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View Full Version : Good read on ILMOR


duckguy
11-21-2010, 03:39 PM
http://redlinewatersports.blogspot.com/2010/11/ilmor-power.html

rgardjr1
11-21-2010, 04:34 PM
Nice find. I wonder how much longer Indmar will be a choice in new boats.

duckguy
11-21-2010, 09:57 PM
Not long IMHO

JimN
11-21-2010, 10:06 PM
Nice find. I wonder how much longer Indmar will be a choice in new boats.

Competition may be good for boat owners. Since Penske owns Ilmor and MC, I doubt Malibu, Nautique, Supra/Moomba or any other manufacturer will be rushing out to buy engines from Ilmor.

JimN
11-21-2010, 10:09 PM
Not long IMHO

Why? If nobody asks for specific changes to the performance from Indmar, they have no real reason to change anything and there's nothing wrong with Indmar engines. I also don't remember seeing anyone from Ilmor coming here to give free info, like EngineNut has.

duckguy
11-22-2010, 10:21 AM
JimN, the reality is that the Ilmor motors are superior in terms of performance and design. I have driven them and seen tests by others and they appear to have stronger performance characteristics. The other part is that this is business, with Penske owning a manufacturer of a superior product why would they want to go to a third party that from what I hear cause them a lot of behind the scenes internal grief?

Prostar19
11-22-2010, 10:54 AM
Why? If nobody asks for specific changes to the performance from Indmar, they have no real reason to change anything and there's nothing wrong with Indmar engines. I also don't remember seeing anyone from Ilmor coming here to give free info, like EngineNut has.

I would say give them time. How long was Indmar a supplier to MC before they came out with EngineNut? Ilmor has only been there a few months. I would hope they come out with the same or better forum

JimN
11-22-2010, 11:07 AM
JimN, the reality is that the Ilmor motors are superior in terms of performance and design. I have driven them and seen tests by others and they appear to have stronger performance characteristics. The other part is that this is business, with Penske owning a manufacturer of a superior product why would they want to go to a third party that from what I hear cause them a lot of behind the scenes internal grief?

That's fine but MC isn't the only boat maker using Indmar and if the others are happy with what they're getting, there's no reason they should feel they need to change. Also, not every boat owner feels the need for speed and knowledge of the specs. The majority wouldn't know what they were looking at if a spec sheet was in front of them, anyway. Obviously, some users are far more interested and know a lot more and for them, the Ilmor makes sense. Bottom line- the Indmar motors don't have many problems- it's usually the accessories that fail, an occasional mis-measured location (like the alternator pulley) or an incorrect bolt hardness (like the alternators on the LT-1/LTR). The motors themselves rarely scatter without some outside influence.

Plus, you can't put an engine that puts out a buttload of power and torque in a hull that may not have been designed for it. These aren't go-fast boats.

You don't expect Sea Ray to stop using Mercruiser drive-trains, do you?

JimN
11-22-2010, 11:08 AM
I would say give them time. How long was Indmar a supplier to MC before they came out with EngineNut? Ilmor has only been there a few months. I would hope they come out with the same or better forum

EngineNut is a person, not a thing- he's a member of Team Talk.

CantRepeat
11-22-2010, 11:14 AM
Seems more like and ad then anything else.

Prostar19
11-22-2010, 11:26 AM
EngineNut is a person, not a thing- he's a member of Team Talk.

oops i goofed on that one

rgardjr1
11-22-2010, 11:45 AM
I originally poised the question more from a business standpoint vs which manufacturer makes the better product. If Penske still has a stake in both Ilmore and Mastercraft seems like the writing is on the wall after a few years of gearing up and shaking down the new product line.

duckguy
11-22-2010, 12:04 PM
Hit on the head! In this case Ilmor also makes a superior product. Win win!

duckguy
11-22-2010, 12:07 PM
Also find it a little funny there is concern about Ilmor HP. Why advertise? The Indmar's have been over rated for years!

Adam Wanichek
11-22-2010, 12:09 PM
Ilmor definitely knows how to make HP....
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/2071078315.html
looks like fun

bturner2
11-22-2010, 02:30 PM
While the Ilmor's certainly do seem to have design features that are advanced and the obvious political connection between a common owner is in place, Mark Twain's quote "the rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated" comes to mind. Indmar's been making a quality product for a long time and as Jim states it's been a pretty solid package. And at a decent price.

Despite the Ilmor cheer leading no one really knows how these engines will hold up under use from the vast number of everyday customers. I'm not saying they won't be absolutely great, just that I probably wouldn't want one the first year they hit the market.

I still remember when OMC came out with the Cobra outdrive. It was made of superior materials, had advance features and thousands of hours of factory testing. They ended being a very good product but not without flaws that didn't show up until they got in consumer's hands.

As to HP, why not advertise? I've seen dyno sheets for the RTP and the MCX. Other engine builders like Roush, Keith Black and Shelby post their numbers. Unless I'm missing something why wouldn't you answer a customer's question about a product they want to purchase from you? Would you buy a Mustang GT or a Camaro SS without knowing the HP of the engine option you were buying?

