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captain planet
06-02-2011, 02:52 PM
Maybe I just need to get on my boat....maybe I just need to take my first slalom and footin run for the year (my boat still has antifreeze in the block), but yesterday something was said to me that has had me angry for almost 24 hours. My anger stems from this...

So in 2008 when everything was falling apart and our debt went from something around 5 trillion to something around 10+ trillion....why hasn't anybody been strung up for it yet? Nobody is on trial, nobody is responsible, and nobody cares! We have been robbed blind and as long as everybody has their freaking smart phones, it doesn't matter. It is all going to catch up with us sooner than later. Where is the outrage?

I have often thought it was rediculous to vent like this in an open forum...but really, anybody that knows me knows I think about this stuff all the time and they just accept my ramblings and dismiss them. I'm not sure why I'm putting this here. To get it off my chest? My wife agrees with me on most of what I'm angry about, but you can only go on so long to your spouse about this stuff. I guess I put this here to see who else is outraged. It just seems like nobody really is paying attention or is angered by our elected officials....and the same scum bags keep getting elected over and over again. I can't do anything about it except vote so maybe I'll just cancel the paper, turn off the news, and block the news channels on the TV for a while.

Enough rambling...I'm 2 days from the maiden voyage for 2011, maybe I'll forget about this for a little while on Saturday and Sunday........maybe.

scott023
06-02-2011, 03:04 PM
Get out on the water and have some fun...

YooperScott
06-02-2011, 03:20 PM
Definitely angered here. Didn't vote for the current regime and certainly won't again. Then again doubt many people that can afford MC's of any age did.

KnoxX2
06-02-2011, 03:48 PM
I can't do anything about it except vote so maybe I'll just cancel the paper, turn off the news, and block the news channels on the TV for a while.

Hate to say it...... but this is what I have done for the past 3 years now.

JimN
06-02-2011, 04:08 PM
Maybe I just need to get on my boat....maybe I just need to take my first slalom and footin run for the year (my boat still has antifreeze in the block), but yesterday something was said to me that has had me angry for almost 24 hours. My anger stems from this...

So in 2008 when everything was falling apart and our debt went from something around 5 trillion to something around 10+ trillion....why hasn't anybody been strung up for it yet? Nobody is on trial, nobody is responsible, and nobody cares! We have been robbed blind and as long as everybody has their freaking smart phones, it doesn't matter. It is all going to catch up with us sooner than later. Where is the outrage?

I have often thought it was rediculous to vent like this in an open forum...but really, anybody that knows me knows I think about this stuff all the time and they just accept my ramblings and dismiss them. I'm not sure why I'm putting this here. To get it off my chest? My wife agrees with me on most of what I'm angry about, but you can only go on so long to your spouse about this stuff. I guess I put this here to see who else is outraged. It just seems like nobody really is paying attention or is angered by our elected officials....and the same scum bags keep getting elected over and over again. I can't do anything about it except vote so maybe I'll just cancel the paper, turn off the news, and block the news channels on the TV for a while.

Enough rambling...I'm 2 days from the maiden voyage for 2011, maybe I'll forget about this for a little while on Saturday and Sunday........maybe.

In the US, close to 50% of workers don't pay income tax, for various reasons. Many of these collect some form of assistance, while some just use the tax code to their advantage in some way. Of the ones who do pay tax, there's a good number who are very wealthy and vote Democrat. This means that, overall, Conservatives will be outnumbered in large cities and among the entertainment "community". Entertainers aren't there to preach politics, but many do anyway and this rabble-rousing gets the ear of the younger people whose main interests are having a good time and being as trendy as possible. Those in the 50% who don't pay taxes because they can't get a job/didn't finish school/won't bother/would rather be drunk or drugged will never vote for anyone who's against them continuing their lifestyle. Democrats use this to their advantage and if you look at the voting record of large cities, where the majority of these people live, you'll see that they rarely vote for a Republican.

The current administration has done things that are unconstitutional, immoral and illegal, yet they're being given a pass because they offered hope and change. Look at all of the new czars- these people were supposed to have been vetted by Congress and/or the voters. They weren't. Obama keeps coming up with new main topics to press on with and he hasn't finished any of them. Open and transparent? GMAB! Close Gitmo? Nope. Reduce the deficit? Anything but. The Federal government has grown while private industry has dwindled. Corporate welfare goes on and with the CEO of GE on his cabinet, he has shown his favoritism. He wanted to block Fox news from briefings at the beginning of his term and that had to come as a recommendation from his GE buddy, who was in charge of NBC/MSNBC.

Bottom line, We, The People don't matter to those in government and it really doesn't matter which side of the aisle they sit on. We need people in government who want to do what's best for the US, not their pocket and legacy. If they do what we need, their legacy will take care of itself. The double standards used are disgusting, nationally and internationally.

CantRepeat
06-02-2011, 04:15 PM
You could spend all your energy running for office or campaingning for someone you think will do a better job.

JimN
06-02-2011, 04:17 PM
Hate to say it...... but this is what I have done for the past 3 years now.

People hiding their heads in the sand doesn't change anything, it just makes them think everything is still OK. When they raise their heads again, they can't believe how far things have declined. They have no right to complain because they have just stood silent when things were going bad, IMO.

