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willyt
05-17-2011, 10:58 AM
so imagine this scenario with me for a minute. Great day on the river/lake... you're just driving because you blew your ACL out this winter (like me...), some cute girls on the boat, buddies havin a good time... one of them is trying to impress the ladies... goes for a tantrum to blind...

Doesn't make it and digs the heel edge. bam. out cold face down in the water.

I usually run in a river too narrow to turn the boat around in (especially loaded with ballast). So even in an emergency situation it would take me 15-20 seconds to get back to the rider, which is a long time if someone isnít breathing.

I donít know if this is very common, considering Iíve taken some massive heel edge diggers behind a 40th anniversary edition star learning hs fs 3s. That being saidÖ Iíve also fallen 12 feet climbing onto rock and didnít have a concussion (CAT scan confirmed) so I must not be very prone to them (I think I have homer Simpson syndrome Ė if youíve seen that episode).

With people starting to load their stars up with 5-7k worth of ballast, how much longer before something like this happens again?
http://www.wakeboarder.com/news/cory.phtml
http://www.rbbi.com/folders/acc/localski.htm

I donít want to make light of these tragic situations, just thinking that we (and especially me, since Iím the DD this season bc of the ACL tear) should be a little more prepared. I know there was the scary, scary day thread a year ago but I think itís time for me to get some edumacation on CPR. Lots of checklists on this site, but Iíve never seen CPR training on any of them.

This will inevitably bring up the helmet discussion tooÖ my view are I let the rider decide, but always have one available (even I used it last season when trying TS FS 7ísÖ unsuccessfully. Very... unsuccessfully)

So, a few questions come out of this.

How many of you have CPR training, or always have someone on the boat with CPR training?
Anyone ever been knocked out when youíve been out?
Whatís your rule on helmets?

kskonn
05-17-2011, 11:07 AM
so imagine this scenario with me for a minute. Great day on the river/lake... you're just driving because you blew your ACL out this winter (like me...), some cute girls on the boat, buddies havin a good time... one of them is trying to impress the ladies... goes for a tantrum to blind...

Doesn't make it and digs the heel edge. bam. out cold face down in the water.

I usually run in a river too narrow to turn the boat around in (especially loaded with ballast). So even in an emergency situation it would take me 15-20 seconds to get back to the rider, which is a long time if someone isnít breathing.

I donít know if this is very common, considering Iíve taken some massive heel edge diggers behind a 40th anniversary edition star learning hs fs 3s. That being saidÖ Iíve also fallen 12 feet climbing onto rock and didnít have a concussion (CAT scan confirmed) so I must not be very prone to them (I think I have homer Simpson syndrome Ė if youíve seen that episode).

With people starting to load their stars up with 5-7k worth of ballast, how much longer before something like this happens again?
http://www.wakeboarder.com/news/cory.phtml
http://www.rbbi.com/folders/acc/localski.htm

I donít want to make light of these tragic situations, just thinking that we (and especially me, since Iím the DD this season bc of the ACL tear) should be a little more prepared. I know there was the scary, scary day thread a year ago but I think itís time for me to get some edumacation on CPR. Lots of checklists on this site, but Iíve never seen CPR training on any of them.

This will inevitably bring up the helmet discussion tooÖ my view are I let the rider decide, but always have one available (even I used it last season when trying TS FS 7ísÖ unsuccessfully. Very... unsuccessfully)

So, a few questions come out of this.

How many of you have CPR training, or always have someone on the boat with CPR training?
Anyone ever been knocked out when youíve been out?
Whatís your rule on helmets?

I have CPR training from my lifeguard days, but not current certification. The numbers on CPR are depressing, something like only effective 4% of the time outside of a medical facility.

