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shunra
09-12-2011, 08:26 PM
I have just noticed that I have water getting into 2 adjacent cylenders. The engine is obvioulsy running rough as I am pretty sure that the two cyllinders are not firing due to the water.

The water is also evident in the engine oil.

Any idea how to diagnose where it is coming from

j.mccreight@hotmail.com
09-12-2011, 08:47 PM
Start by removing spark plugs and do a compression test. You probably have a head gasket that is blown. Indmar's specification is minimum of 100 psi and not to exceed 70% from the highest to lowest cylinders. You need remove all plugs, disable fuel pump, hold throttle wide open remove safety laynard do test while warm and crank engine over until you get the highest reading on gauge usually around 5 rotations. 175 psi is a good average number to been around. If you have two cylinders side by side with low compression then its the head gasket. If a cylinder has low compression, inject approximately one tablespoon of engine oil into the combustion chamber through the spark plug hole and retest.

shunra
09-12-2011, 09:18 PM
I will do that and report back.

Is there any way a problem in the exhaust manifold can cause a problem like this?

j.mccreight@hotmail.com
09-12-2011, 09:26 PM
It's possible if the water jacket in manifold is cracked, rusted and leaking into the exhaust side. The compression test will isolate the head gaskets if thats good then I would look at the exhaust manifold for leakage.

JimN
09-12-2011, 09:45 PM
I have just noticed that I have water getting into 2 adjacent cylenders on my 2002 X-star with the TBI engine. The engine is obvioulsy running rough as I am pretty sure that the two cyllinders are not firing due to the water.

The water is also evident in the engine oil.

Any idea how to diagnose where it is coming from


Has it recently overheated?

shunra
09-12-2011, 09:56 PM
Has it recently overheated?

No it hasn't overheated but I am chasing a separate problem that has lead to some major backfiring. I am wondering if the backfiring has caused some kind of problem in the exhaust manifold.

JimN
09-12-2011, 11:02 PM
No it hasn't overheated but I am chasing a separate problem that has lead to some major backfiring. I am wondering if the backfiring has caused some kind of problem in the exhaust manifold.

There are very few reasons this motor would backfire- the plug wires being installed in the wrong order being the easiest to do and reverse. The other is setting the timing when the ECM isn't in diagnostic mode. That isn't negotiable- if it's not in diagnostic mode, checking, changing and verifying timing is impossible.

The exhaust manifolds are cast iron- if you have backfiring, the most likely location of damage will be the muffler(s).

shunra
09-13-2011, 04:42 PM
.......................

j.mccreight@hotmail.com
09-13-2011, 05:33 PM
Here are the results of the compression test:

Cylinder 1,3,5,7 - 185, 170, 170, 17
Cylinder 2,4,6,8 - 185, 10, 0, 165

Looks like basically no compression on #4 and #6. These are also the two adjacent cylinders that I found water in.

What is next?

Time to pull the cylinder head and inspect head and block for cracks, if none are found replace gasket.

shunra
09-13-2011, 08:50 PM
Would the cracks be visible with the naked eye? I'd hate to do all that work twice.

j.mccreight@hotmail.com
09-13-2011, 09:11 PM
Would the cracks be visible with the naked eye? I'd hate to do all that work twice.

Most of the time yes, just be sure to clean the face of head real good if anything it will be a hairline type crack, you could take the head to a machine shop after you have it off and have them magnaflux it for leaks and check the head for warpage probably not more than $250 for it to be checked out. Cylinder heads don't crack that often but its better to rule it out than do the job again.

JLeuck64
09-13-2011, 10:04 PM
Screw one of the plugs back in on the low cylinder, then repeat the compression test on the other low cylinder. You should see compression rise, indicating a blown head gasket.

I was curious about the two middle cylinders being the low compression... makes me wonder if the riser gasket might be leaking water onto the exhaust valves. If they both got rusted out that could be the cause of low compression. But regardless the cause the head will need to come off...

JimN
09-13-2011, 10:09 PM
I have just noticed that I have water getting into 2 adjacent cylenders on my 2002 X-star with the TBI engine. The engine is obvioulsy running rough as I am pretty sure that the two cyllinders are not firing due to the water.

The water is also evident in the engine oil.

Any idea how to diagnose where it is coming from

Are you the original owner? Does it look like the heads and/or intake manifold have gasket sealant squeeze-out? If the head gaskets had that put on it, even mild overheating will cause the sealant to "flow under pressure", which will lead to the exhaust gases bypassing the gasket and eroding it. I saw this once and saw that about 1-1/2" of gasket material was missing when I pulled the heads.

wtrskr
09-14-2011, 12:14 AM
I can relate. Last year I discovered a blown head gasket on my TBI - actually it may have been the same two cylinders too. I had full compression in both so that was a difference.

You can test the exhaust manifold but if that was the problem I don't think your compression would be low.

Have you pulled heads before? I can share what I remember about my experience if this is new to you like it was for me.

