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View Full Version : Blown engine at 500 hours


djkslc
08-26-2011, 07:10 AM
Self diagnosis so far, but we were day two of our lake powell trip and my 2002 xstar with the ltr went boom. I was out air chairing and the people in the boat heard a loud boom and the boat just stopped. I climbed in and tried to start it back up and it would start, but there is some awful banging noise coming from the engine like parts and pieces are flopping around. Just my guess, but I would say some sort of broken connecting rod. That is the worst feeling to hear that noise. So what the crap, 500 hours seems a bit low to have this happen. Yes there is oil in it, checked that. Any advice, comfort or direction to go from here. I'm in salt lake and I don't love the dealer, I'm thinking of finding someone else to rebuild if any one knows someone around here.

So the current 5am status update is that this lake powell is not going to be ruined by a blown engine. My brother in law and i loaded the boat back on the trailer, had the boat back in the drive way by 11:30 and by 12:30 am we had our buddy that is with us 2003 xstar hooked up. We took a4 hour sleep and now were are back on the road to be back in lake powell by 9am. The conditions are too good down there not to keep this trip going.

I'm totally bumbed about my boat. About two hours before I was telling the guys in the boat that I was going to hit the 500 hour milestone that day. Nope, feel a bit short at 499.6.

oldairboater
08-26-2011, 07:25 AM
Not that many hours. I would be figuring out why and how plus what happened.

Jerseydave
08-26-2011, 08:17 AM
Is the oil nice and clean or is it milky?

First step would be remove the valve covers and see if you dropped a valve caused by a broken spring, etc.

If you still don't see the cause, remove intake manifold and heads (or just pull engine out at this point)

Any external holes in block, oil pan, etc?

Don't try to start it again, you may do more damage.

djkslc
08-29-2011, 08:54 PM
Over the phone the local dealer thinks its a Damper Plate problem. However the horrible metal on metal noise happens when the engine is in neutral or drive. Any thoughts?

Table Rocker
08-29-2011, 09:00 PM
Over the phone the local dealer thinks its a Damper Plate problem. However the horrible metal on metal noise happens when the engine is in neutral or drive. Any thoughts?The damper plate turns whenever the engine does like a flywheel. It connects the engine to the transmission. Your neutral occurs in the transmission.

djkslc
08-29-2011, 09:02 PM
So it could be the Damper plate? Is that an expensive repair. It sounded horrible.

thatsmrmastercraft
08-29-2011, 09:09 PM
Remove the starter and look for any parts/pieces/shrapnel. If you find any debris, it is your damper plate.

As previously asked, how does the oil look? Any change in level?

I also second that you don't want to run the engine until you have some more info as to what the problem is so that you don't make it worse.

mikeg205
08-29-2011, 10:08 PM
wow...500 hours - not many hours at all... I am curious about the oil as well. How often did you run WOT?

bigmac
08-29-2011, 10:16 PM
The loud bang and the horrible racket go along with a broken damper plate, not to mention the ability to get the engine running. Plus, broken damper plate is a more likely occurrence than a broken connecting rod if the engine has oil and has had reasonable maintenance.

Sometimes, when those damper plates go, they put holes in the bell housing. Check it carefully.

gatorguy
08-29-2011, 11:15 PM
Good luck, sound liKe you have an early winters project on your hands. I just turned 500hrs while I was at Powell this summer too.

jwardenjr
08-29-2011, 11:44 PM
let us know what is up ... that is not many hours ..

curtish
08-29-2011, 11:59 PM
:popcorn:...

djkslc
08-30-2011, 12:08 AM
I am taking it to the dealer tomorrow, and they said it would take a week to look at it, so I will keep you posted. To answer a few questions above, the oil level and color looks good, I changed it at 450 hours and I am now at 499.6, so it is not overly old. I never do WOT, I ski at 33 mph and we surf with an extra thousand pounds at 10.7 mph, which is probably the hardest on the boat.

The8Ball
08-30-2011, 12:47 AM
Shouldn't be happening, at 500 hours... good luck...

gr82bgreen
08-30-2011, 01:08 PM
So it could be the Damper plate? Is that an expensive repair. It sounded horrible.

It would be way cheaper than a new engine. It was my first thought as well when reading this thread. Hope you were able to enjoy the rest of your holiday and worry too much about your boat.

mikeg205
08-30-2011, 01:20 PM
Yeah good luck as well... 500 hours is nothing...

djkslc
09-07-2011, 02:00 PM
Got the call from the dealership and the diagnosis is the engine threw a rod. They recomend replaceing it with a remanufactured engine at the tune of about 7K. Any thoughts and condolences out there.

