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makaveli2308
02-07-2011, 09:42 PM
So my question is should the tanks be filled and drained one at a time, or can you fill and drain all three at once ?

sand2snow22
02-08-2011, 12:05 AM
I think the manual says do them individually and have the RPM's above 1,500. Honestly, these pumps can go out at the blink of eye, so IMO it doesn't matter......

MattsCraft
02-08-2011, 05:47 AM
I have never read that they have to be filled/empty one at a time. I fill and empty all 3 at the same time. Of course the KGB fills first, but I have sacs plumbed in the rears. I always fill sitting still, engine running @ 1500 RPM's and empty plowing at 1500. Keep in mind my fill and empty are on the bottom of my boat. I don't really pay attention to the VDIG gauge on fill, as we are always filling to full, so when the overflow spits, shut down that pump, I only watch the gauge on empty. 200 hrs, green impellers, 3 seasons no issue! My buddy, has an 05 that empty’s out the overflow, was running the pumps all the time just off the battery and has already burned up an impeller, so now he runs the engine at 1500, no issue. I think the main issue is enough voltage to the pump!

Also, keep in mind when I pull out of the water, I usually run each pump alone to get all the water out, I do this one at a time, as they are running on battery and only for a short time.

bturner2
02-08-2011, 06:58 AM
I'll fill the KGB and one of the back tanks at the same time as both will have a dedicated feed. I do this at idle (1000 - 1500 RPM) and it seems to work well. I try not to fill both back tanks at the same time as they share a hull pickup. I empty all tanks the same way and have found that they actually empty much quicker if the boat is running with the bow slightly up.

If you haven't already I'd suggest remounting your rear pumps so that the motor is above the pump housing. That's high on my list this year after losing a pump last year on my first day of vacation.

hbomb
02-08-2011, 05:28 PM
MattsCraft....... stupid question I guess........ but you run the pumps when the boat is sitting on the trailer out of the water I take it?
Guess the issue with the 07 X2 is the damn gauges....... they are all over the place with calibration and with the pick ups/drains being under the boat, without the gauge you really have no idea if there is any water in the tanks still.....short time?? will not shoot the impellers?

I have never read that they have to be filled/empty one at a time. I fill and empty all 3 at the same time. Of course the KGB fills first, but I have sacs plumbed in the rears. I always fill sitting still, engine running @ 1500 RPM's and empty plowing at 1500. Keep in mind my fill and empty are on the bottom of my boat. I don't really pay attention to the VDIG gauge on fill, as we are always filling to full, so when the overflow spits, shut down that pump, I only watch the gauge on empty. 200 hrs, green impellers, 3 seasons no issue! My buddy, has an 05 that empty’s out the overflow, was running the pumps all the time just off the battery and has already burned up an impeller, so now he runs the engine at 1500, no issue. I think the main issue is enough voltage to the pump!

Also, keep in mind when I pull out of the water, I usually run each pump alone to get all the water out, I do this one at a time, as they are running on battery and only for a short time.

MattsCraft
02-08-2011, 05:48 PM
Hbomb - To answer your question, yes, if I remeber that is, I run each pump until it times out after we pull out. Even with the VDIG, shows each tank as empty, there is still some water in the tanks. I do this one at a time, since I am running on battery, if you have duals, you can switch to combime to get a little more juice and they don't time out as fast.

willyt
02-08-2011, 06:29 PM
stupid impellers...
buying all green and remounting the pumps this weekend. Also getting that much-needed dual battery switch

(i'm the buddy with the 05 :) )

makaveli2308
02-08-2011, 07:00 PM
I will have to check over the weekend what color impellors are in the boat, i doubt it will be the green ones. What benefit is there in upgrading to the new green ones ?

These things seem to change every year ?

bturner2
02-08-2011, 07:46 PM
The green is a little stiffer and helps with a problem the others had where the KGB would fill up by itself. This is the second year for green. I upgraded last year and it seemed to be a bit better but still not great. The ballast is definitely the weak spot on these boats. The pumps are very expensive and mounted so that if the pump leaks it burns out the pump motor. You may want to check with wake makers to see if their prices are better then elsewhere.