"Discontent is the first necessity of progress."- Edison

CantRepeat
06-02-2011, 04:19 PM
People hiding their heads in the sand doesn't change anything, it just makes them think everything is still OK. When they raise their heads again, they can't believe how far things have declined. They have no right to complain because they have just stood silent when things were going bad, IMO.

"Discontent is the first necessity of progress."- Edison

Compared to what? Yelling on a public forum about boats? Yelling at the TV? Screaming at the newpapers?

I see no difference in those actions then just turning off the news and going boating.

JimN
06-02-2011, 04:20 PM
Then again doubt many people that can afford MC's of any age did.

Wanna bet? I know people who are extremely wealthy and they'll never vote for a Republican. They're not entertainers, either.

JimN
06-02-2011, 04:22 PM
Compared to what? Yelling on a public forum about boats? Yelling at the TV? Screaming at the newpapers?

I see no difference in those actions then just turning off the news and going boating.

No, I mean actually doing something about it, like helping a candidate they prefer. WTH does yelling at a TV or newspaper do to help? Absolutely nothing.

KnoxX2
06-02-2011, 04:22 PM
People hiding their heads in the sand doesn't change anything, it just makes them think everything is still OK. When they raise their heads again, they can't believe how far things have declined. They have no right to complain because they have just stood silent when things were going bad, IMO.

"Discontent is the first necessity of progress."- Edison

Trust me in my line of work I see it all day every day. I just got tired of the media spin. But I can see your point.

CantRepeat
06-02-2011, 04:24 PM
No, I mean actually doing something about it, like helping a candidate they prefer. WTH does yelling at a TV or newspaper do to help? Absolutely nothing.

What does yelling on a boat forum do to help? See my point?

KnoxX2
06-02-2011, 04:25 PM
Spent the past 16 years doing my part. Just wish it was enough.

CantRepeat
06-02-2011, 04:25 PM
Spent the past 16 years doing my part. Just wish it was enough.

/salute you've done your part brother.

KnoxX2
06-02-2011, 04:26 PM
As have you......

JimN
06-02-2011, 04:27 PM
Trust me in my line of work I see it all day every day. I just got tired of the media spin. But I can see your point.

I think it would be hard to change the mainstream media's bias unless someone in government does something so bad that they don't even want to be associated with whoever did it. They got Obama elected and they loved Clinton when he was getting hoovered in the Oval Office, but did nothing to bring the facts to light. They skew facts all the time and that's not their job but since they've become purely a vehicle for entertainment, this will not change.

JimN
06-02-2011, 04:28 PM
What does yelling on a boat forum do to help? See my point?

Who's yelling? Discussing the issues and possibly coming up with a few solutions is far better than hiding one's head until the smoke clears.

KnoxX2
06-02-2011, 04:30 PM
The main stream media is a big problem in our country. This is where most people get their info from then they have their head in the sand!!!!!! Just sayin :)

vision
06-02-2011, 04:32 PM
CP, you are right. It is shocking that no significant criminal charges have been brought against the main financial institutions who pushed the derivatives market. I think this is related to the fact that a large percentage of our current Treasury department executives and Federal Reserve executives formally worked for the financial institutions which we have asked them to monitor. This is an inherently poor design for protecting the tax payers interest.

The financial crisis built up slowly from about 1998 to 2007 due to deregulation of the securities market. This was encourage by Greenspan, and passed in legislation by congress, and accepted by the presidents at the time. Excellent lobbying by a lucrative financial sector. But it is time to pass serious regulation of what these institutions can and can not due to investors money. The derivatives market was nothing more than gambling. Not shocking that eventually the gamblers lost money. Too bad it was not their money but their investor's money.

I would have preferred that President Bush have not bailed them out. Letting several large financial institutions fail would have had negative short term repercussions, but would have sent a huge long term message.

KnoxX2
06-02-2011, 04:33 PM
By the way when I say Main Stream I mean CBS, NBC, ABC and FOX. They all spin their own truth.

KnoxX2
06-02-2011, 04:35 PM
Letting several large financial institutions fail would have had negative short term repercussions, but would have sent a huge long term message.

Agreed..........

DemolitionMan
06-02-2011, 04:40 PM
Anger is when we have to go into public housing project's and see guy's younger than I sitting on the porch drinking beer and looking at there new escalade with the Obama 08 sticker on the back window. That is what makes me angry.:mad:

76S&S
06-02-2011, 05:18 PM
Another large part of the problem is the workforce or should I say the nationality of it. I work for a fairly large GC and we employ our fair share of hispanic workers. Now before everyone jumps on me, all of our employees, regardless of race or color, must go through the Federal e-verify system. This ensures that they are at least legal. What it doesn't prevent is an employee that claims married and 15 on their tax form and never pay a red cent of taxes (except medicare and ss). They move so often that the government can never catch up with them.

We won't close our borders, so let's employ them. Let's just tax them at the highest rate possible.

Rant over.........

captain planet
06-02-2011, 05:29 PM
What does yelling on a boat forum do to help? See my point?

