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Red 08 Xstar
10-19-2010, 08:22 PM
I need to bring my boat up to temperature so I can drain the oil easier. Is it ok to run the boat out of water as long as the raw water impeller has been removed? Of course I would shut it off as soon as the engine temperature hits 140 degrees.

Footin
10-19-2010, 08:27 PM
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if the impeller is removed it will not suck any water, if water is not moving through the block, the tempature will not read correctly.

nmcjr
10-19-2010, 08:31 PM
No, the engine temperature reads engine water temp so if there's no water in the engine it won't read correctly. Plus, even if it did, different parts of the engine would get hotter faster than others causing damage. Do not run it without water circulating, too risky.

You should get a "fake a lake" to run it out of water, or hook up a hose to the raw water intake connection on the pump.

As I side note, if you get a canister pump like in the link below you can drain the oil even when its cold.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=330596&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=10106&subdeptNum=10434&classNum=10440

MariStar-Man
10-19-2010, 10:23 PM
With a Valid Question like that, i would ask before you do anything to your boat...lol

I mean you didn't ask, But I was told not to put the prop in gear EVEN if you have water going thru the boat...

Thers tons of things that can damage the engine. I mean even starting it without turning on the blower for 4 minutes to evacuate the heavy gas fumes...

Any pics of that beauty?:D

oldairboater
10-20-2010, 08:06 AM
Never start your boat dry. Everytime I see someone start their boat [inboards and outboards] dry I think about how there is a lack of mechanical understanding.

pmkkdx
10-20-2010, 08:49 AM
agree with what all the others stated... do NOT run the engine without water circulating. If your boat is on a trailer (not in a lift / slip), it's very easy to get an inboard engine adjustable motor flusher ... looks like a toilet plunger with a hose connection. (example in link below)

http://www.overtons.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?i=74920&pdesc=Inboard_Engine_Adjustable_Motor_Flusher&aID=601L10&merchID=4006

I bought one when I switched from in I/O back in the mid 80s that I still use (25 years worth). very easy to merely screw a regular waterhose on, then slip up against the hull where the water intact port is, screw the adjustment to where it fits snuggly, turn on waterhose and start engine.

JohnE
10-20-2010, 08:56 AM
Even easier to just clamp a garden hose to the hose that connects to the through hull fitting. Or some use a bucket and drop the hose from the water pump into the bucket and run the garden hose to keep water in bucket. That way you are assured that the motor gets enough water.

CruisinGA
10-20-2010, 09:01 AM
Or some use a bucket and drop the hose from the water pump into the bucket and run the garden hose to keep water in bucket. That way you are assured that the motor gets enough water.

Can't lose with this method. It's the safest and doesn't require anything other than a bucket.

06197ttlq9-footer
10-20-2010, 09:09 AM
WOW.....Just when I was getting bored. Never!

Just change the oil, If you want, let it drain overnight. If you change oil and filter every 50hrs, you will be well within the recommended maintenance of your motor.

Whew......Glad you asked

thatsmrmastercraft
10-20-2010, 09:39 AM
I prefer the bucket method. You will be amazed just how much water your engine can suck up just at idle. I have a valve set up on my bucket where the garden hose connects for convenience to fill the bucket and get the engine running before I have to turn the hose on (which I can do from the driver's seat).

Starshack
10-20-2010, 10:20 AM
I like that bucket arrangement - I think I will make one this weekend.

ski_king
10-20-2010, 10:26 AM
I need to bring my boat up to temperature so I can drain the oil easier. Is it ok to run the boat out of water as long as the raw water impeller has been removed? Of course I would shut it off as soon as the engine temperature hits 140 degrees.
Go ahead, that would make one less wakeboard boat screwing up slalom glass.:D


I prefer the bucket method. You will be amazed just how much water your engine can suck up just at idle. I have a valve set up on my bucket where the garden hose connects for convenience to fill the bucket and get the engine running before I have to turn the hose on (which I can do from the driver's seat).
I like your bucket setup! I have been using the bucket method for a long time and this will make it even easier.

thatsmrmastercraft
10-20-2010, 10:29 AM
I like your bucket setup! I have been using the bucket method for a long time and this will make it even easier.

Thanks. The quick turn valve makes it handy as I am usually working by myself doing winterization. Don't even have to get out of the drivers seat.