MCwake
11-22-2010, 05:39 PM
Competition may be good for boat owners. Since Penske owns Ilmor and MC, I doubt Malibu, Nautique, Supra/Moomba or any other manufacturer will be rushing out to buy engines from Ilmor.

Penske doesn't own Mastercraft. Wayzata Investment Partners, a Minneapolis-based investment firm ownes Mastercraft Boat Company. The firm focuses its investments in the distressed markets, typically in the debt securities and bank debt of distressed companies, which are in bankruptcy or undergoing financial restructuring or reorganization.

Good luck to Mastercraft & Ilmor!

broncotw
11-23-2010, 01:12 PM
I have had several Indmar engines and never had a serious problem.... I totally agree with Jim’s assessment “Indmar being a solid option" for MasterCraft owners...

Currently, I am on my second MCX and I am not sure really how much better an Ilmore engine could be.... I mean really, the MCX starts every time with a half turn of the key and almost pulls my arms out of my shoulder sockets upon starting…. The MCX also gets me to the speed I want to be at very quickly (I ski at 36mph)….. What would be the ultimate goal -- to actually pull my arms out of their sockets? Don't get me wrong, I love big power and HP but really I have no reason to go faster than 43mph (I have not done much barefooting but I would guess this would be close to what they would need for top speed). If I wanted to go faster I would invest in a boat built for speed.... I guess as technology improves so will the engines – but really – how much better can they get? Seems to me the technology in inboards engines has kind of peaked… I would like to see the technology tackle issues such as better fuel consumption and improving the wakes these boats produce (bigger for wake boarders and smaller for the slalom skiers).

So, I guess my question is this: Why change? If Indmar has a great history of building engines which are solid in performance and reliability, and can be sold MUCH cheaper than the Ilmore engines -- what's the advantage of changing (for the customer and MasterCraft)?

vision
11-23-2010, 02:13 PM
I have had several Indmar engines and never had a serious problem.... I totally agree with Jim’s assessment “Indmar being a solid option" for MasterCraft owners...

Currently, I am on my second MCX and I am not sure really how much better an Ilmore engine could be.... I mean really, the MCX starts every time with a half turn of the key and almost pulls my arms out of my shoulder sockets upon starting…. The MCX also gets me to the speed I want to be at very quickly (I ski at 36mph)….. What would be the ultimate goal -- to actually pull my arms out of their sockets? Don't get me wrong, I love big power and HP but really I have no reason to go faster than 43mph (I have not done much barefooting but I would guess this would be close to what they would need for top speed). If I wanted to go faster I would invest in a boat built for speed.... I guess as technology improves so will the engines – but really – how much better can they get? Seems to me the technology in inboards engines has kind of peaked… I would like to see the technology tackle issues such as better fuel consumption and improving the wakes these boats produce (bigger for wake boarders and smaller for the slalom skiers).

So, I guess my question is this: Why change? If Indmar has a great history of building engines which are solid in performance and reliability, and can be sold MUCH cheaper than the Ilmore engines -- what's the advantage of changing (for the customer and MasterCraft)?

I second the comment that the MCX is a good and reliable engine.

I do think there is better fuel efficiency and more power to be had from the 5.7 engine. Whether it is cost effective to pursue the engine modifications required to improve the engine is another story. But I think having additional competition for Indmar will make an already good engine builder even better.

rgardjr1
11-23-2010, 02:53 PM
Penske doesn't own Mastercraft. Wayzata Investment Partners, a Minneapolis-based investment firm ownes Mastercraft Boat Company.

Unless they bought Penske out he still owns a percentage of Mastercraft-just not as large a percentage as Wayzata ...

So, I guess my question is this: Why change? If Indmar has a great history of building engines which are solid in performance and reliability, and can be sold MUCH cheaper than the Ilmore engines -- what's the advantage of changing (for the customer and MasterCraft)?

Say you own a company that makes and sells bread. You make a certain amount of money based on how many loafs of bread you sell.

Now say you own a company that makes bread and a company that makes flour. If your flour company can make enough flour to fully supply 100% of your bread company's needs-would you want to let another company sell flour to your bread company? Wouldn't you rather make money on both the flour and bread?

BIGBADBLUE
11-23-2010, 03:38 PM
OK, say you have a person at your front door with a pizza box in his hand. What would you call him?

An Ohio State graduate.

Go Blue!!!

broncotw
11-23-2010, 04:09 PM
Good stuff BIGBADBLUE! I agree! Go Wolverines!!!

duckguy
11-23-2010, 07:40 PM
It is certainly usual and customary for many TT members being resistant to change. Why would I want this "Windows?" I can operate DOS just fine, I cant imagine anything better."

romli
11-23-2010, 07:42 PM
OK, say you have a person at your front door with a pizza box in his hand. What would you call him?