The very reason I questioned myself before I started this thread. However I feel compelled to do something. I can vote every go around, but I am but one person. If I can get people to start talking maybe it will make a difference. The bottom line, both parties are the same, they both fail us, they both have been doing things unconstitutional and they need to be held accountable. They use social issues to divide us while they keep doing what their business buddies want them to do.....and I'm tired of it. I'm tired of calling my representatives and not seeing results, I'm tired of them voting not in the people's interest. If shouting on here about does nothing....I can say I guess I tried to reach a larger audience than just my friends, family, and coworkers. It's not like I can go out on the street and talk to people, they will think you are nuts. I've been on here for 6 years now and feel that at least I can reach another group of people who I have had contact with for a while, even if it is only in cyberspace.

CantRepeat
06-02-2011, 05:33 PM
The very reason I questioned myself before I started this thread. However I feel compelled to do something. I can vote every go around, but I am but one person. If I can get people to start talking maybe it will make a difference. The bottom line, both parties are the same, they both fail us, they both have been doing things unconstitutional and they need to be held accountable. They use social issues to divide us while they keep doing what their business buddies want them to do.....and I'm tired of it. I'm tired of calling my representatives and not seeing results, I'm tired of them voting not in the people's interest. If shouting on here about does nothing....I can say I guess I tried to reach a larger audience than just my friends, family, and coworkers. It's not like I can go out on the street and talk to people, they will think you are nuts. I've been on here for 6 years now and feel that at least I can reach another group of people who I have had contact with for a while, even if it is only in cyberspace.

It's never too late to get into politics.

DooSPX
06-02-2011, 05:45 PM
In the US, close to 50% of workers don't pay income tax, for various reasons. Many of these collect some form of assistance, while some just use the tax code to their advantage in some way. Of the ones who do pay tax, there's a good number who are very wealthy and vote Democrat. This means that, overall, Conservatives will be outnumbered in large cities and among the entertainment "community". Entertainers aren't there to preach politics, but many do anyway and this rabble-rousing gets the ear of the younger people whose main interests are having a good time and being as trendy as possible. Those in the 50% who don't pay taxes because they can't get a job/didn't finish school/won't bother/would rather be drunk or drugged will never vote for anyone who's against them continuing their lifestyle. Democrats use this to their advantage and if you look at the voting record of large cities, where the majority of these people live, you'll see that they rarely vote for a Republican.

The current administration has done things that are unconstitutional, immoral and illegal, yet they're being given a pass because they offered hope and change. Look at all of the new czars- these people were supposed to have been vetted by Congress and/or the voters. They weren't. Obama keeps coming up with new main topics to press on with and he hasn't finished any of them. Open and transparent? GMAB! Close Gitmo? Nope. Reduce the deficit? Anything but. The Federal government has grown while private industry has dwindled. Corporate welfare goes on and with the CEO of GE on his cabinet, he has shown his favoritism. He wanted to block Fox news from briefings at the beginning of his term and that had to come as a recommendation from his GE buddy, who was in charge of NBC/MSNBC.

Bottom line, We, The People don't matter to those in government and it really doesn't matter which side of the aisle they sit on. We need people in government who want to do what's best for the US, not their pocket and legacy. If they do what we need, their legacy will take care of itself. The double standards used are disgusting, nationally and internationally.

100% agree with Jim!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am more amazed everyday that Obama the Terrorist president has gotten away with all the unconstitutional, immoral and illegal things and not been thrown in Gitmo himself and his cabinet and, on top of that, some people still support him for another term!!!!!!!!! I saw a re-elect Obama 12 sticker on this old ladies car, it about made me sick!
The lack of intelligence in many, many people is incredible.

captain planet
06-02-2011, 05:47 PM
CP, you are right. It is shocking that no significant criminal charges have been brought against the main financial institutions who pushed the derivatives market. I think this is related to the fact that a large percentage of our current Treasury department executives and Federal Reserve executives formally worked for the financial institutions which we have asked them to monitor. This is an inherently poor design for protecting the tax payers interest.

The financial crisis built up slowly from about 1998 to 2007 due to deregulation of the securities market. This was encourage by Greenspan, and passed in legislation by congress, and accepted by the presidents at the time. Excellent lobbying by a lucrative financial sector. But it is time to pass serious regulation of what these institutions can and can not due to investors money. The derivatives market was nothing more than gambling. Not shocking that eventually the gamblers lost money. Too bad it was not their money but their investor's money.

I would have preferred that President Bush have not bailed them out. Letting several large financial institutions fail would have had negative short term repercussions, but would have sent a huge long term message.

Considering his grandfather (or great grandfather) Prescot Bush was one of the participants at the meeting at Jeckyl Island in 1913 (which formed the federal reserve), it should come as no suprise he was going to bail them out.....at our expense.

captain planet
06-02-2011, 05:50 PM
Agreed..........

And it is sad they weren't allowed to fail. It just shows you how the game is rigged. Yet we and our children are left to pay the bill for their activities. It stinks.

It should not shock you that the Secretary of the Treasury has come from goldman-sachs for the last 35 years. Does that not bother anyone else?

aquaman
06-02-2011, 06:14 PM
And it is sad they weren't allowed to fail. It just shows you how the game is rigged. Yet we and our children are left to pay the bill for their activities. It stinks.

