Imatation X Boat "Bayliner" [Archive]

RickDV

07-11-2005, 01:14 PM

I must have seen 10 boats on the water this weekend that had wakeboard towers on them. All I/O's.

All of them were pulling the wakeboarder Waaaayy fast......which, I think is evidence of the problems I/O's have trying to keep speed between 18 - 20 MPH.

Before I bought my MC last year I used my 17' ChrisChraft with a 185hp Mercruiser sterndrive. I was able to solve the 18-20mph problem by going to an 18 pitch 4-blade prop. The hole-shot was pretty good and I was able to hold a steady 18mph with a wake boarder in tow.

One thing to say in defense of I/O's: An easy flip of the trim-tilt switch lets me fine-tune the wake for a boarder. It's not quite so easy with fat sacks.

Having said that, I have no interest in going back from my MC to an I/O!

Cheers!

BriEOD

07-11-2005, 01:17 PM

Dude,

Don't be a hater....

he just needs a mullet (or a skullet) and a hot stripper on his arm and he's set

Yeah and tow it with a 1989 Black Iroc Camaro with T-tops, right? :cool: :purplaugh

Farmer Ted

07-11-2005, 01:25 PM

Yeah and tow it with a 1989 Black Iroc Camaro with T-tops, right? :cool: :purplaugh

as if there were anything else?

Pacer?

Gremlin....

smsunman1

07-11-2005, 01:34 PM

I don't know , you can put fishing rods all over that thing

smsunman1

07-11-2005, 01:36 PM

he thought it was a roll bar :) :D 8p :woohoo:

Double Overhead

07-11-2005, 02:02 PM

After trying to convince my father to buy a nice used inboard he went out and bought a 20 foot Reinell I/O and put a tower on it. He spent $25K on this thing. Ive tried to wakeboard behind it several times and its not even worth it. The stupid thing wont stay planed out and the wake is terrible. Every time I see that boat I get pissed off because for 25K he could have bought a really nice used Mastercraft. Most people who havent been around boats just dont get the I/O argument.

JDK

07-11-2005, 02:11 PM

D.O.
IO's have some big advantages over d drives or v drives.....especially for beginner boaters and people who don't do much towing. Don't be so hard on your old man.

MYMC

07-11-2005, 02:17 PM

IO's have some big advantages over d drives or v drives.....especially for beginner boaters and people who don't do much towing.
What are they?

In case anybody wondered this is the exact reason that MasterCraft changed the graphics on all the X-Boats this year...they are trying to distance themselves from the crowd of copies.

AirJunky

07-11-2005, 02:23 PM

Um, how about their easier to drive? Especially in reverse or rough water.
I had a SeaRay for a few years & it was nice to learn how to learn the ins & outs of driving a power boat without the $50k price tag. After I had it down, I bought a used MC & would definitely not go back. Although I might consider a 22' or 24' Cobalt/Four Winns/Crownline type I/O some day, depending on the lake I'm living on. The Prostar just doesn't handle the rough water.
Also, the pretentious attitude some inboard owners have about the I/Os is a bit much to take some times.

MYMC

07-11-2005, 02:33 PM

I disagree that an I/O is easier to drive...a day at a public boat ramp is more than enough proof of that.

Rough water? Easier to drive or ride better?

AirJunky

07-11-2005, 02:53 PM

I disagree that an I/O is easier to drive...a day at a public boat ramp is more than enough proof of that.
Hmmmm, possibly because there are far more I/Os than inboards out there. And because MOST inboard owners have been driving a boat of some kind for a while.

Rough water? Easier to drive or ride better?
Easier to drive & ride better. Several years ago Orca J pod was in Dyes Inlet near Silverdale, about a 30 min. boat ride from West Seattle. My buddy & I dropped our boats in the water & took a bunch of friends over to check out the whales. He had a 1996 21' Maristar & I had an '89 17' SeaRay. Not only was I able to navigate the rough Puget Sound waters faster, but the boat survived. The Maristar took a beating, and lost the pass thru windshield as a result. No way in he11 would I attempt that trip in my 205.
I realize that story isn't the norm for these boats. But I have more too....... ever been to the Columbia Gorge? Lake Powell? Tahoe? Gorgeous lakes & they get rough occasionally.

MYMC

07-11-2005, 03:52 PM

I have been on Powell and Tahoe, I am originally from the West Coast.

Selling these I see many first time boat owners and after some initial instruction I have yet to see one drive like I witness at the ramp. Most never understand that when steering the rear the front is headed the opposite direction, we teach it to use as an advantage.
I am an inboard/V-drive guy. Once a buyer/end user is educated there should be no issue. They safety factor lies with the inboard as well (IMHO).

How did the type of drive system cause the walk thru windsheild to break?

