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View Full Version : Adding fat sacs on top of factory hard tanks


Will.I.am
08-25-2011, 09:07 PM
I know this is an ongoing question, but this seems easy, am I missing something?

Take the out from the factory tank (it goes to the vent on the side of the boat) and add it to the fat sac. The out from the fat sac connect to the vent line that was moved from the previous sentence.

The just of this is the fat sac is added to the vent line. If you cut the vent line and put one end on one side of the fat sac and the other end to the other side of the fat sac - done....

What is wrong with this set up?

The thought is when I want to surf I need to fill all the tanks anyway. If I just want the factory tanks I can just watch or time the fill.

Thoughts?

lawdogg149
08-25-2011, 09:17 PM
wakermakers.com

CantRepeat
08-25-2011, 09:20 PM
Which year and model of MC do you have? I've seen it done two different ways depending on how your hard tanks are install in your boat.

Will.I.am
08-25-2011, 11:31 PM
I have a 2011 - have 3 independent motors to fill / drain each tank. 2 rear and 1 mid.

Wakemakers does not show this install. They do have lots of parts (I have ordered some). They want you to do an independent system for each tank.

vision
08-26-2011, 07:43 AM
A couple of potential issues:

1. Ballast timers. When you order plug-n-play ballast I believe they are removed. But with std ballast pump relays, they have a time limit on filling and emptying and therefore may not fill your sacs completely. Not sure if this changed in 2011 or not.

2. Incomplete emptying. When you go to empty, the sacs will indeed empty but then collapse creating a vacuum and preventing emptying of the down stream tanks. Some folks place PVC or other space occupying structures in the sacs to maintain a pathway between the vent and the fill/drain port.

Will.I.am
08-26-2011, 08:27 AM
Mine does not have ballast timers - they are all manual. I turn them on and wait to see the water coming out the side vent.

I have also read about some venting problems. I thought I may try my approach first. If there are issues, I was going to put in a tube like you suggest. Then I thought about adding "T" at the line going from the hard to the fat sac and raise the end to a high point (higher than the drain hole on the side).

Again, my approach was to keep it simple.

pjm14945
08-29-2011, 11:14 AM
I installed similar Fly High sac system into my 2007 X2. The recommended way was to install the complete system that comes with valves and new vent lines. This means drilling 3 holes into your hull to have 3 vent lines for your soft sacs. The pumps then run to your valves, that direct the pump to fill/empty either your hard or soft tanks. Each tank then runs independently with the ability to fill/empty either tank.

The problem can come with the relay/timers (Active Intelligence modules). You need to set the timer high enough to be able to full both hard and soft tanks. The default was 6 min set (10 min max) for the 07 models. I had to upgrade my timer/relays to the max 20 min timers which should be stock by now.

The challenge is then emptying both tanks without detecting air. I'm not sure how your 2011 relay/timer works, but the 07 model will shut off if you detect air (in first tank). Then you have to cycle to empty second tank.

-Pete

TxsRiverRat
08-29-2011, 11:22 AM
All I saw on the title of the thread before opening it was "Adding fat sacs on top..."

and i thought we were going to have breast implant talk...

I guess we know where my mind is today :D :D :D :D

Will.I.am
08-29-2011, 12:45 PM
Granted I'm not a drawing expert, but here is my drawing. The reason I'm leaning this way is that the vent line to the factory hard tank is always available.

I don't intend to use the fat sacs everyday, but this way I can isolate them and/or use them as needed. I only have to cut the factory vent line once to make this install.

Again, seems simple enough. Any other thoughts? Has anyone else done this? I intend to do this Wednesday this week. Thought I would do one side first and see how it goes.

CantRepeat
08-29-2011, 01:14 PM
This is what I did before I put in a 4th pump.

jwardenjr
08-29-2011, 01:22 PM
This is what I did before I put in a 4th pump.

