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Baird
04-14-2011, 08:18 PM
I have a massive sound system in my x star and seem to drain the batteries to quickly. I have brand new batteries in the boat now and still having the same problem.a local boat shop said it's a small black box next to the switch that's not allowing the batteries to recharge of the motor.

east tx skier
04-14-2011, 09:31 PM
If you have multiple batteries, I don't hink it's the boat that's not allowing you to charge. Lots of threads on here about how to set up multiple batteries to let you run the boat and crank the tunes.

JimN
04-14-2011, 09:47 PM
I have a massive sound system in my x star and seem to drain the batteries to quickly. I have brand new batteries in the boat now and still having the same problem.a local boat shop said it's a small black box next to the switch that's not allowing the batteries to recharge of the motor.

If you didn't upgrade the alternator when the sound system went in, you're shooting yourself in the foot and the amplifiers/speakers won't last long with low voltage. If you're sitting for long periods of time without running the engine, you'll need more batteries. If the isolator isn't allowing the batteries to charge, get a new one or make sure it's not wired incorrectly.

JRW160
04-14-2011, 10:18 PM
Install an onboard charger if you have access to A/C power where you store your boat.

krutzmart
04-19-2011, 05:43 PM
1st off,
I'm a weekend warrior when it comes to stereo building and mechanics for that matter too. I can do just about anything with a manuel and time into my homework for the project. But do not claim to be ASE certified or anything like that.


I have a massave stereo on my mastercraft boat. 12 speakers and 4-12" subs, I have a 2400 watt amp on my speakers and a 1200 watt amp on my subs. I do have a 10 fared capacitor on it too. It sucks alot of power for 2 batteries. I thought about adding 2 more batteries ?

This system is very loud. And when running above 1200 RPM's it doesn't have any issues, but it suck power and then everything else like

the power ballest and other accesories use up. Take into cosideration the ballast pumps ( 7 pumps can run at once in my situation when filling ) so that can draw some current and dash lights, bilge pumps, cell phone charges, ipod chargers, ect. You are sucking more power then you may know. I get that. But,

I installed a 140amp alternator from DBL electricle and have been very pleased, with the output when your running above 1200 RPM, but when you go below 1200 ( like at idle ) the power sensor will go of shortly if you have the stereo turned up. It is a loud beeping warning sound telling when I'm below proper voltage.

I have set up 2 sound systems this way. 1 on a moomba ( 1wire alternator ) 12 speakers and 12 subs and 1 on a mastercraft ( 3 wire ). Same engine and alternators exept the wiring. The moomba did the same thing and it was a smaller stereo system, but it failed to power stereo at idle.

I have yet to find the perfect combo on this 5.7 engines. On the Nautiques with the PCM 6.0L I set up the same smaller system as in the moomba but it's doesn't skip a beat. Not at idle. It has a larger high output alternator I think 160 amp too but it charges 14+ volts all day at idle where the 5.7 mcx can't charge at 14+ at idle. Only over 1200 rmp can it charge 14+ all day long. Other wise it will drop to about 11-13 volts and sensors sound or stereo will cut out or both.

Don't know if this helps anyone out or I'm just RAMBELING on your thread, or if anyones has found the right set up for a huge stereo on a 5.7 please chime in as it has kept me up many nights in the past years. I know the alternator is the most important part of the powering of amps, but why can't we get a high output alternator to power up 140 or more amps at idle on a 5.7? Or can we ?

JimN
04-19-2011, 08:36 PM
1st off,
I'm a weekend warrior when it comes to stereo building and mechanics for that matter too. I can do just about anything with a manuel and time into my homework for the project. But do not claim to be ASE certified or anything like that.


I have a massave stereo on my mastercraft boat. 12 speakers and 4-12" subs, I have a 2400 watt amp on my speakers and a 1200 watt amp on my subs. I do have a 10 fared capacitor on it too. It sucks alot of power for 2 batteries. I thought about adding 2 more batteries ?

