters that are shown by you rebuilt? If you dont know I will call them and speak with them.


Arco $230 at TXMC and it was new.


Now if they are rebuilt maybe I should get mine rebuilt. I'm just afraid the damn thing will quit again and leave me stranded with a hot chick on board embarrassing me to death causing me to be extremely pissed off because it was not done correctly. I take too much pride and care of my toys for them to embarrass me.

Db electronic one is new, the other site does not say

Kyle
10-20-2011, 07:56 PM
Db electronic one is new, the other site does not say

Why so cheap??? $86.90 Is a great price but is it quality. Most of the time you get what you pay for.

Why is everyone else 2 or 3 times in price. There has got to be something up with this. Is it made in China???

Dino Don
10-20-2011, 08:17 PM
Why is everyone else 2 or 3 times in price. There has got to be something up with this. Is it made in China???

That's a sobering thought! But possible--

Kyle, saw your rpm number--what was it before the intake swap??

Kyle
10-20-2011, 08:42 PM
That's a sobering thought! But possible--

Kyle, saw your rpm number--what was it before the intake swap??

4850 rpm's

Kyle
10-20-2011, 08:46 PM
Speaking of rpm's 46.5 mph hits at 4900 and speed doesnt change at all through 5100. It's weird.

j.mccreight@hotmail.com
10-20-2011, 08:48 PM
I would go with the arco, this place has it for like 120
http://www.marinepartssource.com/newdetails.asp?mfgno=70201&pnumber=AR70201&mfg=Arco%20Auto%20&%20Marine&desc=Ford%20Small%20Block%20Inboard%20Starter

Kyle
10-20-2011, 08:50 PM
I would go with the arco, this place has it for like 120
http://www.marinepartssource.com/newdetails.asp?mfgno=70201&pnumber=AR70201&mfg=Arco%20Auto%20&%20Marine&desc=Ford%20Small%20Block%20Inboard%20Starter

Thanks James

1redTA
10-20-2011, 09:04 PM
Get the ARCO it spins the engine as fast as it idles Luckily, ARCO is down the street from me so I picked it up in person, they tested my old starter to make sure I got the correct rotation and told me it was an automotive starter :-0

DooSPX
10-20-2011, 09:19 PM
Speaking of rpm's 46.5 mph hits at 4900 and speed doesnt change at all through 5100. It's weird.

My engine does the same. I reach 44 mph at about 4400rpm (+/-) but max rpm is 4600 and speed doesn't change. In fact, I do not have to go WOT to reach 44 mph. close, maybe 85-90%.

thatsmrmastercraft
10-20-2011, 11:16 PM
Speaking of rpm's 46.5 mph hits at 4900 and speed doesnt change at all through 5100. It's weird.

My engine does the same. I reach 44 mph at about 4400rpm (+/-) but max rpm is 4600 and speed doesn't change. In fact, I do not have to go WOT to reach 44 mph. close, maybe 85-90%.

Sounds like a propeller thing. Perhaps Eric has some thoughts.....

east tx skier
10-20-2011, 11:32 PM
Speaking of rpm's 46.5 mph hits at 4900 and speed doesnt change at all through 5100. It's weird.

Sounds normal. Hard to add mph on the top end.

Kyle
10-21-2011, 04:22 AM
Sounds like a propeller thing. Perhaps Eric has some thoughts.....

Sounds normal. Hard to add mph on the top end.

Damnit boys I want 50 out of her. How do I get there. I'll give Eric a call. I can almost hit 40 at 1/2 throttle. I think 1/4 throttle and we are doing 34 mph. I'm really glad I have perfect pass. I am running a 13.7x17.5 oj prop. It's the 4 blade 1 1/8 standard slot prop. Maybe I will change to a different wheel. Just $$$ right.