Truth be told the pumps on my friend's BU VTX work much better. They fill and empty without all the effort I seem to go through to empty my tanks. They resemble the Tsunami pumps you use for a phat sack.

hbomb
02-08-2011, 11:34 PM
gotta say........ the ballast system on the X2 seems to attract a great deal of discussion.....

colours of impellors, pumps mounted whatever way so they crap themselves.........

the new tower is a real good example of this........... take a simple thing and %^&* it!
you do not need to be a NASA scientist do you!

your mate with the malibu????? does he have any issues with his ballast and I will assume it would be a "similar" set up........ pump water in and out of either a tank or a sack

can you sniff a brand of the pumps please bturner2

bturner2
02-09-2011, 09:50 AM
Completely different setup. From the quick look I had at his boat the pumps are mounted next to the tanks. They looked just like these.....

http://www.wakemakers.com/attwood-tsunami-ballast-pump-1200.html

I've been on his boat probably 20 times in the last two years and he's never had any problems. No resetting timers, no burned out pumps and no problems emptying tanks. He just hits the preset bottom for the type of water activity and all the pumps and wedge start dong their thing. He also gives me a bunch of sh*^&* for the dance I do to get my tanks to empty. I typically have to reset the timers and get the bow up to get the tanks empty. When my pump failed on the first day of vacation last summer I was the running gag for the trip. That episode was followed by a failed fuel pump two weeks later and a posting of a BU towing me in. Not a good MasterCraft summer last year.

hbomb
02-09-2011, 05:19 PM
many thanks bturner2......... a major project but I would envisage pulling the worthless crap out of the boat and going the Malibu way.......... wow.......... wash my mouth out!!
have not had any problems.........yet....... but I am sure as your backside points south, something will happen when we do not wont it to........
amazing! a 90k boat and all this crap!

rgardjr1
02-09-2011, 06:51 PM
My understanding about the aerator pumps is that they have to be installed below the water line since the won't self prime. You might need two per tank since they aren't reversible. Might get away with one if you installed some kind of valve system.

brucemac
02-09-2011, 06:58 PM
the malibus used to (maybe still do, don't know) use aerator style pumps in their system i think the sureflo piranha is oem, but it's similar to an atwood tsunami t800, which is what you'd find on the end of a fly high portable ballast pump. the major difference is that aerator pumps are not self-priming and you need two pumps for each bag, one to fill and one to drain as they are not reversible. the fill pump has to be located below the water line in order to prime and the drain pump at or very near the bag. the upside to an aerator system is that they are roughly every bit as fast as a impeller system, you can run them dry and that you can replace the motor cartridge for about $15-20. you don't have to mess with impellers or timers and the amp draw is about 3 amps per pump which is roughly a third of one ballast puppy. you also don't have to worry about the pumps themselves getting wet. the downside is you're looking at more hose and more holes in the boat if you're doing dedicated intakes.

sand2snow22
02-09-2011, 07:04 PM
the malibus used to (maybe still do, don't know) use aerator style pumps in their system i think the sureflo piranha is oem, but it's similar to an atwood tsunami t800, which is what you'd find on the end of a fly high portable ballast pump. the major difference is that aerator pumps are not self-priming and you need two pumps for each bag, one to fill and one to drain as they are not reversible. the fill pump has to be located below the water line in order to prime and the drain pump at or very near the bag. the upside to an aerator system is that they are roughly every bit as fast as a impeller system, you can run them dry and that you can replace the motor cartridge for about $15-20. you don't have to mess with impellers or timers and the amp draw is about 3 amps per pump which is roughly a third of one ballast puppy. you also don't have to worry about the pumps themselves getting wet. the downside is you're looking at more hose and more holes in the boat if you're doing dedicated intakes.

Well said Bruce. I will only add that when I spoke with a BU rep at the boat show last year. He pointed out that unlike MC's they rarely have problems and if they do, you can pick them up for cheap at West Marine or a hardware store.....

brucemac
02-09-2011, 07:09 PM
thanks sand. i was reading a thread in the tige owners forum a while back and found this information from a test one of the members ran. interesting to note the fill times. imo the fill time differential is negligible. so much so, i don't think you'd hardly notice the difference. i know i wouldn't care. the cost associated with going with faster pumps and thicker ID simply isn't worth it imo. law of diminishing returns i suppose.

source:
http://www.tigeowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13621

Rule 405FC 1100 GPH pump. 3/4" threaded inlet and a 1-1/8" outlet and 1" hose: 4:29 avg fill time.

