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03geetee
05-26-2011, 07:25 PM
Ok boyz I am trying to hold it together here but really close to losing it....

So pumped up for the weekend since I wanted to launch this bad boy and run it after countless hours working on it this winter. Did the right thing even though I had done it only 2 weeks ago, I figured bring it home hook it up to the hose and make sure it fires and runs a bit. Not only did she fire right up but I didnt even have to pump the throttle more then 1 turn. This was yesterday late evening. I trailered her up this morning feeling confident about a 3.5hr ride with no incident. I bring her to the launch, toss in the plugs put her in the water give it two pumps and it cranked and cranked and cranked with NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

***.

Checked the plugs and though it would seem gas would not be an issue the carb smelled like fuel, but the plugs were some what dry. Assumed something else but by that time the battery had had it, even with the jumper box on it. I swapped the plugs out and gave it a try and nothing.

Letting it charge all night, might get a new battery anyway since shes 3 years old, and I know my starter is an oldy. I cannot say how frustrated I am after it ran like a frickin top yesterday.

I made sure the neutral safety switch wasnt the problem, and I am sure nothing else rattled free when I trailered her. Not really sure what to think. Sorry just venting.

JTR

snork
05-26-2011, 07:53 PM
Try a new 2011 TT190, problem fixed

Nvrgvup
05-26-2011, 08:02 PM
I know sometimes mine doesn't choke enough and the choke fully opens before it starts. I think I could crank it all day and it wouldn't start without the choke on. So I sometimes have to pull the flame arrestor and hold the choke shut to get it to fire up. I think if I leave the key to ON it puts power to the choke and eventually opens the choke up without the engine running. Don't know why.

Check the easy basics. Spark & fuel. Pull a plug wire, put in a good old or new plug in it, lay, hold the plug shell to the engine to ground it, give it a crank to see if you see a spark.

If you have spark you can always give it a shot of starting fluid to see if it will kick. If it does then you know it is fuel related. Look down into the carb air horn and move the accelerator to see if it is squirting in fuel. If not then the carb may not be getting fuel.

If the engine is cranking the starter is fine. A good charged battery is always good.

Go from there and report back. Hope you have success.

skierdan
05-26-2011, 08:09 PM
not trying to be an ***, but how bout the kill switch?

Covi
05-26-2011, 08:14 PM
03gt- Argh!!!I feel your pain. I wish I had a good place to start but. you did as I would've. She'll come around again!

Hoosier Bob
05-26-2011, 08:27 PM
Floats stuck up? Sometime you fire right up but the bowls don't fill because the floats do not drop. First things first, Spark and fuel. My guess is a bit of Seafoam and some good gas will help.

JimN
05-26-2011, 08:54 PM
Sounds like it may be flooded. Crank it with the throttle wide open and if/when it fires up, throttle it down to idle.

Table Rocker
05-26-2011, 09:25 PM
Starting fluid can be your friend.

03geetee
05-26-2011, 09:59 PM
Gonna try in the morning with a little starting fluid to determine if spark is ok only if I need it. Thank you all so much for your insight it helps alot. It just kills me how good she ran, idle, WOT a few times you name it she purred. Now she is afraid of water go figure.

JTR

2RLAKE
05-26-2011, 10:15 PM
good luck ... hope it all works out for a great weekend

ski/hunt
05-26-2011, 10:25 PM
Hang in there 03!! The fact that she ran at home hints that it can't be major. Stay positive, grab a new battery a can of starting fluid, and hit it with confidence (it's run this season) Adventure makes for better stories anyway!!

Kyle
05-26-2011, 10:37 PM
Safety lanyard may be bad. If you use a test light make sure you can get flow through the switch when lanyard is attached. If you have the lanyard on both wires should be hot. If one wire is hot and the other is not the switch is bad. If it's bad connect the two wires together and bypass the switch. Mine is bypassed. I can spend 5k on a stereo but not $20 bucks on a switch. The switch is a pain and I think Lanyards are for the not so bright.

Make sure you are in neutral. If if not in neutral it won't even try to crank.