AirJunky

07-11-2005, 03:59 PM

How did the type of drive system cause the walk thru windsheild to break?
It wasn't the drive system, but the hull smashing down as he was navigating the boat thru the waves. The hull flexed & the windshield spread, allowing the walk thru section to drop. The window itself broke, I assume because of the frame flexing.
If all MC owners only used private ski lakes, there wouldn't be an issue. But a few of us like to do other things with them. In that case, the pictures (http://airjunky.com/whale/) of the experience with the whales made it well worth the trip.

mcprostar197

07-11-2005, 04:26 PM

that thing is pretty damn rediculous

bigmac

07-11-2005, 05:48 PM

Um, how about their easier to drive? Especially in reverse

I agree completely. I've owned several different I/O's over the last 25 years, but this Maristar 230 is the first inboard I've owned, or had to dock repeatedly, or had to get into my shore station. I/O's are a piece of cake by comparison. I never gave those basic maneuvers a thought until I found out how differently an inboard handles. So far, almost every jaunt into my boat lift has been an event.

shepherd

07-11-2005, 06:02 PM

I/O's are definitely easier to drive. Anyone try backing up an inboard and turn left? Almost impossible, unless I've been doing something wrong for the last 10+ years.

As for rough water, my PS190 beats the he!! out of us when the waves get over 6" or so. A couple times on our lake, I got swamped by the wake from a wakeboard boat -- the wave just came over the bow, up and over the windshield, and drowned the front seat occupants. I'm sure that wouldn't have happened on the 18' Stingray I/O I owned many years go. (but then, in that boat I couldn't just reach over the edge from the driver's seat to test the water temperature ;) ).

But then, my PS 190 is a ski machine, good for nothing else. When it's too rough to ski, I leave it on the trailer/in the boathouse.

stevo137

07-11-2005, 06:10 PM

I agree completely. I've owned several different I/O's over the last 25 years, but this Maristar 230 is the first inboard I've owned, or had to dock repeatedly, or had to get into my shore station. I/O's are a piece of cake by comparison. I never gave those basic maneuvers a thought until I found out how differently an inboard handles. So far, almost every jaunt into my boat lift has been an event.
Some days are more difficult than others depending on how rough the lake is. I have no problem driving on my lift as long as my speed and angle are correct. I just approach the lift at a 45 degree angle from the left side. Forward to neutral to control speed and then when the point is almost to the lift, hit reverse and then neutral. Straightens up and glides right in.
As far as the I/O-Inboard goes, everyone has different interests and needs. I have enjoyed riding in a few very nice I/O's. I enjoy looking at all different kinds of boats. You should see the beautiful I/O's all along the Chicago lakefront. It's a different type of boating, thats all.
For watersports it's obvious that nothing beats an inboard.
Big, once you get comfortable with how it handles, it's actually fun parking it in tight spaces or docking. ;)
Just thought that I would also add that I have never driven a Maristar. They may be more difficult than my Prostar.

rodltg2

07-11-2005, 06:19 PM

dont get me wrong , i agree bayliners suck but ... a friend of mine bought an 04 cheapy around the same time i bought my 04 mc. mc trips to the shop 5 times. bayliner 0.

bigmac

07-11-2005, 06:25 PM

Some days are more difficult than others depending on how rough the lake is. I have no problem driving on my lift as long as my speed and angle are correct. I just approach the lift at a 45 degree angle from the left side. Forward to neutral to control speed and then when the point is almost to the lift, hit reverse and then neutral. Straightens up and glides right in.

Heh...I've got enough time in the boat to have discovered that that's the way it has to be done.

I've envisioned that exact maneuver in my mind a hundred times. So far, consistent execution has eluded me.

But I agree, this Mastercraft has the feel of being a serious boat. I can't imagine going back.

stevo137

07-11-2005, 06:28 PM

Heh...I've got enough time in the boat to have discovered that that's the way it has to be done.

I've envisioned that exact maneuver in my mind a hundred times. So far, consistent execution has eluded me.
Like I said, perhaps the Maristar is more difficult than the Prostar.
How long have you had the Maristar?

JDK

07-11-2005, 06:31 PM

What are they?

- Slow speed handling
- Lower travel speed when idling
- You can actually tell which way the rear end of the boat is going to go when you put an IO into reverse
- you can trim the boat for load and water conditions
- you can beach the boat in shallow water without fear of damage
- if you ding a prop, you can change it in 5 minutes, in the water, without special tools
- IMO, props are less suceptable (sp.) to damage because they can 'kick up'
- I don't think you will pay $50k for ANY IO MADE that won't have 10 mph more top speed than any MC.
- That boat launch statement above is grasping for straws imo.
- IMO the safety factor of inboards over IO's and OB's is nothing but hype.

I completely agree with Airjunky about the pretentious attitude of many inboard owners too. Geeeze, some of you guys need to lighten up. So what if someone puts a tower on a IO/fishing boat or whatever....... it's still for fun. I always say, my worst day boating still beats my best day working no matter if I'm skiing behind my dd or paddling a canoe.

stevo137

07-11-2005, 06:46 PM

Good points JDK.
Like I said, everyone has different interests.
I can tell you this much, a couple of weeks ago, I skied behind a very nice Crownline and the hole shot was terrible as was the wake.
On the other hand, a guy that I know has a Crownline with the 496 package that hauls a** and handles the chop beautifully. We cruised @ 72 mph on a very rough day and it was impressive. He has a difficult time pulling anything at slow speeds because he doesn't plane off and can't even see over the windshield.
Again, the boat is great for speeding around or just cruising.
Has anyone mentioned that direct drives/v-drives far outlast I/O's when it comes down to hours?
Either way, I agree that all boaters regardless of what they own, as long as they practice safety should RESPECT EACH OTHER and not knock what each other has.