An Ohio State graduate.

Go Blue!!!

Really!?!?

Here's some non-fiction:
1 & 8 vs. OSU since 2001 w/ 4 losses at the Big House
99th ranked defense in the country
4 of 13 field goal kicking
3 year NCAA probation for coaching violations
"Head Coach" admittedly contributes just $0.02 to defense
No wins over past 3 seasons against teams w/ more than 1 game over 0.500 record

If you've been in a coma or otherwise incapacitated for the past few years I sincerely apologize. Enjoy the game tomorrow, last week was a hoot!

-Badger Alum & Fan

BIGBADBLUE
11-23-2010, 08:34 PM
Really!?!?

Here's some non-fiction:
1 & 8 vs. OSU since 2001 w/ 4 losses at the Big House
99th ranked defense in the country
4 of 13 field goal kicking
3 year NCAA probation for coaching violations
"Head Coach" admittedly contributes just $0.02 to defense
No wins over past 3 seasons against teams w/ more than 1 game over 0.500 record

If you've been in a coma or otherwise incapacitated for the past few years I sincerely apologize. Enjoy the game tomorrow, last week was a hoot!

-Badger Alum & Fan

I was simply conveying a story in a funny manner that has a lot of truth. It is called a joke. All your facts are correct but want to know one that I find even better?

What is the #11th most lopsided rivalries is the history of football? Michigan is 61 games over .500 when playing WISCONSIN or a .795 winning percentage.

The funnier thing is that remember 2008? Ouch that hurts even worse to get beat by a 3-9 team coached by a crook.

The even funnier thing is that we will fire our coach and return to being a championship team. When was the last time Wisconsin won a national championship?

How is that UW basketball team doing after UNLV?

Now - Lets get back to the task at hand ... making fun of OSU people because when we get dominated on Saturday I will have to shut my pie hole.

Anyone know what Big ten school has the lowest ACT, SAT and incoming freshman GPA scores? You guessed it. OSU!!!!

BIGBADBLUE
11-23-2010, 08:42 PM
Sorry for the thread jack ... back to Ilmor

What is the technology difference between the 5.7 and 6.0 Ilmor. Their website says the 6.0 and 6.2 are technologically advance. How? You can tell I am slow and not an engine guy. I am deciding between and 6.0 and 5.7 in my 14V. I understand the torque and HP difference but are their technical differences between them?

redline
11-23-2010, 08:44 PM
Here's the deal.

Penske does not own ANY part of MasterCraft any more.

For years, the guys at MasterCraft have tried to set their boats apart in whatever way they could. One of the challenges in the boat biz is the limited supply of vendors. Simply a boat company designs the boat. Period. Almost every component is sourced out, from the gel to the resin to the windshields, etc. etc. With a very small pool of suppliers, it becomes difficult to separate one from the crowd. MC learned that lesson big time with their tower supplier in Tennessee. So instead of "staying the course" they took a big, but calculated risk with this incredible engineer from Chicago. Long story short, they now have a supplier that ONLY supplies AND designs parts (just about every aluminum component on the boat). That relationship has seasoned and at it's peak, Gere Marie was shipping 112,000 parts a week to MC. They shipped zero to every other inboard company, even though the calls for parts and towers are still coming in. Look at the result. Instead of me-too grab rails, tower racks, gauge bezels, your MasterCraft has it's own identity unique to the industry. For those of you owning and older MC, you should send these guys a Christmas card for helping your boat better hold it's value.

To the engines, sorry for the big intro..The decision to move on to Ilmor is rooted in the Company's DNA. They don't sit still, they don't "stay the course" and they know darn well that the majority of owners and to-be owners expect this after 40+ years.

Here's what we have right now with Ilmor.

1) A 100% dedicated factory to the production of MasterCraft engines.
2) Out of the gate. 3 production engines, CARB certified and faster than the comparable Indmar. (Side by side tests have been performed at MasterCraft and in Colorado at elevation). From the ground up, a catalyzed exhaust system and a very, very accurate horsepower rating. Yes, the horsepower is in plain sight, you just have to know where to look.
3) A depth of engineering that the marine industry has NEVER seen. Know this folks, the entire marine industry takes about 12 days of GM's engine production. 12 Days! Not the biggest blip on the radar. That's why Ford and Dodge won't even look at us.
4) MasterCraft now has the freedom to work with the engineers in Detroit (HQ for Ilmor) and tap into a knowledge base that, again the marine industry has never seen.
5) The dealers got to experience their dealer meeting at the Penske race facility. (Nope, this means nothing to you guys, but OMG was that an experience of a lifetime even if one was not a race fan) :)
6) The demands of today's inboard customer are evolving quickly and our "caring" EPA is doing everything it can to limit the very power we need for our fun. Powertrain is going to be a big deal in the next 5 to 10 years as limits from Washington reign down.