Make sure you have spark and fuel. See if you get spark to distributor by jumping coil wire.

Use starter fluid as mentioned above.

If flooded open throttle to wide open. Start and back down arter you get her running.

I seriously do not see major engine failure. Take a deep breath think clearly and don't let her defeat you.

03geetee
05-26-2011, 10:38 PM
Ok guys I am done for the night here is what I know...

Let the battery charge solid at 6amps for a good 4-5 hrs and had my battery box on her. She cranks over like butter, I am sure my raw water pump impellar is loving this, but anyway. I tried with no pumps, nothing. Then I pumped it twice like she usually likes and nothing. So I went WOT waited while cranking narry a hickup. So I started pumping while starting nothing. Starting fluid was my last resort went light at first with the primaries wide open nothing.

Spark is my issue the question is why? Can you guys help me with how to narrow the problem down, I dont have a volt meter handy so I need to do it old fashioned. I pulled a plug wire and listened close while cranking and nothing. This might be wrong not sure. Did the same with the coil wire nothing.

Is the little plug with two wires on the back of the trans the neutral safety switch? Can I bypass this anyway? Other wise should I suspect the coil? Keep in mind this thing was purring yesterday all I did was trailer it for 3.5hrs NOTHING WAS TOUCHED UNDER THE MOTOR BOX PERIOD.

Please help a bro!

JTR

03geetee
05-26-2011, 10:42 PM
Safety lanyard may be bad. If you use a test light make sure you can get flow through the switch when lanyard is attached. If you have the lanyard on both wires should be hot. If one wire is hot and the other is not the switch is bad. If it's bad connect the two wires together and bypass the switch. Mine is bypassed. I can spend 5k on a stereo but not $20 bucks on a switch. The switch is a pain and I think Lanyards are for the not so bright.

Make sure you are in neutral. If if not in neutral it won't even try to crank.

Make sure you have spark and fuel. See if you get spark to distributor by jumping coil wire.

Use starter fluid as mentioned above.

If flooded open throttle to wide open. Start and back down arter you get her running.

I seriously do not see major engine failure. Take a deep breath think clearly and don't let her defeat you.


Kyle no lanyard just the plug you have to pull out below the shifter. I jiggled it alot to see if it might not be making the connection, nothing. Also tried to move the little wires by what I think is the switch by the trans nothing.

I appreciate your help bro.

JTR

Kyle
05-26-2011, 10:44 PM
Trans switch would make no turn over period. That's fine.

I bet the lanyard switch is bad. Cut the wires on the stupid lanyard and connect them. I bet that's bad. It kill all the power to the coil.

Kyle
05-26-2011, 10:45 PM
Disregard above post no lanyard. Ok let me read what u got

Jerseydave
05-26-2011, 10:45 PM
Things to check

Remove dist cap, have someone crank over engine to make sure rotor is turning.
(pretty basic I know, but you could have a sheared dist gear, stripped timing gears, broken camshaft, etc.)

Check your smaller wires at coil, make sure they are on and tight. Make sure small wire from distributor to coil is not broken.

Does your engine have a red reset button for a circuit breaker?

Make sure the main harness to the engine is making a good connection (large round plug, usually black)

03geetee
05-26-2011, 10:46 PM
Forgive me, where is the lanyard? I dont have any type of key kill switch that I have to push in and clip anything on, where should I be looking?

JTR

Kyle
05-26-2011, 10:46 PM
Do you have a test light.

03geetee
05-26-2011, 10:47 PM
Things to check

Remove dist cap, have someone crank over engine to make sure rotor is turning.
(pretty basic I know, but you could have a sheared dist gear, stripped timing gears, broken camshaft, etc.)

Check your smaller wires at coil, make sure they are on and tight. Make sure small wire from distributor to coil is not broken.

Does your engine have a red reset button for a circuit breaker?

Make sure the main harness to the engine is making a good connection (large round plug, usually black)

Connections perfect. I have the big red 40amp button at the back, I pulled the cover and checked it but not sure what to check I cant really push it in it seems like its in already. I wasnt sure what was normal or not.