Utahfoiler

07-11-2005, 09:55 PM

Either way, I agree that all boaters regardless of what they own, as long as they practice safety should RESPECT EACH OTHER and not knock what each other has.

But where is the fun in that.

If I see a bayliner on the lake, I get as far away as possible. Usually the drivers in a bayliner are new and don't have a clue to what they are doing.

bigmac

07-11-2005, 10:04 PM

Like I said, perhaps the Maristar is more difficult than the Prostar.
How long have you had the Maristar?Less than a week... :rolleyes:

I'm a total inboard newbie. I am getting better at this low speed handling stuff, but it's definitely harder than an I/O.

Maristar210

07-11-2005, 10:12 PM

Speaking of stupid ideas check this out. Brought to you courtesy of www.monstertowers.com

Oooh boy. nothing good can come from this :eek:

Steve

stevo137

07-11-2005, 10:12 PM

Less than a week... :rolleyes:

I'm a total inboard newbie. I am getting better at this low speed handling stuff, but it's definitely harder than an I/O.
My friend, you are still on your honeymoon! By the end of this season, you won't believe how confident you will be with her. ;)

LakePirate

07-11-2005, 10:13 PM

Alright, I grew up driving I/Os and the 1977 Galaxy that we had had all the hole shot that you could ever want. *Note* I almost had my arms ripped out of the socket weekend before last behind a 197 *

I don't remember who said it before but if you are into watersports then a Direct Drive or V-Drive is the way to go. However, if you plan on just cruising around the lake or ocean then you can't beat the deep V hull found on I/Os.

IMO the real discussion here is the hull design. I/Os are attached to deep Vs while DDs are hooked up to boats that are designed to produce a flat wake.

Just another note, most of your fly bridge sport fishing boats are condidered to be inboards and they handle the chop just fine.

stevo137

07-11-2005, 10:16 PM

Oooh boy. nothing good can come from this :eek:

Steve
Well, at least they had a nice swimsuit pic... :D

MYMC

07-12-2005, 09:32 AM

IMO the real discussion here is the hull design. I/Os are attached to deep Vs while DDs are hooked up to boats that are designed to produce a flat wake.
That was what I was trying to get at...the type of drive system is not the issue. It the hull design almost exclusivly that dictates ride. A 75' Viking is considered an inboard. IMHO the inboard wins in handling as well, especially with twins. That same 75' Viking can turn within its own length something no I/O can do.

More to the point is that whatever you are more comfortable with is probably "best" since there is no real right or wrong here...just different.

bigmac

07-12-2005, 09:42 AM

That was what I was trying to get at...the type of drive system is not the issue. It the hull design almost exclusivly that dictates ride. A 75' Viking is considered an inboard. IMHO the inboard wins in handling as well, especially with twins. That same 75' Viking can turn within its own length something no I/O can do.

More to the point is that whatever you are more comfortable with is probably "best" since there is no real right or wrong here...just different.

I think that the wake/hull issue is different than the handling issue. The original contention was that inboards are harder to handle at low speed than I/O's. I agree with that. OTOH, for the relatively low-level chop that our lake is capable of, my 23 foot Maristar does just as well, maybe better, than the 23 foot Century I/O that it replaced.

Granite_33

07-12-2005, 10:13 AM

I don't know , you can put fishing rods all over that thing

Note to all Tower makers.........you still have work to do....
Wakeboard holder............check
Ski holder.......................check
Speaker / Light Mounts.....check
Rod holder...............
115V outlet for Mullet trimming device............
Funnel and hose holder for beer funnelling...........

LakePirate

07-12-2005, 10:14 AM

And what is so wrong with a beer funnel?

Granite_33

07-12-2005, 10:34 AM

And what is so wrong with a beer funnel?