It should not shock you that the Secretary of the Treasury has come from goldman-sachs for the last 35 years. Does that not bother anyone else?

Captain Planet.....I will forever support your right to vent on this forum. Raising awareness is the first step to solving a problem.

I share your frustrations with the political criminals we have elected and tolerated for too long.

atlfootr
06-02-2011, 09:35 PM
My anger stems from this...
So in 2008 when everything was falling apart and our debt went from something around 5 trillion to something around 10+ trillion....If that doesn't get YOU pissed, maybe this will ...

http://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html





http://www.usdebtclock.org/sources/transparent2.gif

CantRepeat
06-02-2011, 10:11 PM
I'll have that paid off next month!

captain planet
06-02-2011, 10:19 PM
If that doesn't get YOU pissed, maybe this will ...










http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/US_Debt_Clock_15-09-2009.JPG



http://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html


http://www.usdebtclock.org/art2/Debt-Clock2-2011.jpg


http://www.usdebtclock.org/sources/transparent2.gif

Thanks Atlfootr. I have a link to the national debt on my computer. When you hit refresh the numbers goes up. You can refresh about one time per second and each second it goes up by like 28K.

KnoxX2
06-03-2011, 11:55 AM
Bump...................

wrobins1
06-03-2011, 12:13 PM
I am more amazed everyday that Obama the Terrorist president has gotten away with all the unconstitutional, immoral and illegal things and not been thrown in Gitmo himself and his cabinet and, on top of that, some people still support him for another term!!!!!!!!! I saw a re-elect Obama 12 sticker on this old ladies car, it about made me sick!
The lack of intelligence in many, many people is incredible.[/QUOTE]

I should be ashamed but I have flipped the bird to several vehicles like this just to allow them to know how little I approve of their ignorance!!!

If you want fiscal responsibility check out FAIRTAX.ORG & vote them out this year and every year after this one.

JimN
06-03-2011, 02:51 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110603/bs_nm/us_usa_debt;_ylt=AnZeo7coTUOkOuC_nikzOYOs0NUE;_ylu =X3oDMTNmcG12OGIzBGFzc2V0A25tLzIwMTEwNjAzL3VzX3VzY V9kZWJ0BGNjb2RlA21vc3Rwb3B1bGFyBGNwb3MDNgRwb3MDMwR wdANob21lX2Nva2UEc2VjA3luX2hlYWRsaW5lX2xpc3QEc2xrA 21vb2R5Mzlzc291bg--

And
http://www.torquenews.com/106/fiat-buy-final-us-gov%E2%80%99t-chrysler-stake-560

WHEN THE EFF DID IT BECOME OK FOR THE US GOVERNMENT TO SELL OFF AN AMERICAN CORPORATION'S STOCK AFTER IT BAILED THAT CORPORATION OUT, WITHOUT A VOTE BY STOCKHOLDERS????????????????????????????

ProStar Slalom
06-03-2011, 03:05 PM
In the US, close to 50% of workers don't pay income tax, for various reasons. Many of these collect some form of assistance, while some just use the tax code to their advantage in some way. Of the ones who do pay tax, there's a good number who are very wealthy and vote Democrat. This means that, overall, Conservatives will be outnumbered in large cities and among the entertainment "community". Entertainers aren't there to preach politics, but many do anyway and this rabble-rousing gets the ear of the younger people whose main interests are having a good time and being as trendy as possible. Those in the 50% who don't pay taxes because they can't get a job/didn't finish school/won't bother/would rather be drunk or drugged will never vote for anyone who's against them continuing their lifestyle. Democrats use this to their advantage and if you look at the voting record of large cities, where the majority of these people live, you'll see that they rarely vote for a Republican.

The current administration has done things that are unconstitutional, immoral and illegal, yet they're being given a pass because they offered hope and change. Look at all of the new czars- these people were supposed to have been vetted by Congress and/or the voters. They weren't. Obama keeps coming up with new main topics to press on with and he hasn't finished any of them. Open and transparent? GMAB! Close Gitmo? Nope. Reduce the deficit? Anything but. The Federal government has grown while private industry has dwindled. Corporate welfare goes on and with the CEO of GE on his cabinet, he has shown his favoritism. He wanted to block Fox news from briefings at the beginning of his term and that had to come as a recommendation from his GE buddy, who was in charge of NBC/MSNBC.

Bottom line, We, The People don't matter to those in government and it really doesn't matter which side of the aisle they sit on. We need people in government who want to do what's best for the US, not their pocket and legacy. If they do what we need, their legacy will take care of itself. The double standards used are disgusting, nationally and internationally.


Damn, Jim. You've got a great understanding of mechanical/electrical systems as well as our state and federal politics...well said.

DooSPX
06-03-2011, 03:12 PM
JimN is a smart cookie! lol

rjracin240
06-03-2011, 10:25 PM
Gotta jump on my soap box for this one; I am at a loss as what to do?
You call our elected officials and if you get throught to someone all they do is placate you and tell you what a great person is representing you. You write to them and if you get a reply it is some canned answer.