Bouyhead
09-07-2011, 02:16 PM
My condolences bro, that sucks. I know sometimes things just break but something does'nt sound right. Are you the original owner? Any strange noises before the failure? Is a second opinion out of the question? I only ask this because in your OP you said you were'nt crazy about the dealer and like the others guys said it sounds like a damper plate. Good luck.

djkslc
09-07-2011, 02:23 PM
I am taking it to a SN dealer in town that does a lot of motor rebuilds and have them give me a second opinion.

thatsmrmastercraft
09-07-2011, 03:28 PM
I am taking it to a SN dealer in town that does a lot of motor rebuilds and have them give me a second opinion.

Sounds like a good idea.

mrprostar
09-07-2011, 04:50 PM
Our company has a service truck that was diagnosed and supposedly needed a new engine for $14,000. We got a second opinion and all it needed was new injectors for $3000. Its always worth a second opinion.

tommcat
09-07-2011, 04:56 PM
Our company has a service truck that was diagnosed and supposedly needed a new engine for $14,000. We got a second opinion and all it needed was new injectors for $3000. Its always worth a second opinion.

powerstroke??

Dino Don
09-07-2011, 05:24 PM
I am taking it to a SN dealer in town that does a lot of motor rebuilds and have them give me a second opinion.

Good idea--7k I think is too much.

hoosier skier
09-07-2011, 05:40 PM
If your slightly handy , it's easy to check yourself . Remove all sparkplugs , put a breaker bar with a socket on the crank pulley and turn the engine over by hand . Have an assistant put their finger in an open spark plug hole and see if they get suction on intake and positive pressure on exhaust . Repeat for all cyl's . Pm me for questions

mrprostar
09-07-2011, 05:48 PM
powerstroke??

Duramax.............

Thrall
09-07-2011, 09:12 PM
$5k to $10k:eek: is the prices I'v heard from those who've had new long blocks installed. Not MC's either. The $10k one was a Mercruiser 5.7 in a Chapparal. That shop saw my buddy coming from a mile away and took him for all he was worth!
Haven't looked at re-man sbc chevies in a while, but parts wholesale to you ie: a new short or long block from someone like Jasper should be no more than $2k.
Figure a day's labor for the complete switch over for 2 guys in a shop if everything else is in order.
So $2k engine marked up 50% to $3k and $2k labor....$5k is about right for a shop price.
DIY, $2k + something to pull the engine+ 3cases of beer + 1 weekend of your time.

Thrall
09-07-2011, 09:12 PM
Duramax.............

$3k isn't bad for new DMax injectors...installed.

vision
09-07-2011, 09:43 PM
A thrown rod or a damper plate? Man, those are two desperate diagnoses! I hope its the damper plate, but that would be a bit embarrassing for the first mechanic.

dummy
09-07-2011, 10:40 PM
Those prices are insane. Just grab a 4-bolt main L-31 Vortec short block and reuse your heads, cam, and accessories providing they're not damaged. Or get the L-31 long block and install the marine camshaft.

thatsmrmastercraft
09-07-2011, 10:45 PM
go the Jasper Marine route. I was a sales rep for them. Fantastic quality products. I had them build a 351W for my truck when I worked there. 250,000 miles on it and it is still running strong.

djkslc
09-08-2011, 02:27 PM
I called Jasper and they needed to know if it was an OMC or Mercruiser moror. I don't have it here, does anyone know?

ttu
09-08-2011, 02:38 PM
if i am understanding your question correctly you have a indmar engine.

might check with skidim.com also.

dummy
09-09-2011, 10:01 AM
$5k to $10k:eek: is the prices I'v heard from those who've had new long blocks installed. Not MC's either. The $10k one was a Mercruiser 5.7 in a Chapparal. That shop saw my buddy coming from a mile away and took him for all he was worth!
Haven't looked at re-man sbc chevies in a while, but parts wholesale to you ie: a new short or long block from someone like Jasper should be no more than $2k.
Figure a day's labor for the complete switch over for 2 guys in a shop if everything else is in order.
So $2k engine marked up 50% to $3k and $2k labor....$5k is about right for a shop price.
DIY, $2k + something to pull the engine+ 3cases of beer + 1 weekend of your time.