Miss Rita
10-20-2010, 11:37 AM
Question re the bucket method: since the boat is in neutral, is it necessary to run water through the transmission cooler?

pmkkdx
10-20-2010, 12:10 PM
I prefer the bucket method. You will be amazed just how much water your engine can suck up just at idle. I have a valve set up on my bucket where the garden hose connects for convenience to fill the bucket and get the engine running before I have to turn the hose on (which I can do from the driver's seat).

interesting on the bucket concept!!! so all you have to do is disconnect the hose from the water pickup on the bottom of the hull and drop in the bucket full of water (and keep the water flowing via waterhose while engine running).

I'll have to look at the location on my '04 X2 to see how accessible that disconnection would be. would have been simple on my '83 S&S, just not sure on the V-drive.

Bouyhead
10-20-2010, 12:28 PM
Question re the bucket method: since the boat is in neutral, is it necessary to run water through the transmission cooler?

I don't think it would be necessary. I can't see the tranny generating to much heat idling in neutral.

thatsmrmastercraft
10-20-2010, 12:30 PM
interesting on the bucket concept!!! so all you have to do is disconnect the hose from the water pickup on the bottom of the hull and drop in the bucket full of water (and keep the water flowing via waterhose while engine running).

I'll have to look at the location on my '04 X2 to see how accessible that disconnection would be. would have been simple on my '83 S&S, just not sure on the V-drive.

I have since picked up a hose that I have installed to the bucket and I hook up to the raw water pump directly. Much easier to make the connection there.

wiltok
10-20-2010, 12:42 PM
I agree with the post above. I tried to remove the hose - raw water pickup in the bottom of the boat. Despite tugging and pulling for a while - that thing would not budge one bit. Going to hook into the pump instead...

thatsmrmastercraft
10-20-2010, 12:58 PM
I agree with the post above. I tried to remove the hose - raw water pickup in the bottom of the boat. Despite tugging and pulling for a while - that thing would not budge one bit. Going to hook into the pump instead...

You are going to want to free that hose to and from the oil cooler because sooner or later you will suck up some weeds and start overheating. Then comes need to disconnect both ends to clean out the cooler. This happened to me on vacation in August, and it took me almost no time to put the boat on the trailer, disconnect and clean out, and be back on the water again. Had I not freed up the connections prior to my vacation, it would have cost me more the the 20 minutes the boat was down.

Miss Rita
10-20-2010, 02:01 PM
I think the bucket method is best, just wondering what, if anything, would happen if I plumb a garden hose into the end of the raw water pickup line? Will anything bad happen if the hose is left turned on?

rgardjr1
10-20-2010, 02:28 PM
What if I plumb a garden hose into the end of the raw water pickup line? Will anything bad happen if the hose is left turned on?

I think the bucket method is best, just wondering what, if anything, would happen.

My salt water series came with a Perko Flush Pro installed. There is a hose connector installed on the transom where you hook up the hose. Sure makes running it out of the water easy. The salt water boats also come with a strainer to catch any stuff the pick up on the bottom of the boat may let in.

http://www.perko.com/catalog/category/underwater_hardware/product/62/

ahhudgins
10-20-2010, 02:32 PM
What if I plumb a garden hose into the end of the raw water pickup line? Will anything bad happen if the hose is left turned on?

I think the bucket method is best, just wondering what, if anything, would happen.

I've been hooking my garden hose into the water pickup line for over 25 years (3 Mastercrafts). Works fine as long as you stay at idle. If you try to increase the RPMs for any reason it will suck the hose flat very quickly.

I like the bucket method for any time I need to increase the RPMs.

thatsmrmastercraft
10-20-2010, 02:37 PM
What if I plumb a garden hose into the end of the raw water pickup line? Will anything bad happen if the hose is left turned on?

I think the bucket method is best, just wondering what, if anything, would happen.

There was a long debate about whether water could be forced into the engine through open exhaust valves with the water on and the engine not running. I was on the pro side of that argument until I realized the reason I was getting water into my oil pan was through a hole in my exhaust manifold. I'm still on the fence about whether or not this can happen. Rather than experiment, I use the bucket method. In addition, the hose alone cannot provide a sufficient amount of water to keep up with the demand of the raw water pump. Use the bucket method once and you will become a believer. I used to think my Fake-a-Lake was supplying more than enough water because some of it wasn't even being picked up but squirting out the side of the plunger and onto the driveway. Darn assumptions.

