View Full Version : drive by wire
rodltg2
07-18-2005, 07:41 PM
what is the reason for this system ?, what benefits does it have? it seems like people have alot of issues with it.
One major benefit is that there'e no corrosion of a metal cable to deal with, no sticking throttle, no mechanical linkage at the helm to go out of adjustment and smoother transition from one speed to another. GM went to TBW in the Corvette about 1994 and they aren't about to change it anytime soon. I suspect the feel(or lack of) is one issue. If they're actually failing, that's another story. That would indicate a bad batch of parts or the part maker changed something without telling Indmar/MC(Rochester did that in late 1999 with their throttle plates and this necessitated a recalibration due to hot start issues).
jjsosnowski
07-18-2005, 08:34 PM
The main reason for the throttle by wire is because of the electronics for controling emmissions.I have been dealing with them for years in the heavy equipment industry.My personal opinion is that they suck. The potentiometer or hockey puck wears internally and when it fails your screwed.As for corrosion,Wires corrode more than cables.And with the corrosion on the tbw your dealing in resistance and milli amps, it throws off your computer. I have fooled some with an in line resister from radio shack.The tbw is also for the easy of cruise control through the ecm. They just don't build things like they used to.Im glad mine dont have it.
rodltg2
07-18-2005, 09:37 PM
it seems like alot of people have a hrad time calibrating their perfect pass with it. im glad i dont have it either!
I have to disagree with the "wires corrode more than cables" part. I don't remember needing to repair very many corroded wires and terminals, unless they had actually been directly exposed to water from heavy, repeated condensation or swamping. Throttle and shift cables- I replaced a ton of them. Admittedly, most of the problem was moisture along with wear-through of any protective coating, but it wasn't sensors and wires that I needed to replace. I don't remember seeing an internally corroded TPS and I hope they could make a TBW as well sealed as that.
Part of the explaination I got initially had to do with cars and the insurance industry. Theoretically, if the ECM can control the throttle and brakes, once they came up with a reliable steer-by-wire, they could have a crashless vehicle since they have had proximity sensors for quite a while, too. These, along with a G-force analyser(which I have heard is already in hidden "black boxes" in new cars and trucks, would make it possible to get feedback from the black box to avoid a crash, store info about driving habits and what happens before/during/after a crash.
rodltg2
07-19-2005, 12:25 AM
just more crap to break that the averge joe cant fix. i rather replace a bad cable after some years than need a computer programmer to fix my problems.
Leroy
07-19-2005, 12:37 AM
Rod, you're sounding bitter these days, cheer up!
Quickly this has to show the quality and reliabilty of EFI or EI. We just need a USB port on modern boats for diagnostics.
Workin' 4 Toys
07-19-2005, 08:48 AM
Neither of my trucks have throttle cables, both tbw. I have seen one GM truck at the shop with a bad throttle switch aka potentiometer, and all the truck could do was idle.
I was told the default code is if the computer senses an issue, it automatically goes to idle. I can only hope it wouldn't short out and go to WOT, but who knows, its an electronic device, and anything could happen. Soon enough, nothing will have a cable. It is where technology is going.
It has good and bad, as with everything.
I've had a cable stick on a car I had and of course it decided to stick in WOT. That is one of the scariest events in my life and I will never forget it. This was on a '69 GTO.
6ballsisall
07-19-2005, 08:51 AM
workin, you ever seen or heard a run away diesel? I watched a Duramax blow a turbo and the oil slid right thru her and it ran away. Needless to say everyone ran out of the dyno shop REAL fast.
Workin' 4 Toys
07-19-2005, 08:56 AM
workin, you ever seen or heard a run away diesel? I watched a Duramax blow a turbo and the oil slid right thru her and it ran away. Needless to say everyone ran out of the dyno shop REAL fast.