All coil connections are perfect, nice and tight as they were yesterday. Appreciate the help guys.

JTR

03geetee
05-26-2011, 10:48 PM
Do you have a test light.

Kyle not on me that sucks I know but tomorrow that is the first thing I am getting, didnt think I needed one after last nights driveway run. GOD THAT PISSES ME OFF!

JTR

Kyle
05-26-2011, 10:48 PM
Lanyards are not the metal button to rev in neutral. They are a small black plastic thing you clip a cord to and the cord to yourself. If switch is tripped then coil will not get spark.

Kyle
05-26-2011, 10:49 PM
What wires run to the gear shift.

03geetee
05-26-2011, 10:49 PM
Lanyards are not the metal button to rev in neutral. They are a small black plastic thing you clip a cord to and the cord to yourself. If switch is tripped then coil will not get spark.

Right I do not have such a device on my ancient toliet.

JTR

WilliM1940
05-26-2011, 10:50 PM
If you still have old style ignition, I would try a new condenser. And new points while you are in there. If you are electronic whatever is making and breaking your field would be suspect.

03geetee
05-26-2011, 10:51 PM
What wires run to the gear shift.

I believe the same wire that runs to the switch on the trans the other goes to ground on the solenoid. Could be wrong but thats where they look like to me.

JTR

Kyle
05-26-2011, 10:51 PM
Are you in your boat right now trying to figure thing out?

03geetee
05-26-2011, 10:52 PM
If you still have old style ignition, I would try a new condenser. And new points while you are in there. If you are electronic whatever is making and breaking your field would be suspect.

Electronic Ignition never had a problem ever, ran perfect yesterday.

All that is different is fresh fuel, and Autolite 24 plugs same gap as stock had. Would not start with plugs that made it run yesterday, tried it with those plugs this afternoon and nothing. Changed the plugs same result.

JTR

03geetee
05-26-2011, 10:53 PM
Are you in your boat right now trying to figure thing out?

In the house now so I can look online, its not far.

JTR

WilliM1940
05-26-2011, 10:57 PM
Forget the plugs and gas. Look for a spark at the coil outlet. No spark there, then none further downstream.

Kyle
05-26-2011, 10:57 PM
Pm sent. .....

03geetee
05-26-2011, 10:58 PM
Forget the plugs and gas. Look for a spark at the coil outlet. No spark there, then none further downstream.

Look at my earlier posts I have already determined no spark, with out a light how can I determine if the coil is not working or just being told not to work.

JTR

Table Rocker
05-26-2011, 11:13 PM
You really need a light. You could rig one up with some speaker wire and your stern light or any other 12v light.

JMPassch
05-26-2011, 11:20 PM
I was thinking kill switch as well but then read the rest of the posts. Good luck!

WilliM1940
05-26-2011, 11:23 PM
Nothing tells the coil not to work. Check for voltage on the input side of the coil with the key on, where your purple wire comes in. Should be about 11-12V not running. If that is there then put a plug in the coil wire and ground it on the block. Turning the engine over, do you have spark? I have never had a coil go bad, not saying its impossible, but your trigger is what initiates your spark. If you have no voltage at the input to the coil you are done. Now you have to trace it back to where the break is. In your case all the way back to the ignition switch through the dash panel around the back of the engine block to the purple input wire. One year I disconnected a wire replacing the tachometer. No spark. It daisy chains all the way up through there.

Kyle
05-26-2011, 11:55 PM
Feel free to call me back tomorrow. Get a test light in the morning and I will pick up an old 80's shop manual in the morning and we can continue to trace the wire running to the voltage regulator. Good luck.

Kyle
05-27-2011, 12:00 AM
Nothing tells the coil not to work. Check for voltage on the input side of the coil with the key on, where your purple wire comes in. Should be about 11-12V not running. If that is there then put a plug in the coil wire and ground it on the block. Turning the engine over, do you have spark? I have never had a coil go bad, not saying its impossible, but your trigger is what initiates your spark. If you have no voltage at the input to the coil you are done. Now you have to trace it back to where the break is. In your case all the way back to the ignition switch through the dash panel around the back of the engine block to the purple input wire. One year I disconnected a wire replacing the tachometer. No spark. It daisy chains all the way up through there.