JLeuck64
09-14-2011, 12:20 AM
Most of the time yes, just be sure to clean the face of head real good if anything it will be a hairline type crack, you could take the head to a machine shop after you have it off and have them magnaflux it for leaks and check the head for warpage probably not more than $250 for it to be checked out. Cylinder heads don't crack that often but its better to rule it out than do the job again.

What in Hades did THAT head come off of???

shunra
09-14-2011, 02:03 PM
Screw one of the plugs back in on the low cylinder, then repeat the compression test on the other low cylinder. You should see compression rise, indicating a blown head gasket.

I was curious about the two middle cylinders being the low compression... makes me wonder if the riser gasket might be leaking water onto the exhaust valves. If they both got rusted out that could be the cause of low compression. But regardless the cause the head will need to come off...

I tried that and the compression did not rise. I am thinking this probably means that the gasket leak is from the cylinders to the water jacket.

shunra
09-14-2011, 02:08 PM
Are you the original owner? Does it look like the heads and/or intake manifold have gasket sealant squeeze-out? If the head gaskets had that put on it, even mild overheating will cause the sealant to "flow under pressure", which will lead to the exhaust gases bypassing the gasket and eroding it. I saw this once and saw that about 1-1/2" of gasket material was missing when I pulled the heads.

I'm not the original owner, but I've been running this boat for 4 seasons.

I can't see any gasket squeeze-out.

I am assuming I will need to use new intake and exhaust gaskets as well?

Can I buy these gaskets from any automotive shop? Or is there something special about them?

shunra
09-14-2011, 02:12 PM
I can relate. Last year I discovered a blown head gasket on my TBI - actually it may have been the same two cylinders too. I had full compression in both so that was a difference.

You can test the exhaust manifold but if that was the problem I don't think your compression would be low.

Have you pulled heads before? I can share what I remember about my experience if this is new to you like it was for me.

I am pretty mechanically inclined but I have never done this before so anything you can share is helpful.

Did you use new head bolts? Some people say I should.

wtrskr
09-14-2011, 03:03 PM
I ordered my gaskets from skidim.com after first checking a couple other places for prices. They are marine specific. I also used the same bolts but was told afterwords that it probably isn't worth the risk, at least for the heads.

I'd try picking up or ordering the clymers indmar manual. The one I used covered up to the 2003 model year I beleive. I had my wife check the library when she was there, and fortunately the generous taxpayers of my commuinity were able to foot the bill so that I could borrow it for a few weeks.

Gaskets needed

-Intake manifold gasket for both sides
-exhaust manifold gasket (kept riser attached)
-head gasket
-I feel like there was one other one too but I can't remember. Keep the throttle body attached so you don't need gaskets for that.

Other supplies

-Solvent or gasket remover for getting the gasket material off (worst part of the project).
-anti-seize for the exhaust manifold bolts when putting back together
-A small tube of PTFE pipe thread compound for head bolts
-Permatex medium threadlock compound for intake manifold bolts
-Tube of RTV for front and rear intake manifold (unless yours has a rubber gasket in that area)
-Torque wrench (can rent from autoparts store).

I'd first set your engine so the #1 cylinder is at Top Dead Center by turning it over by hand with the spark plugs out. Don't turn the engine at all after that. When you replace your valve's some get tightened down with the engine at this spot, then you turn the engine over and do the others.

Make sure you mark the location of your distributor when you remove it and don't turn the engine at all with it removed. Valve bolt tightening is done after the dist. is back on.

For the most part it is simply taking things apart then putting it back together how you found it. Be as detail oriented as you can putting bolts and each part back in same locations they came out from. I did a lot of marking and labeling along the way (egg cartons etc.)

Also, don't forget to unplug the battery first and shut off the fuel line at the tank.

wtrskr
09-14-2011, 03:17 PM
Oh, one other supply that you may need when it comes time to reassemble is gasket sealant.

I had troubles finding if this was necessary or not and never got a firm answer. I was told three different things 1. none, 2. Indian Shellac and 3. Permatex high tack. If someone here doesn't have good answer on that I'd check with the manufacturer of the gaskets if you have to.

Kevin 89MC
09-14-2011, 06:02 PM
I know mine is a different engine, but when I blew my headgasket, I got the gasket set from Skidim, got a set of head bolts from Summit, got a tube of black Permatex gasket sealer from Autozone, and everything worked out great. If you are mechanically inclined and have the time, go for it. I'm glad I did.
Good luck,
Kevin

shunra
09-14-2011, 06:35 PM
Well I have the head off and yes the head gasket is definitely blown out between the cylinders in question.

j.mccreight@hotmail.com
09-14-2011, 06:45 PM
Well I have the head off and yes the head gasket is definitely blown out between the cylinders in question. However, I think I have a bigger problem. It looks like some of the metal on the head between the two cylinders is eroded away. I don't think a new gasket would seal.

Do I need a new head? Can they fix this kind of stuff?

Take a straight edge to it and see if their is a gap, then take it to a machine shop and have them check it out, yes heads can been repaired just depends on damage. If its non- repairable the shop could probably get you a head.