DooSPX
10-21-2011, 08:58 AM
I'm not 100% on that Pete. It has been that way since new (I mean really new)- with the old stainless 14x18 3B and the new CNC from Eric. I think its the drag of the 91-94 x wimpy 240hp w/ the slot. One reason I bet they dropped the 240hp in these hulls after 91.
I actually gained 1-1.5 mph with the CNC 4B prop from Eric over the stock 3B stainless. Also, these motors with 240hp are crapped out by 4400rpm anyway, why spin'em higher if you do not gain power. Having a big ford guy in my family :rolleyes::D, I have seen the same without a decent cam and head upgrade in cars/trucks/bronco's.

thatsmrmastercraft
10-21-2011, 10:10 AM
I'm not 100% on that Pete. It has been that way since new (I mean really new)- with the old stainless 14x18 3B and the new CNC from Eric. I think its the drag of the 91-94 x wimpy 240hp w/ the slot. One reason I bet they dropped the 240hp in these hulls after 91.
I actually gained 1-1.5 mph with the CNC 4B prop from Eric over the stock 3B stainless. Also, these motors with 240hp are crapped out by 4400rpm anyway, why spin'em higher if you do not gain power. Having a big ford guy in my family :rolleyes::D, I have seen the same without a decent cam and head upgrade in cars/trucks/bronco's.

I will have to agree with eastie on the difficulty in adding more to the top end.

TRBenj
10-21-2011, 10:55 AM
If you spin the engine an extra 200 RPM up top and gain no speed, then your prop may be flexing, or at least slipping. Ive found that Acme's are generally pretty efficient- in other words, they do a good job of turning RPM into speed. Ive spun hand finished (non-CNC) OJ props at the same RPM and lost speed. No noticeable change in hull attitude... so the difference seems best explained by prop slippage.

Unless you have the pieces (most notably, the cam) that push your peak power to 5100rpm, you'll get a better top end if you can prop it to turn slower. Match the WOT RPM to the RPM where peak hp occurs. Im guessing that would be in the 4800 range with GT40 heads, Performer intake and stock cam.

DooSPX
10-21-2011, 11:13 AM
My boat has always done that since it was new off the showroom. I gained top speed when I switched from the stock stainless OJ 3 blade 14x18 to the 4 blade OJ CNC 13.7x17.5, there is no doubt my new OJ454 did better at turning rpm into speed. Plus it feels like I gained 40hp on the bottom end and holds speed like a vice. It only takes a steady push to half throttle to pull my 200lb tail out of the water with the new prop. I do not care about top end anyway, 98% of the time my boat is at 36mph or less, so either way, I will not be doing anything about it. It out pulls my friends '10 outback with the 320hp (?) like its a 4 banger. I will only upgrade the heads/cam if I toast my current engine, I have been watching ebay for a Performer if its cheap enough for the little weight savings and the mild boost in mid range because its quick swap too.

I believe in a boat like the 91-94's with the extra wetted surface compared to previous hulls, it is well beyond what the 240hp 351 with industrial heads and essentially a 302HO cam (similar specs) can push without running out of breath.
The extra inch or so that I push the throttle down doesn't seem to do anything but spin the motor beyond where it makes power. I will use a quick refresh GPS to check 100% this weekend. If it does gain speed, its a tiny amount that doesn't show on the Air Guides.

east tx skier
10-21-2011, 11:15 AM
I will have to agree with eastie on the difficulty in adding more to the top end.

I think you can get there. But for top end, the performer rpm or other manifold designed for more horsepower rather than more torque is the better answer in that department. Maybe polish the cylinder bores, more aggressive cam (although I thought you had done that), free up the exhaust, wax the bottom of the boat, cut weight like crazy, and you can get there. If money is no object, 50 mph should be readily attainable.

Talk to TRBenj. IIRC, 50 mph is not a barrier for him.