In my book........Not A Thing..... :D

Diesel

07-12-2005, 01:09 PM

- Slow speed handling
- Lower travel speed when idling
Is this really a negative?? I don't like putting around in the No-wake zone any longer than I have too.
- You can actually tell which way the rear end of the boat is going to go when you put an IO into reverse
BS, most IO drivers have no idea which direction the rear of the boat is going to go becasue the have no idea which way the steering wheel it turned. At least with an inboard you KNOW every time you put it in revers which way the rear is going to go.
- you can trim the boat for load and water conditions
Another way of compensating for poor hull design or other short comings.
- you can beach the boat in shallow water without fear of damage
I think similar risks are present with both designs.
- if you ding a prop, you can change it in 5 minutes, in the water, without special tools
I'll give you this one.
- IMO, props are less suceptable (sp.) to damage because they can 'kick up'
If a prop hits something while rotating it is going to suffer the same damage. Now the I/O does have a rubber hub that will help absorb the impact, which is a plus. Then again Nibral will deform much easier than SS so the point is probably mute.
- I don't think you will pay $50k for ANY IO MADE that won't have 10 mph more top speed than any MC.
Who cares about speed..............
- That boat launch statement above is grasping for straws imo.
From what I have seen all inboards are much easier to launch and load. I have never seen an inboard on the trailer crooked. It is possible but really hard to do. Plus when you launch it is just a matter of turning the key. With an I/O there are the straps, transom saver, prop lock, and don't forget to trim it down before you start it!! I cannot tell you how many times I have seen people start up their I/Os before the lower unit is in the water :D
- IMO the safety factor of inboards over IO's and OB's is nothing but hype.
Now you are totaly reaching. This point is not even worth arguing........

I completely agree with Airjunky about the pretentious attitude of many inboard owners too. Geeeze, some of you guys need to lighten up. So what if someone puts a tower on a IO/fishing boat or whatever....... it's still for fun. I always say, my worst day boating still beats my best day working no matter if I'm skiing behind my dd or paddling a canoe.

IMHO of course :)

Jim

07-12-2005, 10:27 PM

This whole Bayliner/ X whatever thing is just WRONG. What a shame!

JDK

07-13-2005, 01:43 AM

Originally Posted by JDK
- Slow speed handling
- Lower travel speed when idling
Is this really a negative?? A big one in my opinion I don't like putting around in the No-wake zone any longer than I have too.
- You can actually tell which way the rear end of the boat is going to go when you put an IO into reverse
BS, most IO drivers have no idea which direction the rear of the boat is going to go becasue the have no idea which way the steering wheel it turned.- MOST IO drivers have NO IDEA???...you are making a pretty broad statement there, and most of the people with IO's that I know certainly do not fit your observation. At least with an inboard you KNOW every time you put it in revers which way the rear is going to go.- even if it is into a dock
- you can trim the boat for load and water conditions
Another way of compensating for poor hull design or other short comings.- many would say that 42 mph on a 19 ft. boat with 300+ hp is a ridiculous hull design
- you can beach the boat in shallow water without fear of damage
I think similar risks are present with both designs.-I don't see how you figure this when an IO can get its gearcase completely out of the water, and no matter what I do, my PS needs 22" of water to clear the bottom....... then what happens if you are anchored or docked in shallow water and the wind blows in some big rollers?
- if you ding a prop, you can change it in 5 minutes, in the water, without special tools
I'll give you this one.
- IMO, props are less suceptable (sp.) to damage because they can 'kick up'
If a prop hits something while rotating it is going to suffer the same damage. Now the I/O does have a rubber hub that will help absorb the impact, which is a plus. Then again Nibral will deform much easier than SS so the point is probably mute.-if an IO or OB kicks up, there's a chance the prop won't hit ANYTHING (not always though) + the rubber hub. If you hit pretty much anything with a DD, there's going to be damage. I'm only saying that you've got a better chance of driving back to the dock after an underwater hit with an IO.
- I don't think you will pay $50k for ANY IO MADE that won't have 10 mph more top speed than any MC.
Who cares about speed..............-what was that about hull design again? ;)
- That boat launch statement above is grasping for straws imo.
From what I have seen all inboards are much easier to launch and load. I have never seen an inboard on the trailer crooked . -I've never seen an IO on a trailer crooked, as long as the trailer has guides, just like 99% of inboard trailers do. It is possible but really hard to do.- my trailer is part of the 1% I mentioned above (without guide bunks) and it is VERY easy to pull out of the water with the boat crooked Plus when you launch it is just a matter of turning the key. With an I/O there are the straps, transom saver, prop lock, and don't forget to trim it down before you start it!! I cannot tell you how many times I have seen people start up their I/Os before the lower unit is in the water -not a big deal in my books. btw, you don't use straps on the back of your boat when trailering?
- IMO the safety factor of inboards over IO's and OB's is nothing but hype.
Now you are totaly reaching. This point is not even worth arguing........-really?, because you saw this in a brochure. ;)