I let the Rider decide on the helmet. I am thinking about starting to wear one. I had a friend who blew his ear drum out on a hard fall, he is a pilot and could not work for around 6 weeks so he always wears one now. I thought I blew my ear drum out last week, luckily I did not, but it scared me enough to think about wearing one. I would definitely be wearing one if I was trying the tricks you guys are.

thatsmrmastercraft
05-17-2011, 11:24 AM
I haven't re-certified in CPR in eons, but will have to get that done. I was out cold years ago and my boat driver had me half way in the boat before I came to. Everyone who wakeboards behind my boat has shosen to wear a helmet.

1redTA
05-17-2011, 11:24 AM
Is the success rate that low???? It cant hurt and helps to provide oxygen to the patient till BLS or ALS arrives. Activation of the EMS system is the key to helping a victim.

I would definately look into getting certified for CPR with AED, the class doesn't last long and his nice to know. The biggest problem with CPR training is they change the compression to breaths cycles all the time.....to sell more books

agarabaghi
05-17-2011, 11:32 AM
People wear helmets to wakeboard behind the boat? Strange, I just dont really see them doing much good against water. Now if we are talking sliders that a different issue.

I have not knocked myself out, but when i snapped my femur my body went into shock and i was in and out of consciousness. My friend who was driving turned the boat around, and he and my father dragged me onto the platform until the ambulance came... I guess i was pretty close to dying...

You just have to be prepared for everything. Having a spotter is one of the most important things, and can really affect how fast you get back to the rider.

kskonn
05-17-2011, 11:36 AM
http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW011/9273/35323/372221.html?d=dmtHMSContent

looks like according to this articl it is 2-30% depending on reason for CPR, experience of person performing the CPR etc... It is still your best bet on the water if someone is drowning.

dfd22120
05-17-2011, 11:58 AM
I may be slightly biased being a Paramedic and CPR instructor but I would be happy if everyone were CPR certified. Even the new hands-only CPR is much better than nothing. The previous posts are correct the save percentages are low, but as the last posted commented it greatly depends on the cause of the cardiac arrest as well as pre existing conditions. I would think it is safe to say most waterskiers are not in nursing homes with multiple medical conditions. Therefore the chance of saving a person under 60 with immediate CPR is greatly increased.

The cause of the injury is a huge determining factor in save rates. If you take a hard fall and break your neck causing the portion of your spinal cord that controls breathing to be severed, CPR will not save you. But the more than likely scenerio of taking a hard fall and being unconscious face down for a short period of time will have a very high survival success rate with proper CPR administered immediately.

The training is never wasted!!!! You never know when you may need it to save a loved one away from the water either!!!

GT500 MC
05-17-2011, 12:08 PM
I may be slightly biased being a Paramedic and CPR instructor but I would be happy if everyone were CPR certified. Even the new hands-only CPR is much better than nothing. The previous posts are correct the save percentages are low, but as the last posted commented it greatly depends on the cause of the cardiac arrest as well as pre existing conditions. I would think it is safe to say most waterskiers are not in nursing homes with multiple medical conditions. Therefore the chance of saving a person under 60 with immediate CPR is greatly increased.

The cause of the injury is a huge determining factor in save rates. If you take a hard fall and break your neck causing the portion of your spinal cord that controls breathing to be severed, CPR will not save you. But the more than likely scenerio of taking a hard fall and being unconscious face down for a short period of time will have a very high survival success rate with proper CPR administered immediately.

The training is never wasted!!!! You never know when you may need it to save a loved one away from the water either!!!

Well-said. If the time comes to use CPR and your recipient becomes part of the 4% that is saved, that's all that matters. It's like the unemployment rate at 10%--personally, the unemployment rate is either 0% or 100%--I'm employed or I'm not.

Jeff d
05-17-2011, 12:08 PM
Is the success rate that low????

I'm a volunteer firefighter and yes the success rate is pretty low. The couple of people that I've been involved in "bringing back" over the years have pretty much been vegetables after their brains were deprived of oxygen that long.