Attwood Tsunami T1200 pump. 1-1/8 inlet and 1-1/8 outlet and 1" hose: 4:37 avg fill time.

Attwood Tsunami T1200 pump. 1-1/8 inlet and 1-1/8 outlet and 1" hose and W747 adapter: 4:44 avg fill time.

Attwood Tsunami T800 pump. 3/4" inlet and outlet with 1" hose. 4:57 avg fill time.

Attwood Tsunami T800 pump. 3/4" inlet and outlet with 3/4' hose and 3/4 Fly High quick-connects. 5:11 avg fill time

Attwood Tsunami T800 pump. 3/4" inlet and outlet with 3/4' hose and 3/4 Fly High quick-connects and the supplied 3/4 hose-barb connection on the outlet of the pump. 5:25 avg fill time

Jabsco Ballast Puppy reversible impeller type pump
1" hose and 1" Fly High Fittings filling at the bottom of the sac - Avg fill time = 5:20

1" hose and fittings filling at the top of the sac - Avg fill time 5:15

3/4" hose and fittings - Avg fill time = 5:42

sand2snow22
02-09-2011, 07:31 PM
I thought Tige's don't need ballast....LOL....

makaveli2308
02-09-2011, 07:33 PM
thanks for all the posts.

I think i will buy a spare ballast pump and order the green impellors asap. It seems a pretty tempremental system though.

I haven't had the boat for long so still working out all the little querks with the boat. I'm not sure about moving around all the pumps, but at some stage i would like to add teh fly high kit with the additional ballast and the new timers to it, but that will be next winters project.

thanks.

brucemac
02-09-2011, 07:44 PM
I thought Tige's don't need ballast....LOL....

lol, only if you want to wakesurf ;)

sorry for the threadjack makaveli. good luck with the boat

hbomb
02-09-2011, 07:56 PM
would also agree...fill times mean squat........
working out what colour impellor to use.......
making sure your pump is upside down, or rightside up or whatever.......
gauges that work - dont work
timers having to be reset, set
worrying about idling at 1500 to fill it
make sure the nose is up and you are planing to empty them......

the old saying goes....... I asked you the time and not how your watch works - what a drama!

brilliant information about the malibu/attwood pumps and not being self priming etc etc...... the keyword that sticks is that the owners have had no problems....
thanks again for this invaluable information and to be frank, like makaveli...my winter project will be to pull all the crap that is in there now out and after some thought and design...... replace it with something that when i go boating I do not have to worry about the thing expiring on me!
mastercraft........ it was like the 2007 towers...... had to fit braces because the thing did not do what it was designed to do....and rattled and shook
think about it guys............. simple is simple!

ShawnB
02-09-2011, 08:04 PM
Sorry for the stupid question but are these kinds of issues still present in the 2011s? In our '04 the only ballast issues we ever had was with the switches themselves.

brucemac
02-09-2011, 08:14 PM
i can't comment on newer boats, but it's my understanding not much has changed from a design standpoint aside from draining out the bottom. i think you probably hear about it a lot here because you only hear the negatives. there are definitely positives to the system itself and obviously you never hear someone coming on here saying my ballast system works awesome. my bet is there will most likely be a ballast system redesign in the future for MC, who knows maybe they are already working on it, but my guess is there's probably a lot of red tape involved for safety/coast guard concerns, etc. don't know. and then again, maybe not. imo, $30 for impellers, and $200 for pumps that are slightly delicate; i.e. when an impeller fails, is kind of a raw deal.

venetrex
02-09-2011, 08:30 PM
2007 Gauges are very easy to calibrate. The are carpeted panels on top of the 3 tanks Remove 1 screw and expose the sending unit. Just like the one on the fuel tank. There are 2 adjustment screws. One for full and 1 for empty. Empty the tak first and then set the screw so the pointer reads empty. Fill it up until the overflow starts and then adjust the pointer so it is full. Empty it and make sure it is within range, ie reads empty. Thats it. My 2007 gauges have been perfect since I fixed them. 2 seasons. And I have the fly high too.

hbomb
02-09-2011, 09:23 PM
bit slow today venetrex....... the 1 screw........ this is in the tank?? or holding the board to the tank??
best I have a look then come back on

jason@wakemakers.com
02-14-2011, 06:26 PM
We've helped a number of Mastercraft owners convert their factory systems over to use aerator pumps, so it's definitely doable, but it basically involved completely redoing the entire ballast system.