I have a 7 gallon bucket I plan to switch to but am considering a 14 Rubbermaid tub as a simple alternative.

When winterizing, you can just put the RV antifreeze into the bucket and shut the engine off once all the coolant is sucked out of the bucket.

1redTA
10-20-2010, 02:57 PM
I don't see why you want your oil hot when you drain it. When you shut off the motor the oil that can, goes to the oil pan. Even cold, the 10w-40 I use flows well.
I run the drain out the bottom and give the engine a while to drain; I'm not running a Jiffy Lube

jeverett
10-20-2010, 03:19 PM
I vote for the perko flushpro! It is great when your a lazy arse like me to just hook up the hose and let her rip. It also makes winterizing easy as well.

Slinkyredfoot
10-20-2010, 03:35 PM
Made my own fake a lake to hook up to any outside spigot

MariStar-Man
10-20-2010, 03:36 PM
I vote for the perko flushpro! It is great when your a lazy arse like me to just hook up the hose and let her rip. It also makes winterizing easy as well.


I ran a hose from the Perko in the engine compartment to to under the seat. I simply open up rear seat screw in hose, and with a brass turn on/off valve at male part of hose, i don't even need to exit the boat to turn water on...

Yes, It's plastic, so I would check it often...

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x203/DocHoliday1964/1999%20Maristar/Parts%20and%20Engine/DSC01138.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x203/DocHoliday1964/1999%20Maristar/Parts%20and%20Engine/DSC01146.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x203/DocHoliday1964/1999%20Maristar/Parts%20and%20Engine/DSC01145.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x203/DocHoliday1964/Pics%20as%20of%208-2009/DSC01315.jpg

thatsmrmastercraft
10-20-2010, 03:43 PM
I don't see why you want your oil hot when you drain it. When you shut off the motor the oil that can, goes to the oil pan. Even cold, the 10w-40 I use flows well.
I run the drain out the bottom and give the engine a while to drain; I'm not running a Jiffy Lube

The majority of the impurities will suspend in hot oil. When the engine is shut down and the oil drains to the pan, many of those impurities will settle and adhere to the bottom of the oil pan, and will not be released until warm oil circulates again, thereby not draining out on a cold engine oil change. Will it make a big difference in the life of an engine? You bet. How much? Hard to say. How long do you plan to keep your boat?

meg
10-20-2010, 04:14 PM
put a Perko in and no more worries!!!!

pmkkdx
10-20-2010, 04:25 PM
The majority of the impurities will suspend in hot oil. When the engine is shut down and the oil drains to the pan, many of those impurities will settle and adhere to the bottom of the oil pan, and will not be released until warm oil circulates again, thereby not draining out on a cold engine oil change. Will it make a big difference in the life of an engine? You bet. How much? Hard to say. How long do you plan to keep your boat?

^spot on ... I refer to the stuff you will miss with a cold oil change as sludge. fresh oil until you start the engine, then dirty oil again ...

now ya'll got me thinking about the perko thingy too ... if I get home before too late, I need to crawl into my boat to see how accessible the water pick-up line is up to the pump ... still learning on this V-drive after 25+ years with the inboards.

Red 08 Xstar
10-20-2010, 10:50 PM
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coz
10-20-2010, 10:58 PM
Water doesn't start flowing until the motor warms up to around 180 degrees. What's the difference in running the boat with no water flowing as long as I shut it off before the engine starts to over heat? I was always told the only reason not to start your boat out of the water is because it will destroy the raw water impeller.

Give it a go if ya don't believe the replies you got and see what happens, these guys aren't feeding you BS.

jvbaca
10-20-2010, 11:08 PM
Hey Red:

"I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind all the answers here. When you first start your car in the morning there is no water flowing through the cooling system due to the thermostat being closed. Water doesn't start flowing until the motor warms up to around 180 degrees. What's the difference in running the boat with no water flowing as long as I shut it off before the engine starts to over heat? I was always told the only reason not to start your boat out of the water is because it will destroy the raw water impeller."


My x-45 starts running water through it immediately (the water starts coming out the exhaust ports right after I start the boat). Don't see how yours would be any different.

coz
10-20-2010, 11:38 PM
Hey Red:



My x-45 starts running water through it immediately (the water starts coming out the exhaust ports right after I start the boat). Don't see how yours would be any different.

