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View Full Version : Serious question regarding ---> Separation of Church and State


milkmania
04-22-2011, 02:26 PM
I've often wondered what this meant "Separation of Church and State"
I always thought it had to do with religion and government

so let me ask this
1) Why is my local voting place at the Baptist Church down the road?
2) Why is the County Courthouse closed on Good Friday?




Separation of church and state
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The concept of separation of church and state refers to the distance in the relationship between organized religion and the nation state. The term is an offshoot of the phrase, "wall of separation between church and state," as written in Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists Association in 1802. The original text reads: "...I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State." Jefferson reflected his frequent speaking theme that the government is not to interfere with religion.[1] The phrase was quoted by the United States Supreme Court first in 1878, and then in a series of cases starting in 1947. Like many other governing principles, the phrase "separation of church and state" itself does not appear in the U.S. Constitution. The First Amendment to the Constitution states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

The concept of separation has since been adopted in a number of countries, to varying degrees depending on the applicable legal structures and prevalent views toward the proper role of religion in society. A similar principle of laïcité has been applied in France and Turkey, while some socially secularized countries such as Norway have maintained constitutional recognition of an official state religion. The concept parallels various other international social and political ideas, including secularism, disestablishment, religious liberty, and religious pluralism. Whitman (2009) observes that in many European countries, the state has, over the centuries, taken over the social roles of the church, leading to a generally secularized public sphere.[2]

Skipper
04-22-2011, 03:32 PM
Just be happy that your polling place is not a mosk...for a nation that was founded "under God" we are pretty Godless today. But I am sure that has no impact on the divorce rate, violent crimes, and the general degrigation of our society. Maybe when the jihadists take us back to the stone ages we will remember where we came from?

aaron.
04-22-2011, 04:33 PM
its easy to blow that off as an inconvenience skipper, but I agree with milkmania.

there are so many religions being practiced in the USA that it seems disrespectful to make anyone enter a church (of any sort) to vote. I wouldn't be very happy if i had to run down to the local synagogue or mosque to vote. In fact, i'd be pretty salty indeed.

FrankSchwab
04-22-2011, 05:08 PM
for a nation that was founded "under God"
Citation, please?

The country was founded by people with a broad range of beliefs, with deism probably the most popular. The whole "under god" thing is a 20th century invention by the Christian right to retroactively lay claim to this country.

Please feel free to bone up on your history before trying to lay claim to my country.

/frank

captain planet
04-22-2011, 05:36 PM
Just be happy that your polling place is not a mosk...for a nation that was founded "under God" we are pretty Godless today. But I am sure that has no impact on the divorce rate, violent crimes, and the general degrigation of our society. Maybe when the jihadists take us back to the stone ages we will remember where we came from?

That was added in 1954. I'm guessing to add to our feeling of security against those pesky Russians.

The original pledge is as follows:

I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

captain planet
04-22-2011, 05:44 PM
I've often wondered what this meant "Separation of Church and State"
I always thought it had to do with religion and government

so let me ask this
1) Why is my local voting place at the Baptist Church down the road?
2) Why is the County Courthouse closed on Good Friday?


Separation of church and state
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The concept of separation of church and state refers to the distance in the relationship between organized religion and the nation state. The term is an offshoot of the phrase, "wall of separation between church and state," as written in Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists Association in 1802. The original text reads: "...I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State." Jefferson reflected his frequent speaking theme that the government is not to interfere with religion.[1] The phrase was quoted by the United States Supreme Court first in 1878, and then in a series of cases starting in 1947. Like many other governing principles, the phrase "separation of church and state" itself does not appear in the U.S. Constitution. The First Amendment to the Constitution states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

The concept of separation has since been adopted in a number of countries, to varying degrees depending on the applicable legal structures and prevalent views toward the proper role of religion in society. A similar principle of laïcité has been applied in France and Turkey, while some socially secularized countries such as Norway have maintained constitutional recognition of an official state religion. The concept parallels various other international social and political ideas, including secularism, disestablishment, religious liberty, and religious pluralism. Whitman (2009) observes that in many European countries, the state has, over the centuries, taken over the social roles of the church, leading to a generally secularized public sphere.[2]

Good point. My former polling place in Massillon was a school....then they changed it to a church. I don't know why. The school makes more sense to me.

As for the courthouse.......good point. Maybe with the tight economy this should be counted as a furlough day.

73blue
04-22-2011, 06:09 PM
Much of this particular example has a practical explanation. As far as voting, in most communities the only places large enough to handle it is a church or school. So you let the kids out for the day or use the other facility. I would have no problem entering a mosque or synagogue to vote and have visited both for various reasons. As far as the courthouse being closed its simple. More than likely most of the employees identify themselves as Christian. A Jew or other religion would be allowed to miss work for their religious holidays so Christians must be given the same opportunity. If they all took the day off, there would not be enough employees to effectively run operations so it makes more sense to just close.