Malibu uses Sureflo Piranha Aerator Pumps (http://www.wakemakers.com/shurflo-piranha-aerator-ballast-pump-malibu.html), which are essentially identical to the Attwood T800 from a functionality standpoint. Aerator pumps make a lot of sense in many situations based on their cost, durability and compact size.

Mastercraft gets a lot of heat for their ballast systems, especially on this site, but if you spend time on some of the other owner communities, you'll see that all of the systems have their pros and cons. For example, adding additional bags is definitely easier with flexible vane impeller pumps like the Jabsco than it is with aerator pumps.

In the end, it really just comes down the situation, and what is important to each individual owner. That's where having someone that is knowledgeable about the different types of pumps, and the resulting system design is priceless.

hbomb
02-14-2011, 06:55 PM
Jason's last paragraph makes the most sense....... and another mentioned that people are pointing out the negatives only..........

we have a ballast system (2007 X2) which fills and empties from under the hull so you are reliant on firstly the pumps doing their job and then the gauges...... and these are the two things that everyone seems to complain about........ so it makes sense to pull all this crap out and utilise a "simple" system that pumps in the water and then pumps it out..... I would take a guess and say that my winter project will be to have the ballast fill from under the hull and empty at the "over flow" so I can at least see or hear for myself that the tanks are empty
timers......... thats another topic....... perhaps invent a pump that pumps it in and out and does not crap itself if it runs too long........ might use my pool pump as that has a run dry feature!!
Jason........ already communicating with my son but i am sure we will start dialogue in the not too distant future....

jason@wakemakers.com
02-14-2011, 08:26 PM
Sounds good, just let me know if you have any questions, I'd be happy to help out.

Thrall
02-14-2011, 09:06 PM
2007 Gauges are very easy to calibrate. The are carpeted panels on top of the 3 tanks Remove 1 screw and expose the sending unit. Just like the one on the fuel tank. There are 2 adjustment screws. One for full and 1 for empty. Empty the tak first and then set the screw so the pointer reads empty. Fill it up until the overflow starts and then adjust the pointer so it is full. Empty it and make sure it is within range, ie reads empty. Thats it. My 2007 gauges have been perfect since I fixed them. 2 seasons. And I have the fly high too.

That's good to know. I may try adjusting mine. They kind of worked 2 summers ago when I bought the boat. Now they go to full or mostly full and down to about half when empty.
I do like the convienence of the 06's emptying above waterline so you know when they're empty.

Thrall
02-14-2011, 09:14 PM
thanks for all the posts.

I think i will buy a spare ballast pump and order the green impellors asap. It seems a pretty tempremental system though.

I haven't had the boat for long so still working out all the little querks with the boat. I'm not sure about moving around all the pumps, but at some stage i would like to add teh fly high kit with the additional ballast and the new timers to it, but that will be next winters project.

thanks.

If the pumps aer mounted the same in the 07's, flipping them over isn't too hard. Did mine this winter, took about 2 hours. I just flipped them and plugged the hoses back in on the opposite sides though, so now fill=empty on the switches. The 2 rear pumps I was only able to re-mount with 2 of the 4 screws because I had to move the pumps up some to get the hoses to work, and the hoses barely work on the rear pumps, but it was do able without cutting or adding any hose.
I looked into spinning the switches 180 deg to cure the fill=empty problem, but everything is wired very neatly and ziptied together at the switch panel that it owuld have been difficult and made a mess of the wiring. I looked into the breaker/relay panel, but no easy way to switch directions there as all 6 hookups to the relays are hard wired in to nice plugs for the relays. WOuld have had to cut/splice 6 wires outside the breaker box.
Easiest way to make the switches correct is to cut and re-splice the wires near the plug into the pumps from what I've seen.
For my purposes I'll leave them the way they are since I'm the only one typically running the ballast pumps in the boat.

makaveli2308
02-14-2011, 10:16 PM
Thrall,

Fantastic advice and thanks, but in all honesty that is way to difficult for my skill set.

