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mikey.145
02-19-2011, 10:49 AM
It's time to replace the batteries on my 07' X45, one is so bad it won't even take a charge. Do you guys think it's worth the money to buy the higher end gel cells or get some deep cycle marine batteries from walmart that have a 3 year warranty?
Iam also running an additional amp powering two 12" subs.

willyt
02-19-2011, 11:03 AM
buy cheap, buy often, buy alot

tex
02-19-2011, 11:04 AM
It's time to replace the batteries on my 07' X45, one is so bad it won't even take a charge. Do you guys think it's worth the money to buy the higher end gel cells or get some deep cycle marine batteries from walmart that have a 3 year warranty?
Iam also running an additional amp powering two 12" subs.

You can search it here on TT. Verbal fist fights have almost broken out over this subject! Seems to be fairly split...good luck! For what it's worth...I have 2 regular marine units.

medicmoose
02-19-2011, 11:05 AM
Do you run caps for the amps driving the subs? They tend to help "baby" the battery a bit. For the type of environment we run in, I personally just get a decent deep cycle battery and have not been convinced that going to a "high end" battery will save you anything in the long run.

mikey.145
02-19-2011, 11:12 AM
I agree medicmoose, and no Iam not running caps on the amps. Where can I find those?

medicmoose
02-19-2011, 11:14 AM
I agree medicmoose, and no Iam not running caps on the amps. Where can I find those?

Pretty much any stereo shop....not sure if they make marine specific capacitors or not but might be worth looking into.

mikey.145
02-19-2011, 11:24 AM
Pretty much any stereo shop....not sure if they make marine specific capacitors or not but might be worth looking into.

Duh Capacitors! I'am familiar with those. Probably not a bad idea. Thanks guys for the info.

scott023
02-19-2011, 11:26 AM
I replaced the Optimas that came in our '08 X45 with Interstate marine batteries. Huge improvement in all around performance from the Optimas (which were POS).

medicmoose
02-19-2011, 11:27 AM
I replaced the Optimas that came in our '08 X45 with Interstate marine batteries. Huge improvement in all around performance from the Optimas (which were POS).

I've heard the same thing repeatedly but have no experience with them.

scott023
02-19-2011, 11:30 AM
I've heard the same thing repeatedly but have no experience with them.

Battery no.1 (which we tried to start with everytime) drained each and every time we went out. Had to charge it after each use. Terrible, over priced rubbish. No problems with the Interstate, we only flip the battery switch to single and with stereo, extra ballast pumps etc. running off it it has performed without fail.

mikey.145
02-19-2011, 11:41 AM
I have Interstate marines in their now and they have performed great, the only reason one went dead was due to a faulty battery switch which I just replaced! Think Iam going to buy some more of them.

scott023
02-19-2011, 11:43 AM
I have Interstate marines in their now and they have performed great, the only reason one went dead was due to a faulty battery switch which I just replaced! Think Iam going to buy some more of them.

They obviously get my vote. :D

EarmarkMarine
02-19-2011, 11:58 AM
I think you mean AGM rather than GEL.
Never had problems with any major brand of AGM including Optima...when the proper maintenance disciplines are used. This is widely misunderstood, particularly with an AGM. However, you will get more bang for the buck in a standard flooded battery when it comes to amp/hours, especially since you are using a group 24 versus a group 34. Each has the same footprint but the 24 is taller, heavier and has greater capacity within the same type.
If you want to maximize battery performance and longevity then use a dual-bank 3-stage smart marine AC shore charger with a good amperage capacity comensurate with your amp/hour reserves. We're not talking starting batteries here that are largely put up fully charged. We're talking deep cycles that are often deeply discharged by a large audio system while at rest. And, are often put into storage for a week or an off-season in a partially depleted state. That and sulphation are the killers.
No need for a stiffening capacitor in a boat. Its an esoteric addition that doesn't address the primary challenges in boating charging systems. A cap can stiffen the voltage for micro musical transients but it can't raise the voltage. In an auto that is driven daily a cap is always in parallel with the battery and never discharged. In a boat it is often isolated from the battery when stored since it would otherwise present a minimal but constant drain as it self-discharges. When initially installing a stiffening capacitor, a resistor is used to slowly charge it up. When fully discharged and frequently recharged violently upon sudden introduction to the battery, a cap will be eventually and permanently damaged. Then it is no longer an asset but a liability to your charging system.