DooSPX
10-21-2011, 11:26 AM
I know that If I pull the ski's, vests, tools and pull the bimini off (folded down at the base of the windshield) I get 1.5 to 2mph. With the bimini up (I know) it's like a sail. 42mph is all she wrote.

thatsmrmastercraft
10-21-2011, 11:37 AM
I know that If I pull the ski's, vests, tools and pull the bimini off (folded down at the base of the windshield) I get 1.5 to 2mph. With the bimini up (I know) it's like a sail. 42mph is all she wrote.

Perhaps you could play with the angle of the bimini to turn a bunch of drag into a little lift to help out.:rolleyes:

O2BESOHUGE
10-21-2011, 11:39 AM
What Will The Performer Intake Do By Itself Without Doing The Heads? Is That Not Worth Doing If You Have To Do It One Addition At A Time?

DooSPX
10-21-2011, 11:47 AM
Perhaps you could play with the angle of the bimini to turn a bunch of drag into a little lift to help out.:rolleyes:

been there, done that! doesn't work like in the movies... :rolleyes::D:D:D

east tx skier
10-21-2011, 12:04 PM
What Will The Performer Intake Do By Itself Without Doing The Heads? Is That Not Worth Doing If You Have To Do It One Addition At A Time?

Increase midrange torque. But it's best done in conjunction with the heads. Start with a good prop.

thatsmrmastercraft
10-21-2011, 12:06 PM
Increase midrange torque. But it's best done in conjunction with the heads. Start with a good prop.

Agreed with the midrange torque, but wouldn't your prop needs then change after the gt-40 heads?

east tx skier
10-21-2011, 12:07 PM
I know that If I pull the ski's, vests, tools and pull the bimini off (folded down at the base of the windshield) I get 1.5 to 2mph. With the bimini up (I know) it's like a sail. 42mph is all she wrote.

Carbon fiber swim platform. Remove back seat. 1/4 tank of gas. Anything you have to have in the boat, try to get it forward of the driver.

It's an uphill battle that I never wanted to fight. I was so happy with the torque increase for how I used my MC.

east tx skier
10-21-2011, 12:09 PM
Agreed with the midrange torque, but wouldn't your prop needs then change after the gt-40 heads?

My boat came with GT-40 heads and the same prop that came on the MCs without those heads. Acme 541 worked just fine before and after the intake swap for what I was doing. Had I wanted to go faster, I'd have gone for a prop with more pitch.

thatsmrmastercraft
10-21-2011, 12:13 PM
My boat came with GT-40 heads and the same prop that came on the MCs without those heads. Acme 541 worked just fine before and after the intake swap for what I was doing. Had I wanted to go faster, I'd have gone for a prop with more pitch.

Interesting info.

TRBenj
10-21-2011, 12:42 PM
My boat came with GT-40 heads and the same prop that came on the MCs without those heads. Acme 541 worked just fine before and after the intake swap for what I was doing. Had I wanted to go faster, I'd have gone for a prop with more pitch.
The additional pitch would not have helped unless you were turning well beyond where your engine made its peak hp.

In the realm of mild ski boat engine modifications that most of us live in (still at or below the 1hp/ci range), propping up (more pitch) is not generally required. Modifications to the top end of the motor (heads/cam/intake) help it to breath, improving midrange torque and keeping the torque curve flatter for longer. This makes your peak hp move to the right. A stock-ish sized prop tends to work very well for both a stock engine turning 4400 and a warmed up engine turning 4800. Only when you move the torque curve up significantly do you tend to need to go with a bigger prop to keep the revs in check... and this generally happens when you get well beyond the 1hp/ci range OR add cubic inches (stroker).

Of course, a modern CNC prop will help in either case.

Note: As an example, I am running a prop that is shorter than the stock wheel, even though the engine is 100hp more powerful. It was simply built to turn at a greater WOT RPM.

east tx skier
10-21-2011, 02:49 PM
Interesting stuff, Tim. Thanks.

DooSPX
10-21-2011, 03:05 PM
The additional pitch would not have helped unless you were turning well beyond where your engine made its peak hp.

