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View Full Version : Rotor Turned 180 degrees at 10 btdc


TonyB
06-05-2011, 01:42 PM
Why would that be? If I remove the EI module, and reluctor/breaker plate assembly and reverse it, the engine will not start. When I put it back 180 degrees out of phase it runs but not well and not at 10deg btdc.

Ford 351 Indmar in 91 Prostar 190.

JimN
06-05-2011, 02:33 PM
Why would that be? If I remove the EI module, and reluctor/breaker plate assembly and reverse it, the engine will not start. When I put it back 180 degrees out of phase it runs but not well and not at 10deg btdc.

Ford 351 Indmar in 91 Prostar 190.

If the reluctor i s rotated, it's no longer at TDC for the #1 cylinder, which is the one you would use to set the timing.

By "out of phase", do you mean you reversed the wires? You can't do that- this is a DC circuit and if it has any caps, transistors or diodes (or any other semiconductors), you may have ruined it.

TonyB
06-05-2011, 03:59 PM
Let me rephrase it. When the timing marks on the harmonic balancer indicate 10deg btdc the rotor is pointed directly away from where the #1wire on the distributor is located.

In the photo below, wire #1 is positioned where the tail of the rotor is located. The contact is positioned at #5. The timing marks are at 10deg btdc.

JLeuck64
06-05-2011, 07:00 PM
Your at top dead center for the companion cylinder.
1-8-4-5-6-2-7-3

Crank goes around twice for every single revolution of the camshaft...and distributor. ( ;

JimN
06-05-2011, 08:03 PM
Let me rephrase it. When the timing marks on the harmonic balancer indicate 10deg btdc the rotor is pointed directly away from where the #1wire on the distributor is located.

In the photo below, wire #1 is positioned where the tail of the rotor is located. The contact is positioned at #5. The timing marks are at 10deg btdc.

Did you recently remove the distributor? It can go in correctly or 180 degrees off because the distributor shaft is kind of like a slotted screwdriver tip, unlike a GM shaft, which is a hex end.

ahhudgins
06-05-2011, 08:43 PM
Let me rephrase it. When the timing marks on the harmonic balancer indicate 10deg btdc the rotor is pointed directly away from where the #1wire on the distributor is located.

In the photo below, wire #1 is positioned where the tail of the rotor is located. The contact is positioned at #5. The timing marks are at 10deg btdc.

You also need to make sure your #1 piston is on the compression stroke and not the exhaust stroke when you install the distributoer. Remove the #1 spark plug and put your finger over the hole (or compression gauge) and check for compression while you crank the engine over or crank by hand. When you are sure you are on the compression stroke, then install the distributor with the rotor pointing to the #1 position.

TonyB
06-05-2011, 10:02 PM
Did you recently remove the distributor? It can go in correctly or 180 degrees off because the distributor shaft is kind of like a slotted screwdriver tip, unlike a GM shaft, which is a hex end.
The distributor has not been removed since I've owned it.

Out of frustration of not being able to fix it, I've recently sent it to a nearby correct craft dealer. Got it back with the invoice saying they adjusted timing, took to the lake for additional timing correction where it was "locked down" and had "Good hole shot and top end".

Tickled to death that it was fixed, I took it to the lake with the kids and was unable to get it to even back off the trailer. They didn't fix sh*t. It would idle but it would not go.

Adjusted the timing myself and could at least get it up on a plane with timing set around 18 deg btdc but you have to nurse the throttle to get it to plane.

While the weights and springs are clear and work there is practically no advance on the timing with increased throttle. Idle is good at 10 degrees but will not get out of neutral. Higher advance at idle allows me to nurse it up speed but with no power at all.

This all started last summer when during a lunch stop the idle went to crap. Idle was rough but cleaned up around 2000 rpms.

Now everything about it sucks.

JimN
06-05-2011, 11:01 PM
The distributor has not been removed since I've owned it.

Out of frustration of not being able to fix it, I've recently sent it to a nearby correct craft dealer. Got it back with the invoice saying they adjusted timing, took to the lake for additional timing correction where it was "locked down" and had "Good hole shot and top end".

Tickled to death that it was fixed, I took it to the lake with the kids and was unable to get it to even back off the trailer. They didn't fix sh*t. It would idle but it would not go.

Adjusted the timing myself and could at least get it up on a plane with timing set around 18 deg btdc but you have to nurse the throttle to get it to plane.

While the weights and springs are clear and work there is practically no advance on the timing with increased throttle. Idle is good at 10 degrees but will not get out of neutral. Higher advance at idle allows me to nurse it up speed but with no power at all.

This all started last summer when during a lunch stop the idle went to crap. Idle was rough but cleaned up around 2000 rpms.

Now everything about it sucks.

Check for binding in the choke plate. I worked on one that was fine one minute and wouldn't idle to save its life the next. Turned out that the pivots for the choke plate were worn and sloppy.

TonyB
06-05-2011, 11:23 PM
Yep, they're fine.

JLeuck64
06-06-2011, 02:19 AM
http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=41279

Ok after reading through your other post about timing I believe you have a broken spring in the distributor. Here us why I believe this, You said originally it was back firing and You had to retard the the timing correct? This suggests that the smaller of the two advance springs has broken and also why you aren't getting very much advance currently. The bigger of the two advance springs only controls advance at the upper end of the rpm range, so you wont see much change. It would also explain why it is hard to check the advance springs manually by twisting the rotor with your fingers. Pull the breaker plate off and look at the condition of the springs and centrifugal weights...

