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TayMC197
06-14-2011, 03:02 PM
Okay a recent thread has peaked my curiousity. The 01-02 197/190 hulls... how is it different from the later years? How is the wake on the 02 hulls? Curious becuase I just purchased an 02 TT 197...

jamisonsbrodie
06-14-2011, 03:29 PM
IIRC, 02 197 TT was the first to have the hook. It was added to lift the back of the boat to reduce the wake size. I believe it became standard on all 197's in 03. You are golden if you have an 02 TT, because it should have the hook. A tunable rudder was also added somewhere in there as well.

east tx skier
06-14-2011, 03:31 PM
Since it is Tournament Team boat, then it has the hook like the 2003 and newer 197. There was no 2001 197 IIRC. The 2002 non TT boat had the foiled rudder like the era of 190 before it. More top end, but didn't steer quite so well.

Updated the rudder in 2006. Not tunable. Just rounded instead of the wedge shape you have. You could buy either the team rudder (with the filed edge) or standard (without filed edge). I have also heard that they supposedly took a couple of hundred lbs out of the bow in 2007 or 2008 (unverified). New strut in 2011.

Long story short, you have pretty much the same boat hullwise.

MIskier
06-14-2011, 03:36 PM
You will be good to go with the 02 tt boat, if it didnt have the hook then you would end up with a much harder wake and a somewhat larger rooster tail, and as trex said slightly different handeling charicteristics. The boats with no hook do get serval mph more top end, freedy kruger has the hook ground out of his boats to get better acceleration for jumping, but it is something you would prefer to have for slalom.

TayMC197
06-14-2011, 04:07 PM
Thanks for the info guys... I feel a little safer about my purchase now..

onejdgreen
06-14-2011, 04:53 PM
I love my 02 197TT! Got to see pictures of yours!!

Ski-me
06-14-2011, 05:45 PM
Congrats on the new boat. Did you end up selling your old one? Pics of the new one?

TayMC197
06-14-2011, 06:52 PM
Congrats on the new boat. Did you end up selling your old one? Pics of the new one?

Yes, I sold my old one to SkiDog and I will take pictures of my new one when I pick it up... I'm scheduled to deliver my old one july 1st and pick up my new one july4th... I'm pretty excited..

TayMC197
06-14-2011, 06:57 PM
here are a few pics the seller sent to me..

DemolitionMan
06-14-2011, 07:06 PM
Looks great!!!!! Better put a bimini top on that new one.

east tx skier
06-14-2011, 07:13 PM
Is that boat on Lake Austin?

DooSPX
06-14-2011, 07:30 PM
I would really love to have a blue 02 TT. I really love the black frame... the new silver does nothing for me.

Jim@BAWS
06-14-2011, 07:57 PM
I would really love to have a blue 02 TT. I really love the black frame... the new silver does nothing for me.

You should have reacted...you missed mine

Jim@BAWS

DooSPX
06-14-2011, 08:31 PM
lol...

Hey Jim, a slight thread jack, but the guy who bought the red/white/blue 190 w/ stars on the sides and the bow and the 8.1L... did the boat end up in Sarasota? I was up there visiting my g/f's parents and I saw a boat just like it with a HUGE engine cover and a taller pylon?

JohnE
06-14-2011, 09:33 PM
As I understand it, the early evo 190/197's had a symmetrical hull which would result in chine lock under certain conditions. I don't know when the problem was resolved. This is not well known, but does come up from time to time in various forums. I believe the 02 had this symmetrical hull.

JohnE
06-14-2011, 09:34 PM
Okay a recent thread has peaked my curiousity. The 01-02 197/190 hulls... how is it different from the later years? How is the wake on the 02 hulls? Curious becuase I just purchased an 02 TT 197...

Which recent thread?

DooSPX
06-14-2011, 09:44 PM
But isnt the TT hull the same as the 03+ hulls John?

JohnE
06-14-2011, 09:52 PM
But isnt the TT hull the same as the 03+ hulls John?

Might be, I'm really not sure. The change was slight enough so it probably is not well known or documented. May even only be on the 01 hull. Not sure who to ask these days.