Most of the people I do CPR on have problems that are "incompatible with life" though like drug overdoses, heart failure, etc. and we have to get paged out and drive to them which takes at least 5-10 minutes while they usually sit oxygen deprived. I'd imagine your success rate would be much higher on a person who was in good enough health to be wakeboarding and just took in a lung full of water while unconscious a few seconds before. That's probably about the most ideal situation for CPR success.

The new American Heart Association protocol for the lay person (Non Medical or EMS) is chest compressions only, no rescue breathing. The logic is that chest compressions alone with an open airway will move air in and out of the lungs on their own.

So, I say get some training but if faced with the above situation (unconscious, drowned, no pulse) even without training open their mouth, roll them to the side briefly to try to get some water out and start chest compressions while someone gets the boat moving toward the nearest place to get help. As soon as you can get phone service call 911. If you place a rolled up towel under their neck it will aide in keeping their airway open during the compressions. You have to push in 2" at a rate of 100+ per minute which will likely crack ribs so don't be shy it could save their life. Take shifts with someone else on the boat if possible to stay fresh because you will have to continue until more qualified help arrives. In most scenarios with no breathing and no pulse they have no chance if you don't act immediately.

TxsRiverRat
05-17-2011, 12:16 PM
If you are performing such exotic stunts, I think you should:

1. Wear a helmet
2. Make sure the rider has CURRENT health insurance
3. Make sure you are in a location that provides a quick pick up and where they will not get hit by another boat
4. Make sure your boaters insurance would cover you in the event of a lawsuit
5. Have an emergency plan

My .02 cents

PS: The only folks required to wear a helmet in our club are the jumpers, but wakeboarders can be considered part of that group.

kskonn
05-17-2011, 12:21 PM
People wear helmets to wakeboard behind the boat? Strange, I just dont really see them doing much good against water. Now if we are talking sliders that a different issue.

I have not knocked myself out, but when i snapped my femur my body went into shock and i was in and out of consciousness. My friend who was driving turned the boat around, and he and my father dragged me onto the platform until the ambulance came... I guess i was pretty close to dying...

You just have to be prepared for everything. Having a spotter is one of the most important things, and can really affect how fast you get back to the rider.

I have seen people knocked out by water, when you are going 25-30 mph and are 8-10 ft in the air that water gets pretty hard.

agarabaghi
05-17-2011, 12:46 PM
I know there has been many discussion as to whether a helmet does more harm than good on the water. Something about the water displacing and slamming the helmet into the head of the rider. I don't really know, just stuff ive heard.

Im not sure i know any wakeboarder that rides at 30... even the pros i know. i think 27 was the fastest ive had to pull anyone... @ 83ft out

2RLAKE
05-17-2011, 12:54 PM
scary stuff ... assume you were up the Licking so it's definately not easy to turn around quick

I did buy a helmet for my kids last year ... i've taking some nasty faceplants barefooting over the years, but never knocked myself out

kskonn
05-17-2011, 12:56 PM
I don't think anyone rides at 30 but I was more referencing the speed you might see cutting hard backside into the wake.

I think rusty used to ride at 29 at 90 ft, not 100% sure though.

In the case of my buddy the helmet does a lot of good considering his primary concern is a blown ear drum, it keeps the water out on impact. Other than that I have no experience. I know if I was riding rails I would wear one 100% of the time.

pmkkdx
05-17-2011, 12:57 PM
If you are performing such exotic stunts, I think you should:

1. Wear a helmet
2. Make sure the rider has CURRENT health insurance
3. Make sure you are in a location that provides a quick pick up and where they will not get hit by another boat
4. Make sure your boaters insurance would cover you in the event of a lawsuit
5. Have an emergency plan

My .02 cents

PS: The only folks required to wear a helmet in our club are the jumpers, but wakeboarders can be considered part of that group.

^~ I second this!