Skipper
04-22-2011, 06:37 PM
Citation, please?

The country was founded by people with a broad range of beliefs, with deism probably the most popular. The whole "under god" thing is a 20th century invention by the Christian right to retroactively lay claim to this country.

Please feel free to bone up on your history before trying to lay claim to my country.

/frank

Broad range of beliefs? Your country? Thanks for allowing the rest of us who don't share your beliefs live in your country.

My personal opinion - the moral condition of our nation has eroded to filth. Corrupt disconnected lobbies have waged a war on our values in an attempt to carry "separation of church and state" to the extreme. You cannot stand the idea of voting in a chapel? But if it were used as a shelter in a natural emergency how would you feel about that? You know what, don't answer. I don't care what you think.

Skipper
04-22-2011, 06:44 PM
its easy to blow that off as an inconvenience skipper, but I agree with milkmania.

there are so many religions being practiced in the USA that it seems disrespectful to make anyone enter a church (of any sort) to vote. I wouldn't be very happy if i had to run down to the local synagogue or mosque to vote. In fact, i'd be pretty salty indeed.

Is it disrespectful to build a mosque at ground zero in New York? Is it disrespectful for a band of snapper heads to go to the funerals of service members killed in action and display signs that say "God laughs when a Soldier dies"?

I am sure there are legitimate reasons to set a polling place in a church. Extremists have taken the whole separation of church and state to unintended regions. Eventually our constitution will erode so far that it, and our nation (not just that Schwab guys) will be totally unrecognizable.

Skipper
04-22-2011, 06:49 PM
Attack and belittle a person because he believes in our nation...no worries. I will stand to the end a believer. I have the freedom to choose my religion. I have the freedom to choose where to live and where to work. Our country is secure and I have the freedom to go water skiing if I want. Our country has more freedoms, and the security to protect them, than any other nation on the planet.

Yes I am angry!

FrankSchwab
04-22-2011, 07:33 PM
My country welcomes you regardless of your religious beliefs. Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, Jew, or Atheist - my country welcomes you.

My country asks only one that you respect it's civil laws. You do not get to "discipline" your spouse, beat your children, enslave others, physically attack those who don't believe as you do in the name of your religion. You do not get to kill your daughter because she dishonored your family name, or trade her to a powerful neighbor in exchange for a better job. These are limitations on your religious freedom that my country enforces.

My country believes that, in exchange for these limitations, you are allowed unparalleled personal freedom and liberty, the right to speak your mind and to practice and proselytize your religion, and, yes, to go water skiing.

Skipper, you are welcome in my country. Please do not take my previous message as an attack or belittlement; simply an objection to something that I do not believe is true. Reading your message, you and I sound as though we have far more in common than not.

/frank

Dino Don
04-22-2011, 08:38 PM
The first question about “separation of church and state” can be exampled rather simply from a historical perspective. Our forefathers came from circumstances where the church and the state was pretty much the same. Even a historical look at the Roman Catholic Church would show how the church ruled pretty much with ultimate authority over its subjects in the middle 14-1500’s. The separation of church and state basically meant that there could never be established a “Church of the United States” exampled after the model of the Church of England. When the Pope ruled that King Henry could not divorce his wife to marry someone else the King said, I’ll just form my own church and as the head of it I can do as I darn well please.
As with most things left to human design we have screwed the complete issue up to no end. The concept of separation of church and state has come to mean just about what ever your money will buy as far as interpretation goes. We have become a country where the minority rules not the majority.
Frank, I don’t doubt for one minute that most of us would not disagree with your points of explanation. The problem is that those only work well in a largely perfect society of law abiding citizens. Since we don’t have such and our society is losing ground everyday, we need to do something. I have to admit I am very partial to Judeo-Christian beliefs and values and they have worked well for me and my family. Nothing is perfect but society has strayed from any real set of values to the point our society is pretty much out of control. As a former school teacher I can tell you it is a mess in the classroom and that mess started at home from lack of structure and discipline. We cannot legislate morality and ethical behavior; those are taught at home by loving parents who love each other and their kids.
Our country has welcomed people and we all know we are a country of immigrants from all over. Teddy Roosevelt said all are welcome but we are one people, one flag and one language. Something has happened. We have some, not all, people who have come here with one purpose and that is to destroy our country and our way of life and they are using our “freedoms” to destroy us. This is not a left or right issue—it is the absolute truth and we must find an answer or we will cease to exist. History shows that all great societies have fallen from within not from without. We have got to get our heads out of our behinds and get to work.

captain planet
04-22-2011, 08:46 PM
:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:............

FrankSchwab
04-23-2011, 03:07 AM
But what do you suggest, Don?

You bring up Judeo-Christian values, without reflecting on the absolutely terrible PR that institutions claiming to champion these values have these days. How can you ask a person to follow the values you espouse when the institutions built around them are so venal?