JohnE
06-14-2011, 09:53 PM
When I was talking to a factory rep at the boat show who has been with MC since late 90
s he hadn't even heard of the 'problem'.

Jorski
06-14-2011, 09:54 PM
Niiiice!!!!!!!!

trickskier
06-14-2011, 09:57 PM
Great looking TT - Congratulations Taylor!

MIskier
06-14-2011, 11:30 PM
As I understand it, the early evo 190/197's had a symmetrical hull which would result in chine lock under certain conditions. I don't know when the problem was resolved. This is not well known, but does come up from time to time in various forums. I believe the 02 had this symmetrical hull.

'02 TT's had the hook the non TT 01/02 evo hulls do not have a factory hook in the hull

konaking
06-14-2011, 11:52 PM
I was looking at that one online. Nice choice

DemolitionMan
06-15-2011, 12:10 AM
Are you bringing the boat to Georgia?

Jim@BAWS
06-15-2011, 08:09 AM
lol...

Hey Jim, a slight thread jack, but the guy who bought the red/white/blue 190 w/ stars on the sides and the bow and the 8.1L... did the boat end up in Sarasota? I was up there visiting my g/f's parents and I saw a boat just like it with a HUGE engine cover and a taller pylon?


It is down there...A REAL BEAST For sure

But isnt the TT hull the same as the 03+ hulls John?

2002 TT boats are the same as current 197 hulls. Only TT members recieved them in 2002

So you are correct

Jim@BAWS

SkiDog
06-15-2011, 09:07 AM
Are you bringing the boat to Georgia?

He better be!

DooSPX
06-15-2011, 09:31 AM
It is down there...A REAL BEAST For sure



2002 TT boats are the same as current 197 hulls. Only TT members recieved them in 2002

So you are correct

Jim@BAWS

Thanks Jim.I thought it was it. Its the only one I have every seen in that gel with all the stars on the bow and sides. not to mention, its also pretty rare to see a L18 powered prostar. where do they use it in Sarasota, around Siesta Key? Not in the ocean I hope?

JohnE
06-15-2011, 10:38 AM
'02 TT's had the hook the non TT 01/02 evo hulls do not have a factory hook in the hull

When did the hull go from symmetrical to asymmetrical design? Can you elaborate on the chine lock phenomenon? It was explained years ago but I'm fuzzy on the details.

Jorski
06-15-2011, 11:04 AM
When did the hull go from symmetrical to asymmetrical design? Can you elaborate on the chine lock phenomenon? It was explained years ago but I'm fuzzy on the details.

The hook doesn't make the hull asymetrical... it runs side to side along the trailing edge of the bottom of the boat.

The chine lock issue wasn't with this hull.

east tx skier
06-15-2011, 11:51 AM
The hook doesn't make the hull asymetrical... it runs side to side along the trailing edge of the bottom of the boat.

The chine lock issue wasn't with this hull.

I don't know of any boat that is 100% immune from chine lock/chine walking under the right conditions, i.e., shallow water, weight in the bow, hole shot into a turn. But true, that the EVO hull was not the "infamous" hull.

There was a thread some years ago about a post 2003 chine walking a bit. That's not to say it is prone to it. But it can happen.

JohnE
06-15-2011, 01:12 PM
The hook doesn't make the hull asymetrical... it runs side to side along the trailing edge of the bottom of the boat.

The chine lock issue wasn't with this hull.

I realize that chine lock is not from the hook and that the hook does not make the hull asymmetrical. I want to know when the hull became asymmetrical

Jorski
06-15-2011, 01:47 PM
Hmm...don't know of a power boat with an asymmetrical hull??? I know that they use it in some racing sail boats.

Would be interested to learn about how that was/could be used in a ski boat...


I believe that the chine lock, was a result of several factors but was in large part due to the positive pressure rudder system (which had a wing on it) creating too much stern lift at the wrong time.

MIskier
06-15-2011, 04:12 PM
When did the hull go from symmetrical to asymmetrical design? Can you elaborate on the chine lock phenomenon? It was explained years ago but I'm fuzzy on the details.