So let me get this right, you're saying your boat when sitting on the trailer and you fire it up there's water running through your engine? Interesting :confused: If I fired up my boat on the trailer there would be water comming out of my exhaust too from what's left in the system from the last time out and that would last about 10 seconds blowing out the exhaust then it would be running dry. I don't understand your post :confused:

cdstukey
10-20-2010, 11:54 PM
So let me get this right, you're saying your boat when sitting on the trailer and you fire it up there's water running through your engine? Interesting :confused: If I fired up my boat on the trailer there would be water comming out of my exhaust too from what's left in the system from the last time out and that would last about 10 seconds blowing out the exhaust then it would be running dry. I don't understand your post :confused:

I think he was saying that it starts to draw water as soon as it starts, as opposed to when the engine reaches a temperature at which it needs cooling. The assumption being that it is hooked up to a water source. But as is often the case, I could be wrong.

coz
10-21-2010, 12:05 AM
I think he was saying that it starts to draw water as soon as it starts, as opposed to when the engine reaches a temperature at which it needs cooling. The assumption being that it is hooked up to a water source. But as is often the case, I could be wrong.

All fresh water cooled boats do this when fired up, they don't start drawing when they get to temp.....now I'm really confused as to what he meant :D as for being wrong on things, welcome to the club :headbang:

thatsmrmastercraft
10-21-2010, 12:11 AM
There is a constant source of cooling water for your exhaust manifolds. The thermostat controls the circulation through the engine. Without water flowing through the exhaust manifolds, they will overheat in a big hurry. That is why you can always lay your hand on them at full operating temperature.

jvbaca
10-21-2010, 09:46 PM
So let me get this right, you're saying your boat when sitting on the trailer and you fire it up there's water running through your engine? Interesting :confused: If I fired up my boat on the trailer there would be water comming out of my exhaust too from what's left in the system from the last time out and that would last about 10 seconds blowing out the exhaust then it would be running dry. I don't understand your post :confused:


Sorry, I should have mentioned I've got the perko inline water system and the hose hooked-up when I start my motor. I start the motor then start the water flowing once the engine is running and about 30 seconds later water starts coming out the exhaust ports. The boat has a closed loop cooling system. Sorry for the confusion:o

thatsmrmastercraft
10-21-2010, 10:56 PM
Sorry, I should have mentioned I've got the perko inline water system and the hose hooked-up when I start my motor. I start the motor then start the water flowing once the engine is running and about 30 seconds later water starts coming out the exhaust ports. The boat has a closed loop cooling system. Sorry for the confusion:o

A collective sigh of relief has just come from Team Talk.

Miss Rita
10-24-2010, 10:28 AM
I tried the bucket method yesterday on my '89 with 351. I had the garden hose at full throttle. While warming the engine at 1200 rpm, the engine was using water much faster than the hose could supply, and there was a lot of air being sucked in. At 800 rpm, it was about even. Only when the engine was warm and running at 600 rpm was the water supply greater than the demand.

thatsmrmastercraft
10-24-2010, 01:22 PM
I tried the bucket method yesterday on my '89 with 351. I had the garden hose at full throttle. While warming the engine at 1200 rpm, the engine was using water much faster than the hose could supply, and there was a lot of air being sucked in. At 800 rpm, it was about even. Only when the engine was warm and running at 600 rpm was the water supply greater than the demand.

How was air being sucked in? If you have both the garden hose and the intake hose from the raw water pump at the bottom you shouldn't have that. Sucking air is as bad as not having enough water flow.

It is truly amazing how much water the raw water pump can take in.

Miss Rita
10-24-2010, 03:15 PM
How was air being sucked in? If you have both the garden hose and the intake hose from the raw water pump at the bottom you shouldn't have that. Sucking air is as bad as not having enough water flow.

The bucket was full when I started. Since the engine was sucking water faster than the hose was running, the bucket soon became empty, and the intake hose for the engine was sucking air along with whatever water it could get.

thatsmrmastercraft
10-24-2010, 03:27 PM
The bucket was full when I started. Since the engine was sucking water faster than the hose was running, the bucket soon became empty, and the intake hose for the engine was sucking air along with whatever water it could get.