We are without power to the coil. Coil did not jump spark when grounded to block. He is pulling the wire out of the loom and following it back to the helm. The voltage reg has no power. Regulator runs to coil and regulator was bypassed when the po put electronic ignition on.

10 brains are better than one. Just hope we can salvage his holiday weekend.

03geetee
05-27-2011, 12:29 AM
Here is my pathetic update....

There are two wires that connect on the same side of the voltage regulator. One is pinkish purple and runs into the loom and exits so it can connect to the positive side of the coil. The other is solid red and it appears to run from the same side of the voltage regulator to the side of the carb.


(this is not my exact boat, but see the two wires? My red and pinkish/purple wires were connected on the right side. Since that terminal broke is it a big deal if I mount them on the other side? Even possible?) Where does the red wire go???
http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/attachment.php?attachmentid=49748&stc=1&d=1248611783


Here is where it gets stupid. In the process of removing wires and testing things the side of the voltage regulator that both wires were hooked and bolted too broke off when tightening things down. Since there is no power running to this ceramic regulator can I just use the other side? God please I hope so because I dont think this part is laying around anywhere close.

What makes absolutely no sense to me is how is the voltage regulator sending power to the coil if it appears no power is going to the regulator since the only other wire that connects to it goes to the carb, is that hot?

With out a light which I will get tomorrow I am dead in the water. There was a loose wire that I checked while under the dash that appears to be coming out of the ignition. If this is the magic wire to power the coil then I maybe ok, but something tells me theres more to it then that. I wont know til I check it tomorrow and or disconnect it while cranking if I even can.

Did I completely screw myself by breaking the terminal off the regulator or can I just use the other side since it appears its just dummy rigged now anyway.

I hope that lose wire under the dash is the problem and the highway just beat it lose, but what still doesnt make sense is how the hell is the regulator getting power and then sending it to the coil?

Man I hate electric.

JTR

03geetee
05-27-2011, 12:30 AM
PS Kyle you are the bomb and a stand up guy for offering to call with you help!

Thank you.

JTR

Kyle
05-27-2011, 12:57 AM
The wire running to the carb is for the choke.

If the reg is bypassed and the dash wire and coil wire are the two that broke off then keep tracing. Trace the coil wire and carb wire back through the loom to rear of the engine and find out exactly where they go.

Btw some carbs have a ground in the harness and some just ground through the engine. So if you only see pos that's why.

You still have 2 days before everything closes. There is hope.

Kyle
05-27-2011, 01:32 AM
This piece here http://skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=RP119001 is for the points. To the oposite side will be fine. All you are doing is connecting the two wires. I get what you are saying now. I would cut the wires and connect them together and throw away this part as it's not needed with the electronic ignition. So you haven't royally screwed yourself yet.

Kyle
05-27-2011, 01:36 AM
Look on the floor for a missing nut from a guage that may have backed off while in tow and disconnected power somewhere.

Everything guage wise is piggy backed. Dig around there for a while. So far I see all you are out is a test light and a connector got the two wires off of the resistor or regulator.

Btw the wire that runs the ignition has nothing to do with the starter being able to turn over. That dash wire is the key right now.

Table Rocker
05-27-2011, 08:55 AM
The ceramic block with two terminals is a ballast resistor and is needed for most coils. It reduces the voltage going into the coil by approximately one half. Running full voltage full time to a coil without an internal ballast resistor will reduce the life of the coil and your points. Take a long look at it as the source of your trouble. It should have a wire on one end with full voltage coming in and a wire at the other end taking the lower voltage to the coil. There are plenty of electronic ignitions that use ballast resistors, it depends on whether or not your coil has an internal resistor.

Hollywood
05-27-2011, 09:33 AM
Table Rocker is right, first it's a ballast resistor and I do run one with my MSD coil and Prestolite EI conversion kit. This is in fact your problem. You can bypass it by just connecting everything together but you will burn up your coil.