Folks, as a dealer, we've been very happy with Indmar. Their engines have served the MC community well, as well as many of MC's competitors. We are excited to open a new chapter in powertrain and look forward to realizing some of the benefits that racing community experiences each weekend at the track.

Paul Vitucci
Redline Watersports

rgardjr1
11-23-2010, 09:11 PM
Here's the deal.
Paul Vitucci
Redline Watersports

Thanks for the insight!

romli
11-23-2010, 09:59 PM
Sorry for the thread jack ... back to Ilmor

What is the technology difference between the 5.7 and 6.0 Ilmor. Their website says the 6.0 and 6.2 are technologically advance. How? You can tell I am slow and not an engine guy. I am deciding between and 6.0 and 5.7 in my 14V. I understand the torque and HP difference but are their technical differences between them?

The 5.7L is a technological dinosaur compared to the 6.0L & 6.2L. It's a Gen I architecture that went out of (automotive/truck) production in 1999. On the other hand the Gen IV 6.0L L96 is currently in production in the Suburban, Silverado HD, Sierra HD & Yukon XL. It has aluminum heads and VVT. The all aluminum Gen IV 6.2L LS3 is currently offered in the Camaro SS and Corvette Coupe/Convertible/Grand Sport.

Think of the advancement in computers over the last 20 years. Current production engines have been developed with much more sophisticated Computational Fluid Dynamics, Finite Element Analysis and Statistical Process Control than all previous generations.

Jim@BAWS
11-24-2010, 07:24 AM
Think of the advancement in computers over the last 20 years. Current production engines have been developed with much more sophisticated Computational Fluid Dynamics, Finite Element Analysis and Statistical Process Control than all previous generations.


Ya and new and improved muffler bearings, upgraded flux capacitors and more powerful
dew- hickeys!!!


ILMOR is impressive. INDMAR has been a constant and has helped drive MC forward over the last 25 years. MC will set itself apart from the others like they always have and will. As a dealer we have opened our doors to ILMOR but certainly will maintain our relationship with INDMAR. They have been and will always be an asset to our dealership

Jim@BAWS

east tx skier
11-24-2010, 10:46 AM
Ya and new and improved muffler bearings, upgraded flux capacitors and more powerful
dew- hickeys!!!


ILMOR is impressive. INDMAR has been a constant and has helped drive MC forward over the last 25 years. MC will set itself apart from the others like they always have and will. As a dealer we have opened our doors to ILMOR but certainly will maintain our relationship with INDMAR. They have been and will always be an asset to our dealership

Jim@BAWS

24.75, but who's counting. 8p

TX.X-30 fan
11-24-2010, 11:10 AM
Way too close to LA ETS be careful.

Jim@BAWS
11-24-2010, 11:14 AM
24.75, but who's counting. 8p

You are!!!

MC had a mid year swap from PCM to INDMAR in 1986. INDMAR is celebrating its 25th year with MC hence the logo!!!

Jim@BAWS

east tx skier
11-24-2010, 11:51 AM
Easy there with those exclamation points, Jim. Just having some fun.

Just think how many people will be selling these boats as 25th Anniversary boats soon! ;)

You are!!!

MC had a mid year swap from PCM to INDMAR in 1986. INDMAR is celebrating its 25th year with MC hence the logo!!!

Jim@BAWS

Jim@BAWS
11-24-2010, 01:22 PM
Easy there with those exclamation points, Jim. Just having some fun.

Just think how many people will be selling these boats as 25th Anniversary boats soon! ;)


INTERNET ETTIQUIETTE (SP)

What ever...TAKE A JOKE...It was presented like when you presented your arguement there
counselor HA HA HA HAPPY THANKSGIVING THERE DOUGY BOY!!!

Jim@BAWS

aaron.
11-24-2010, 02:27 PM
i will not be jumping onto the ilmor bandwagon. Maybe after 5+ years, and its proven that these new engines hold up like the old, then i'll consider...

jason95gt
11-24-2010, 03:49 PM
Ilmor has had years of success in offshore racing along with just their engine knowledge that there is absolutely no need to wait and see how they hold up. Everything these guys do is top notch.

east tx skier
11-24-2010, 08:13 PM
INTERNET ETTIQUIETTE (SP)

What ever...TAKE A JOKE...It was presented like when you presented your arguement there
counselor HA HA HA HAPPY THANKSGIVING THERE DOUGY BOY!!!

Jim@BAWS

Happy Thanksgiving to you, too, Jim!!!

Engine Nut
11-24-2010, 10:00 PM
Also find it a little funny there is concern about Ilmor HP. Why advertise? The Indmar's have been over rated for years!