Pretty close. Here's your long-block, although the camshaft is different than the LTR cam.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-12530283/

Not entirely positive, but I'm fairly sure the LTR uses this cam. Or just run your current cam if it's not wiped out or damaged. It's a hydro-roller, so it's fine to reuse with the lifters that come in the L31 crate engine:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-14097395/

gatorguy
09-09-2011, 10:29 AM
Sounds like a fun project. If you do it yourself you can spend less, add more HP and still come out ahead, and you'll know your boat in and out when you are done.

gr82bgreen
09-09-2011, 10:31 AM
Pretty close. Here's your long-block, although the camshaft is different than the LTR cam.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-12530283/

Not entirely positive, but I'm fairly sure the LTR uses this cam. Or just run your current cam if it's not wiped out or damaged. It's a hydro-roller, so it's fine to reuse with the lifters that come in the L31 crate engine:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-14097395/

If your going to reuse your cam, why not just get a shortblock and reuse your heads also. 500 hrs are not much on your heads. just check for damage at from the piston first if the rod broke.

jonboy688
09-09-2011, 04:42 PM
can you do a compression check on the motor? advance or napa or any aftermarket car store sells compression checkers for 20-30 bucks , if you have a broken rod then you will deff have zero compression on once of the cyclinders, just remove the coil wire and remove a plug at a time and spin the motor over with the compression tester

thatsmrmastercraft
09-10-2011, 02:46 PM
I called Jasper and they needed to know if it was an OMC or Mercruiser moror. I don't have it here, does anyone know?

It's neither. Tell them it is an Indmar. You may need to give the folks at Indmar a call to ensure you get the right engine from Jasper. Not the cheapest, but probably the best remanufactured engine on the market.

djkslc
09-11-2011, 05:08 PM
my engine says it's 330 hp, but Jasper claims that their marine 5.7 are 285 hp. I don't want less horsepower.

vision
09-11-2011, 07:14 PM
my engine says it's 330 hp, but Jasper claims that their marine 5.7 are 285 hp. I don't want less horsepower.

Well, the bad news is that you likely did not really have 330 HP originally, despite Indmar's original claim in 2002. More likely around 305-310. But still, more than 285hp.

If you just get a short block (depending on what was damaged), you should have essentially the same motor you had before.

djkslc
09-14-2011, 08:49 PM
I gave the go ahead today for a local shop to pull my engine and order the Jasper 5.7 block and rebuild from there. I am nervous because the jasper people all claim 285 hp from a 5.7, but my 5.7 "claims" 330 hp. Should I worry or are these all just made up numbers?

I am also going to have them replace the damper plate if it is the old style, and change out a common seal in the transmission that apparently goes bad and since it is taken apart I may as well have them make it all new inside.

I am going to bet that I am 7k by the time it is all done. I just want to throw up, but I don't have the tools, time or really the complete knowledge to do the task myself. If I didn't love the boat so much I would try to sell it as is, but since it is paid for and I have it set up exactly how I like I think I will bite the bullet and do it the right way.

It made me so mad to here the engine guys saying that in their 20 years of doing boat motors they have not seen a 5.7 explode like mine did with such low hours. Glad I could be their first.

atlfootr
09-14-2011, 09:01 PM
Glad to see you still have a good sense of humor :D
Best of luck w/ the rebuild ...

Cloaked
09-14-2011, 09:09 PM
Worse case (relatively speaking) is that 285 HP will serve you well in any of your skiing needs.

Ben
09-14-2011, 09:15 PM
I gave the go ahead today for a local shop to pull my engine and order the Jasper 5.7 block and rebuild from there. I am nervous because the jasper people all claim 285 hp from a 5.7, but my 5.7 "claims" 330 hp. Should I worry or are these all just made up numbers?

I am also going to have them replace the damper plate if it is the old style, and change out a common seal in the transmission that apparently goes bad and since it is taken apart I may as well have them make it all new inside.

I am going to bet that I am 7k by the time it is all done. I just want to throw up, but I don't have the tools, time or really the complete knowledge to do the task myself. If I didn't love the boat so much I would try to sell it as is, but since it is paid for and I have it set up exactly how I like I think I will bite the bullet and do it the right way.

It made me so mad to here the engine guys saying that in their 20 years of doing boat motors they have not seen a 5.7 explode like mine did with such low hours. Glad I could be their first.


I feel your pain. Unrelated to boating (and much lower cost), I had my mountain bike frame crack at the center of a weld earlier this year. It is a 2008 I bought used, that was in mint shape. I'm 2nd owner, so frame warranty didn't apply. Every weld engineer and metallurgist I showed the pics to agreed it's a weld defect. Dealer said they get 1 or 2 a year. I drew the short straw I guess. Ended up buying new frame at good discount from manufacturer, but still bummed that I did nothing to use the product out of it's intended use, and it still failed on me...

d2jp
09-14-2011, 09:42 PM
....... but since it is paid for and I have it set up exactly how I like I think I will bite the bullet and do it the right way.......