I think i will leave it alone. Out of interest though, what is the main advantage to flipping the pumps ?

hbomb
02-14-2011, 11:23 PM
my understanding, the reason to flip pumps is if they are mounted with motor "below" impellor they risk leaking into the pump electrics... hence flipping them with motor "above" impellor??

Zaastra
02-15-2011, 02:14 AM
Hi all, new to this site, live in Australia and have recently imported an 08 X-2. The boat arrived with no manuals so I am learning as I go. Apart from the VDIG instead of gauges is the ballast system the same on the 08 as the 07 model. I am somewhat confused about all the talk about timers etc. Is there just one pump and 3 sets of valves or multiple pumps? I have so far only been able to locate one pump next to the engine. When I fill my tanks I run the pump until the water flows out the vents then put the switch back to the middle. To empty I just switch to empty and watch the VDIG gauge. The other day I experienced the ballast self draining with the switches in the neutral position. Is this normal? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

MattsCraft
02-15-2011, 08:39 AM
OK – First off, I will say I have had virtually no problems with the MC ballast system as long as you follow some very, very simple rules and my :twocents:, is way better than any complicated multi-pump aerator style system for the long haul.

Zaastra – Answers to your questions: You have 3 pumps, the one you see near the motor, engine whatever your preference, who really gives a Cr!p, I digress, is the KGB (Center) pump, and the other two are behind a carpeted panel mounted on the stern, behind that panel in your rear trunks. 4 screws to remove, pull each panel and you will see each pump. If you are having a siphoning problem, you need to change out your impellers to green, this will fix that problem. (Mine were switched under warranty as this is a known problem; of course my dealer is stellar!!! Cincy MC) The green impellers will fix this, fill and empty faster etc. The floats for the VDIG or gauges are on the floor of the rear lockers, under a carpeted panel shaped like the letter D, one screw to remove to expose the float and 2 or 4 screws to pull out the float to check it. I have not looked or found the KGB float, but again, not had a problem with calibration on my system to date.

If you add extra ballast, you will need to follow the procedure found here to extend the fill time to fill the bags. Once this is done, you will not have to re-do as long as the batteries stay connected. I have mine on a tender year round so this is not an issue.

This is clearly documented in the MC manual since ‘08”

Ballast Empty/Fill Switches

On boat models equipped with a ballast system, a separate three-position switch will allow for the filling or emptying of the ballast tanks and/or bags. Be aware that the engine must operate at 1500 RPM during the fill and empty processes. Check engine specifications for related engine idle speed, which may be too low for the empty/fill operation to be properly accomplished; it is likely that the boat will need to be in motion during the filling and emptying of the ballast system. Failure to increase engine RPM to the required level may result in malfunction or permanent damage to the ballast pumps that force the water through the system. Such damage is not covered under your warranty. The ballast controls vary in location by model, and the operator should determine exact location prior to use. The three-position switches are clearly marked FILL, OFF (in center), and EMPTY.

With the fill and empty on the bottom of the boat, I have found it to work best by filling standing still in neutral and empty while plowing at 1500 or above, doing this while empting puts less back pressure on the pumps. Of course for short periods, winterizing etc I run the pumps off of the battery. The system also has voltage sensors, so if the pump runs too long without water, they will time out. Lastly, following what I think is pretty simple rules, 200 hours on the green impellers and not one single issue to date. Great System MC !!!

Zaastra
02-16-2011, 06:27 AM
Thanks very much for your reply Mattscraft. I will check the impellors in the next couple of days. Are the timers there just in case you forget to switch the pumps off when the tanks are full.

MattsCraft
02-16-2011, 01:39 PM
Thanks very much for your reply Mattscraft. I will check the impellors in the next couple of days. Are the timers there just in case you forget to switch the pumps off when the tanks are full.

That's my understanding, people were burning up pumps. Not sure what year they were added, but for sure '08 up also have voltage sensors, if too much load, they will time out. One way to check this is to run a pump out of the water near empty, run the pump and after all the water is out the pump should time out, switch will blink.

jason@wakemakers.com
02-16-2011, 07:22 PM
I just flipped them and plugged the hoses back in on the opposite sides though, so now fill=empty on the switches.