This system is very loud. And when running above 1200 RPM's it doesn't have any issues, but it suck power and then everything else like

the power ballest and other accesories use up. Take into cosideration the ballast pumps ( 7 pumps can run at once in my situation when filling ) so that can draw some current and dash lights, bilge pumps, cell phone charges, ipod chargers, ect. You are sucking more power then you may know. I get that. But,

I installed a 140amp alternator from DBL electricle and have been very pleased, with the output when your running above 1200 RPM, but when you go below 1200 ( like at idle ) the power sensor will go of shortly if you have the stereo turned up. It is a loud beeping warning sound telling when I'm below proper voltage.

I have set up 2 sound systems this way. 1 on a moomba ( 1wire alternator ) 12 speakers and 12 subs and 1 on a mastercraft ( 3 wire ). Same engine and alternators exept the wiring. The moomba did the same thing and it was a smaller stereo system, but it failed to power stereo at idle.

I have yet to find the perfect combo on this 5.7 engines. On the Nautiques with the PCM 6.0L I set up the same smaller system as in the moomba but it's doesn't skip a beat. Not at idle. It has a larger high output alternator I think 160 amp too but it charges 14+ volts all day at idle where the 5.7 mcx can't charge at 14+ at idle. Only over 1200 rmp can it charge 14+ all day long. Other wise it will drop to about 11-13 volts and sensors sound or stereo will cut out or both.

Don't know if this helps anyone out or I'm just RAMBELING on your thread, or if anyones has found the right set up for a huge stereo on a 5.7 please chime in as it has kept me up many nights in the past years. I know the alternator is the most important part of the powering of amps, but why can't we get a high output alternator to power up 140 or more amps at idle on a 5.7? Or can we ?

You clearly need a higher output alternator, or an additional one just for the audio system. Do the math- what is 2400/14.4?

EarmarkMarine
04-19-2011, 09:49 PM
JimN,
It might be more like 2400 watts times two for 50 percent amplifier efficiency (depending on the amplifier topology and the specific load impedance) divided by the real averaged voltage times the transient nature of music (much different from a DC bulb). 2400atts could peak over 100 amps before the 15 to 20 amp boat operations (without lighting) and the considerable load from multiple depleted stereo batteries. Some systems under certain conditions can pull twice the alternator's peak output at a good rpm.
Baird,
If the stereo shop is referring to an ACR/VSR (black box) they could be right. When the stereo and depleted batteries are collectively sagging the voltage then the voltage sensing relay bounces back open and may stay open. That's good in a way to protect your alternator and starting battery but it can be counterproductive for keeping up the stereo batteries because the stereo batteries may not actually see the alternator most of the time. It is absolutely possible for the stereo demands to exceed the functional limitations of an ACR/VSR system. We understand this category very well so reach out if I can help you and your stereo dealer. Also, you've got to have AC access and a really large multi-bank multi-stage charger if you are running big stereos and big battery reserves. No way around this.

David
Earmark Marine

JimN
04-19-2011, 10:49 PM
JimN,
It might be more like 2400 watts times two for 50 percent amplifier efficiency (depending on the amplifier topology and the specific load impedance) divided by the real averaged voltage times the transient nature of music (much different from a DC bulb). 2400atts could peak over 100 amps before the 15 to 20 amp boat operations (without lighting) and the considerable load from multiple depleted stereo batteries. Some systems under certain conditions can pull twice the alternator's peak output at a good rpm.
Baird,
If the stereo shop is referring to an ACR/VSR (black box) they could be right. When the stereo and depleted batteries are collectively sagging the voltage then the voltage sensing relay bounces back open and may stay open. That's good in a way to protect your alternator and starting battery but it can be counterproductive for keeping up the stereo batteries because the stereo batteries may not actually see the alternator most of the time. It is absolutely possible for the stereo demands to exceed the functional limitations of an ACR/VSR system. We understand this category very well so reach out if I can help you and your stereo dealer. Also, you've got to have AC access and a really large multi-bank multi-stage charger if you are running big stereos and big battery reserves. No way around this.