Question ... Why the second Vent ? how does that 3 way valve work

Will.I.am
08-29-2011, 01:32 PM
Thanks for the pic. Couple of questions:

* why did you not tie the two vent lines together?
* Where did you get the 3 way valve - the one's that I have seen are very expensive.
* did this system work?

CantRepeat
08-29-2011, 01:33 PM
Question ... Why the second Vent ? how does that 3 way valve work

If the vent lines run together the water could just overflow into the sac when you are trying to just use the hard tank.


The valve has one in and two outs. If you have it set to go to the vent then just the hard tank fills. If you have it set to goto the sac then once the hard tank fills it will overflow to the sac.

The way I kept the sac from collapsing on itself was just to keep the vent line short enough to keep the sac from falling down.

I still use the valve in my new set up. I plumb the valve so I can switch my starboard pump from the starboard hard tank to the surf sac.

CantRepeat
08-29-2011, 01:36 PM
Thanks for the pic. Couple of questions:

* why did you not tie the two vent lines together?
* Where did you get the 3 way valve - the one's that I have seen are very expensive.
* did this system work?

It work very well.

There are two types of 3way valves. One is $120 and the other like $39. Both are listed on wakemakers.com. I went with the $120 model.

With the way I did it, you didn't need a second valve, just had to add another vent.

Will.I.am
08-29-2011, 01:42 PM
About the three-way, that is why I was putting the shut-off valves at each end of the fat sac. This way - when they are open - all water is diverted to the fat sacs until they are full - then it overflows through the vent - likewise when draining. Then I can shut off both valves and not worry about the vent line coming back into the fat sac. Again, our drawings are almost identical, but I would rather T into the vent line than drill a new hole.

I will take your advice about making the vent line short to hold up the back of the fat sac.

Thanks for the input.

CantRepeat
08-29-2011, 01:45 PM
About the three-way, that is why I was putting the shut-off valves at each end of the fat sac. This way - when they are open - all water is diverted to the fat sacs until they are full - then it overflows through the vent - likewise when draining. Then I can shut off both valves and not worry about the vent line coming back into the fat sac. Again, our drawings are almost identical, but I would rather T into the vent line than drill a new hole.

I will take your advice about making the vent line short to hold up the back of the fat sac.

Thanks for the input.

Right on. Good luck and let us know how it works out for you.

jwardenjr
08-29-2011, 02:02 PM
If the vent lines run together the water could just overflow into the sac when you are trying to just use the hard tank.


The valve has one in and two outs. If you have it set to go to the vent then just the hard tank fills. If you have it set to goto the sac then once the hard tank fills it will overflow to the sac.

The way I kept the sac from collapsing on itself was just to keep the vent line short enough to keep the sac from falling down.

I still use the valve in my new set up. I plumb the valve so I can switch my starboard pump from the starboard hard tank to the surf sac.

Makes sense ... Thanks

Jeff d
08-30-2011, 08:25 PM
With the 3 way valves you could combine the vents by putting a check valve on the sac's leg of the vent line.

Personally I'd either rip out the hard tanks and get bigger sacs or just do the simple cut into the overflow/vent method. I know several people with them spliced into the vents and it works fine.

Either way I'd remove the timers and replace them with simple relays like the '06 and older models had. The timers are more trouble than they're worth.

b33nine
09-02-2011, 08:22 PM
This is what I did before I put in a 4th pump.

Me and a buddy have been discussing installing a 4th pump to take some stress of the kgb/plumbed in pwt sacs up front. Do you have documentation at all of how the process went for installing the 4th pump? Did you have to drill a hole in the boat or did you just tee off of an existing line somewhere?

Thanks!

Jeff d
09-02-2011, 08:44 PM
Me and a buddy have been discussing installing a 4th pump to take some stress of the kgb/plumbed in pwt sacs up front. Do you have documentation at all of how the process went for installing the 4th pump? Did you have to drill a hole in the boat or did you just tee off of an existing line somewhere?