- Again, it's all my opinion, and I could be wrong..... but I don't think so :D

AirJunky

07-13-2005, 02:55 AM

[QUOTE=Diesel]- Slow speed handling
- Lower travel speed when idling
Is this really a negative?? I don't like putting around in the No-wake zone any longer than I have too.
I guess you only ski in your boat.... no booze cruizin? Hmmmm, come visit the yacht show in Kirkland, WA., or the houseboats in Bayview, ID. or Lake Union sometime.
- You can actually tell which way the rear end of the boat is going to go when you put an IO into reverse
BS, most IO drivers have no idea which direction the rear of the boat is going to go becasue the have no idea which way the steering wheel it turned. At least with an inboard you KNOW every time you put it in revers which way the rear is going to go.
I drive a lot of boats. Prostars, Maristars, Nautiques, B52s, Tiges, & Malibus, DDs & VDs & every one of them drives way different. I have to stop & think if I'm driving a boats with a left or right turning screw. And the big V-drives don't swing right much at all.
- you can trim the boat for load and water conditions
Another way of compensating for poor hull design or other short comings.
- you can beach the boat in shallow water without fear of damage
I think similar risks are present with both designs.
I never bent a skeg on my old SeaRay. Then again it didn't drive like it was on rails either.
- if you ding a prop, you can change it in 5 minutes, in the water, without special tools
I'll give you this one.
- IMO, props are less suceptable (sp.) to damage because they can 'kick up'
If a prop hits something while rotating it is going to suffer the same damage. Now the I/O does have a rubber hub that will help absorb the impact, which is a plus. Then again Nibral will deform much easier than SS so the point is probably mute.
- I don't think you will pay $50k for ANY IO MADE that won't have 10 mph more top speed than any MC.
Who cares about speed..............
If I had a 24' Cobalt with a tower on Lake Coeur d'Alene, I could drive the boat up the Spokane River, thru the chop by the resort, 10 miles thru the chop to any number of small bays that would have glassssssssssssss :headbang:
- That boat launch statement above is grasping for straws imo.
From what I have seen all inboards are much easier to launch and load. I have never seen an inboard on the trailer crooked.
Pretentious BS..... Wish I had a camera..... 2 nights ago. Nice Sanger, sitting all cockeyed on the trailer till he hit a good sized pothole & the thing jumped about 2" or 3"...... daylight..... and now it's straight.
It is possible but really hard to do. Plus when you launch it is just a matter of turning the key. With an I/O there are the straps, transom saver, prop lock, and don't forget to trim it down before you start it!! I cannot tell you how many times I have seen people start up their I/Os before the lower unit is in the water

djhuff

07-13-2005, 08:23 AM

Guys guys guys, you are comparing two DIFFERENT types of boats with DIFFERENT uses. Until you get into the big Maristar hulls, the boats are built for one purpose. Personally, I would put my X30 (230 VRS hull) up against any 22-23 foot I/O and the only advantage I can see is top end (I can drive mine just fine), which you can talk til you're blue in the face about, but I still won't care.

Big negative for I/Os though - parisitic power loss... all of my 350 horses make it to the prop (which also means all the gas I burn goes to moving my rear around the lake).

If I ever own another I/O, it will be 30+ foot cabin cruiser, more than likely twin engine, but that will be a while.

3event

07-13-2005, 09:49 AM

Back in 2002 I became a convert, trading in a 18'er with a Merc175EFI that did 68mph for a PS197. I somewhat miss flying across the water at high speed and making the boat stand on end. Nothing feels quite like 60+ over the water on a small craft. Lighter boat, easier to beach, trailer, relocate in the yard etc. But the MC was the best move ever, for sure! Got back into barefooting, cranked up the slaloming big time, nothing better! Instant popularity with acquaintances, neighbors, and distant relatives, gotta laugh.

I/O's and outboards have their place for sure. When I ski with friends on those boats we have fun exploiting their shortcomings / making the most of what they've got. Maybe in retirement a MC for the sports and a big fast IO for cruising on busy weekends...nothing wrong with that.....lots of cooler space on those big boats.

Diesel

07-13-2005, 09:55 AM

Hey look, if the Bayliner X is your thing go for it. I did not mean to hurt anyone's feelings.

It is obvious from this discussion the people who bag on DDs do not know how to drive them. It does take planning and thought to maneuver a DD at idle. But once you understand how the boat is going to react a DD is way more maneuverable at slow speeds than an I/O. This is a fact that cannot be disputed. Also, I do not understand why people say they cannot back up straight or to the left :confused:. I could back both my MCs in any direction I choose, it just required skillful use of the rudder and a little forward bump now and then.

On the safety issue, try jumping straight off the swim deck of an I/O and see what happens (much like my 2 year old daughter likes to do regularly off my MC). What about when you are climbing back into an I/O?? Be careful you might cut your foot on the prop or the lower unit. What happens when somebody accidentally starts the boat and there are swimmers in the water. With a DD these are non-issues and in my eyes this makes the DD much safer. I don't buy into marketing hype either but in this case they are spot on and I cannot believe anyone would attempt to argue otherwise. I would like to hear specifically your thoughts on why you believe the I/O is safer or even as safe as the DD....................

One more thing on safety: Due to the hull design the DD plows through the water more than it planes. As a result speed and ride suffers but the resultant ride is much safer for the passengers. Since so much of an I/O rides out of the water when on plane it is much less stable at speeds and pitches quite violently during turns at all speeds. Occupants in the bow area of an I/O are much more likely to be tossed overboard. Even in a full throttle turn in a DD the boat squats down and sticks to the water. I would like to see this Bayliner X (or any I/O) attempt a bat turn................

Furthermore I/Os require a minimum level of speed to be on plane. Any level of speed below this threshold and the bow is pointing to the sky. The driver has no visibility, the bow passengers are in the stars, and everything not tied down is sliding into the passengers in the back seat. Again a no issue in a DD. I can set my boat a what ever speed I want and still be able to see what is going on around me and the passengers remain in a comfortable, safe position the entire time.