At the risk of the FED's knocking at my door gonna go ahead and say it, thinking a good ol Boston Tea Party is the only thing that will catch the attention of these morons.

When that fella got Peesed off and flew his light plane into that federal building in Austin Texas couple of years back, it sure got the attention of the politicians for awhile.

It cracks me up how obama said he supported the civil unrest in Egypt and supported the Egyptians fighting for their rights, makes me wonder if he would support us asking for our politicians to do their job?

All right I feel better it is friday, the weekend is here now gotta find the thread to show what I am gonna drink.

Skipper
06-03-2011, 10:30 PM
Fire everyone! Throw them all out of office, especially those on their 50th year in politics. This douche Obama is the engineer of a train wreck. Scru him, scru the slugs that voted for him, and try to learn Chinese.....gonna need it when the dust settles on this train wreck.

Dino Don
06-03-2011, 10:38 PM
Fire everyone! Throw them all out of office, especially those on their 50th year in politics. This douche Obama is the engineer of a train wreck. Scru him, scru the slugs that voted for him, and try to learn Chinese.....gonna need it when the dust settles on this train wreck.

YEP! You got that right--

Jorski
06-06-2011, 11:25 AM
WHEN THE EFF DID IT BECOME OK FOR THE US GOVERNMENT TO SELL OFF AN AMERICAN CORPORATION'S STOCK AFTER IT BAILED THAT CORPORATION OUT, WITHOUT A VOTE BY STOCKHOLDERS????????????????????????????

What is your concern with the transaction?

As far as answering the question posed. The answer is forever. Stockholders never get to vote on the sale of a minority position in a publicly listed company. I would have thought that you would have preferred that the government wasn't involved in the ownership of private corporations????

Perhaps you mean the American public?

87MCProstar
06-06-2011, 11:43 AM
I agree with everyone, our system is f'ed. but i think the real issue is that most americans have lost something inside them that made this country great. there are so many people who think they deserve the world without having to work a day in it. i'm in education (public school) and unfortunately i see this trend only getting worse. we are doing nothing but creating L A Z Y people who expect bigger and better things. and unfortunately i think both this trend and the polictical trend is going to continue until there is a major revolution...but the people with the big bucks will fight long and hard to make sure that doesn't happen, while us common folk are forced to sit around and wait for what happens next.

Skipper
06-06-2011, 12:39 PM
I happen to be planning a revolution....figure it is the only way to win back our country.

JimN
06-06-2011, 01:27 PM
What is your concern with the transaction?

As far as answering the question posed. The answer is forever. Stockholders never get to vote on the sale of a minority position in a publicly listed company.

For some reason, I thought the automakers that took bailout money were supposed to pay it back, in some way. While it's possible that it happened this way, with all of the claims of transparency in this administration, I would like to have seen this come to light at the time.

"I would have thought that you would have preferred that the government wasn't involved in the ownership of private corporations????"

Exactly. It's bad enough that the head of GE is on Obama's cabinet but if the government steps into business, it won't be a free economy (not that it should be a free-for-all). As far as "Perhaps you mean the American public?", public ownership is fine if they buy it based on their own decision to purchase stock but I guarantee that not every US citizen was in favor of how this administration is operating.

ahhudgins
06-06-2011, 01:44 PM
I'm just tired of working my tail off and paying my "fair share" and then getting a letter from Social Security stating that if I live long enough to receive any of it, they will only be able to pay 75 cents on the dollar. It seems like everyone I work with has at least one family member who is mooching off the system by claiming to be disabled, but then they can play softball on the weekends. My wife has a brother who has knocked up two different women and doesn't support either of the kids. Who pays for bringing the kids up? You and I do.

I will never understand why someone can have a child and tax dollars are used to raise the child unless the mother takes the father to court. On the other hand, if I build a garage on MY property I have to pay the government more taxes every year for something that they had no part in building. The whole system is screwed up.

ahhudgins
06-06-2011, 01:46 PM
I happen to be planning a revolution....figure it is the only way to win back our country.

Let me know when the plans are in place.

Jorski
06-06-2011, 02:04 PM
For some reason, I thought the automakers that took bailout money were supposed to pay it back, in some way. While it's possible that it happened this way, with all of the claims of transparency in this administration, I would like to have seen this come to light at the time.

In both cases (GM and Chryser) the government got loan schedule to be paid back, and equity in the companies.

GM did pay back their loan...ahead of schedule.

Chrysler has more to go, but the government's selling of the stock in no way absolves them of their obligations vis-a-vis paying back the bailout. The debt and the equity are seperate.

JimN
06-06-2011, 02:35 PM
.

In both cases (GM and Chryser) the government got loan schedule to be paid back, and equity in the companies.

GM did pay back their loan...ahead of schedule.

Chrysler has more to go, but the government's selling of the stock in no way absolves them of their obligations vis-a-vis paying back the bailout. The debt and the equity are seperate.

So, the government gets to sell the stock AND Chrysler still has to pay the money? How are the debt and equity separate? Didn't they use the equity as collateral?