It does suck that your engine imploded, odds are that with the new one, you're good for a long time now. And, with the unveiling of the $150,000 2012 X-Star, $7000 spent on a nice boat that is paid for and set up how you like isn't so horrible.

d2jp
09-14-2011, 09:43 PM
I feel your pain. Unrelated to boating (and much lower cost), I had my mountain bike frame crack at the center of a weld earlier this year. It is a 2008 I bought used, that was in mint shape. I'm 2nd owner, so frame warranty didn't apply. Every weld engineer and metallurgist I showed the pics to agreed it's a weld defect. Dealer said they get 1 or 2 a year. I drew the short straw I guess. Ended up buying new frame at good discount from manufacturer, but still bummed that I did nothing to use the product out of it's intended use, and it still failed on me...

Bike brand? (sorry for the hijack)

JimN
09-14-2011, 09:53 PM
I gave the go ahead today for a local shop to pull my engine and order the Jasper 5.7 block and rebuild from there. I am nervous because the jasper people all claim 285 hp from a 5.7, but my 5.7 "claims" 330 hp. Should I worry or are these all just made up numbers?

I am also going to have them replace the damper plate if it is the old style, and change out a common seal in the transmission that apparently goes bad and since it is taken apart I may as well have them make it all new inside.

I am going to bet that I am 7k by the time it is all done. I just want to throw up, but I don't have the tools, time or really the complete knowledge to do the task myself. If I didn't love the boat so much I would try to sell it as is, but since it is paid for and I have it set up exactly how I like I think I will bite the bullet and do it the right way.

It made me so mad to here the engine guys saying that in their 20 years of doing boat motors they have not seen a 5.7 explode like mine did with such low hours. Glad I could be their first.

Have the shop verify that your engine has roller lifters and Vortec heads. If they order the non-Vortec and you have the other, your intake manifold won't bolt on. Jasper will need the casting numbers on the rear of the block or on the heads to make sure of shipping the correct engine.

How many hours did they quote for the engine swap?

djkslc
09-14-2011, 10:00 PM
The lifters and rollers are all things that when he pulls the engine he has to call Jasper back with serial numbers so they know exactly what I have so they send the right stuff - cross your fingers.

Hours are a bit in the air with the transmission seal and the damper plate included, but he is thinking around 20 for the full project. In my limited searching around it sounds like 20 is probably a close number.

JimN
09-14-2011, 11:20 PM
The lifters and rollers are all things that when he pulls the engine he has to call Jasper back with serial numbers so they know exactly what I have so they send the right stuff - cross your fingers.

Hours are a bit in the air with the transmission seal and the damper plate included, but he is thinking around 20 for the full project. In my limited searching around it sounds like 20 is probably a close number.

They don't need to do any dis-assembly to find out if it has Vortec heads, etc. The Vortec intake manifold bolts are oriented vertically instead of perpendicular to the mating surface. If it's a Vortec engine, it has roller rockers, lifters, etc.

The engine swap should take about 8 hours.

djkslc
09-24-2011, 02:35 PM
The engine is out and the new jasper block is in process of being rebuilt. The culprit for the failure was found. I don't know the exact name of it, but it sits at the top of the engine under a silver cap and the part inside is brass. I guess its job is to move oil throughout the engine, but the "paddles" that force the movement of oil were worn down in areas thus not moving the proper amount of oil. A 100.00 part that I didn't know existed cause the block to seize.

JimN
09-24-2011, 02:54 PM
The engine is out and the new jasper block is in process of being rebuilt. The culprit for the failure was found. I don't know the exact name of it, but it sits at the top of the engine under a silver cap and the part inside is brass. I guess its job is to move oil throughout the engine, but the "paddles" that force the movement of oil were worn down in areas thus not moving the proper amount of oil. A 100.00 part that I didn't know existed cause the block to seize.

That's the drive gear for the oil pump. If it had a distributor, that would have driven the pump. The "paddles" you referred to are gear teeth and if they're worn away, it's a bronze gear. The one on a distributor is much harder and if the replacement engine comes with a bronze one, replace it with a harder one.

djkslc
09-24-2011, 03:27 PM
He did the harder one in the new build. I am surprised this is the first I am hearing about this drive gear for the oil. Is this a common problem, and wouldn't I have seen a warning?

JimN
09-24-2011, 03:44 PM
He did the harder one in the new build. I am surprised this is the first I am hearing about this drive gear fir the oil. Is this a common problem, and wouldn't I have seen a warning?