Thanks!


CantRepeat did a great writeup here on a factory quality 4th pump install:
http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=40934

b33nine
09-03-2011, 01:56 AM
Sadly it seems he never filled in the information I'm actually after. Also I'm hoping to help speed up filling up the KGB tank fill time which will in turn help fill my front bags, where he's filling a completely separate bag that's being used for just surfing.

I probably need to start my own thread to ask my specific question, but I'm still not sure I've got my head wrapped around it myself.

CantRepeat
09-03-2011, 07:33 AM
Sadly it seems he never filled in the information I'm actually after. Also I'm hoping to help speed up filling up the KGB tank fill time which will in turn help fill my front bags, where he's filling a completely separate bag that's being used for just surfing.

I probably need to start my own thread to ask my specific question, but I'm still not sure I've got my head wrapped around it myself.

Instead of using the overflow from the KGB filled by two pumps to fill the front sac, just add a 4th pump to fill your front sac?

I don't think you could flow twice as much through a 1 inch line just by adding another pump.

b33nine
09-03-2011, 03:47 PM
Well, what I'm really trying to alleviate is having that KGB tank take twice as long as everything else. I don't trust the gauges, so I can only really know it's full when the front bags start filling.

Ideally I'd like to get twice as much water to the KGB so the whole thing fills up/drains twice as fast as it does now, but doing that seems really complicated to me still just yet.

Jeff d
09-03-2011, 04:34 PM
Well, what I'm really trying to alleviate is having that KGB tank take twice as long as everything else. I don't trust the gauges, so I can only really know it's full when the front bags start filling.

Ideally I'd like to get twice as much water to the KGB so the whole thing fills up/drains twice as fast as it does now, but doing that seems really complicated to me still just yet.

Sounds like you might have a restriction in the fill/drain or vent line.

If you put the KGB vent line back to the stock configuration and feed the bow sac with the new 4th pump you will still know when the KGB is full because it will shoot out of the vent just like it did before you added the bow sac. Run a new thru hull and vent for your bow sac. The end result will be faster filling of the front because you will simultanously be filling the tank and the sac rather than filling them in series like you are now.

Will.I.am
09-15-2011, 09:32 PM
OK, so here is how the final product came out. When I got into it there were a few changes from the original drawing above. Main difference is that where the main line enters the factory tanks is easily accessible, so I spliced (T'ed) that line ran it to a valve - then to the bottom fat sac.

Then, I spliced (T'ed) the vent line and ran that line to a valve - then to the top of the front fat sac connection.

So with both valve closed - the system works as originally installed bypassing the fat sacs. With both valves open - it fills the factory tanks, then starts on the fat sacs.

All works good.

One thing to note is when emptying the fat sacs - when the sac is empty, you must turn the lower valve or it will not empty the factory tank.

Also, the pumps are on timers. You have to cycle the switch 3 or 4 times to completely fill the factory and fat sac tanks.

I find to surf on the x-15: Fill the KGB and port tanks, fill the port fat sac full (400lbs). Then fill the starboard hard tank as needed (if you have a lot of passengers you don't need to fill this tank, if you only have 1 passenger - you may need some additional weight). We were surfing!!

Will.I.am
09-15-2011, 09:35 PM
I might add, at first attempt, we filled everything - all 3 factory tanks and both 400lbs fat sacs. We had the back sank above the two silver loops above the ski deck. The ski deck was actually dragging in the water making the wake REALLY dirty.

That is where we actually found the wake better with one of the rear sides completely empty (both tanks empty - factory and fat sacs).

Will.I.am
09-16-2011, 10:18 AM
OK,

Here is how the install ended up. As stated the main change is splicing the T at the intake of the factory tank instead of at the vent.

All in all about $110 (including the fat sac quick disconnect connections). 4 t's, 4 valves, 4 fat sac quick disconnects, lots of hose clamps, and about 8 ft of 1 inch hose, and an hour of time.

I recommend to get the more flexible 1 inch hose that is clear - nice to see the movement of water.

CantRepeat
09-16-2011, 10:37 AM
I see how with both valves closed you would only fill the hard tanks. Do you open both valves to fill the tank and sac? If that is the case it would seem like the water would take the path of least resistance and you'd have trouble filling the sac. It would also seem that gravity would push the water from the sac back into the hard tank and then out the vent.

Just looking at the design it doesn't seem like its going to work that well, but I could be wrong.

Will.I.am
09-16-2011, 11:16 PM
Right, my intention was to have the fat sacs fill after the factory tanks. I want pressure to be on the factory tanks so that when I drain, it does drain to the factory tanks.

Keep in mind that as you state, water takes the path of least resistance, but also your full level must be lower than your vent out level.

In other words, it will continue to fill until the fat sac level is either over the vent out level or the sac is full.

It is one thing to consider, the vent line should not be ran high to the fat sac, but rather ran low with the top most point being at or above the vent out level. If you run the line high - it will push out the vent line like you state.

My original thought was to use the back fat sac connection as the vent, and I ran the line from the T at the vent up and down the side of the boat to the back of the fat sac. This did cause the vent to overflow before the tank was full. I moved that vent to go from the vent T to the ground to the front of the fat sac. This solved all the issues.

Will

CantRepeat
09-18-2011, 09:34 AM
You are correct. I do not know why I thought it would push water back into the hard tank and then out the vent. It would only push it out the vent to the point that the sac and vent are at the same level.

Let me know how it works for you.

Will.I.am
09-19-2011, 12:23 AM
It all works great!! Luckily the vent line worked out and that was the biggest change from the original picture to the last one I posted.

venetrex
10-04-2011, 07:44 AM
I have a 2007 X2 with the fly highs plumbed in the vents for the hard tanks. I NEVER have any draining problems. Only the KGB needs the boat to be moving to empty the hard tank. BOW needs to be in the air. I had to install 20 minute timers. Mine was plumbed similar to how your is originally. Nothing would ever empty correctly. Now 9 minutes to fill stock plus fly high and it works perfectly.

stt
10-04-2011, 08:46 AM
How hard was it to install the timers? I think I may have to do that over the winter.

Will.I.am
10-28-2011, 10:44 AM
Does anyone know about how to modify the timers. On my tanks, I do cycle the switches 2 or 3 time. Not a big deal, but if it is not a big deal, I would like to extend the timers a bit.

Will.I.am
10-28-2011, 11:07 AM
Just an FYI here - we did have luck with this setup and operation. I just have to cycle the switches 2 or three times when filling. I do have the quick disconnects for the fat sacs. As stated above if I fill everything up (3 factory and 2 fat sacks in back) it drags the back platform. We would fill the KGB and hard and fat sac on one side and had good success.

However, I think it would be even better if I could move the fat sac I'm not using up to the nose. So now I am going to look at splicing the KGB tank and adding a fat sac to the front nose storage compartment. This should help bring down my nose - keeping the ski platform higher out of the water - with more weight overall. I would speculate that my sweet spot would be REALLY big.

With the quick disconnects on the fat sacs - it should be real easy to move around the fat sacs. I can't say I'll use the fat sacs for anything else but surfing anyhow. On the X-15 I would speculate it would be easier to do on the drivers side (boat is not close by).

Regretfully, I will not be able to report on on the outcome till next year!!

Will.I.am
11-14-2011, 03:55 PM
Here are some pics of me installing the front fat sac.

Will

Will.I.am
11-14-2011, 03:59 PM
Here are a few more.

Will

Will.I.am
11-01-2012, 08:55 AM
This system works great, just have to find a balance point when we are carrying lots of passengers. Anyone else attempt to install a system?

XStar08
11-02-2012, 04:26 PM
Sorry, wrong thread