David
Earmark Marine

I did car audio & security for close to 20 years (did somewhere near 7000 cars) and have never seen a huge system connected to an undersized charging system work properly for any length of time. If the alternator and charging lead(s) aren't sufficient, the alternator burns up prematurely, amps and speakers die and it sounds like crap because of the voltage drop. I used Lestech alternators when they were the main supplier of 200+ Amp versions and Stinger or got them locally once I found out who was able to make them reliably.

When I posted 2400/14.4, I was only making a point and you reinforced it by posting that it's more like 2400W x 2. Also, with all accessories on, the load is closer to 40-50A, depending on how many accessories were installed and how power hungry they are (bilge & fat sack pumps, blower and as mentioned, lighting). The ECM alone can draw close to 10A on a regular basis (mainly the old MEFI 1 or MEFI 2 versions).

EarmarkMarine
04-19-2011, 11:36 PM
I'd have to agree with all that. So with 40 to 50 amps of boat operations, 100 amps of stereo system draw when hammered and before rap music plus a couple of fully depleted Group 31 AGMs we could initially be pulling down 200 amps. A stock alternator would be running as hot as an exhaust manifold if on-line with the entire load and there is no chance under those conditions that an ACR/VSR is going to combine. There are alot of dominoes falling in alot of different places in these radical systems.

David
Earmark Marine

krutzmart
04-22-2011, 05:44 PM
I understand I'm drawing alot of currant with the amps, thing is they are all wired in series and the amps seen to be hardly be working to run this system even turned up. I know my batteries say different but I've never felt amps get even close to hot on a 100 degree day running the the stereo loud

I have been told every thing under the sun when it comes to this. I thought I had the right set up with the upgraded 140 amp alternator from the stock 90 amp or whatever came on it.

How big of a alternator will fit on the 5.7 ?

Can I get a 200+ amp alternator to bolt up to the 5.7 with out any major mods. ?

EarmarkMarine
04-22-2011, 07:32 PM
Why would you spend more money until you narrowed down the actual cause. It could be the ACR/VSR.

David
Earmark Marine

JimN
04-22-2011, 09:53 PM
I understand I'm drawing alot of currant with the amps, thing is they are all wired in series and the amps seen to be hardly be working to run this system even turned up. I know my batteries say different but I've never felt amps get even close to hot on a 100 degree day running the the stereo loud

I have been told every thing under the sun when it comes to this. I thought I had the right set up with the upgraded 140 amp alternator from the stock 90 amp or whatever came on it.

How big of a alternator will fit on the 5.7 ?

Can I get a 200+ amp alternator to bolt up to the 5.7 with out any major mods. ?

Not series, parallel, which they would be in any configuration. However, it's impossible to know how much they're drawing unless a current test is done. A clamp-on ammeter is about the only way to do this.

krutzmart
04-23-2011, 04:46 PM
"There are scenerios where a combiner/separator will not combine and bring the stereo battery back on line with the alternator. A common situation is when you have a large stereo battery or stereo bank that has been fully depleted at rest. If the combined draw of the battery and stereo pulls down the starting battery combined with the alternator output below the combine voltage threshold then the combiner will stay open or quickly bounce back to open. The stereo battery/bank never receives a charge. If its a relatively short trip back to the trailor, through the no wake zone and waiting in line at idle, you will never get a charge or perhaps only a partial restoration. If you have an older or smallish alternator (maybe 70 amps) combined with a large stereo then this compounds the issue. What is healthy in protecting the alternator from an excessive load and heat generation can be inversely counter-productive for the health of batteries. An ACR/VSR/combiner-separator (whatever label is used) can result in deeper battery cycles which are far more harmful than quantity of cycles and can result in batteries being put up into long term storage in a discharged state which causes rapid degeneration. Yes, these devices can be automatic and convenient for the most part but you should supplement them with two items. 1)a switch that lets you manual combine the banks and 2) an AC shore dual-bank multi-stage smart marine charger. Many of these ACR/VSR/comb-sep's have a switch as part of a bundled package but these packages often introduce another conflict in that they provide various switching but will not allow the separate battery banks to isolate for AC shore charging which results in over and under charging since the two banks are not used equally, do not age equally and do not share an equal level of charge nor the same characteristics that smart chargers read and respond to. Also, you do not want to apply the same scheme to all stereo systems of different sizes and all stereo battery banks of different capacity. There are different approaches to correctly fit each system. You are better off choosing this category last after you have a vision of what your final stereo and total battery capacty will be. Then get a custom solution to your particular boat. A custom solution is not necessarily more expensive but its more comprehensive. You may go from a season or two on your batteries to five seasons before replacement and your play time each following weekend will be much longer...not to mention better reliability from your electronics.