Not that common but they may have issued a recall for it. Normally, the oil pump doesn't provide enough resistance to destroy the gear but yours apparently did. That, or the low hours over many years took its toll. I saw a ProStar that lost teeth on the distributor gear and since I wasn't looking specifically for that, it took a while to figure out why the timing jumped around and it backfired. I only looked at the gear after the idiot boat owner told me that it sat for over two years. If he had volunteered that little nugget of information up front, it would have been a much faster diagnosis.

T-Rager
09-24-2011, 04:58 PM
I used to see a related phenomenon "back in the day." In the 60s and 70s, Ford V-8s had a serious problem that caused the oil pump to lock up and shear off the hexagonal oil-pump drive shaft, which couples the distributor to the oil pump. With age and/or neglect, the valve stem seals would harden and crumble, fall into the oil pan and subsequently be ingested into the oil pump through the oil pump pickup. The hardened particles would lodge in the pump gears causing them to bind. The result was not pretty.

JimN
09-24-2011, 08:24 PM
I used to see a related phenomenon "back in the day." In the 60s and 70s, Ford V-8s had a serious problem that caused the oil pump to lock up and shear off the hexagonal oil-pump drive shaft, which couples the distributor to the oil pump. With age and/or neglect, the valve stem seals would harden and crumble, fall into the oil pan and subsequently be ingested into the oil pump through the oil pump pickup. The hardened particles would lodge in the pump gears causing them to bind. The result was not pretty.

And old Fords used a sintered metal impeller in the oil pump, which worked great but it was incredibly brittle. My dad had a '56 T-Bird and the original impeller shaft broke when the engine was being overhauled (the shop doing the work denied it) and the break was very clean but it looked odd, to me- not like regular steel or iron.

rem_pss308
09-26-2011, 08:44 PM
Does anyone have as part number for the harder gear for the LTR motor? Mine is bronse. But I have 1600 hours on it too. so it must be doing the job.

gr82bgreen
09-28-2011, 02:27 PM
That's the drive gear for the oil pump. If it had a distributor, that would have driven the pump. The "paddles" you referred to are gear teeth and if they're worn away, it's a bronze gear. The one on a distributor is much harder and if the replacement engine comes with a bronze one, replace it with a harder one.

This is the down side of designing distributor less igntion in an engine that was built to use a distributor. They had to add a gear to drive the oil pump that was once driven by the dist gear. With the old system if the gear breaks or is worn the dist stops turning and the engine dies, thus no damage to the engine bearings. I have seen this on cars as well. 3.0l Taurus did this also. What should have been done or what I would do if I owned one of these boats would be to add an audible alarm or an ign kill to the engine in the event of a running low oil pressure event. At the very least I would periodically check my gear and install the stronger gear as Jim N suggested.

CantRepeat
09-28-2011, 03:09 PM
That's the drive gear for the oil pump. If it had a distributor, that would have driven the pump. The "paddles" you referred to are gear teeth and if they're worn away, it's a bronze gear. The one on a distributor is much harder and if the replacement engine comes with a bronze one, replace it with a harder one.

I thought the idea for bronze gear drive on the distributor was so it would wear out as opposed to the gear on the cam shaft. I recall back in the day always replacing the steel gears with bronze gears when doing a rebuild. :confused: Especially on expensive roller cams.

djkslc
10-05-2011, 12:30 AM
I got the boat back and I was able to use it Saturday morning. It runs really strong and seems to be every bit as powerful as it was before. I am very pleased with the end result. Jasper was good to work with and I also had some preventative items done like the updated damper plate and a seal in the transmission replaced. I had a SAN dealer do it because they have an engine guy on site. 6,100 was the final bill.

TOO-TALL
10-05-2011, 09:37 PM
Glad to hear your back on the water...

Im in the same boat as you(no pun intended)Pulled the motor out of my 03 x2 with 1008 hrs.Got the motor torn down and headn to the shop tommorow to see if he can save the block.thread motor blown 1008 hrs.
Did your new motor come with a warrenty?

Now I know just what you went threw....god this sucks so bad!!!
The worst part is its going to be 80+ degrees for the next 5 days....AND MY DAMN BOAT IS BROKE!!!!!

djkslc
10-06-2011, 06:55 PM
Waranty from Jasper is 18 months.

Sounds like you are doing a lot of the work yourself - good for you. Hopefully that saves you a decent amount of money.

I hope like crazy you get that thing fixed in time to use it a few more times before winter.

TOO-TALL
10-07-2011, 01:24 PM
Thanks for the reply.I'm tryin to do a lot of my self to save some $ but what a pain in the a$$

wiltok
10-11-2011, 05:14 PM
My 2001 X-9 (predator 310) blew up around 600 hours. Put in remanufact from the local MC dealer - total bill was approx $5,000. Still running strong at 300 hours on 'new' engine.