If the government made $20B profit (that's the number I have seen and heard thrown around) AND they receive $560B for the sale, who gets the money? How will it be used? Any chance of it being used to service the public debt, or will they just find something else to spend it on? I'd guess the latter.

captain planet
06-06-2011, 04:51 PM
Gotta jump on my soap box for this one; I am at a loss as what to do?
You call our elected officials and if you get throught to someone all they do is placate you and tell you what a great person is representing you. You write to them and if you get a reply it is some canned answer.

At the risk of the FED's knocking at my door gonna go ahead and say it, thinking a good ol Boston Tea Party is the only thing that will catch the attention of these morons.

When that fella got Peesed off and flew his light plane into that federal building in Austin Texas couple of years back, it sure got the attention of the politicians for awhile.

It cracks me up how obama said he supported the civil unrest in Egypt and supported the Egyptians fighting for their rights, makes me wonder if he would support us asking for our politicians to do their job?All right I feel better it is friday, the weekend is here now gotta find the thread to show what I am gonna drink.

That is an interesting point. If you think about it, we are shouting over here for our elected officials to do our will, yet they do the will of thier lobbiest friends. So if we start an uproar....does that mean Obama will support us? He would almost have to considering his stance on all the unrest in the mid-east.....either that or the F-18's and the drones would start flying over our own soil. Try hiding from them with all the "traffic cameras" going up all over the place.

Interesting times my friends, interesting times.

captain planet
06-06-2011, 04:52 PM
.

In both cases (GM and Chryser) the government got loan schedule to be paid back, and equity in the companies.

GM did pay back their loan...ahead of schedule.

Chrysler has more to go, but the government's selling of the stock in no way absolves them of their obligations vis-a-vis paying back the bailout. The debt and the equity are seperate.

I thought I had heard they still owed money?

http://consumerist.com/2010/11/gm-ceo-wont-commit-to-using-ipo-money-to-repay-bailout-cash.html

http://reason.com/archives/2010/04/27/gms-phony-bailout-payback/1

Jorski
06-06-2011, 07:18 PM
To clarify:

When the government gave these companies money in bankruptcy/reorganization, they received a combination of debt and equity. BTW, this is almost always the case when something is recapitalized and brought out of bankruptcy. All I was saying previously, is that selling equity, doesn't change the debt obligation.

GM paid back their debt...what the government will utlimately realize on the value of the equity depends upon the stock price. In that first article, that is what GMs president is talking about when he says that he can't guarantee that the government will be fully repaid...he cannot guarantee a future stock price. the second article basically said the same thing.

As for Chrysler..same story, although I believe some argue that they didn't pay back all of the debt because some loans were forgiven in the recapitalization.

Not saying that any of this is perfect, but, it's a better outcome than if they were just allowed to fail (in my opinion).

These reorganzations also allowed these companies to renegotiate their deals with labour and have re-emerged as viable companies that employ thousands. they stood no chance of surviving otherwise.

1redTA
06-06-2011, 08:06 PM
bump! I feel the same, the situation is overwhelming. I see an over all lack of pride, determination, self worth and integrity in alot of people lately. I don't believe alot of the people in the country will pay attention until there favorite shows and Internet are turned off.

JimN
06-06-2011, 09:19 PM
To clarify:

When the government gave these companies money in bankruptcy/reorganization, they received a combination of debt and equity. BTW, this is almost always the case when something is recapitalized and brought out of bankruptcy. All I was saying previously, is that selling equity, doesn't change the debt obligation.

GM paid back their debt...what the government will utlimately realize on the value of the equity depends upon the stock price. In that first article, that is what GMs president is talking about when he says that he can't guarantee that the government will be fully repaid...he cannot guarantee a future stock price. the second article basically said the same thing.

As for Chrysler..same story, although I believe some argue that they didn't pay back all of the debt because some loans were forgiven in the recapitalization.

Not saying that any of this is perfect, but, it's a better outcome than if they were just allowed to fail (in my opinion).

These reorganzations also allowed these companies to renegotiate their deals with labour and have re-emerged as viable companies that employ thousands. they stood no chance of surviving otherwise.

Too bad so many of their suppliers went under because of the lack of orders. That cost a lot of jobs, so it hasn't been a complete success.

mdskier
06-06-2011, 09:52 PM
.

GM did pay back their loan...ahead of schedule.



Did they really? Reports I read said that GM paid the loans using add'l TARP money that was available. So, it seems that they took additional money from the Fed Gov't in order to pay back loans to the Fed Gov't.

Technically, you are correct that they paid the loans, but the Fed Gov't actually got a net of $0 dollars. Not much of a deal for the U.S. taxpayer is it. Window dressing really for the Obama admin.

Also, you stated:

Not saying that any of this is perfect, but, it's a better outcome than if they were just allowed to fail (in my opinion).

These reorganzations also allowed these companies to renegotiate their deals with labour and have re-emerged as viable companies that employ thousands. they stood no chance of surviving otherwise.


You don't know that they stood no chance of surviving otherwise. They could have gone through bankruptcy like many, many other companies have and come through it.

Just curious why you think the Fed Gov't knows better which companies should survive and how than the marketplace?