Nope, I have seen superchargers blow and it isn't pretty. I do intend to find one of these Diesel only Drag race events going around the country, I would bet there will be some exciting stuff like that. I have 3 drag strips within 2 hours of me, and I will attend one in the very near future, and will ask around for this kind of incident.
skisix@38
07-19-2005, 09:01 AM
I get to drive a 05 TT197 regularly and I can't tell any difference in the "feel" of that system than I can of the CC or Malibu. Sure, if I get in a boat that has some stiff cables there a difference but that's a maintanance issue. It just seems to me like there is more to putting DBW in than anyone expected. The TT boat is on it's second ECM and third PP chip now and has been pulled out in the middle of a tournament round in several different tournaments. I like this boat and it pains me to see MC going though this again.
The other thing I've noticed is that if there is any wind at all the MC is drastically impacted by it. Where I would need to add or subtract 25-35 rpms in a CC or Bu with a bimini, I need to add twice that much for the MC. I don't know if this has anything to do with the DBW system but it seem to coincide.
east tx skier
07-19-2005, 12:37 PM
Like many have said, it seems the primary issues from the DBW system have to do with mating it to perfect pass. Jim, or anybody in the know, how long did MC test this before offering it standard?
Like many have said, it seems the primary issues from the DBW system have to do with mating it to perfect pass. Jim, or anybody in the know, how long did MC test this before offering it standard?
Good question, did you mean to ask how long mc tested dbw or how long they tested PP's dbw setup, or both.
I never used the MC cruise on mine, but I haven't read anyone having trouble with that feature from MC???
I know the answer and will remain silent...needless to say this has not worked out as planned. As many of you on here know I have been active in testing some of the updates to the system and it is getting better. If you think the slalom boats are fussy you should try working with the wakeboard stuff :eek3: it is way more difficult to work out with all the combinations of engine, ballast and hull design.
east tx skier
07-19-2005, 02:27 PM
Ric, I guess I meant both, but more specifically, I was wondering if MC had thoroughly tested the DBW system extensively in all conceivable scenarios before making it standard equipment.
MyMC, I think I understand. But watch this ... I could be wrong.
Let me ask you this then, do you know of anyone who has retrofitted a traditional cable throttle setup on a dbw boat? How much trouble would this be?
It has not been done that I know of...it would be pretty complex and costly. ECM, throttle, throttle body, wiring, Perfect Pass and so on. It will be better to have made the switch long term (GPS, Cruise Control and so on) but it does need all the bugs worked out before anyone is going to believe it.
Prostar19
07-19-2005, 03:07 PM
lets face it drive by wire is going to be here to stay. The major automobile manufactures are all using throttle by wire thus it is filtering down to the marine industry. Indmar uses all GM engines and they are all coming in with TBW. As you will see MC competitors will be using it for 2006. MasterCraft has lead the industry again by using this first and the comp will all have the benefit of MC's issues and fixes to the system.
east tx skier
07-19-2005, 03:13 PM
I'm sure there are undoubtedly advantages to it and I'm sure MC and its dealers are doing everything they can to make this work. I'm sure it's very frustrating for them. But that said, I also know that if I were the owner of an 05 Prostar, I'd be plenty ticked if my brand new boat weren't working like a top, innovative or not. Here's hoping they get it worked out soon.
rodltg2
07-19-2005, 03:23 PM
lets face it drive by wire is going to be here to stay. The major automobile manufactures are all using throttle by wire thus it is filtering down to the marine industry. Indmar uses all GM engines and they are all coming in with TBW. As you will see MC competitors will be using it for 2006. MasterCraft has lead the industry again by using this first and the comp will all have the benefit of MC's issues and fixes to the system.
well i dont want to a guinea pig , so i will be staying away from it.
east tx skier
07-19-2005, 03:42 PM
Rod, how's the 93 S&S skiing?
i dont want to a guinea pig , so i will be staying away from it.
I can understand your position, and I am not sure if I were in your shoes how I would decide. This certainly was not intentional and it just needs to be worked on until we all agree it is right.
skisix@38
07-19-2005, 03:54 PM
lets face it drive by wire is going to be here to stay. The major automobile manufactures are all using throttle by wire thus it is filtering down to the marine industry. Indmar uses all GM engines and they are all coming in with TBW. As you will see MC competitors will be using it for 2006. MasterCraft has lead the industry again by using this first and the comp will all have the benefit of MC's issues and fixes to the system.