Just wanted to make sure everyone understands that Indmar does not advertise horsepower on our engines. You will not find HP listed on our website or in any of our product literature. The horsepower numbers associated with our engines are chosen by the boat manufacturer, not by us. We supply measured HP information to the boat manufacturer and they decide what HP number they want to use. They can choose any number they want that fits in their marketing plan as long as it is within plus or minus 10% of the measured HP. If our engines have been over rated for years you would need to take that up with the people that assign the numbers.

bturner2
11-24-2010, 10:01 PM
Off shore and ski boats are two very different beasts. One clear difference is that you don't get to break down the engine after every run on the ones that go into the ski boats. I'm sure they're a great builder but they wouldn't be the first manufacture to have a bad vendor-ed part shipped to them. These will also be production motors at a very different price point than the ones being installed in the go fast boats.

With all the bold statements being thrown around I certainly would hope they have zero problems.

JohnE
11-25-2010, 02:05 AM
Just wanted to make sure everyone understands that Indmar does not advertise horsepower on our engines. You will not find HP listed on our website or in any of our product literature. The horsepower numbers associated with our engines are chosen by the boat manufacturer, not by us. We supply measured HP information to the boat manufacturer and they decide what HP number they want to use. They can choose any number they want that fits in their marketing plan as long as it is within plus or minus 10% of the measured HP. If our engines have been over rated for years you would need to take that up with the people that assign the numbers.

Very enightening. Been hearing the 'controversary' for a few years and this now comes to light. Thanks for all of your input here.

JohnE
11-25-2010, 02:06 AM
It is certainly usual and customary for many TT members being resistant to change. Why would I want this "Windows?" I can operate DOS just fine, I cant imagine anything better."

Unless you unload that 08 and get an 11 your opinion doesn't matter.

sand2snow22
11-25-2010, 04:45 PM
Some drink the Kool-aid a little too much........

sand2snow22
11-25-2010, 04:46 PM
It is certainly usual and customary for many TT members being resistant to change. Why would I want this "Windows?" I can operate DOS just fine, I cant imagine anything better."

Apple?????????????

Alan
11-25-2010, 07:02 PM
Took delivery of a 197 with an Ilmor engine last week. Only had it in the water for a short period of time, but I'm impressed. Looking forward to giving it a workout next spring. Only issue I've discovered, there were no valves to shut off hot water to the heater core. Five bucks and a trip to Lowe's cured the issue.

east tx skier
11-29-2010, 02:35 PM
ILMOR is impressive. INDMAR has been a constant and has helped drive MC forward over the last 25 years. MC will set itself apart from the others like they always have and will. As a dealer we have opened our doors to ILMOR but certainly will maintain our relationship with INDMAR. They have been and will always be an asset to our dealership

Jim@BAWS

MasterCraft Signs Exclusive Agreement with Ilmor Marine (http://www.sbcwakeboard.com/headlines_article?news_id=578&uniqid=193)

"Vonore, TN --- MasterCraft Boat Company, the world's leading luxury performance inboard boat manufacturer, has announced it is partnering exclusively with Ilmor Marine engines for its power train needs beginning with the 2012 model year."

It will have been a good 26 year run.

JimN
11-29-2010, 02:44 PM
MasterCraft Signs Exclusive Agreement with Ilmor Marine (http://www.sbcwakeboard.com/headlines_article?news_id=578&uniqid=193)

"Vonore, TN --- MasterCraft Boat Company, the world's leading luxury performance inboard boat manufacturer, has announced it is partnering exclusively with Ilmor Marine engines for its power train needs beginning with the 2012 model year."

It will have been a good 26 year run.

It really makes sense- since MC is owned by the same group that owns Ilmor, continuing to buy engines from Indmar would be like Chevy buying engines from a Ford or Chrysler-owned company.

sand2snow22
11-29-2010, 02:55 PM
It really makes sense- since MC is owned by the same group that owns Ilmor, continuing to buy engines from Indmar would be like Chevy buying engines from a Ford or Chrysler-owned company.

If Penske doesn't own MC anymore, who does? Jim, look at post #27

JimN
11-29-2010, 03:15 PM
If Penske doesn't own MC anymore, who does? Jim, look at post #27

I'm sorry- never mind!

I didn't see that post.

Jim@BAWS
11-29-2010, 04:05 PM
MasterCraft Signs Exclusive Agreement with Ilmor Marine (http://www.sbcwakeboard.com/headlines_article?news_id=578&uniqid=193)

"Vonore, TN --- MasterCraft Boat Company, the world's leading luxury performance inboard boat manufacturer, has announced it is partnering exclusively with Ilmor Marine engines for its power train needs beginning with the 2012 model year."

It will have been a good 26 year run.


Doug...why the quote from me???

Jim@BAWS

east tx skier
11-29-2010, 05:47 PM
Doug...why the quote from me???

Jim@BAWS

I suppose it was because you were the one with whom I was most recently conversing in this thread. And this recent news seems to be the end of the era you described in the quote. I wasn't trying to be contrary by any means. I was just continuing along that topic line and your quote about 25 years with Indmar seemed to punctuate it well.

I'm sure you and other MC dealers will continue to do business with Indmar since there are 25 years of boats out there that will, at some point, need the replacement parts. Most of these may be regular GM parts. But the marine specific stuff will mean a continued dealer (and MC) relationship with Indmar.