The hull has always been asymetric, by def. a asymetric hull is one that is narrower at the front, than at the back. A symmetric hull would be something shaped like a canoe or kayak. I think that the very first evo hulls were slightly modified 98-00 hull design but im not sure, and that hull did have issue. Eastie is correct that any boat can be made to chine walk and chine lock given the right conditions and driver.

onejdgreen
06-15-2011, 05:21 PM
Looks almost identical to mine... You'll love it!

JohnE
06-15-2011, 09:06 PM
The hull has always been asymetric, by def. a asymetric hull is one that is narrower at the front, than at the back. A symmetric hull would be something shaped like a canoe or kayak. I think that the very first evo hulls were slightly modified 98-00 hull design but im not sure, and that hull did have issue. Eastie is correct that any boat can be made to chine walk and chine lock given the right conditions and driver.

That is not how it was explained to me. It had something to do with slicing it down the middle so to speak along the keel. That the profiles of each side match if it is a symmetrical design, and slightly differ if asymmetrical. (Possibly the terminology was not used in proper context as the person explaining it was simply trying to help me understand it, but I am clear on what he was describing) And if they did match and were symmetrical then under certain circumstances the effects of the rudder could not overcome the equal pressures and the boat would not turn at slalom speed. This is my cryptic explanation, it was explained in much better fashion to me years ago. I can gaurantee you that the hull has not always been identical, it was once symmetrical, and now is asymmetrical. This was explained by a friend who worked as a consultant to Nautique in the mid to late 90's and then from 99 on worked for MC. The early evo hulls are known to have had the chine lock issue, and at least one well known person in the industry ran one aground and finally became a believer. At which point mc researched and rectified the issue. It's been recounted here and on other forums. I really don't want to argue whether or not it existed, I'm more interested in completely understanding it simply for curiosity sake. Maybe you can ask your professor next semester.

MIskier
06-16-2011, 10:26 AM
That is not how it was explained to me. It had something to do with slicing it down the middle so to speak along the keel. That the profiles of each side match if it is a symmetrical design, and slightly differ if asymmetrical. (Possibly the terminology was not used in proper context as the person explaining it was simply trying to help me understand it, but I am clear on what he was describing) And if they did match and were symmetrical then under certain circumstances the effects of the rudder could not overcome the equal pressures and the boat would not turn at slalom speed. This is my cryptic explanation, it was explained in much better fashion to me years ago. I can gaurantee you that the hull has not always been identical, it was once symmetrical, and now is asymmetrical. This was explained by a friend who worked as a consultant to Nautique in the mid to late 90's and then from 99 on worked for MC. The early evo hulls are known to have had the chine lock issue, and at least one well known person in the industry ran one aground and finally became a believer. At which point mc researched and rectified the issue. It's been recounted here and on other forums. I really don't want to argue whether or not it existed, I'm more interested in completely understanding it simply for curiosity sake. Maybe you can ask your professor next semester.

I think the one that ran aground was the 98-00 model, but that is beside the point. The only way that I can see the boat having problems is if the original evo hull had the rudder located on centerline which may have caused problems with the rudder being able to generate enough lift to overcome the side forces of the hull. An inboard hull had better be symmetrical in ever yother way besides this.

JohnE
06-16-2011, 01:09 PM
More than one was run aground, and I know for sure one was an evo hull. It's not beside the point, it is the point. There was some correction in the evo hull to solve a problem.

I can't and won't discuss the rest of the details about who ran it aground and where, but it is not a secret. It's talked about on other forums. And I heard it from a friend with first hand knowledge of the event. Not a big deal, but they did change and improve the evo hull.