I am surprised no comments regarding wearing life jackets though on the first link provided!!! "Apparently Kraut was riding without a life vest,"

kskonn
05-17-2011, 12:58 PM
^~ I second this!

I am surprised no comments regarding wearing life jackets though!!!

Life jackets are automatic for me and anyone riding behind my boat, I guess that is why it did not cross my mind.

pmkkdx
05-17-2011, 01:00 PM
(I edited including the quote from the link)

thatsmrmastercraft
05-17-2011, 01:20 PM
Speed isn't the only factor in getting hurt in a fall. The time I was knocked I was going slow on a set of shoe skis I made. Took a wave without leaning back far enough and did a quick faceplant. Got banged up some in the early years trying to learn to foot, but never did any permanent damage.

kskonn
05-17-2011, 01:25 PM
Yea that is a good point. I have also seen a rider fall hard causing a foot to come out of his wakeboard. Once one foot came out the board whipped around and hit him in the head. I have also seen a couple people break ankles the same way. Foot comes and board whips around and hit the ankle on the leg that came out of the board. It is definitely a dangerous sport.

dfd22120
05-17-2011, 01:33 PM
The success rate for CPR is low and I have had my share of patients who did not survive or survived in a vegatative state. Now for the good news........... In the past 6 months I have been part of 3 successful resuscitations, two walked out of the hospital and are living the same lives they did before the event. The third was this past Saturday so the outcome is not determined yet but the prognosis is good. As much as I would like to think my skills saved these people I know the true savior was that all three had immediate CPR started by normal citizens trained in CPR. The one Saturday also had an AED applied by the bystanders and delivered a shock. When we arrived the patient had a pulse. Please don't underestimate the value of knowing CPR.

TxsRiverRat
05-17-2011, 01:35 PM
^~ I second this!

I am surprised no comments regarding wearing life jackets though on the first link provided!!! "Apparently Kraut was riding without a life vest,"

Thanks!

BTW - I didn't mention a life jacket because it should be a requirement, and it's the law unless operating on a public lake in TX.

Iskidaily
05-17-2011, 01:40 PM
For those of you that use or encourage helmets, I would be interested in helmet recommendations. Getting my son to don a brain bucket will be challenging, but as he goes higher and faster, it sounds like there may be a time to add a lid to the equipment list

76S&S
05-17-2011, 02:00 PM
I had the scary, scary thread about a year ago. My son was knocked out working on a heel 3.

We still don't always wear helmets, but we do wear them when learning new tricks. I like the one I wear for the ear protection as I've popped both ear drums at different times.

Iski - if you're going to try to get your son to wear one, go for the most stylish offering out there. Which to me is the ShredReady.

wheelerlake
05-17-2011, 02:03 PM
I have been an ICU nurse for over 20 years with a lot of neuro experience, plus my EMT experiences and jobs got me through college. Imagine my family at the cottage-no diving off the dock or the boats, FEET FIRST, wear your life jacket if you step out the door, all the rules according to what I saw happen to others I took care of. I always have a back-up plan in my mind what to do if....

It's a very good life lesson to take basic CPR and a first aid course. If that person took enough of a hit to knock them unconscious, when there's a head injury you ALWAYS suspect a neck injury. So when that person is floating face down you need to know what to do when you turn them over and get them onto the deck or (shudder) pull them into the boat to work on them, or you could do more damage to their spinal cord. Yes, if they don't have a pulse or respirs they are also done, but you have to consider the cord. I haven't figured out how to get a full-sized long board on the MC yet but maybe an upside-down ski, paddle or wakeboard would stabilize temporarily. Paddles would make excellent temporary splints for fractured extremities. Then, who would you call, where would you meet them, etc. Just have a plan. Some of these lakes are big and could take a long time to get/get to help. Long response times, long way across the lake. Minutes count BIG when you're saving brain.

Too many things can go wrong in a heartbeat. Keep those around you safe, or at least know what to do when they do go wrong. CPR and First aid classes are life-long lessons everyone should have.