Eagle
11-30-2010, 05:44 PM
I've ordered a 2011 X-25. It's a February build that needs to finalized in January. One of the things I have pondered the most is engine choice. Having both Indmar and Ilmor has made it even more confusing. I decided on the MCX. This recent press release by Mastercraft is no surprise, but did cause me to ask again, Indmar or Ilmor. I'm sticking with the MCX, which is tried and true. It doesn't seem worth taking the risk on a new engine in the first year.

JohnE
11-30-2010, 06:11 PM
I've ordered a 2011 X-25. It's a February build that needs to finalized in January. One of the things I have pondered the most is engine choice. Having both Indmar and Ilmor has made it even more confusing. I decided on the MCX. This recent press release by Mastercraft is no surprise, but did cause me to ask again, Indmar or Ilmor. I'm sticking with the MCX, which is tried and true. It doesn't seem worth taking the risk on a new engine in the first year.

I'd also worry about resale. Given the added performance of the Ilmor I be torn between your thoughts above and the possiblity that a few years from now that the Indmar compared to Ilmor will have the same negativity of the RTP vs. MCX.

bobx1
11-30-2010, 06:41 PM
.....the same negativity of the RTP vs. MCX.

I love my RTP (07 X1)!!! :confused:

I sure see your point/concern Eagle. Go with the tried and true discontinued (yes, I know it is really not discontinued, just not sold after next year) engine or run then chance of a resale hit as JohnE suggested? On the other hand, if Ilmor takes 2-3 years working out issues with their new engine (and yes, I know there should not be any issues due to years of testing, design, and experience), you could take a hit on that one.

Eagle
11-30-2010, 08:00 PM
Yep, that's the dilemma! Having been burned by buying a new car in its first model year, and heeding the advice of my dealer, I decided to stay with the tried and true, known quantity MCX. Only time will tell whether it's the right decision.

Ilmor for this application is unproven. In its first year, it may turn out better, it may turn out worse. With MCX, I know what I'm getting. The inconvenience of having to fix engine issues is a more important concern to me than resale risks.

Gravy
11-30-2010, 08:48 PM
either way Penske wins!

TX.X-30 fan
11-30-2010, 09:13 PM
either way Penske wins!



How is that............:confused:

JimN
11-30-2010, 09:15 PM
How is that............:confused:

Can I bust him on this? Can I? Can I? Huh, can I?

He didn't read that post about Penske not owning MC at the same time I didn't.

TX.X-30 fan
11-30-2010, 09:16 PM
Can I bust him on this? Can I? Can I? Huh, can I?

He didn't read that post about Penske not owning MC at the same time I didn't.



Absolutely:D

Hoosier Bob
11-30-2010, 09:19 PM
Great to see all of this Indy Car input I don't care what you guys say. Finally a MC that will pull to the left!;) Can't wait to see the other improvements like the Hans Device, Downforce and the cool way the new MC's will be able to refuel in around 5 seconds!

TX.X-30 fan
11-30-2010, 09:21 PM
Great to see all of this Indy Car input I don't care what you guys say. Finally a MC that will pull to the left!;) Can't wait to see the other improvements like the Hans Device, Downforce and the cool way the new MC's will be able to refuel in around 5 seconds!




I tend to pull to the left a bit it seems, what's up with that.........:confused:

east tx skier
11-30-2010, 11:44 PM
I love my RTP (07 X1)!!! :confused:

I sure see your point/concern Eagle. Go with the tried and true discontinued (yes, I know it is really not discontinued, just not sold after next year) engine or run then chance of a resale hit as JohnE suggested? On the other hand, if Ilmor takes 2-3 years working out issues with their new engine (and yes, I know there should not be any issues due to years of testing, design, and experience), you could take a hit on that one.

I have a discontinued GT-40 in my boat and it has no effect on resale. It is a respected, reliable, and sought after motor. So as long as parts are available, it's no problem (at least in this example).

Chicago190
12-01-2010, 12:32 AM
Does anyone know what the difference is between an Ilmor 5.7 and the MCX, other than some of the features on the engine and accessory placement? I'm not sure if it's fair to comapre a new car or engine to different distributors of marine GM 350s.

JohnE
12-01-2010, 08:35 AM
I have a discontinued GT-40 in my boT and it has no effect on resale. It is a respected, reliable, and sought after motor. So as long as parts are available, it's no problem (at least in this example).

But it's still PCM. Same brand as they put in today. Just like none of the discontinued Indmar motors are an issue in older MC's. I wouldn't have a problem buying one in a few years with an Indmar, but I just wonder if some people will.

Thrall
12-01-2010, 09:20 AM
But it's still PCM. Same brand as they put in today. Just like none of the discontinued Indmar motors are an issue in older MC's. I wouldn't have a problem buying one in a few years with an Indmar, but I just wonder if some people will.