Really it is like comparing a Porsche to a Yukon. Made for two different purposes. Furthermore, with the advent of V-Drives it is more like comparing a Cayenne to a Yukon. And in both cases I know what I would rather be driving. :)

MYMC

07-13-2005, 10:00 AM

obvious from this discussion the people who bag on DDs do not know how to drive them
Careful, careful you may be called Pretentious soon :rolleyes:

6ballsisall

07-13-2005, 10:14 AM

Guys, easy! It's different strokes for different folks! Each style of boat has it's place, if it didn't manufacturers wouldn't spend the time and resources to build them. Respect the differences and be thankful that here in the good ole' USA we have the freedom to make choices like this for us and our families :friday:

pilot02

07-13-2005, 10:27 AM

[QUOTE=LakePirate]Alright, I grew up driving I/Os and the 1977 Galaxy that we had had all the hole shot that you could ever want. QUOTE]

Lake Pirate, you're scaring me.... I grew up behind a 79 Galaxy which I sold to buy the Tristar 190.

If I still lived in South Louisiana, I would like to have both because they both have their place. Having spent most of my younger years 5 mins from the boat launch on Bayou Lacombe which gave access to long stretches of freshwater skiing as well as access to Lake Pontchartrain which is brackish, I would never take my Tristar out into Lake Pontchartrain to catch some Reds. In that scenario, the I/O Galaxy was unbeatable. No doubt in my mind, DD and I/O each have their place.

maristarman

07-13-2005, 11:32 AM

It is obvious from this discussion the people who bag on DDs do not know how to drive them. It does take planning and thought to maneuver a DD at idle. But once you understand how the boat is going to react a DD is way more maneuverable at slow speeds than an I/O. This is a fact that cannot be disputed. Also, I do not understand why people say they cannot back up straight or to the left :confused:. I could back both my MCs in any direction I choose, it just required skillful use of the rudder and a little forward bump now and then. :)

Dude, I believe you are missing the issue. The point made was that it is easier (incredibly easier, actually) to manuever an I/O in tight quarters/low idle than a DD. All the "planning" you want to do when manuevering in tight quarters doesn't do you a bit of good when some idiot goes plowing through the no wake zone kicking up a huge wake, swings your boat around, and you can't reverse it in the direction you need to. The I/O is more manueverable in reverse.

I wouldn't trade my mastercraft for any other boat.

WARNING This next statement isn't for the faint of heart.

Mastercrafts aren't perfect. :eek:

They're real close though.

This thread reminds of the old Patriotism versus Nationalism debate.

I live in the greatest country on this planet, I'm an honorably discharged veteran, and I wouldn't want to live anywhere else in the world. But this country isn't perfect.

I've owned outboards, I/O's and now my Mastercraft :dance:.

I wouldn't trade it for any other boat. But its not perfect.

Why can't we all just get along, people?

Diesel

07-13-2005, 12:36 PM

Dude, I believe you are missing the issue. The point made was that it is easier (incredibly easier, actually) to manuever an I/O in tight quarters/low idle than a DD. All the "planning" you want to do when manuevering in tight quarters doesn't do you a bit of good when some idiot goes plowing through the no wake zone kicking up a huge wake, swings your boat around, and you can't reverse it in the direction you need to. The I/O is more manueverable in reverse.

Dude, it is not easier and that is the exact point I was refuting. There is not one single situation you could put me into in a no wake zone that I would not prefer the DD (any brand for that matter) over the I/O. The I/O might be steered more easily (or more easily for the untrained, i.e. new boat owners) in reverse but that does not make it more maneuverable. If you are being thrown into the dock by a roller you need to practice a bit more or pay more attention to your surroundings. Also, did you miss the point that I can and do quite frequently steer my boat any direction in reverse.

It is quite obvious others see things differently than I do. When I first started driving DDs I also thought they drove like crap in the no wake zones and at idle. I looked like an idiot trying to put it in the stall, trailer, or the gas dock. I hated it the first couple of years especially since I considered myself, at the time, a seasoned boater. With a few pointers from seasoned DD owners and a lot of practice/experience I found the DD was much more predictable and manuverable than any other boat I had driven (except a twin screw DD). I truly believe the complainers cannot or do not fully understand how to drive a DD boat. If you could drive it to its full potential you would feel the same way I do..............

Granite_33

07-13-2005, 12:38 PM

Nothing is perfect. Each design has its own +'s and -'s.

Outboards and I/O's can be very dangerous with the prop hanging off the back end of the boat............This point was proven out in the wonderful film.....I Spit On Your Grave :D

My take.
I/O's are being pimped out to appeal to a broader audience. (apparently blatantly with the Baywhiner X bote) Marketing 101. MC X-boats are a huge success in the market. Wakeboarding is an absolutely booming sport.....and you have to address a sport with that kind of growth if you are an I/O maker. You cannot concede the potential a growing market has to other boat makers, especially in a slow growth industry like boats.
MC Success breeds copies. I/O's are still run - a - bouts, though. Attuned more for leisurely running about than watersports. It kills me to see I/O's with towers on them, when I know that at 18 - 20MPH, an I/O has a hell of a time holding speed on plane with a wakeboarder pulling behind it.