Ole Miss Rebels
05-17-2011, 02:20 PM
I have been an ICU nurse for over 20 years with a lot of neuro experience, plus my EMT experiences and jobs got me through college. Imagine my family at the cottage-no diving off the dock or the boats, FEET FIRST, wear your life jacket if you step out the door, all the rules according to what I saw happen to others I took care of. I always have a back-up plan in my mind what to do if....

It's a very good life lesson to take basic CPR and a first aid course. If that person took enough of a hit to knock them unconscious, when there's a head injury you ALWAYS suspect a neck injury. So when that person is floating face down you need to know what to do when you turn them over and get them onto the deck or (shudder) pull them into the boat to work on them, or you could do more damage to their spinal cord. Yes, if they don't have a pulse or respirs they are also done, but you have to consider the cord. I haven't figured out how to get a full-sized long board on the MC yet but maybe an upside-down ski, paddle or wakeboard would stabilize temporarily. Paddles would make excellent temporary splints for fractured extremities. Then, who would you call, where would you meet them, etc. Just have a plan. Some of these lakes are big and could take a long time to get/get to help. Long response times, long way across the lake. Minutes count BIG when you're saving brain.

Too many things can go wrong in a heartbeat. Keep those around you safe, or at least know what to do when they do go wrong. CPR and First aid classes are life-long lessons everyone should have.

excellent information and well presented. i will keep what you said in the front of my mind when something goes wrong.

Patrick Hardy
05-17-2011, 02:48 PM
Thanks!

BTW - I didn't mention a life jacket because it should be a requirement, and it's the law unless operating on a public lake in TX.

Do you mean a Private lake in Texas?

pmkkdx
05-17-2011, 02:55 PM
Thanks!

BTW - I didn't mention a life jacket because it should be a requirement, and it's the law unless operating on a public lake in TX.


don't you mean PRIVATE lake?

and yes, I agree it should be a requirement ...

ShamrockIV
05-17-2011, 02:56 PM
i would call 911 and pray!!!

Center Hill is aways from EMT's and i am sure a chopper would take a few min

Patrick Hardy
05-17-2011, 02:56 PM
It's a very good life lesson to take basic CPR and a first aid course. If that person took enough of a hit to knock them unconscious, when there's a head injury you ALWAYS suspect a neck injury. So when that person is floating face down you need to know what to do when you turn them over and get them onto the deck or (shudder) pull them into the boat to work on them, or you could do more damage to their spinal cord. Yes, if they don't have a pulse or respirs they are also done, but you have to consider the cord. I haven't figured out how to get a full-sized long board on the MC yet but maybe an upside-down ski, paddle or wakeboard would stabilize temporarily. Paddles would make excellent temporary splints for fractured extremities. Then, who would you call, where would you meet them, etc. Just have a plan. Some of these lakes are big and could take a long time to get/get to help. Long response times, long way across the lake. Minutes count BIG when you're saving brain.

Too many things can go wrong in a heartbeat. Keep those around you safe, or at least know what to do when they do go wrong. CPR and First aid classes are life-long lessons everyone should have.

I completely agree. CPR classes are a great investment of your time. The back board is a interesting idea. The new 2011 Centurion Carbon Pro boat actually has a built-in tournament-safety backboard. It is great that the manufacturers are also thinking about this.

Hollywood
05-17-2011, 03:10 PM
Great thread, learn this stuff before it's too late.

TxsRiverRat
05-17-2011, 03:28 PM
don't you mean PRIVATE lake?

and yes, I agree it should be a requirement ...

Whoops - yes, I meant private lake. LOL sorry!

Iskidaily
05-17-2011, 03:39 PM
I had the scary, scary thread about a year ago. My son was knocked out working on a heel 3.

We still don't always wear helmets, but we do wear them when learning new tricks. I like the one I wear for the ear protection as I've popped both ear drums at different times.