I doubt it. Maybe those considering a used '10-'12 model down the road since they'll be comparable models with either the new or old engine mfr, but shouldn't make much of a diff I think. Now those RTP are sure gonna go in the tank!:rolleyes:

JohnE
12-01-2010, 09:26 AM
I doubt it. Maybe those considering a used '10-'12 model down the road since they'll be comparable models with either the new or old engine mfr, but shouldn't make much of a diff I think. Now those RTP are sure gonna go in the tank!:rolleyes:

Maybe won't be an issue, it was just a thought that came to mind.

TX.X-30 fan
12-01-2010, 09:36 AM
Maybe won't be an issue, it was just a thought that came to mind.




It will be an issue if the suffer like ford has with their diesels...

JimN
12-01-2010, 10:07 AM
But it's still PCM. Same brand as they put in today. Just like none of the discontinued Indmar motors are an issue in older MC's. I wouldn't have a problem buying one in a few years with an Indmar, but I just wonder if some people will.

Not to diminish Indmar's contribution but what Indmar does to these motors isn't really very drastic. On the non-Cat engines, the exhaust manifolds from another manufacturer could be used, but the motor itself is just GM, other than the intake manifolds and ECM program. The ECM is available from other sources and programming isn't much of an issue, either. What Indmar does is deliver a complete motor and transmission package that's ready to go into the boat, so the manufacturer doesn't need to do ALL of the pre-assembly work and development. If you were to tear an Ilmor engine down, it may have different cam/lifters/pistons/intake and exhaust manifolds but the performance isn't really that different from the Indmar models.

Lacking any real long-term user/service record, the Ilmor is just like something that gets peoples' attention because it's shiny and new.

duckguy
12-02-2010, 11:26 AM
http://www.tradeonlytoday.com/home/507524-mastercraft-signs-exclusive-powertrain-deal

bturner2
12-02-2010, 11:56 AM
Multi year agreement. If it's three and out the Ilmor's may end up being a less than desirable engine five years from now.

To me this is all lot of hype and marketing fluff until I see the actual product performance enhancements due to these new engines and the long term durability product. Has anyone actually lived with one for a season yet? If so was it really that much better than the same priced engine option from Indmar? And speaking of pricing are these engines priced the same as the comparable Indmars or is there a premium associated with the Ilmors?

MCwake
12-02-2010, 04:36 PM
Ilmore Engines are more expensive to the consumer. About a $1500-$3,000. Costomers won't mind to pay more...maybe.

How MC is going to have all 2012 boats with an engine that is still in "testing phase" is super sketchy to say the least. I wonder if all the hull designs have been tested with an Ilmore. Whats the data? Did everything work out okay? Any bugs or glitches? Just seems really risky to do this considering the state of the market, but you gotta bet big to win big. This is all about getting some $ back after Penske nearly brought MC to its knees. Hopefully MC Boats will improve with Ilmore.

TX.X-30 fan
12-02-2010, 05:07 PM
Ilmore Engines are more expensive to the consumer. About a $1500-$3,000. Costomers won't mind to pay more...maybe.

How MC is going to have all 2012 boats with an engine that is still in "testing phase" is super sketchy to say the least. I wonder if all the hull designs have been tested with an Ilmore. Whats the data? Did everything work out okay? Any bugs or glitches? Just seems really risky to do this considering the state of the market, but you gotta bet big to win big. This is all about getting some $ back after Penske nearly brought MC to its knees. Hopefully MC Boats will improve with Ilmore.





He had nothing to do with the company going bust, look at their outstanding debt before penske, it was massive and predicated on increasing boat sales forever..........

sand2snow22
12-02-2010, 05:18 PM
This is all about getting some $ back after Penske nearly brought MC to its knees.

Please enlighten me on how he did this?

bturner2
12-03-2010, 08:46 AM
"Ilmore Engines are more expensive to the consumer. About a $1500-$3,000. Customers won't mind to pay more...maybe."

OK, if this is true let me get this straight. We're replacing a solid engine package with very few problems (with the exception of maybe the fuel system which won't change with the Ilmors) with another manufacture with very similar HP (remember 5HP - 6HP does not make a big difference in a tow boat) and moving to these engines is going to drive the price up. Where's the up shot for the consumer? Are these engines that much better than the ones they're replacing?

It would also appear that there is no longer a RTP engine option so I'm assuming that the low cost power package is gone completely. If this is true what does that do to the base boat price? Are we looking at what would have been an upgrade to MCX then the Ilmor tax on top of that? If so then the price increase isn't just $1500, it's going to be more like $6000 - $7000.

For those that stated that they don't care about how the engine looks and rarely open the lid to see the engine, how is this a positive move? Unless the torque curve and HP has changed significantly you're not going to know the difference between the engine packages. How many of us could then truly say that they would benefit from any of the changes made to the new engine?