David
Earmark Marine

1985 Skiier
02-19-2011, 12:00 PM
Not to start a war, but my two cents. I have had great luck with Optima Batteries. I have a yellow top and red top in my Jeep, Blue top and Yellow top in the Mastercraft which I robbed from the fishing boat which has three other batteries anyway.

No mess, no water, no leaky acid, no corrosion. I use loctite purple battery terminal spray on all of my connections. My buddy has a ten year old red top that is still going. The trick is to not let them stay dead if they drain down. Oh by the way my blue and yellow top are 6 years old and are sitting with 13.4 volts!

scott023
02-19-2011, 12:11 PM
I know several people that have had no problems with Optima batteries as well. Just stating my experience with them. I had one in my car when I was younger and had no issues... but the marine ones I had were bad enough that I wouldn't buy another one.

JimN
02-19-2011, 12:26 PM
Also, re: "deep cycle" batteries, that term doesn't mean "totally depleted". From http://www.batterymart.com/p-2009-06-15-deep-cycle-battery-care.html , "For best battery life, batteries should not be discharged below 80% of their rated capacity. Proper battery sizing will help avoid excessive discharge."

1985 Skiier
02-19-2011, 12:28 PM
Understandable, you said it drained everytime you went out. It was a blue top you are talking about right? Was it not getting a charge from the alternator?

mikey.145
02-19-2011, 12:35 PM
I think you mean AGM rather than GEL.
Never had problems with any major brand of AGM including Optima...when the proper maintenance disciplines are used. This is widely misunderstood, particularly with an AGM. However, you will get more bang for the buck in a standard flooded battery when it comes to amp/hours, especially since you are using a group 24 versus a group 34. Each has the same footprint but the 24 is taller, heavier and has greater capacity within the same type.
If you want to maximize battery performance and longevity then use a dual-bank 3-stage smart marine AC shore charger with a good amperage capacity comensurate with your amp/hour reserves. We're not talking starting batteries here that are largely put up fully charged. We're talking deep cycles that are often deeply discharged by a large audio system while at rest. And, are often put into storage for a week or an off-season in a partially depleted state. That and sulphation are the killers.
No need for a stiffening capacitor in a boat. Its an esoteric addition that doesn't address the primary challenges in boating charging systems. A cap can stiffen the voltage for micro musical transients but it can't raise the voltage. In an auto that is driven daily a cap is always in parallel with the battery and never discharged. In a boat it is often isolated from the battery when stored since it would otherwise present a minimal but constant drain as it self-discharges. When initially installing a stiffening capacitor, a resistor is used to slowly charge it up. When fully discharged and frequently recharged violently upon sudden introduction to the battery, a cap will be eventually and permanently damaged. Then it is no longer an asset but a liability to your charging system.

David
Earmark Marine

Thanks David for taking the time to write that explenation.

scott023
02-19-2011, 12:49 PM
Understandable, you said it drained everytime you went out. It was a blue top you are talking about right? Was it not getting a charge from the alternator?

It was a Blue top, and no, it would accept the charge. Manufacturer said that it was a faulty battery and refunded the value of it, as I told them I didn't want a replacement.

TallRedRider
02-19-2011, 12:49 PM
Also, re: "deep cycle" batteries, that term doesn't mean "totally depleted". From http://www.batterymart.com/p-2009-06-15-deep-cycle-battery-care.html , "For best battery life, batteries should not be discharged below 80% of their rated capacity. Proper battery sizing will help avoid excessive discharge."

An AGM battery is better capable of fully being discharged and ressurrected. That is the greatest benefit to them, IMO. If you sit at the beach, and rock until it dies, an AGM will be far superior in longevity, assuming you do what David says and get an onboard charger so you don't leave them depleted for days and days.

I know several people that have had no problems with Optima batteries as well. Just stating my experience with them. I had one in my car when I was younger and had no issues... but the marine ones I had were bad enough that I wouldn't buy another one.

Seems like I hear all of these complaints from people who bought Optimas in about 2008. Before and since seem to have had better luck. Mine bought in 2006 or so are still running strong in my old boat.

JimN
02-19-2011, 01:02 PM
An AGM battery is better capable of fully being discharged and ressurrected. That is the greatest benefit to them, IMO. If you sit at the beach, and rock until it dies, an AGM will be far superior in longevity, assuming you do what David says and get an onboard charger so you don't leave them depleted for days and days.