In the realm of mild ski boat engine modifications that most of us live in (still at or below the 1hp/ci range), propping up (more pitch) is not generally required. Modifications to the top end of the motor (heads/cam/intake) help it to breath, improving midrange torque and keeping the torque curve flatter for longer. This makes your peak hp move to the right. A stock-ish sized prop tends to work very well for both a stock engine turning 4400 and a warmed up engine turning 4800. Only when you move the torque curve up significantly do you tend to need to go with a bigger prop to keep the revs in check... and this generally happens when you get well beyond the 1hp/ci range OR add cubic inches (stroker).

Of course, a modern CNC prop will help in either case.

Note: As an example, I am running a prop that is shorter than the stock wheel, even though the engine is 100hp more powerful. It was simply built to turn at a greater WOT RPM.


I'm with stupid 8p:D

DooSPX
10-21-2011, 03:08 PM
Carbon fiber swim platform. Remove back seat. 1/4 tank of gas. Anything you have to have in the boat, try to get it forward of the driver.

It's an uphill battle that I never wanted to fight. I was so happy with the torque increase for how I used my MC.

My back seat is never in the boat except for shows and I always run 1/4 tank. Want to buy a CF platform for Christmas ole buddy, ole pal? :D I do really care about top speed, but something to make the wake better then it already is, is a plus! 8p

east tx skier
10-21-2011, 05:38 PM
This seems to be the extreme of boat diet. But note the CF swim platform.

Fluid Motion's Carbon Fiber Ski Nautique TSC Project (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-building/carbon-ski-nautique-project-34908.html)

DooSPX
10-21-2011, 09:04 PM
This seems to be the extreme of boat diet. But note the CF swim platform.

Fluid Motion's Carbon Fiber Ski Nautique TSC Project (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-building/carbon-ski-nautique-project-34908.html)

Doug, can I be on your Christmas list? :D

Kyle
10-22-2011, 07:11 AM
Well boys I haven't had time to shop at all for a starter. I got a call the other day from a buddy who has a customer who is running his 2010 camaro in the Texas Mile. I worked on the car from 4p fri until 5a sat morning. Got the thing running and did a custom tune and ran lots of passes on the Dyno. We have 936 rear wheel HP and 899 ft lbs of torque. It is turbo charged and we are running 21 lbs of boost. It's a total custom build that started Monday and we finished in time to have the car in south Texas by noon on Saturday and make his deadline. 10 techs were working on this car constantly all night. 9 of the techs including myself in the 9 volunteered our fri night and sat morning until 5a busting out a$$'s getting this car in the best shape and perfectly tuned for the 1 mile drag race. We think we have a 200+ mph car. I'll let y'all know next week what the car ran as I am not making the trip to south Texas to watch. It has been really fun to be included in the build.

The last 2 camaros did really well.
2010 camaro supercharged ran 201mph @ 7200 rpm's
1969 camaro ss highly modified ran 195mph.

All of these cars are street legal cars. All around the 150k range as far as cost to get them where they are. Totally kick A$$.

Kyle
04-03-2012, 04:36 PM
.......................

Kyle
04-03-2012, 04:42 PM
Alright guys I have now got around to making a new throttle cable bracket. I knew that I wanted it level but was more concerned in getting a few last sets in before the year was over last year. I lake tested it with the new intake and the starter went out so I just gave up fooling with the boat until I had the fever to get everyting back going again. I have since purchased a new starter and an shoping for some new batteries for 2012.

Here is what I built today for my new throttle cable. I am not finished...... I need to assemble it and make sure I can get the right height and then cut the top down. Then I plan on shaping the sides better and priming and painting it.

I went to the Home Depot and bought some metal and used my old bracket to trace out a pattern adding plenty of room for later adjustments since I will be trimming it down. I heated the metal after it was cut out and bent it to shape the bottom where it attaches to the intake. I think this will work.

gatorguy
04-03-2012, 09:51 PM
Do you own shoes? Haven't seen them on you ever in any of the photos.