Each boat is designed with a purpose in mind. (although with some runabout makers, said purpose might be to "dwell in perpetual mediocrity")
DD boats are designed for watersports. I/O's for most things other than watersports.

Mastercraft addressed the I/O market with the Maristar Line.
It is no surprise to me to see runabouts with towers on them.
Crossover marketing. Each manufacturer did something successful that the other manufacturer wants to capitalize on.

Its a Dog eat dog world....even in the world of boats. You gotta make your sales somehow.

maristarman

07-13-2005, 12:54 PM

When I first started driving DDs I also thought they drove like crap in the no wake zones and at idle. I looked like an idiot trying to put it in the stall, trailer, or the gas dock. I hated it the first couple of years especially since I considered myself, at the time, a seasoned boater. With a few pointers from seasoned DD owners and a lot of practice/experience I found the DD was much more predictable and manuverable than any other boat I had driven (except a twin screw DD). I truly believe the complainers cannot or do not fully understand how to drive a DD boat. If you could drive it to its full potential you would feel the same way I do..............

Your own words convict you. If it was easier to maneuver, as a seasoned boater, you would not have looked like "an idiot", and would not need "a lot" of practice (because you were already a seasoned boater).

No offense intended, but you should read your own words, and think about it a little.

I've never had a problem putting it in the stall, on a trailer, or pulling up to a dock, but I have gotten screwed when someone went tearing through a no wake zone at shasta (with a houseboat no less) and their huge A** wake nailed me into the dock.

All of your sage wisdom and experience means nothing in an emergency situation when the boat inherently only backs up in one direction. It takes a while to get a DD moving in reverse in the opposite direction.

When I took the boat for the test drive when we bought it the salesman was surprised that I could get it to go in reverse in both directions. But it takes some time. It's not automatic.

And in an emergency situation that can screw you.

Peace out.

JDK

07-13-2005, 12:58 PM

I truly believe the complainers cannot or do not fully understand how to drive a DD boat. If you could drive it to its full potential you would feel the same way I do..............

Diesel.... nobody's complaining! This has been a debate about what handles better at slow speed and in reverse (and quite civil too).
Seems to me that you are outnumbered pretty badly on this point, and saying that 'people can't drive them' when you're getting hammered by lots of people who've owned both is kinda weak.

Diesel

07-13-2005, 01:50 PM

Diesel.... nobody's complaining! This has been a debate about what handles better at slow speed and in reverse (and quite civil too).
Seems to me that you are outnumbered pretty badly on this point, and saying that 'people can't drive them' when you're getting hammered by lots of people who've owned both is kinda weak.

I also feel this has been quite civil and you guys have all raised some interesting points however incorrect they might be :D.

But............

most 10 year olds can drive DDs, but it takes practice and years of experience in different situations to be able to manuver a direct drive. If I am out numbered it just proves there are more people that do not understand how to drive a DD than there are that do. And from what I have seen on my local lake................it's quite true.

bigmac

07-13-2005, 01:55 PM

I also feel this has been quite civil and you guys have all raised some interesting points however incorrect they might be :D.

But............

most 10 year olds can drive DDs, but it takes practice and years of experience in different situations to be able to manuver a direct drive. If I am out numbered it just proves there are more people that do not understand how to drive a DD than there are that do. And from what I have seen on my local lake................it's quite true.Speaking for the inboard newbies, I don't doubt that once one gets the hang of it, inboards are quite maneuverable at idle and low speed. The point I was getting from this discussion, and I agree from my early point on the DD learning curve, is that learning to maneuver a DD is harder than learning to maneuver an I/O.

Diesel

07-13-2005, 01:56 PM

Your own words convict you. If it was easier to maneuver, as a seasoned boater, you would not have looked like "an idiot", and would not need "a lot" of practice (because you were already a seasoned boater).

No offense intended, but you should read your own words, and think about it a little.

I was trying to make a connection here. I too once was at the level you are at............with practice and patience you will soon be able to control your boat regardless of the conditions. Once you finally fully understand the capabilites and manuverabilty of your boat you will agree with me. :D :D

I was trying to show that even though I had driven every other type of boat and felt I was a better than average boater all that went out the window when I drove a DD for the first time. It is completely different, requires a completely different mind set and most of all it requires experience, especially in emergency situations. It just takes time... ;)

Diesel

07-13-2005, 01:58 PM

Speaking for the inboard newbies, I don't doubt that once one gets the hang of it, inboards are quite maneuverable at idle and low speed. The point I was getting from this discussion, and I agree from my early point on the DD learning curve, is that learning to maneuver a DD is harder than learning to maneuver an I/O.

Yes,

I agree with you 100% and with time you will really learn to appreciate the art of driving the DD.