David
Earmark Marine
__________________
David Stein
www.earmarkmarine.com """"""

So I found this from you a year ago you wrote on a TIGE forum. I am trying to understand the acr/vsr . Does this mean that I'm never charging both batteries at the same level ? I understand when your not running hard, sure you will run down power,but when running hard the alternator will not only maintain but charge up batteries right ?
And if it charges wouldn't more batteries + higher charging output = longer battery life and run time ?

JimN
04-23-2011, 05:04 PM
Bottom line- don't discharge batteries completely and if they have been, don't use an alternator to recharge them- use a real charger that can monitor and adjust the current. Deep cycle batteries aren't supposed to be completely discharged, either. 'Deep cycle' means discharging to a specific voltage, not stone dead. Don't sit with the stereo cranked to the level of an outdoor concert for a long time and expect the alternator to recharge them like nothing happened. An alternator is only supposed to supply enough to power the accessories + recharge the battery after it has cranked the engine when starting, it's not made to run power-hungry amplifiers for a long time if it's going to survive for long. The heat generated when recharging deeply discharged batteries and driving heavy loads kills the bridge rectifier, bearings, the field windings, brushes and contacts/terminals. One solution to eliminate the possibility of being stranded is to add an alternator, specifically for the audio equipment, with no connections to the rest of the electrical system.

krutzmart
04-29-2011, 01:58 PM
Thanks for the help. I don't sit blasten stereo, I'm just concrened I'm going to chew up another 140 amp alternator in the near future cuz it's having to work way to hard and just can't keep up with my demand of it ?

Thrall
04-29-2011, 08:22 PM
Efficiency of the amps will play a large part in how much current you draw.
By way of comparison, I'm running 8 JL component speakers and 1 - 12"DVC sub and while I don't have any problems with the system, I calulated the theoretical max current draw from my 3 amps and I really don't have enough capacity with 2 batteries, so I monitor it closely.
With 3600W of power you're running I'd say 2 batteries is definately not enough.
Get a good battery bank setup and adequate shore power charging hooked up to the batteries.
As said above, your alternator will not put a dent in charging the power you're pulling off the batteries.
Try this site and do a bunch of reading.
It will help you calc what you need for reserve capacity and explain ALOT about stereo systems in general. There may be other things you can do to make your system more efficient.
www.bcae1.com

TX.X-30 fan
04-29-2011, 08:44 PM
You clearly need a higher output alternator, or an additional one just for the audio system. Do the math- what is 2400/14.4?



I had 2400 watt system with 5 amps 300/2 and subs 1000/1 and 3 batteries with no issues. Sorry 150 amp alt. the issue might be the batteries, my 2 stereo batts were 2400 amphr and 1800 amp hr Kinetik's.


You cannot max out the stereo at idle.

craig3972
04-29-2011, 09:01 PM
I bought a 200A alt for my mcx. I used to run my motor at about 1200rpm with the stereo at max, it worked fine. somebody fell on the boat throttle during a party and pushed it all the way down to WOT position. it was nightime and with the stereo at full volume I couldnt hear anything. Then I saw the RPM gauge bouncing off the rev limiter. I raced up and pulled the throttle back. I had to watch it for the rest of the night. with the 200A it will generate 120amps@idle. this should be sufficient to run the stereo without trouble. I also have 3 kinetics HC2000 batteries. 102amp/hrs each - this is double the amount of the optima blues. the 200amp alt I got looks like it bolts right in, so I hope I dont fires in my engine compartment.