Kyle
04-03-2012, 10:58 PM
Do you own shoes? Haven't seen them on you ever in any of the photos.

Hey now don't hate on my sexy feet...


Post #58 wearing boots

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=34078&page=6


I wear shoes lol but try not to on carpet but you can see I am breaking the rules here.

Also post #45 flip flops in same thread as above.

thatsmrmastercraft
04-03-2012, 11:42 PM
Do you own shoes? Haven't seen them on you ever in any of the photos.

:uglyhamme:uglyhamme:uglyhamme

gatorguy
04-04-2012, 11:16 AM
Hey now don't hate on my sexy feet...


Post #58 wearing boots

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=34078&page=6


I wear shoes lol but try not to on carpet but you can see I am breaking the rules here.

Also post #45 flip flops in same thread as above.

Nothing wrong with bare feet. It was more of a lifestyle statement, as in "man this guy has got the life, he never has to wear shoes." The rest of us shmucks have got to go to jobs that require propper foot wear. I must complement you on your taste in boots. I've got a pair just like them that I wear in the O.R. everyday.

TRBenj
04-04-2012, 05:37 PM
That bracket will work.

These (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G1419/) also work well, not bad for $22.

http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/SUM-G1419_IT.jpg

Kyle
04-04-2012, 05:51 PM
Nothing wrong with bare feet. It was more of a lifestyle statement, as in "man this guy has got the life, he never has to wear shoes." The rest of us shmucks have got to go to jobs that require propper foot wear. I must complement you on your taste in boots. I've got a pair just like them that I wear in the O.R. everyday.

LOL

I even wear my flops to work unless I have clients coming in. My clients are my boss, so when they are not scheduled to come in, I will wear whatever I want. Most of the time its either boots n jeans or a suit. I have my fair share of wearing shoes...


I think those boots were my Double H boots or my Ariat's

I like my Anderson Beans a lot better. AB makes the most comfortable boots IMO, I have several pair.


FWIW I have more boots than any other kind of foot wear. Then it is flip flops, followed by dress shoes, then tennis shoes.

Kyle
04-04-2012, 05:59 PM
That bracket will work.

These (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G1419/) also work well, not bad for $22.

http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/SUM-G1419_IT.jpg

That would be too easy now lol

oh well I remember that if this rigged up piece wont work.


BTW where does the return spring attach to on this kind of bracket?

TRBenj
04-05-2012, 11:37 AM
No provision for a return spring on that bracket... my PCM's have their return springs connected to a bolt on the intake manifold, IIRC.

east tx skier
04-05-2012, 12:47 PM
I don't have any better pictures, but you can sort of see the bracket on mine (ordered from a PCM parts catalog btw).

Kyle
04-24-2012, 08:10 AM
Well it looks like we lost some of yesterday's posts. After reading a post from ETS I decided to post pics again of my final bracket install. He mentioned it being helpful for the next guy.

Kyle
04-24-2012, 08:15 AM
Had to switch to tapatalk to install pics. Also figured I needed to make sure my post count gets back to where it was before yesterday's melt down.
77842
77843
77844
77845
77846

DooSPX
04-24-2012, 08:43 AM
Nice bracket Kyle... I may have you make me one when I get my manifold;)

Kyle
04-24-2012, 09:05 AM
Nice bracket Kyle... I may have you make me one when I get my manifold;)

Shipping would cost more than what I have in this bracket lol. Otherwise I'd say let me build you one out of the scrap material I have from this one. Had to buy enough for 4 brackets to make one, $8 for the metal at HD.



When are you going to wake up that boat of yours. I'm itching to see and hear how your project goes. It really makes a huge difference with heads, cam, intake change. Maybe you can Soop ER Up and bore block and add the goodies over 2012 winter.