You bring up the terrorist boogeyman for no obvious reason other than apparently as a reason to disparage immigrants, without bringing up the Big Brother that has grown tall and fell by feeding on him. Frankly, I'm far more afraid of my government and what it's on the path to become over the next generation than I am of a terrorist; I believe that an open, free society is strong and robust and in no danger from those cowards, but is in danger from those who would strangle freedom in a vain attempt to create security.

You and I agree that there is a danger to our great society; perhaps we differ on the details, but conversation and conflict on those details is absolutely necessary to effect any changes to public perception and to the greater danger that faces us.

And, I appreciate CP and 73Blue's and Dino Don's knowlegeable inputs on Milk's original question; I think use of Church facilities is purely a convenience (large meeting rooms scattered generously through the community). Short of putting up tents in a parking lot, they would be difficult to replace.

/frank

aaron.
04-23-2011, 09:44 AM
jeeeze skipper.

CantRepeat
04-23-2011, 09:45 AM
:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:............

/beers please!

Hoosier Bob
04-23-2011, 11:22 AM
You guys vote at a church? That is totally *'d up! I agree with Milk. We vote at PT's show club on Pendleton Pike!:D Free wings!

Would that be an atheist establishment?

bbymgr
04-23-2011, 12:19 PM
You guys vote at a church? That is totally *'d up! I agree with Milk. We vote at PT's show club on Pendleton Pike!:D Free wings!

Would that be an atheist establishment?

Definitely not atheist. I've prayed there many times.........................prayed that my wife didn't find out.:D

Hoosier Bob
04-23-2011, 01:21 PM
Good to know! Can't be a church though as I do not believe "donations" are tax deductable. They should be! Definately enough body and blood going around!;)Definitely not atheist. I've prayed there many times.........................prayed that my wife didn't find out.:D

2RLAKE
04-23-2011, 02:34 PM
I agree with Skipper ... there should be no mosque near ground zero ... that is complete disrespect ... on its only there because enough people with a backbone don's really against it ... i am not anti-Muslim, just completely anti-mosque near ground zero. Muslims are fine ... i'll gladly pay for a ticket or two, heck even an entire family, to ship them back

ProTour X9
04-23-2011, 03:16 PM
I think it would be much more enjoyable to live in George Orwell's "1984", now there is a perfect society. ;)

JimN
04-23-2011, 04:15 PM
Just be happy that your polling place is not a mosk...for a nation that was founded "under God" we are pretty Godless today. But I am sure that has no impact on the divorce rate, violent crimes, and the general degrigation of our society. Maybe when the jihadists take us back to the stone ages we will remember where we came from?

Once people lost interest in going to church and religion in general, there was no fear of consequences for doing bad things and in the '60s, the "If it feels good, do it" crowd was popular because they were such free freakin' spirits that everyone wanted to be like them. This is the result.

Remember, the some of the radicals who caused most of the worst problems at colleges across the country are now in Congress.

The whole "Our religion is the only correct one" is BS. All three- Christianity, Judaism and Islam are based on Abrahamic writings and worship the same God, in different name. All three are so closely intertwined that it's really nothing more than the Hatfields vs the McCoys, if you really boil it down. All come from desert dwellers, fighting over the same turd pile. The original Christians, Jews and Muslims (the new kids by at least 550 years) speak the same languages, were related and came from the same places. Why else would Jerusalem be so revered by all three religions? Also, Kosher and Halal are almost identical.

JimN
04-23-2011, 04:19 PM
its easy to blow that off as an inconvenience skipper, but I agree with milkmania.

there are so many religions being practiced in the USA that it seems disrespectful to make anyone enter a church (of any sort) to vote. I wouldn't be very happy if i had to run down to the local synagogue or mosque to vote. In fact, i'd be pretty salty indeed.

Why? Do other religions offend you, just by existing? Judaism came first, then Christianity and then Islam. Remember, Christ was a Jew at birth and he died a Jew. The irony is that the Romans killed him, but the Jews let it happen.

CantRepeat
04-24-2011, 04:59 AM
Once people lost interest in going to church and religion in general, there was no fear of consequences for doing bad things and in the '60s, the "If it feels good, do it" crowd was popular because they were such free freakin' spirits that everyone wanted to be like them. This is the result.


I don't think the fear of consequences is tied to religion. It might be for some people, but not for me. I don't lie, cheat or steal just because they are wrong morally and my morals are NOT based in religion.

JimN
04-24-2011, 05:08 AM
I don't think the fear of consequences is tied to religion. It might be for some people, but not for me. I don't lie, cheat or steal just because they are wrong morally and my morals are based in religion.

You just contradicted yourself.

CantRepeat
04-24-2011, 05:19 AM
You just contradicted yourself.

I just left out the word NOT. Thinking faster then I type. :D