jconover
04-29-2011, 10:32 PM
I know i've seen many references about this around here, but usually in the wrong context - when looking at something beyond stock alternators, are there some preferred brands or websites for getting this stuff? I followed some links in other threads which took me to $600 alternators - seems like overkill. I anticipate I will need to do an upgrade to my 51A alternator after I add 900W of stereo to the bote. I need a v-belt (not serpentine) for an Indmar 454, if it helps

BNIROOSTER
04-30-2011, 11:47 AM
you can get an alt that is 200+ but you will pay for it! try looking at a balmer. I also have an large system and solved a ~200 amp load from it by using the balmar alt and a couple of trojan t-105 golf cart batteries. You can read my previous posts or pm me and I will tell you in detail.

I understand I'm drawing alot of currant with the amps, thing is they are all wired in series and the amps seen to be hardly be working to run this system even turned up. I know my batteries say different but I've never felt amps get even close to hot on a 100 degree day running the the stereo loud

I have been told every thing under the sun when it comes to this. I thought I had the right set up with the upgraded 140 amp alternator from the stock 90 amp or whatever came on it.

How big of a alternator will fit on the 5.7 ?

Can I get a 200+ amp alternator to bolt up to the 5.7 with out any major mods. ?

JimN
04-30-2011, 04:40 PM
I know i've seen many references about this around here, but usually in the wrong context - when looking at something beyond stock alternators, are there some preferred brands or websites for getting this stuff? I followed some links in other threads which took me to $600 alternators - seems like overkill. I anticipate I will need to do an upgrade to my 51A alternator after I add 900W of stereo to the bote. I need a v-belt (not serpentine) for an Indmar 454, if it helps

51A at 12VDC comes out to 612VA which are, in a DC circuit, basically the same. A 900W stereo system isn't 100% efficient, so some nominal rating must be used and usually, amplifiers that get hot are assumed to be about 50% efficient. That means the load from a 900W system has to be calculated as 1800W and 1800/12=150A. That power rating must be based on real life demand, though. If the system is NEVER turned up to max, the 1800W doesn't apply but for design purposes, it's best to err on the side of caution.

If the alternator is upgraded, the charging lead must be larger, too.

JRW160
04-30-2011, 10:57 PM
I had 2400 watt system with 5 amps 300/2 and subs 1000/1 and 3 batteries with no issues. Sorry 150 amp alt. the issue might be the batteries, my 2 stereo batts were 2400 amphr and 1800 amp hr Kinetik's.
You cannot max out the stereo at idle.
I'm pretty sure 2400ah batteries do not exist. From what I've seen, the biggest battery kinetik sells is 134ah.

TallRedRider
05-01-2011, 12:11 AM
I'm pretty sure 2400ah batteries do not exist. From what I've seen, the biggest battery kinetik sells is 134ah.

Kinetik does an unusual thing and sort of pairs the battery with the number of watts it can supply to the stereo system....so they say that the hc1800 has enough power to run an 1800 Watt system. I think that is not exactly proper electrical talk...but it appeals to the masses of us without EE degrees.

BTW, lots of good advice above for the OP. I appreciate it.

TX.X-30 fan
05-01-2011, 01:36 PM
I'm pretty sure 2400ah batteries do not exist. From what I've seen, the biggest battery kinetik sells is 134ah.



Sorry I saw that those were model #'s. The other dude with kinetiks was right, I had the hc2400 and 1800. They are awesome batteries and drain down with no loss until dead. Need to install a true isolator though.

krutzmart
06-08-2011, 03:26 PM
Craig 3972 has a 200 amp installed on MCX with minor mods. 120amp at idle......
CAN BE DONE

krutzmart
06-08-2011, 03:47 PM
BNIROOSTER
As this may be the dumbest ? on here. How do I PM you on this info ? I'm new to this. What is PM ? email you ? Sorry, I'm learning
I am very intersted in your info as I can't stand reving up my engine to 1200rpm to keep by voltage warning buzzer from going off.