Iski - if you're going to try to get your son to wear one, go for the most stylish offering out there. Which to me is the ShredReady.

Hey Thanks 76. That sounds like good advice because kids respond better to "cool" than they respond to "safe"!

gatorguy
05-17-2011, 07:46 PM
I haven't figured out how to get a full-sized long board on the MC yet

Looks like you will have to start surfing. I have a 5'3" liquid force backboard on the boat at all times. Sometimes I even fill my boat with 1500# of H2O and surf on my backboard. It's a blast.

I'm an anesthesiologist and was a member of a search and rescue team in Utah. Needless to say I have been part of many many many in and out of hospital resuscitation. One of the last ones was in my front yard after a lady rolled her mustang at 80mph, she died-no seat belt on and was ejected and crushed by the car.

I think there are a few key things to know and do.

1. Learn as much as you can about everything in the world, medical and non-medical. Then you will be ready for anything. It drives me nuts when I'm with a friend and they have car trouble and I help them, and while trying to explain how the engine works they look at me like I'm crazy and tell me how they don't have any interest in learning, and that they will just pay someone else to fix it.

2. Make the others around you learn it too. I can be the best Doc in the world but if I'm out cold in the lake or at the bottom of a cliff I'll have a heck of a hard time working on myself.

3. Practice everything. Fire drills with your kids, home invasion, lost kid at the store, self rescue techniques off the rock if you climb, changing a flat, you get the idea. You are probably only 1/2 as good as your best practice session when it's the real thing and you are under stress.

4. Come prepared. Tools, 1st aid kit, phone, light, knife, etc... I just put together a really high speed trauma kit that fits in a backpack. I have an endotrachial tube to fit each person in the family, ACLS meds, IV stuff, suture, trach kit. Basically everything but and electronic medical record. Again its all only as good as the training of those trying to use it. I put it together specifically for my Lake Powell trip when we will be over an hour by speed boat from the nearest marina. Hope I don't have to use it.

A note on success rates and CPR. The success of CPR in a witnessed collapse is almost 3 times greater than for one that is non-witnessed. Survival rates decrease exponentially with every passing minute, so this is the time for a power turn. In kids the most likely cause of collapse is a respiratory event like choking. In old people it's usually cardiac. In the OP's example trauma is the cause and then think head and neck injury.

Lastly: Just use your brain. If your ego is bigger then your brain, expect to get hurt. I did, I found myself piled up at the bottom of a cliff after falling 75ft onto my head on some rocks. All for a girl in college who left me in the ER and wouldn't return my calls because she thought she killed me. A pneumothorax (collapsed lung), a few cracked ribs and a bunch of stitches in my mellon and some really bad road rash on my head neck back and arms, I actually got smarter. I didn't let newbies belay me anymore. Just saying we are our own worst enemy most of the time.

Jerseydave
05-17-2011, 08:12 PM
I wakeboard and foil, and at the advise of another foiler I now wear a GATH helmet.
Fits great, very lightweight, less bulky than other helmets. Protects your ears too, no flaps to lose.

66730

1redTA
05-17-2011, 08:50 PM
I was shocked at the success rate because some of the fellow firefighters have had a pretty good sucess rate on Ft Campbell, especially when dealing with active duty personnel ( tend to be in good shape ). I have been an EMT since 2006 after recovering from the wreck I had in June 2005. Early activation of the EMS system is key

motorowlands
05-17-2011, 10:09 PM
This post couldn't have come at a better time for me!

I'm getting back into boating after being out of it for 19yrs and back then I was bullet proof, at least thought I was. I don't bounce right up any more, things tend to tear and break these days. Breaking legs, getting knocked out didn't even cross my mind, my only worry was getting water in holes I didn't want it in!

I will definitely be buying a helmet, some medical supplies/first-aid kit and preparing a safety plan that I will review with everyone who gets in my boat.