I agree that DBW is going to happen- economies of scale and parts. I've heard the Mlibu is going to it in 06, I've heard nothing from CC. MC has lead the way and I got give the nod for doing it first but, they have lead the way to the shop by needing to replace parts and multiple times to get it right. East Tx is right, I wouldn't be a happy camper for it. Maybe that's why the others opted not to introduce in 05? Malibu may benefit from the issues or, they may have come up with the issues and chose not to compromise to meet shipments.
We talked briefly about TBW in '98 and got into it more in '99. IIRC, the one MC uses is from Indmar- EngineNut- maybe you can shed some light on this, too.
The ECM is programmed to idle if there is ANY issue with the TBW and there's at least one redundant trace in the potentiometer.
east tx skier
07-19-2005, 09:52 PM
... and there's at least one redundant trace in the potentiometer.
Well, that clears it up. :uglyhamme
/just havin' a little fun.
You know in the dictionary under redundant it says see redundant.
Workin' 4 Toys
07-20-2005, 09:31 AM
Pretty soon the transmissions will be controlled by wire. And then, you guessed it steering!!! Can't wait to see someone get that system wet!!! I can just picture it now, " FULL SIZE REMOTE CONTROL BOAT for sale!!!"
east tx skier
07-20-2005, 10:37 AM
You know in the dictionary under redundant it says see redundant.
ba-dump-bump, chish. :uglyhamme
I think the dictionary entry was submitted by the department of redundancy department.
USC8791
07-20-2005, 09:06 PM
What was that again?
Are all 05 MC’s DBW? A friend has a 05 197 with RTP-1, but I am in NYC so I cannot look under his engine cover. He is shopping for Perfect Pass. I have recommended he wait until winter or spring, giving MC and PP time work out bugs of DBW and new display… Thanks in advance, Jamie
Farmer Ted
08-15-2005, 09:59 PM
Pretty soon the transmissions will be controlled by wire. And then, you guessed it steering!!! Can't wait to see someone get that system wet!!! I can just picture it now, " FULL SIZE REMOTE CONTROL BOAT for sale!!!"
It would be no different that some of the airplanes that are in service today, F-16 and many Airbus planes are Fly by wire. Would be pretty simple for a ski boat the rudder wouldn't need that big of an actuator to deflect.
erkoehler
08-16-2005, 01:00 AM
I believe the 05's were TBW
Are all 05 MC’s DBW? A friend has a 05 197 with RTP-1, but I am in NYC so I cannot look under his engine cover. He is shopping for Perfect Pass. I have recommended he wait until winter or spring, giving MC and PP time work out bugs of DBW and new display… Thanks in advance, Jamie
all 05's are DBW and that is the Perfect Pass that he'll need to order.
Much easier to install but the ECM will need to be flashed for Perfect Pass after installation.
djhuff
08-16-2005, 10:12 AM
IIRC, only the MCX and up were TBW, the RTP-1 was still cable actuated.
IIRC, only the MCX and up were TBW, the RTP-1 was still cable actuated.
this is news to me, I was told ALL 05 MC's were DBW?????
I don't remember if it was a salesman or MC rep or Perfect Pass rep who told me that now that I think of it.
What is IIRC?
IIRC means If I Remember Correctly, if I remember correctly.
for another acronym
MYMC????????????????? can we get a ruling here?
The system is DBW or Drive By Wire.
In 2005 all the RTP-1 equipped boats we sold were still cable actuated. All the 2006 boats we have that are RTP-1 equipped are DBW boats...I know I know makes no sense on a "price point boat" but that is the way it is.
The system is DBW or Drive By Wire.
In 2005 all the RTP-1 equipped boats we sold were still cable actuated. All the 2006 boats we have that are RTP-1 equipped are DBW boats...I know I know makes no sense on a "price point boat" but that is the way it is.
well won't the dbw system be cheaper to manufacture(and maintain/warrant) in the long run?
BTW.... as usual, I knew you'd know the answer and share!