I realize I'm taking a jaded view of this announcement but I'm trying to understand how this move may benefit me on my next purchase or if this is going to be another unnecessary "upgrade" that pushes me closer to another brand. Being a tech guy I'd love to see a side by side comparison of the two solutions instead of a press release with a marketing pitch on the heritage of the builder. I get this same pitch all day at work from vendors trying to sell me their gear.

TT197
12-03-2010, 12:10 PM
My 2011 Tournament boat has a Ilmor 6.0L and it is the same price as the 6.0L Indmar.
IMHO after testing and driving these engines for 3 days all day WFO. The Ilmor guys are not scared. They build INDY engines that turn 10,000+ rpm out of the box. If you have no experience with engines how can you offer a opinion on HP Performance or Price:rolleyes:

TT197
12-03-2010, 12:12 PM
If it was going to BLOW UP it was going to happen to us.

vision
12-03-2010, 12:43 PM
I believe the RTP was discontinued as it no longer met emissions standards in several states.

TX.X-30 fan
12-03-2010, 12:51 PM
Did you really take the new car hickey that many times??? WOW

duckguy
12-03-2010, 02:39 PM
TT197 how did you like it?

TT197
12-03-2010, 03:07 PM
That engine is awesome 6.0L that is. And I have had ever Indmar endine since 351 to current:D

MCwake
12-03-2010, 04:13 PM
Please enlighten me on how he did this?

Penske purchased MC.

Penske lost a lot of $ from his MasterCraft investment.

Penske is close with Wyzata Investment partners being they are partnered with Penske Trucking.

Wyzata purchased MC

Now you take Penske and Wyzata. Penske and Ilmore have worked closely for years together. Add all the pieces of the puzzle together and it is what it is.

http://www.boating-industry.com/output.cfm?id=2207269

http://www.boats.com/blog/2010/12/mastercraft-switches-to-ilmor-power/

Ilmore engines/MC will all work out fine in the end. I wish MC and Ilmore the best!

sand2snow22
12-03-2010, 04:21 PM
Penske purchased MC.

Penske lost a lot of $ from his MasterCraft investment.

Penske is close with Wyzata Investment partners being they are partnered with Penske Trucking.

Wyzata purchased MC

Now you take Penske and Wyzata. Penske and Ilmore have worked closely for years together. Add all the pieces of the puzzle together and it is what it is.

http://www.boating-industry.com/output.cfm?id=2207269

http://www.boats.com/blog/2010/12/mastercraft-switches-to-ilmor-power/

Ilmore engines/MC will all work out fine in the end. I wish MC and Ilmore the best!

I'm really trying not to be argumentative, but you're not answering the question. That's great, I can see the transaction history, just wonder how you think Penske, Wyzata, etc. brought MC to it's knees??

MCwake
12-03-2010, 04:39 PM
I see. My intent of my original post was concern with a new product and Penske trying to recoup some invested $ he lost during his ownership of MC by introducing Ilmore to Wyzata/MC. Penske "bringing MC to its knees" was my poor use of words. My bad. MC had a lot of debit beofe Penske came in. The state of the economy and over enthusiastic production numbers was what brought MC and just about every other business in US to its knees. Things are getting better. I hope this new partnership helps out everyone!

sand2snow22
12-03-2010, 05:01 PM
I am following now. You could very well be right about this........

My intent of my original post was concern with a new product and Penske trying to recoup some invested $ he lost during his ownership of MC by introducing Ilmore to Wyzata/MC.

Forrest-X45
12-03-2010, 09:02 PM
I can see why MC made the decision but I don't know if I like it from a customer perspective. But change can be a good thing.
I sure hope Ilmore has plans in 2012 for a bigger engine than the 6.2L for the X-45 and X-55. Or atleast supercharge it like the Indmar LSA. The 6.2 will work for most people in the 45 but it sure won't work for those looking for more power and in the 55.

This move by MC sure has put a twist in my future upgrade plans........

JohnE
12-04-2010, 01:18 AM
I see. My intent of my original post was concern with a new product and Penske trying to recoup some invested $ he lost during his ownership of MC by introducing Ilmore to Wyzata/MC. Penske "bringing MC to its knees" was my poor use of words. My bad. MC had a lot of debit beofe Penske came in. The state of the economy and over enthusiastic production numbers was what brought MC and just about every other business in US to its knees. Things are getting better. I hope this new partnership helps out everyone!

This is a decent analysis, IMO.

TX.X-30 fan
12-04-2010, 09:45 AM
Businesses that were not highly leveraged have faired much better than companies with ridiculous debt loads like MC.

Thrall
12-04-2010, 10:18 AM
I can't believe....there's more arguing and trashtalking about Ilmors than Powerstrokes!

Chicago190
12-04-2010, 10:27 AM
I can't believe....there's more arguing and trashtalking about Ilmors than Powerstrokes!

It's particularly impressive because only 1 person by my count (TT197) has even driven a boat with an Ilmor engine.

Eagle
12-04-2010, 08:39 PM
ShawnB, did any of the boats you test drove at the factory have Ilmor engines? I see you ordered your X-25 with one.