TonyB
06-06-2011, 07:29 AM
http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=41279

Ok after reading through your other post about timing I believe you have a broken spring in the distributor. Here us why I believe this, You said originally it was back firing and You had to retard the the timing correct? This suggests that the smaller of the two advance springs has broken and also why you aren't getting very much advance currently. The bigger of the two advance springs only controls advance at the upper end of the rpm range, so you wont see much change. It would also explain why it is hard to check the advance springs manually by twisting the rotor with your fingers. Pull the breaker plate off and look at the condition of the springs and centrifugal weights...

Yes, I've done that. They are fine.

At 10 deg btdc it backfires through the carb and squats and dies when put into gear. If I advance the timing to something closer to 20 degrees btdc I can at least get it to move.

At the end of last year it was acting as if it had a vacuum leak. Sprayed nearly a can of carb cleaner looking for one and never found it but I never did a vacuum test either.

This spring I rebuilt the carb.

When I cranked the engine for the first time this summer I did two things: Started it with a rebuilt carb and immediately checked and adjusted the timing.

The timing had been set at something over 20 degrees (last years timing) and I presumed was part of the problem. I IMMEDIATELY retarded the timing to 10 deg btdc.

Shortly thereafter I took it to the river and the backfiring and squatting and dying and hair pulling commenced. Since then, I've been all over the place with the timing trying to find something that works and it's definitely not 10deg btdc although it does idle nicely (app 650 rpm) at that timing.

Jerseydave
06-06-2011, 07:44 AM
Assuming you have the plug wires in the correct firing order, backfire through the carb and needing to over-advance the timing could be signs of a very worn timing chain or worn camshaft. Turn the crank by hand (breaker bar) while watching the dist rotor....they should both move together....if there is excess movement of the crank and the rotor just sits there, you need a new timing chain and gear set.

How many hours on the engine?

ahhudgins
06-06-2011, 08:35 AM
The distributor has not been removed since I've owned it.

Out of frustration of not being able to fix it, I've recently sent it to a nearby correct craft dealer. Got it back with the invoice saying they adjusted timing, took to the lake for additional timing correction where it was "locked down" and had "Good hole shot and top end".

Tickled to death that it was fixed, I took it to the lake with the kids and was unable to get it to even back off the trailer. They didn't fix sh*t. It would idle but it would not go.

Adjusted the timing myself and could at least get it up on a plane with timing set around 18 deg btdc but you have to nurse the throttle to get it to plane.

While the weights and springs are clear and work there is practically no advance on the timing with increased throttle. Idle is good at 10 degrees but will not get out of neutral. Higher advance at idle allows me to nurse it up speed but with no power at all.

This all started last summer when during a lunch stop the idle went to crap. Idle was rough but cleaned up around 2000 rpms.

Now everything about it sucks.

If I had to pay someone to fix the boat and it wasn't fixed when I got it back it would be returned to the dealership. What did you pay them for?

TonyB
06-06-2011, 08:53 AM
Labor only. $112 to get it running correctly. They say they did.

Matt L.
06-06-2011, 09:20 AM
What EI module do you have???

If Pertronix, check your voltage up to the coil. If it is less that 9.5 the EI will malfunction. Will run fine without a load, but will have no power at all under a load.

I was getting 7.5V at the coil due to corrosion induced resistance throughout my wiring. Re-wired everything from the batts to the coil and now have battery voltage all the way.

Good luck!

Matt

TonyB
06-06-2011, 10:49 AM
Assuming you have the plug wires in the correct firing order, backfire through the carb and needing to over-advance the timing could be signs of a very worn timing chain or worn camshaft. Turn the crank by hand (breaker bar) while watching the dist rotor....they should both move together....if there is excess movement of the crank and the rotor just sits there, you need a new timing chain and gear set.

How many hours on the engine?

The engine has 1250 hrs but I don't want it to be a worn camshaft or loose timing chain. So there.

JLeuck64
06-06-2011, 04:20 PM
Well then Krusty... switch back to breaker points! So there.

Sheez, we all are just trying to help a fellow MC'r

Jerseydave
06-06-2011, 06:16 PM
The engine has 1250 hrs but I don't want it to be a worn camshaft or loose timing chain. So there.

It's worth checking, only takes a few minutes to eliminate that as a possible cause. I've had plenty of worn camshafts in boats (not MC's) because of water in the oil so it's always a possibility. I'm hoping that's not your boat's problem.

Cloaked
06-06-2011, 07:30 PM
1250 hours is nothing on that engine (other than your stated problem). I would not expect the issue to be a shaft or chain, however, don't rule it out. Patience. You'll get it running. Lots of knowledge here in this thread.

I have also heard of brand new EI setups (conversion kits) to be bad and have to be replaced.

I have the EI conversion on a 351 and it's the berries as for ignition.

TonyB
06-07-2011, 11:44 AM
Well then Krusty... switch back to breaker points!

Sheez, we all are just trying to help a fellow MC'r

It was an attempt to be facetitious. Sorry.

Don't for a minute think I don't appreciate all the help. I do. Always have. So there.

loeweb
06-12-2011, 11:11 AM
Don't know if it helps but I had similar issues on my 88. Turns out I I stalled the ei module backwards resulting in the firing order to be 180 degrees off. Switched the wires half over and haven't had problems since