Seems like I hear all of these complaints from people who bought Optimas in about 2008. Before and since seem to have had better luck. Mine bought in 2006 or so are still running strong in my old boat.

People don't change their impellers and oil on a regular basis- what makes you think everyone will maintain their batteries properly? Having been a boat mechanic, I learned that people DON'T always want to pay someone to do things for them and even then, they WON'T do what is needed. In a perfect world, yes, a battery will be connected to a charger immediately upon docking or being trailered but in the real world, this doesn't always happen. Then, when someone finds that they have a dead battery, the first thing they do is jump-start it and beat the living daylights out of their alternator. This is usually done with a little 200A battery pack or a running car/truck, thereby beating the crap out of that alternator's rectifier.

How many times have we seen people ask for the cheapest way to do things here, with boats that can cost well over $50K? For those people, an AGM battery is out of the question.

Jeff Lyman
02-19-2011, 01:02 PM
My company leased out one of our street legal stock cars to Optima Batteries in 09 for a nationwide show tour, geat people at that company. I think the best part of those batteries is the ability to mount them anywhere you want. Never owned one long enough to see how they last but this battery has now gone through 2 winters, we will see how it is in the spring.

scott023
02-19-2011, 01:09 PM
People don't change their impellers and oil on a regular basis- what makes you think everyone will maintain their batteries properly? Having been a boat mechanic, I learned that people DON'T always want to pay someone to do things for them and even then, they WON'T do what is needed. In a perfect world, yes, a battery will be connected to a charger immediately upon docking or being trailered but in the real world, this doesn't always happen. Then, when someone finds that they have a dead battery, the first thing they do is jump-start it and beat the living daylights out of their alternator. This is usually done with a little 200A battery pack or a running car/truck, thereby beating the crap out of that alternator's rectifier.

How many times have we seen people ask for the cheapest way to do things here, with boats that can cost well over $50K? For those people, an AGM battery is out of the question.

For the record, out Optima was a problem from the first time it was used. Brand new and wouldn't start the motor without the second battery turned on.

1985 Skiier
02-19-2011, 01:13 PM
For an Optima race car that battery sure is wired like crap!

EarmarkMarine
02-19-2011, 01:18 PM
As mentioned above, cycling a battery too deeply, even a deep cycle, shortens the battery's lifespan. It will tolerate an inordinate number of shallower cycles and fewer number of deeper cycles. Its not an equal ratio. So more battery capacity would usually mean shallower cycling. But, you have to balance this with preserving your alternator. A number of fully charged batteries do not represent a threat but a few fully discharged (10.5V) group 31s could have your alternator running as hot as an exhaust manifold (figuratively speaking). As your audio system size crosses various thresholds along with your battery capacity you have to change the scheme to suit. This may mean putting to task an ACR/VSR and becoming more dependent on shore charging. And, you need an ACR/VSR scheme that allows for isolated dual bank charging. For over the top systems a cascaded scheme can be put to use.
AGMs may require a little higher voltage than the alternator will supply and for a long duration to completly charge. A steady diet of a really good shore charger is precisely what AGMs need.

David
Earmark Marine

bturner2
02-19-2011, 02:15 PM
I have three seasons on a pair of Optima Blue Tops. No problems what so ever so far. I also have the Blue Seas "add a battery" kit installed that automatically charges both batteries which may play a part in my positive experience. If you don't like Optima there are several other manufactures such as Kinetic that you may want to look into.

Flooded cell is going to be cheaper but I personally like the fact that there is no acid to leak, spill or vent into the boat. One of the reasons I went AGM was to eliminate the above mentioned negatives of 30's era battery technology. Below is a picture of my set up. Much cleaner than the black plastic battery boxes, no worries about getting acid on your clothes or corrosion on the posts.

mikey.145
02-19-2011, 02:36 PM
I have three seasons on a pair of Optima Blue Tops. No problems what so ever so far. I also have the Blue Seas "add a battery" kit installed that automatically charges both batteries which may play a part in my positive experience. If you don't like Optima there are several other manufactures such as Kinetic that you may want to look into.

Flooded cell is going to be cheaper but I personally like the fact that there is no acid to leak, spill or vent into the boat. One of the reasons I went AGM was to eliminate the above mentioned negatives of 30's era battery technology. Below is a picture of my set up. Much cleaner than the black plastic battery boxes, no worries about getting acid on you clothes or corrosion on the posts.

Thanks for posting that picture. Looks great!