The sub works well
I just need to figure how to adjust it from the confounded xmd3 contraption!
rlivingood
08-16-2005, 06:59 PM
I've driven the same model boat over a weekend by different years 04 vs. 05 wire. I like the cable better than the wire for the feel. Now I know that is subjective and maybe there is an adjustment, but more than a couple of times I upreved the drive by wire more than I planned. My 04 209 wire feels the same way as my past 88 190 felt, but the 05 209 felt much different. Maybe if you never drove by cable it wouldn't feel any stranger. Maybe there is a way to tension it down so that it has better resistance as to not "over hit it". IMHO
In order:
well won't the dbw system be cheaper to manufacture(and maintain/warrant) in the long run?
Sure you would think so but when has that stopped MC before? New towers every year, new board racks, new decals, new dash face, new...well you get the idea. There is something to be said for the cost of warehousing all these parts from all these years. Also if they did it to control costs why not last year?
I just need to figure how to adjust it from the confounded xmd3 contraption!
Best adjustment tool for that head unit is called a hammer!
Maybe there is a way to tension it down so that it has better resistance as to not "over hit it".
There are "limit" and "resistance" adjustment screws built into the throttle control.
PendO
08-27-2005, 02:13 AM
MYMC (or someone else) ... so is the PP/DBW setup different in the 06 197's than it was in the 05 197's, or has just the PP display changed?
rektek
08-27-2005, 09:02 AM
The biggest problem I see with throttle bodies [fly by wire] is when there's a fault, it goes into limp home mode, check engine light on and severely reduced throttle response, basically not much more than idle. I have never seen one go to wot. they generally have 2 potentiometers built in and compare data from both, the ecm also looks at pedal sensor request and compares with throttle position if one doesn't jive with the other it goes into limp home mode.
the upside is better throttle response, no cables as someone mentioned, improved idle as every time before the engine starts it does a quick calibration with the key on. in autos throttle modules make it easier to keep proper idle speeds with changing loads from alternator and A/C system. of-course no need for separate servo for cruise control.
the auto manufactures are under scrutiny right now due to some high failure rates of throttle modules and NHTSA is considering forcing them to increase warranties to 100k miles. I'm not sure how this would effect the boating industry.
the next step for boats will be Can bus communication and or fiber optics. I bet some manufacture is already looking at it real hard.
:steering: cheers
ski36short
08-27-2005, 12:19 PM
the auto manufactures are under scrutiny right now due to some high failure rates of throttle modules and NHTSA is considering forcing them to increase warranties to 100k miles. I'm not sure how this would effect the boating industry
What company(ies)? I only know of Volvo.
MYMC (or someone else) ... so is the PP/DBW setup different in the 06 197's than it was in the 05 197's, or has just the PP display changed?
The software has changed as well to include adjustment for CS and CR (PP Pro Version), and CS in PP Wake.
BuoyChaser
08-29-2005, 02:16 PM
I'm picking up a 2005 197 next week with MCX engine and it doesn't come with PerfectPass Digital Pro from the factory, but will need for course skiing. Any suggestions? Called up PP direct and they indicated just for system $1145 price tag, plus have to send something back to Indmar for resetting. Please help!!!
I'm picking up a 2005 197 next week with MCX engine and it doesn't come with PerfectPass Digital Pro from the factory, but will need for course skiing. Any suggestions? Called up PP direct and they indicated just for system $1145 price tag, plus have to send something back to Indmar for resetting. Please help!!!
call your dealer for a price
it'll be easy to install if you want to diy
call mymc for a quote or jim@baws .
your dealer can reflash the ecm for you without returning it to indmar. reflash is needed on dbw setups when installing Perfect Pass.
Ric covered it all let me know if we can help.
BuoyChaser
08-29-2005, 03:59 PM
will i need a new display as well???any benefits or changes that would be different on the '06???
i want to know when GPS will replace magnets in the course...
I would do the new display...I have lived with it for a few weeks in my 2006 and have grown fond of it. It is included in the price of the system.
BuoyChaser
09-09-2005, 04:58 PM
can't wait to check out the new display, glad i waited...my poor dad got stuck with an early model '05 so it only has v6.5 and old display of course...