Completely disconnect the ballast resistor and check it's OHM reading.
Completely disconnect the coil and check the OHM reading.

Report back, but you should be around .7-.8 on the ballast resistor. If it is broken you'll see a 1 or however "infinity" is represented by your meter. You can get ballast resistors at auto parts stores, your weekend will be fine.

03geetee
05-27-2011, 10:15 AM
Ok guys here is what I can tell you....

The battery has 12.66 volts or a little more sometimes. When cranking it drops to 10 or so.

The ballast resistor has 11.6 or so volts on the wires that are screwed to it now. The positive wire that runs from there to the coil also has 11.6 or so volts. There is a hot wire that is tucked up and taped off and is a heavy orange wire. This wire is hot and is taped up going to no where. Is this the hot wire that should go on one side of the ballast resister and the other two on the other side? This is not how it was wired when it ran just fine, it has been taped off and the resistor bypassed for the life of the boat as I have owned it.

If you are right and I need the resistor I must have toasted the coil, if that is the case I need a new resistor and new coil.

Let me go check the ohms.

JTR

Kyle
05-27-2011, 10:19 AM
Not all electronic ignitions require a ballast resistor. Mine never had one.

Your electronic ignition may have said to disguard the resistor in the instructions.

I'm guessing the coil is bad.

TxsRiverRat
05-27-2011, 10:25 AM
...........

responding in morse code now, kyle?

tph
05-27-2011, 10:31 AM
The ceramic block with two terminals is a ballast resistor and is needed for most coils. It reduces the voltage going into the coil by approximately one half. Running full voltage full time to a coil without an internal ballast resistor will reduce the life of the coil and your points. Take a long look at it as the source of your trouble. It should have a wire on one end with full voltage coming in and a wire at the other end taking the lower voltage to the coil. There are plenty of electronic ignitions that use ballast resistors, it depends on whether or not your coil has an internal resistor.

I run a Pertronix EI and Coil. IIRC the directions said to bypass the resistor as shown.

Kyle
05-27-2011, 10:33 AM
A 3 wire electronic ignition has to use a resistor a 2 wire does not use a resistor.

Hollywood
05-27-2011, 10:38 AM
Some of the EI kits come with a new coil (with additional/appropriate amount of internal resistance) therefore you are told to bypass the ballast resistor. You can continue to use the the old, lower resistance coil supplemented by a ballast resistor or resistor wire. Either way you should have about 2 ohms of resistance before the distributor, typically 1.3 on the coil and .7 from the ballast resistor.

11.66 volts at the distributor is too high. I'm guessing you have shorted out your coil.

EI conversion kits fail too, if so you'd have to put points and condenser back in to save the weekend, some involve a little modification to fit your prestolite distributor.

Table Rocker
05-27-2011, 11:42 AM
I run a Pertronix EI and Coil. IIRC the directions said to bypass the resistor as shown.
If it did, your new coil had an internal resistor.

TLR67
05-27-2011, 12:56 PM
Corroded Negative Cable???? Happened to me...

DooSPX
05-27-2011, 01:08 PM
Try a new 2011 TT190, problem fixed

want to buy me one?

03geetee
05-27-2011, 01:16 PM
Ok first of all thank all of you who offered help especially Kyle for calling me late late late last night!

SHE IS ALIVE!!!!!!!

Ballast resistor was just fine hooked the way it was, but the previous owner did not upgrade his coil with an internal resistor so kablooey to the old coil. Went into town after verifying power to the coil and 100% positive no spark and located a marine coil for a 351 used on a boat with electronic ignition and a built in resistor. Not only did the boat turn over instantly but after a lake run (finally on the water) she hot starts better then ever before which leads me to beleive that was the cause of my poor hot starts earlier. Runs at 140 all day, no funny trans noises and after a 25 min cruise I opened her up and shes is flying.

Again thank you to all who helped salvage my weekend!!!

Pics later this weekend!

JTR

DooSPX
05-27-2011, 01:19 PM
I'm soo glad you got the boat working well and you enjoyed it...
That is great that Kyle called you last night! He is a stand up guy... most on here are....