Jorski
06-06-2011, 10:16 PM
You don't know that they stood no chance of surviving otherwise. They could have gone through bankruptcy like many, many other companies have and come through it.

There was absolutely zero chance of a reorganization of that scale at that time without government involvement given the credit crisis.

Technically, you are correct that they paid the loans, but the Fed Gov't actually got a net of $0 dollars. Not much of a deal for the U.S. taxpayer is it. Window dressing really for the Obama admin.

Actually that is great deal for the US taxpayer. How many people do you figure that GM currently employs? They all pay tax. Further, if they had truly failed to reorganize and had dissolved, then you would have seen an immense number of further job losses in regards to suppliers etc. They got all of this for (using your numbers) $0 net.

Just curious why you think the Fed Gov't knows better which companies should survive and how than the marketplace?

Don't think that do; however, this had NOTHING to do with the marketplace. GM sold a crap load of cars. It had to do with bad deals with labour and a crushing pension obligation. As for the market place deciding who deserved funding, versus the government there was no funding whatsoever available for any company at that time, bankrupt or otherwise.

Sure Buffet did a convertible deal with Goldman Sachs, but he couldn't have handled the GM deal...not big enough, no one is.

mdskier
06-06-2011, 11:15 PM
No, you can't use my numbers as I was referring to the payback of the loan. The GM bailout cost the U.S taxpayers tens of billions of dollars. As far as I can tell, GM employed under 100,000 in the U.S before the bailout and less than 70,000 now. One could argue paying those unemployment would have been cheaper even with the "further losses in regards to suppliers".

The part you are missing is the fact that the marketplace has everything to do with the "bad deals with labour and crushing pension obligation". Companies make choices and if those choices make it so they are no longer viable, then bankruptcy is the answer. GM is far from a turn around and I doubt they will survive long term.

Too big to fail is just stupid.

Jorski
06-07-2011, 11:15 AM
Funny, that you change your numbers so readily....but whatever.

The point is that GM did go through bankruptcy, and it was the answer to labour agreements and the pension obligations.

You just think that the government shouldn't have played a role. Fair enough.

That said, GM is currently more than viable, earned $3.2B in the first quarter.making it 5 straight quarters of profitability.

By the way...if they had let GM and Chrysler fail; what do you think the world market would have done to the price of US Treasuries?

captain planet
06-07-2011, 12:11 PM
bump! I feel the same, the situation is overwhelming. I see an over all lack of pride, determination, self worth and integrity in alot of people lately. I don't believe alot of the people in the country will pay attention until there favorite shows and Internet are turned off.

It is completely overwhelming. Our government is so flawed in it's operation in so many ways it almost hurts to think about all that has to change to get it right again.....and nobody wants to talk about it. And if they do talk about it, they regurgitate something they heard on one of the flawed "news" networks instead of reading up on what is going on. Either that or they have no idea what you are talking about. The citizens of this country have lost the ability of critical thinking. Which is no suprise with all the gadgets to distract us with each passing moment.

Also, the flawed operation hasn't just been with this administration. The government for corporate interest trend started way back; prior to even the nixon administration. It got really ramped up during reagan and exploded during clinton and bush II.

At risk of reducing my credibility, in the words of Rage Against the Machine, "We gotta take the power back". But as you say, until dancing with the stars, american idol, the bachelor, etc. are off the TV, it won't happen.

captain planet
06-07-2011, 12:13 PM
No, you can't use my numbers as I was referring to the payback of the loan. The GM bailout cost the U.S taxpayers tens of billions of dollars. As far as I can tell, GM employed under 100,000 in the U.S before the bailout and less than 70,000 now. One could argue paying those unemployment would have been cheaper even with the "further losses in regards to suppliers".

The part you are missing is the fact that the marketplace has everything to do with the "bad deals with labour and crushing pension obligation". Companies make choices and if those choices make it so they are no longer viable, then bankruptcy is the answer. GM is far from a turn around and I doubt they will survive long term.

Too big to fail is just stupid.

Especially with respect to the banks....but since the big boys are basically calling the shots, do you really think they would let themselves fail? :confused:

mdskier
06-07-2011, 12:52 PM
I did not change my numbers. You said we got a good deal because all of that for a net of $0. I was simply saying that GM did *not* pay back the loan, it was simply a swap of the accounts. In fact, the U.S. got $0 dollars in that transaction, but did loan tens of billions. And I submit that the jobs saved or whatever was not worth it. Yes, I don't think the Gov't should have played a role. (for that matter I did not agree with any of the bailouts/TARP/Stimulus Bush or Obama).

5 quarters of profitability... Time will tell.

I have no idea what the world market would have done to the price of US Treasuries. Would that have been worse than the tens of billions loaned? Sometimes the medicine seems worse than the disease. But taking the medicine shortens the symptoms and removes the disease.

Gov't interference is masking the symptoms and giving a false sense of security.

captain planet
06-07-2011, 02:12 PM
I did not change my numbers. You said we got a good deal because all of that for a net of $0. I was simply saying that GM did *not* pay back the loan, it was simply a swap of the accounts. In fact, the U.S. got $0 dollars in that transaction, but did loan tens of billions. And I submit that the jobs saved or whatever was not worth it. Yes, I don't think the Gov't should have played a role. (for that matter I did not agree with any of the bailouts/TARP/Stimulus Bush or Obama).