MYMC

07-13-2005, 02:25 PM

The debate has moved from physics to learning and back again. From a purely "physics" standpoint I concede that the I/O would be more maneuverable than a single engine inboard as you can control thrust in either direction...it loses that advantage to a twin engine inboard. The problem is for most people that advantage gets turned into a disadvantage due to a lack of experience and boater education.

Once you have mastered either then you have a comfort zone (this goes to learning), that hopefully in an emergency will serve to protect you and your investment.

Hull design is the single largest contributing factor when discussing speed and ride. There are 75’ sport fishing boats that are capable of running down an L-18 PS197 in a flash and blowing by it (see Merritt and Spencer). A surface piercing drive is universally accepted as the most efficient for speeds over 35 knots (like an Arneson Twin Disc).

AirJunky

07-13-2005, 02:54 PM

I was trying to show that even though I had driven every other type of boat and felt I was a better than average boater all that went out the window when I drove a DD for the first time. It is completely different, requires a completely different mind set and most of all it requires experience, especially in emergency situations. It just takes time... ;)
Now that I'll agree with. But even with 10+ years & a USWA driver's certificate I still find myself in situations where I have to spin the boat around so I can get to the dock....... usually windy & or choppy.

maristarman

07-13-2005, 03:03 PM

The debate has moved from physics to learning and back again. From a purely "physics" standpoint I concede that the I/O would be more maneuverable than a single engine inboard as you can control thrust in either direction.

I appreciate your succinctness, and agree with your assessment.

Be careful though. There are some people on this board will argue with you, and claim that you are simply not

"at their level"

even though you may have been driving boats for many many years.

:)

smsunman1

07-13-2005, 03:07 PM

I don't think it has so much to do with maneuverablity as much as smoothness of a DD

Scot

07-13-2005, 05:04 PM

I cut my teeth on a DD which is probably opposite of most boaters. When I drove my first I/O I thought it handled and steered like an old truck with a worn out front end compared the DD. But after I learned how to prepare for turns, know the limitations of the acceleration, work the trim, back up, etc. I found myself on the water having a good time… NO PROBLEM….

IMO DD vs. I/O can be compared to golf clubs….

The pros and “some” scratch players use bladed clubs. They are harder to use, but far better, that is if you make the commitment to learn the sport.

Hackers (most people), use concave clubs. Very forgiving, doesn’t take the same amount of discipline to play the game, and makes for a potentially good day out on the course.

A pro can make good use of both…. A hacker, will have a tough day using the bladed club….

That’s all I’ve got to say about that!

BTW.... I am not calling anyone on this board, that drives any type of boat, a hacker!!!!! :D

Datdude

07-13-2005, 05:14 PM

Good comparison Scot

CaptCurt72

07-13-2005, 05:33 PM

I solved this problem with two boats; a Four Winns 200 Horizon I/O, and the DD MC.

I choose the boat to meet the needs of the day.

By the way, the Four Winns 302 gets 4-TIMES the mileage as the 454 MC...

MYMC

07-13-2005, 05:40 PM

Seems to me that you are outnumbered pretty badly on this point, and saying that 'people can't drive them' when you're getting hammered by lots of people who've owned both is kinda weak.
Being in the minority doesn't make you wrong...ask Galileo, Copernicus or Aristotle to name a few.

Granite_33

07-13-2005, 05:43 PM

8 pages and we're still at this, huh??

LakePirate

07-13-2005, 05:47 PM

[QUOTE=pilot02Lake Pirate, you're scaring me.... I grew up behind a 79 Galaxy which I sold to buy the Tristar 190. [/QUOTE]

We didn't jump right from the galaxy to the MC had a brief interlude with an underpowered SeaRay (late 80's where they had no power at all).

If you are just going out for a cruise, I do miss the Galaxy as well. After the Galaxy was stolen the deputy that did the report said that they probably just snatched the block out of it and it is in a race car somewhere.

Diesel

07-13-2005, 05:53 PM

We didn't jump right from the galaxy to the MC had a brief interlude with an underpowered SeaRay (late 80's where they had no power at all).

If you are just going out for a cruise, I do miss the Galaxy as well. After the Galaxy was stolen the deputy that did the report said that they probably just snatched the block out of it and it is in a race car somewhere.

You two get your own thread................... 8p :D

LakePirate

07-13-2005, 05:57 PM

IMO DD vs. I/O can be compared to golf clubs….

The pros and “some” scratch players use bladed clubs. They are harder to use, but far better, that is if you make the commitment to learn the sport.

Hackers (most people), use concave clubs. Very forgiving, doesn’t take the same amount of discipline to play the game, and makes for a potentially good day out on the course.

A pro can make good use of both…. A hacker, will have a tough day using the bladed club….

Scot - I would have to disagree with your assumption of a pro being able to hit cavity backs as well as blades. But I am right on board with your general assessment. While the cavity backs do offer forgiveness the blade does not, but once you get used to no forgiveness you have no desire to go back to cavity backs as they are more difficult for you to hit. Much is the case here, if you have mastered the skill of driving a DD then you will feel that an I/O would be either more difficult to make it do what you want and on a sub-conscience level, feel like you are riding with training wheels.

just my :twocents: