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Deron Crook
05-12-2011, 10:29 PM
I have a 2006 Mastercraft, X2 and the problem is that it will run for a few seconds and cut off. First of all let me say that I sprayed fogging oil into the air intake last year when I winterized it. Do you think this could be the problem?
My first thought was the kill switch. But it was hooked up properly. My second thought was the automatic choke was not opening up.
What do you guys suggest?

3event
05-12-2011, 10:34 PM
Check the battery terminals and make sure your cables are nice and tight.

Deron Crook
05-12-2011, 10:41 PM
Checked and the terminals are tight. Any more suggestions?

broncotw
05-12-2011, 11:01 PM
Fuel Pump???

rhythm720
05-12-2011, 11:47 PM
Check the battery terminals and make sure your cables are nice and tight.

That would not make a difference, if the boat starts, then the alternator would take over, assuming that your alternator is working properly. Once your boat starts, you can remove your battery cables and your boat will stay running.

Im guessing its bad fuel or fuel pump. Have you cleaned your air filter?

sand2snow22
05-13-2011, 12:12 AM
Fuel Pump???

X 2........

Deron Crook
05-13-2011, 06:19 AM
Ok, here's an update. I have bypassed the kill swith. Checked the battery for lose connections and it still will not start.
What is happening is once the engine starts it bogs down and the engine dies, or it will run for a few seconds. Do you think the automatic choke is sticking?
When I turn the key over (to the point where the engine is not being turned over) you can hear the fuel pump working.
Any pointers to solving this problem?

CantRepeat
05-13-2011, 06:35 AM
Ok, here's an update. I have bypassed the kill swith. Checked the battery for lose connections and it still will not start.
What is happening is once the engine starts it bogs down and the engine dies, or it will run for a few seconds. Do you think the automatic choke is sticking?
When I turn the key over (to the point where the engine is not being turned over) you can hear the fuel pump working.
Any pointers to solving this problem?

I do not believe your boat has a choke. Clogged fuel filter maybe?

Jerseydave
05-13-2011, 07:59 AM
Your boat does not have a choke......or a carburetor.

Sounds like a lack of fuel or fuel pressure. Or spark plugs fouled with fogging oil.

-remove plugs, inspect or replace them
-fill fuel tank, this will eliminate the fuel filter as a possible problem
-check fuel pressure at fuel rail with a gauge.

FourFourty
05-13-2011, 08:18 AM
That would not make a difference, if the boat starts, then the alternator would take over, assuming that your alternator is working properly. Once your boat starts, you can remove your battery cables and your boat will stay running.


Great in theory, but it doesnt work that way for very long. As soon as you take the regulating load (battery) out of that circuit, the alternator looses its ability to balance the voltage in that circuit. It needs the accumulation effect that the battery provides in order to work properly. Loose battery connections could most certainly cause a concern like this..... Its unlikely because it will obviously crank over, however, I have seen excessive voltage drop between a batt terminal and cable do this before. Bad connection was causing the ECU to only get 10-11 volts, which was causing run issues.

Ok, here's an update. I have bypassed the kill swith. Checked the battery for lose connections and it still will not start.
What is happening is once the engine starts it bogs down and the engine dies, or it will run for a few seconds. Do you think the automatic choke is sticking?
When I turn the key over (to the point where the engine is not being turned over) you can hear the fuel pump working.
Any pointers to solving this problem?

No choke on your boat....

I would check your fuel pressure. This sounds like a classic case of pump runs, but doesnt create enough flow to keep the engine running. When you turn your key on, the ECU will cycle the fuel pump for a few seconds and that little bit of fuel that the engine gets before it needs it, will be just enough for it to start, and then it immediately gets ahead of the failing fuel pump, and then dies....

FourFourty
05-13-2011, 08:21 AM
Just occured to me....

What is the condition of your fuel??????? If you didnt drain the fuel tank last fall, that would be the first thing I would do. Get fresh fuel in it, especially if it had E10 in it before....

Dball
05-13-2011, 08:30 AM
I second fouled plugs

psychobilly
05-13-2011, 08:32 AM
Have you read through the trouble shooting section of this yet?

ftp://ftp2.indmar.us/Operator%27s%20Manuals/2006%20Operator%27s%20Manual.pdf

Table Rocker
05-13-2011, 08:37 AM
If you have a valve on top of your fuel tank, make 100% sure you didn't close it when winterizing/changing the fuel filter.

JimN
05-13-2011, 08:40 AM
That would not make a difference, if the boat starts, then the alternator would take over, assuming that your alternator is working properly. Once your boat starts, you can remove your battery cables and your boat will stay running.

Im guessing its bad fuel or fuel pump. Have you cleaned your air filter?

DO NOT REMOVE THE BATTERY CABLES WHILE THE ENGINE IS RUNNING!!

That was OK when the electrical system on an engine was extremely basic but if this is done with anything with an ECM/fuel injection system, it can cause some really expensive damage.

Footin
05-13-2011, 08:44 AM
Fuel pump.

CantRepeat
05-13-2011, 08:44 AM
Your boat does not have a choke......or a carburetor.

Sounds like a lack of fuel or fuel pressure. Or spark plugs fouled with fogging oil.

-remove plugs, inspect or replace them
-fill fuel tank, this will eliminate the fuel filter as a possible problem
-check fuel pressure at fuel rail with a gauge.

I don't think filling the tank up would eliminate the possibility that the filter is clogged.

FourFourty
05-13-2011, 08:51 AM
DO NOT REMOVE THE BATTERY CABLES WHILE THE ENGINE IS RUNNING!!

That was OK when the electrical system on an engine was extremely basic but if this is done with anything with an ECM/fuel injection system, it can cause some really expensive damage.

True statement!

JimN
05-13-2011, 08:54 AM
Ok, here's an update. I have bypassed the kill swith. Checked the battery for lose connections and it still will not start.
What is happening is once the engine starts it bogs down and the engine dies, or it will run for a few seconds. Do you think the automatic choke is sticking?
When I turn the key over (to the point where the engine is not being turned over) you can hear the fuel pump working.
Any pointers to solving this problem?

You don't have enough fuel going to the injectors to keep it running. Fuel pressure test at Key ON/Engine OFF and while crank/run will show the pressure dropping. It may develop pressure at Key ON, but it won't maintain it. If you remove the pump, look at the filter (color and look for debris). If the air is extremely dry, use a static strap and don't scoot around on the carpet with pants that can cause static electricity discharge.

You need to check for fuel pressure and spark. If you have good fuel pressure, it could ba an issue with the crank/cam position sensor(s), depending on which is has. Take a fuel sample when you check the pressure- the correct pressure gauge will have a bleeder valve and a clear vinyl tube that can be used to collect fuel. Let the fuel sit in a clean, clear container and look for cloudy fuel and/or water settling out at the bottom.

As mentioned, you don't have an automatic choke or carburetor. Fuel injection systems accomplish the same thing but how they do it is completely different. If you don't know how to diagnose a fuel injection system, it will be an extremely slow, frustrating and expensive process.

Don't throw parts at this problem. It's illogical, expensive and will only show where the problem is when you have replaced the last part. Fuel injection isn't a means to keep people from working on their own vehicles, it's because emission standards were mandated. In addition, the fact that this has an ECM and sensors means diagnosis can be performed objectively, if you know how.

JimN
05-13-2011, 08:56 AM
I don't think filling the tank up would eliminate the possibility that the filter is clogged.

If there's almost no gas in the tank, it all has to go through the filter but over about 1/2 full, it flows in above the filter. It may run if filled and at that point, I would check the filter.

CantRepeat
05-13-2011, 09:19 AM
If there's almost no gas in the tank, it all has to go through the filter but over about 1/2 full, it flows in above the filter. It may run if filled and at that point, I would check the filter.

Are you saying that gas can pass into the pump without going through the filter?

chawk610
05-13-2011, 09:29 AM
Could the alternator have a short in it?

bturner2
05-13-2011, 09:45 AM
My bet is on fuel pump but Jim is correct. Checking the fuel pressure isn't that hard to do. I had a bout once that gave me a similar problem. It turned out I had a serious amount of water in the tank.

rhsprostar
05-13-2011, 10:37 AM
Fuel pump......check pressure at the rail, it's easy, and givin the amount of fuel pump issues, just on this board, not counting the ones we don't know about it is the likely culprit.

coz
05-13-2011, 10:56 AM
Ok, here's an update. I have bypassed the kill swith. Checked the battery for lose connections and it still will not start.
What is happening is once the engine starts it bogs down and the engine dies, or it will run for a few seconds. Do you think the automatic choke is sticking?
When I turn the key over (to the point where the engine is not being turned over) you can hear the fuel pump working.


Not sure if yours has an Idle Air Control (IAC) but your symptoms sound similar to an issue I had a while back, the boat would fire with a little throttle but when you put it back to idle it would die. Replaced the IAC, problem solved.

ahhudgins
05-13-2011, 11:21 AM
I would do as others have suggested and buy a fuel pressure gauge first. Or you can spend countless hour randomly pulling things apart and cause yourself more problems. There are a LOT of things that COULD cause this problem, but the fuel pump would be the first thing I would test. Take it in logical steps.

I bought a pressuure gauge and I've used it several time on my vehicles too. No point in guessing if you have proper pressure.

JimN
05-13-2011, 11:46 AM
Are you saying that gas can pass into the pump without going through the filter?

AFAIK, yes, but most of the contaminants collect at the bottom of the tank, so the filter is working at low fuel levels, when it's needed most.

JimN
05-13-2011, 11:48 AM
The easy way to find out if it's choking is to open the throttle a bit. If the IAC isn't opening as it should, it will fire right up and die at idle.

CantRepeat
05-13-2011, 12:19 PM
AFAIK, yes, but most of the contaminants collect at the bottom of the tank, so the filter is working at low fuel levels, when it's needed most.

From looking at most of the photos of people changing out dead pumps it look as if the filter went on the inlet of the pump. I've not pulled one apart, other then the pump in my suburban to put in a higher pressure pump, so at first glance it didn't look like any fuel could pass to the pump without first going through the filter. Therefore, it seemed that fuel level would not impact a clogged filter, which looks more to be a screen then a filter. :twocents:

Coz, I know Jim help with your IAC issues. My question is does your boat had a check engine light?

Jim, do these check engine lights in the new ECM boats give codes?

Now that I have an 06 I'm gonna need to read up on this stuff. Hopefully just to offer advise to others and not put to use on mine.

JimN
05-13-2011, 12:30 PM
From looking at most of the photos of people changing out dead pumps it look as if the filter went on the inlet of the pump. I've not pulled one apart, other then the pump in my suburban to put in a higher pressure pump, so at first glance it didn't look like any fuel could pass to the pump without first going through the filter. Therefore, it seemed that fuel level would not impact a clogged filter, which looks more to be a screen then a filter. :twocents:

Coz, I know Jim help with your IAC issues. My question is does your boat had a check engine light?

Jim, do these check engine lights in the new ECM boats give codes?

Now that I have an 06 I'm gonna need to read up on this stuff. Hopefully just to offer advise to others and not put to use on mine.

I stopped working on boas in '01, so the newest models I trained in were '02 models, although I can't see any reason to reinvent the wheel as far as how the MIL works- it only needs one output lead from the ECM and the ECM would need to be programmed to output the codes. I have read that the paper clip SHOULD NOT be used to pull codes if a scanner or diagnostic computer isn't available, though.

CantRepeat
05-13-2011, 12:33 PM
I stopped working on boas in '01, so the newest models I trained in were '02 models, although I can't see any reason to reinvent the wheel as far as how the MIL works- it only needs one output lead from the ECM and the ECM would need to be programmed to output the codes. I have read that the paper clip SHOULD NOT be used to pull codes if a scanner or diagnostic computer isn't available, though.

And correct me if I'm wrong.

The connectors are not OBD-IIs.

tr6coug
05-13-2011, 12:47 PM
Had the same symptoms (in the middle of lake Shasta) on a '03 X2/MCX last summer. Turn on the key, hear the pump run and the boat would fire for a few seconds then die. We checked for pressure at the fuel schraeder valve and gas just dribbled out, so we assumed the pump was bad. Replaced the pump and problem solved.

Unfortunately no OBD-II connector. The engine computer has a proprietary interface. I looked into getting a code reader several years ago and they were ~$800.

CantRepeat
05-13-2011, 01:19 PM
Had the same symptoms (in the middle of lake Shasta) on a '03 X2/MCX last summer. Turn on the key, hear the pump run and the boat would fire for a few seconds then die. We checked for pressure at the fuel schraeder valve and gas just dribbled out, so we assumed the pump was bad. Replaced the pump and problem solved.

Unfortunately no OBD-II connector. The engine computer has a proprietary interface. I looked into getting a code reader several years ago and they were ~$800.

Do you have info or a link to the code reader for the boat? I'd like to bookmark for future use, possible. It seems like I hear about about guys getting one service call and it costing $800.

Deron Crook
05-13-2011, 02:32 PM
Thanks for all the replys.
One question I do have is when the key is turned on and you here the full pump come for a second on two, then go off. If the pump was not reaching the correct pressure would it not continue to run, instead of cutting off?
I ordered a new fuel filter today and a buddy of mine is going to bring over his pressure guage on Monday.
I will keep you posted on the results.

JimN
05-13-2011, 04:12 PM
Thanks for all the replys.
One question I do have is when the key is turned on and you here the full pump come for a second on two, then go off. If the pump was not reaching the correct pressure would it not continue to run, instead of cutting off?
I ordered a new fuel filter today and a buddy of mine is going to bring over his pressure guage on Monday.
I will keep you posted on the results.

That's the pump priming the fuel lines and it's normal- they have done that since the first MC injected engines. They prime the fuel lines because a lot of people noticed long cranking times after the boats sat for a few weeks, due to the pressure not being maintained while it sits. If you notice, it primes for 3 seconds and if you try to do it again immediately after turning the key OFF, it does nothing. It needs to wait 5 seconds before the ECM latches the relay for the priming cycle.

If you decide to buy a fuel pressure gauge and timing light with the dial, go to Sears for both. The price isn't excessive and they work well.

tr6coug
05-13-2011, 04:15 PM
Thanks for all the replys.
One question I do have is when the key is turned on and you here the full pump come for a second on two, then go off. If the pump was not reaching the correct pressure would it not continue to run, instead of cutting off?
I ordered a new fuel filter today and a buddy of mine is going to bring over his pressure guage on Monday.
I will keep you posted on the results.


Not sure if the pump runs for a set period of time when powered up, or runs to a pressure in the fuel rail. But if the pump is starting to fail, it may be able to supply enough pressure initially but not be able to supply enough pressure while the engine is running. Which is why it will run for a few seconds then die.

Edit: I see JimN answered the timing question.

frosty
05-13-2011, 07:29 PM
Do you have info or a link to the code reader for the boat? I'd like to bookmark for future use, possible. It seems like I hear about about guys getting one service call and it costing $800.


http://www.obd2allinone.com/sc/details.asp?item=mefiscan1 $195 seems like a deal compared to $800.

This is what I bookmarked, I have not bought it yet as I want to find the flippin' connector first, and did not find it last time I looked for it...('98 LT-1)...
Anybody have the exact location of the elusive MEFI-1 connector?
And, confirm the -1 is the correct one for the LT-1?

http://www.obd2allinone.com/photos/9772.jpg

Thrall
05-13-2011, 08:04 PM
I don't think 98 is a MEFI 1, my 96 was a MEFI II if I remember.....JimN?

JimN
05-13-2011, 08:52 PM
http://www.obd2allinone.com/sc/details.asp?item=mefiscan1 $195 seems like a deal compared to $800.

This is what I bookmarked, I have not bought it yet as I want to find the flippin' connector first, and did not find it last time I looked for it...('98 LT-1)...
Anybody have the exact location of the elusive MEFI-1 connector?
And, confirm the -1 is the correct one for the LT-1?

http://www.obd2allinone.com/photos/9772.jpg

The number after MEFI basically refers to the generation and a '98 is MEFI3, IIRC. The connector is the same for all of the marine ALDL although the OBD II may use a different one. You need to find the marine version.

psychobilly
05-14-2011, 03:11 AM
That's the pump priming the fuel lines and it's normal- they have done that since the first MC injected engines. They prime the fuel lines because a lot of people noticed long cranking times after the boats sat for a few weeks, due to the pressure not being maintained while it sits. If you notice, it primes for 3 seconds and if you try to do it again immediately after turning the key OFF, it does nothing. It needs to wait 5 seconds before the ECM latches the relay for the priming cycle.

If you decide to buy a fuel pressure gauge and timing light with the dial, go to Sears for both. The price isn't excessive and they work well.

Jim, my '91 fuel pump does the same thing. (Maristar 240SC; Indmar 454 BB Carbureted )I didn't realize this until just a few months ago. I had an issue several months back where it wouldn't start and I could hear it run for only a few seconds. I didn't know about the 5 sec wait time until I was jacking with it. I finally figured that out on my own but then read about it in the service manual just the other day. I got that manual off of here and it's got some GREAT stuff in it. Heck I even printed me a copy and gunna keep it on the boat!

It also says in there not to try and crank the engine longer than 30 seconds and have a min 2 minute starter cool down period, and I think you said that too Jim a few days ago. The newer manuals say no longer than 15 seconds. Really good info in these manuals.

ftp://ftp2.indmar.us/

CantRepeat
05-14-2011, 03:30 AM
http://www.obd2allinone.com/sc/details.asp?item=mefiscan1 $195 seems like a deal compared to $800.

This is what I bookmarked, I have not bought it yet as I want to find the flippin' connector first, and did not find it last time I looked for it...('98 LT-1)...
Anybody have the exact location of the elusive MEFI-1 connector?
And, confirm the -1 is the correct one for the LT-1?

http://www.obd2allinone.com/photos/9772.jpg

Looks like the MarineEFI connectors are on this page and there are 4 types.

http://www.obd2allinone.com/sc/toplevel.asp?cat=32

tr6coug
05-14-2011, 04:36 AM
Do you have info or a link to the code reader for the boat? I'd like to bookmark for future use, possible. It seems like I hear about about guys getting one service call and it costing $800.

Diacom is the one that I remember looking at. It works with MEFI-5 which is what my 07 MCX uses. The other OBD Diagnostics cables don't work on the MEFI-5 controllers.

Diacom link:
http://www.marinepartsexpress.com/diag_tools.html

CantRepeat
05-14-2011, 04:44 AM
Diacom is the one that I remember looking at. It works with MEFI-5 which is what my 07 MCX uses. The other OBD Diagnostics cables don't work on the MEFI-5 controllers.

Diacom link:
http://www.marinepartsexpress.com/diag_tools.html

Wow, they change those like changing underwear. 5 Different readers. :rolleyes:

Deron Crook
05-19-2011, 04:08 PM
GREAT NEWS! The new fuel filter did the trick. I also purchased a new fuel pump from Auto Zone for a backup incase my goes out. Saved $300 dollars thanks to this forum
Thanks again for all the help......

Deron

scott023
05-19-2011, 04:13 PM
GREAT NEWS! The new fuel filter did the trick. I also purchased a new fuel pump from Auto Zone for a backup incase my goes out. Saved $300 dollars thanks to this forum
Thanks again for all the help......

Deron

Very nice. Glad it worked out for you.

TX.X-30 fan
05-19-2011, 07:02 PM
Very nice. Glad it worked out for you.




Great post Drucker.......

NSXBill
06-13-2011, 09:55 AM
Can anyone help with what fuel pressure gage I would need? Prefer NAPA, AutoZone, Advance Auto Parts, (closer than Sears). Boat is 2001 ProStar 209 with 310 Predetor. Wouldn't start the other day. Would crank, but I could not see the sprays coming from the injectors (I recall that I have been able to see this before when I had a bad coil). After cranking, no real gas smell at throttle body.

Do I just hook pressure gage to valve near the throttle body? Then what...1st key position good enough to test...or does it need to be cranked? What kind pressure am I looking for to know that I have a bad filter/pump?

Can a gage be left on the engine for on-the-lake diagnostics in future?

JimN
06-13-2011, 10:19 AM
Can anyone help with what fuel pressure gage I would need? Prefer NAPA, AutoZone, Advance Auto Parts, (closer than Sears). Boat is 2001 ProStar 209 with 310 Predetor. Wouldn't start the other day. Would crank, but I could not see the sprays coming from the injectors (I recall that I have been able to see this before when I had a bad coil). After cranking, no real gas smell at throttle body.

Do I just hook pressure gage to valve near the throttle body? Then what...1st key position good enough to test...or does it need to be cranked? What kind pressure am I looking for to know that I have a bad filter/pump?

Can a gage be left on the engine for on-the-lake diagnostics in future?

Advance sells the same gauge as Sears- get the one with a bleeder valve. It's about $40.

Once it's connected, turn the key to ON. If you don't see the gauge jump, turn it off and wait more than 5 seconds before trying it again. If it doesn't jump this time, press the bleeder valve with a paper towel over the end of the clear tube. Turn the key ON and if it doesn't jump, you'll need to make sure the fuel pump is actually doing something. It may be a fuse, relay or lack of RPM info to the ECM. If you hear the fuel pump relay click but not the pump priming, check the harness at the pump for voltage and that the plug is well inserted. If you see voltage but it doesn't work, pull the plug and use jumpers to supply voltage and ground to see if it's a dead pump or bad terminal.

You would need to check the pressure at Key ON, Crank, Idle, 2000 RPM and WOT. You can also use the gauge's bleeder valve to take a fuel sample (I would recommend this any time the pressure is checked). Look for about 30 pounds without significant variation (if it drops or rises, it should go back to about 30 pounds).

NSXBill
06-13-2011, 10:51 AM
[QUOTE=JimN;761400]....Once it's connected, turn the key to ON. If you don't see the gauge jump, ...[QUOTE]

What do you mean "jump"? Any movement of gage?

What if it DOES jump? Does this mean the pump is not the problem?

ttu
06-13-2011, 11:00 AM
GREAT NEWS! The new fuel filter did the trick. I also purchased a new fuel pump from Auto Zone for a backup incase my goes out. Saved $300 dollars thanks to this forum
Thanks again for all the help......

Deron

think i am having the same problem as you Had! taking my boat this afternoon to a mechanice. i hope it's just the filter and not the pump.

don't understand why they don't just use a inline filter like my supra had.

JimN
06-13-2011, 08:52 PM
[QUOTE=JimN;761400]....Once it's connected, turn the key to ON. If you don't see the gauge jump, ...[QUOTE]

What do you mean "jump"? Any movement of gage?

What if it DOES jump? Does this mean the pump is not the problem?

The needle won't go from zero to 30 pounds smoothly. It only takes part of a second from zero the first time. It should, anyway. If the pump isn't working for some reason, it won't move or it'll move slowly in the event that the impeller is bad.

NSXBill
06-19-2011, 06:06 PM
... you'll need to make sure the fuel pump is actually doing something. It may be a fuse, relay or lack of RPM info to the ECM. If you hear the fuel pump relay click but not the pump priming, check the harness at the pump for voltage and that the plug is well inserted. If you see voltage but it doesn't work, pull the plug and use jumpers to supply voltage and ground to see if it's a dead pump or bad terminal...

with key in ON position, I don't hear the pump. Checked voltage from wire harness to pump at connector going to pump...not sure how to put red and black meter wires to black, green, white connector wires, but tried all combos and nothing...pushed all breaker resets under dash, nothing. Everything else seems to work. Not sure about fuse location...no fuses in sight under dash. Could use some help please.
TIA,
Bill

JimN
06-19-2011, 07:39 PM
with key in ON position, I don't hear the pump. Checked voltage from wire harness to pump at connector going to pump...not sure how to put red and black meter wires to black, green, white connector wires, but tried all combos and nothing...pushed all breaker resets under dash, nothing. Everything else seems to work. Not sure about fuse location...no fuses in sight under dash. Could use some help please.
TIA,
Bill

The fuses are on the engine, near the ECM. The relays are nearby, too.

You could always unplug the harness from the pump and insert the probes into the plug, but don't spread the terminals.

NSXBill
06-19-2011, 08:12 PM
The fuses are on the engine, near the ECM. The relays are nearby, too.

You could always unplug the harness from the pump and insert the probes into the plug, but don't spread the terminals.

found 3 15a fuses on engine...all appear ok. Also 3 Hella 12193611 relays there. When I turn key to ON pos, I can hear a click at relays. I already uplugged harness from pump and inserted probes, that's where I was asking about wire colors...anyway, got no 12v at pump harness connector with key set to ON