Congrats and enjoy your weekend.

CantRepeat
05-27-2011, 01:23 PM
Dang, I was getting ready to offer you a $300 dollar bill for it!


Glad you got it running. Hope you enjoy the weekend.

supturb89
05-27-2011, 01:47 PM
Sounds like this was a blessing in disguise. Have a safe weekend!

Table Rocker
05-27-2011, 02:05 PM
Way to stay with it, I am glad you are running!

03geetee
05-27-2011, 02:07 PM
The ceramic block with two terminals is a ballast resistor and is needed for most coils. It reduces the voltage going into the coil by approximately one half. Running full voltage full time to a coil without an internal ballast resistor will reduce the life of the coil and your points. Take a long look at it as the source of your trouble. It should have a wire on one end with full voltage coming in and a wire at the other end taking the lower voltage to the coil. There are plenty of electronic ignitions that use ballast resistors, it depends on whether or not your coil has an internal resistor.

You had it brother you had it!

JTR

Table Rocker
05-27-2011, 02:19 PM
To all those out there, spend $5 on one of these and get a can of starting fluid. Two very handy things to have for diagnosing problems. Ten dollars spent that will save you $$$ in the long run.
http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/370x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_1055.jpg
http://www.harborfreight.com/automotive-motorcycle/diagnostics/extra-long-circuit-tester-43700.html

Table Rocker
05-27-2011, 02:21 PM
You had it brother you had it!

JTREven a broken clock is right twice a day, I won't let it go to my head.

ski/hunt
05-27-2011, 06:46 PM
The events of this thread and how quickly those with true knowledge or even ideas to "help" came to rescue is exactly why I love this place!! You guys ROCK!!!
Have a great weekend ya'll

03geetee
05-27-2011, 06:54 PM
The events of this thread and how quickly those with true knowledge or even ideas to "help" came to rescue is exactly why I love this place!! You guys ROCK!!!
Have a great weekend ya'll

Took the words right out of my mouth...couldnt be happier. I try to help the best I can because it does suck to be the guy with the problem sometimes, but not when you have such a wealth of knowledge that this site offers.

Thank you so much all.

I may have to start mailing some beer!

JTR

JimN
05-27-2011, 09:15 PM
To all those out there, spend $5 on one of these and get a can of starting fluid. Two very handy things to have for diagnosing problems. Ten dollars spent that will save you $$$ in the long run.
http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/370x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_1055.jpg
http://www.harborfreight.com/automotive-motorcycle/diagnostics/extra-long-circuit-tester-43700.html

The one caution I would add is that a test light with an incandescent bulb shouldn't be used on circuits that are low current, e.g., low voltage outputs from an ECM. For relays, starter solenoids, light circuits, etc, these are fine but for low current circuits, use a test light that has an LED.

Table Rocker
05-27-2011, 09:44 PM
The one caution I would add is that a test light with an incandescent bulb shouldn't be used on circuits that are low current, e.g., low voltage outputs from an ECM. For relays, starter solenoids, light circuits, etc, these are fine but for low current circuits, use a test light that has an LED.It's a good thing most of my stuff is old or I would have blown it up by unhooking the battery to test the alternator, etc.

Jim, I have been wanting to let you know how much I appreciate your input on this forum. When I see you weighing in on a thread I feel like the problem will be solved. I do what I can based on owning a '69 Bronco, a '79 CJ5, etc (the list is long and gets embarrassing), but you have knowledge of diagnostics on these specific machines and it is great that you spend so much time helping the rest of us.

03geetee
05-27-2011, 10:15 PM
X2 Jim is da man!

JTR

TOO-TALL
05-27-2011, 11:57 PM
The events of this thread and how quickly those with true knowledge or even ideas to "help" came to rescue is exactly why I love this place!! You guys ROCK!!!
Have a great weekend ya'll

I agree..




03geetee, I'm glad she's running.

Kyle
05-28-2011, 12:05 AM
Have a good weekend. Glad you got her figured out. No test light or volt meter makes it very hard to track things down.