TRBenj
06-16-2011, 01:16 PM
I think the one that ran aground was the 98-00 model, but that is beside the point. The only way that I can see the boat having problems is if the original evo hull had the rudder located on centerline which may have caused problems with the rudder being able to generate enough lift to overcome the side forces of the hull. An inboard hull had better be symmetrical in ever yother way besides this.
I have no idea how other manufacturers build their hulls, but Ski Nautique hulls have not been symmetrical (side to side) dating back to 1982. The differences are small and difficult (if not impossible) to detect with the naked eye. The intention is to make the hulls run properly, taking the rotation of the propeller, weight of the driver, etc, into account.

sand2snow22
06-16-2011, 01:23 PM
I have no idea how other manufacturers build their hulls, but Ski Nautique hulls have not been symmetrical (side to side) dating back to 1982. The differences are small and difficult (if not impossible) to detect with the naked eye. The intention is to make the hulls run properly, taking the rotation of the propeller, weight of the driver, etc, into account.

Didn't they design the nautiques with a different rotation so when you drove without a spotter the boat would run a little flatter? Could be wrong, they might still do this?

MIskier
06-16-2011, 01:25 PM
More than one was run aground, and I know for sure one was an evo hull. It's not beside the point, it is the point. There was some correction in the evo hull to solve a problem.

I can't and won't discuss the rest of the details about who ran it aground and where, but it is not a secret. It's talked about on other forums. And I heard it from a friend with first hand knowledge of the event. Not a big deal, but they did change and improve the evo hull.

Like I said I had only heard of the 98-00 hull being run aground, Im not saying an evo hull didnt I just have never heard that story.

The change would have been to move the rudder off of centerline to allow it to generate more lift.

MIskier
06-16-2011, 01:25 PM
Didn't they design the nautiques with a different rotation so when you drove without a spotter the boat would run a little flatter? Could be wrong, they might still do this?

Yeah nautique does still rotate opposite from a Mastercraft

JohnE
06-16-2011, 01:31 PM
Like I said I had only heard of the 98-00 hull being run aground, Im not saying an evo hull didnt I just have never heard that story.

The change would have been to move the rudder off of centerline to allow it to generate more lift.

Yea, it's not a story that's told often, but I've read it on various sites and seen reference here. But as TRBenj said above, the 2 sides of the hull are not identical. I don't argue that they moved the rudder placement as well....I don't have any knowledge one way or another.

JohnE
06-16-2011, 01:32 PM
Yeah nautique does still rotate opposite from a Mastercraft

Though there were some reverse rotation XStars.....which also were prone to chine lock. I have no idea why they chose to try that rotation.

MIskier
06-16-2011, 01:39 PM
Though there were some reverse rotation XStars.....which also were prone to chine lock. I have no idea why they chose to try that rotation.

That boat went through a lot of design iterations I know they even tested one with two shafts driven off a chain drive transmission. No idea what happened to that hull though

JohnE
06-16-2011, 01:43 PM
I've just realized that the 'problem' hull I was referrring to was only on early production evo 190's. I searched my emails because the topic had come up a while back.

MIskier
06-16-2011, 01:56 PM
Gottcha, that may very well have been a boat built off of the previous hull with modifications or something to that effect idk.

oops misread your post as pre production

TRBenj
06-16-2011, 02:36 PM
Yeah nautique does still rotate opposite from a Mastercraft
Yup, my '90 SN rides perfectly level at skiing speeds with just the driver aboard.

DemolitionMan
06-16-2011, 04:13 PM
That boat went through a lot of design iterations I know they even tested one with two shafts driven off a chain drive transmission. No idea what happened to that hull though

They got that idea from a guy in Michigan I believe. He brought his 190 to the 35th anniversary reunion that he had converted.

MIskier
06-16-2011, 06:06 PM
They got that idea from a guy in Michigan I believe. He brought his 190 to the 35th anniversary reunion that he had converted.

That is the first non-photo shopped looking pic I have seen of that boat.

DemolitionMan
06-16-2011, 06:59 PM
That is the first non-photo shopped looking pic I have seen of that boat.

I believe he set a world record that day for the most skiers pulled.

DemolitionMan
06-17-2011, 09:31 AM
That is the first non-photo shopped looking pic I have seen of that boat.

That's because it was not photo shopped.

DemolitionMan
06-22-2011, 02:24 PM
Taylor does thw new boat have a single or tandem trailer?

03 35th Anniversary
06-22-2011, 02:52 PM
here are a few pics the seller sent to me..

That looks like the one I seen on Tim Ford Lake in TN.