5 quarters of profitability... Time will tell.

I have no idea what the world market would have done to the price of US Treasuries. Would that have been worse than the tens of billions loaned? Sometimes the medicine seems worse than the disease. But taking the medicine shortens the symptoms and removes the disease.

Gov't interference is masking the symptoms and giving a false sense of security.

I don't know about you, but with all the playing around the fed and the gov't is doing I have no feeling of security. "Increase the debt ceiling or our credit will be bad", OK, so who is all of that money going to? The military contractors, subsidies here to this big business, subsidies there to that big business....uh, how about letting these businesses make their own money and stop mortgaging away the country for our kids and kids kids.

Scary times.....but hey, american idol is on tonight followed by the bachelorette and survivor. We can all tweet about and discuss on our facebook.

JimN
06-07-2011, 03:32 PM
Here's an interesting site- it calls everything under HHS, HUD and Dept of Agriculture (Food stamps) "Income redistribution". It's also the largest expense that the government has, followed by the DOD and the Treasury Department.

http://www.federalbudget.com/

ahhudgins
06-07-2011, 08:11 PM
Here's an interesting site- it calls everything under HHS, HUD and Dept of Agriculture (Food stamps) "Income redistribution". It's also the largest expense that the government has, followed by the DOD and the Treasury Department.

http://www.federalbudget.com/

According to most reports, an average of 14% of Americans are getting food stamps. Most of those are also receiving some sort of housing assistance, medicad/medicare, and free cell phone minutes. One of my co-workers knows a guy who openly offers to sell his food stamp card for 50 cents on the dollar. We are becoming a Welfare Nation.

JimN
06-07-2011, 09:28 PM
According to most reports, an average of 14% of Americans are getting food stamps. Most of those are also receiving some sort of housing assistance, medicad/medicare, and free cell phone minutes. One of my co-workers knows a guy who openly offers to sell his food stamp card for 50 cents on the dollar. We are becoming a Welfare Nation.

We have people here in WI who are buying and selling food stamps on Face Book. I have heard people say that many teen mothers have been pressured by their family to have more kids, so they can collect more. Some sell their food stamps so they can go to the local casino because they're sure they'll double their money.

DemolitionMan
06-07-2011, 10:14 PM
One of my former employee's asked me one day if I was interested in groceries for half price. I said how is that possible? He said that his sister who is a single mother of a 1,3, and 4 year old received $1,200.00 a month on her ebt card and she only used $500.00 so she would be willing to go to the store with me and put $700.00 in groceries on her card if I would give her $350.00. I said no thank you. That is your welfare at work.

1redTA
06-07-2011, 10:22 PM
I have a have an in-law who gets 1200 in food stamps and wait for it....the best part...... drives an 09 Dodge Challenger with the 6.1

Dino Don
06-07-2011, 11:45 PM
I have a have an in-law who gets 1200 in food stamps and wait for it....the best part...... drives an 09 Dodge Challenger with the 6.1

Looks like that "change" is working out?????? I wish I could have some "change" for an new Challenger!!

ProStar Slalom
06-08-2011, 04:14 AM
We'd be in a lot better shape as a nation if people felt a sense of responsibility for themselves and their families, instead of the much more common feelings of entitlements. My dad spent part of his childhood in a house with a dirt floor, served overseas in WWII, and then came home and felt fortunate to get a job with the government that put food on the table, which he kept for 35 years until retirement. With the exception of a house, he paid cash for everything he ever bought, and bought used cars until the day he retired, when he "splurged" by paying cash for a new Ford truck.

The mindset I inherited is that if you can't afford to pay cash for it, then you can't afford it. Now the mindset is that if you can get approved for a loan or another credit card, then you can afford it....don't understand why the government continues to bail out people who are in a bad situation due to their own irresponsibility. If you can't afford to have kids, then don't have kids. If you can't afford a new car, then buy a used one. If you can't afford a $50,000 boat, then roll with a 10 year old MasterCraft towed by a 12 year old truck like I do.

JimN
06-08-2011, 07:13 AM
My mom was the secretary for the owner of a lumber company that had 6 yards and also sold coal and oil for heating. I don't know how many times I heard JP say "Never borrow money unless the interest paid will be less than what you'd make on the cash by leaving it in the bank. He was also the founder of at least one S & L, back in the 1930s and remained on the board until his death in the late-'70s. With earned interest being as low as it is now, that's impossible. I was talking with one of his great-grand kids when I went to the new store they built and he said that JP wouldn't be happy, since they borrowed money to build it. The lesson carries on and, even with all of the big box home improvement stores, they're doing very well because they treat people well, carry better quality goods and have a huge number of contractors who use them as a supplier.

People just have to keep up with the Joneses. Instant gratification is more important than saving for what they want. People think they 'need' something when they really 'want' it. Also, people use credit cards to extend their income and go into debt instead of for managing their expenses.

callaway_1
06-08-2011, 09:25 AM
I would vote for most of you guys. The country needs several thousand more people like you and me.