The pump head on Jabsco pumps rotates 180 degrees, so all you have to do is rotate the pump head and you've effectively "switched" the connections so fill will still be fill, and drain will still be drain.

Thanks very much for your reply Mattscraft. I will check the impellors in the next couple of days. Are the timers there just in case you forget to switch the pumps off when the tanks are full.
The problem is actually when draining, as flexible vane impeller pumps (like the Jabsco) rely on water flowing through the pump head to cool and lubricate the impeller. When you're filling there is essentially an unlimited supply of water, but when you're draining, as soon as the tank is empty, there's no more water flowing through the pump.

That's what causes damage to impellers, which prematurely ages them, and reduces their lifespan. We want to avoid that if at all possible, so timers are a good addition.

That's my understanding, people were burning up pumps. Not sure what year they were added, but for sure '08 up also have voltage sensors, if too much load, they will time out. One way to check this is to run a pump out of the water near empty, run the pump and after all the water is out the pump should time out, switch will blink.
You won't burn up the pump, but you will destroy the impeller (and pretty quickly), so definitely limit any "testing" you do when there's no water flowing through the pump.

hbomb
02-16-2011, 08:10 PM
Jason........it that all jabsco (I have a 7/2007 X2).....
amazing how, if my memory serves me correctly, out of all the discussion about pumps being inverted so they do not leak into motor and theneverything being in reverse so switches had to be played with, no one has made mention that the pump rotates 180 degrees! how simple is that!
a well known fact or a secret from jabsco?

MattsCraft
02-16-2011, 09:44 PM
The pump head on Jabsco pumps rotates 180 degrees, so all you have to do is rotate the pump head and you've effectively "switched" the connections so fill will still be fill, and drain will still be drain.

The problem is actually when draining, as flexible vane impeller pumps (like the Jabsco) rely on water flowing through the pump head to cool and lubricate the impeller. When you're filling there is essentially an unlimited supply of water, but when you're draining, as soon as the tank is empty, there's no more water flowing through the pump.

That's what causes damage to impellers, which prematurely ages them, and reduces their lifespan. We want to avoid that if at all possible, so timers are a good addition.


You won't burn up the pump, but you will destroy the impeller (and pretty quickly), so definitely limit any "testing" you do when there's no water flowing through the pump.

Jason, pretty cool, I was thinking of turning my pumps over, but did not want the fill/empty to be switched, very nice, might have to do this in the spring.


I mostly only run the pumpsfor a short period, drain each tank after an outing. I always do this one at a time and shut the pump down when I don't hear any water dumping out. Most times the pump times out before the water stops dumping when running on battery, but possibly doing more harm than good??? Thanks for your insight, always good my man!!!

Thrall
02-17-2011, 09:37 AM
[QUOTE=jason@wakemakers.com;733010]The pump head on Jabsco pumps rotates 180 degrees, so all you have to do is rotate the pump head and you've effectively "switched" the connections so fill will still be fill, and drain will still be drain.
QUOTE]

Thanks for that tip Jason. Appreciate your help.

jason@wakemakers.com
02-17-2011, 04:48 PM
a well known fact or a secret from jabsco?
It's definitely not well known, but I don't think they're trying to keep it a secret either. :)

There's instructions for removing the pump head and reassembling it in the owner's manual (which can be downloaded from our site on the Jabsco Ballast Puppy (http://www.wakemakers.com/jabsco-ballast-puppy-wakeboard-pump.html) page).

hbomb
02-17-2011, 05:50 PM
jason sensational.......
I would bet that by the number of posts that this was a well kept secret
another question. when changing the impellor, is it "normal" practice to replace the O ring on the pump body or can you get way with reusing if it looks ok.... and if cactus, I assume it can be purcahsed easily enough as a spare - from you? - and yes, excuse the dumb question but its my first venture into the X2 which appears to have more plumbing in it than the crappers at Wrigley Field

Thrall
02-18-2011, 01:19 PM
Sorry hbomb didn't see you mentioned rotating the pumps. I;ve changed my impellers without changing the orings and they don't leak.

jason@wakemakers.com
02-18-2011, 06:45 PM
Yep, no reason to change the seal unless you have leaking or see visible damage when you pull it apart. A light coating of petroleum jelly will prevent the o-ring from drying out, and extend its life significantly.