Got it. I assume you shut it down rather than to let it suck air.

Cloaked
10-24-2010, 03:36 PM
I tried the bucket method yesterday on my '89 with 351. I had the garden hose at full throttle. While warming the engine at 1200 rpm, the engine was using water much faster than the hose could supply, and there was a lot of air being sucked in. At 800 rpm, it was about even. Only when the engine was warm and running at 600 rpm was the water supply greater than the demand.Here's a basic proven concept to give you an idea of the pump's capacity to move water; in order to check a raw water pump for proper functionality, you can place the boat in the lake and run it up to about 3000 RPM. Remove the top hose connection from the thermostat housing (where the pump would be lifting the water into the thermostat housing). The pump should fill a 5 gallon bucket in ~ 15 seconds. Take your hose and see how long it takes to fill the bucket. That will give you an idea of the flow rates of each scenario.

I have watered an engine (dryland) many times with the hose as a source. It will keep an engine cool but only to a certain point of continued operation. It will keep the impeller wet and elastic. It will suffice for adding winterization fluid, setting the timing, idle mixture, etc. Otherwise the engine will run hotter than normal if you run it at for an extended period (although the temp gauge will show about 160 - 175deg F). I have let one set and idle for a long time by keeping the engine at minimal RPMs when using the hose. I was a firm believer of the hose as a source of watering (at any RPM) until I removed the hose from the thermostat and saw how quickly (volumetriclly) it filled the bucket.

Your point is valid and I too cannot see how a 5 gal bucket contraption can suffice for adequate water for any length of time at a mid - high RPM range. Thus I still use the hose right directly into the top of the transmission cooler with respect to the known RPM limitations of such method. It's each to their own, as I once contemplated building a setup as you described (and discussed here many times) but so far, so good for me, after many years of using the house hose....

thatsmrmastercraft
10-24-2010, 03:38 PM
Here's a basic proven concept to give you an idea of the pump's capacity to move water;

In order to check a raw water pump for proper functionality, you can place the boat in the lake and run it up to about 3000 RPM. Remove the top hose connection from the thermostat housing (where the pump would be lifting the water into the thermostat housing). The pump should fill a 5 gallon bucket in ~ 15 seconds. Take your hose and see how long it takes to fill the bucket. That will give you an idea of the flow rates of each scenario.

No way to misunderstand that. Glad I sold my plunger with a hose fitting!

Cloaked
10-24-2010, 03:52 PM
No way to misunderstand that. Glad I sold my plunger with a hose fitting!And you allowed me to miss that opportunity to buy it? 8p

thatsmrmastercraft
10-24-2010, 04:53 PM
And you allowed me to miss that opportunity to buy it? 8p

I got $40 for. Morons with cash only come along so often. :D

Miss Rita
10-24-2010, 09:00 PM
Here's what I did today. I bought a "T" fitting that I put into the intake hose between the tranny cooler and the impeller, hooked up the hose to it. (I can't take credit for this idea, BTW.) When I turned the hose on, the water ran backwards, through the cooler, and out the bottom of the boat through the water intake. When I started the engine, it sucked the water back the other way. There was NO water running out the intake with the engine running, plenty of water going out with the exhaust.

Advantage: no Fake-A-Lake, no bucket to set up, the cooler was back-flushed, and the engine received all the water the hose could deliver.

Disadvantage: the transmission didn't get any cooling water. (Is that a problem while running 600-1200 rpm with the tranny in neutral?)

Now, tell me what's wrong with this solution.

thatsmrmastercraft
10-25-2010, 12:24 AM
The problem is a 5/8" hose cannot supply enough water to satisfy the demands of the raw water pump at anything other than a max speed of 600 RPM.

Miss Rita
10-25-2010, 12:38 PM
The problem is a 5/8" hose cannot supply enough water to satisfy the demands of the raw water pump at anything other than a max speed of 600 RPM.

With engine rpm at 1200, my five gallon bucket emptied in about 2 minutes, and that's with the hose running. The only way to get ALL the water the engine needs would be to have a 50 gallon bucket handy; that ain't gonna happen.

My engine will just have to put up with maximum output from my hose with the direct hookup. It's better than the Fake-A-Lake, which is all that dealer uses.

Luv2Ski
10-25-2010, 04:49 PM
Now, tell me what's wrong with this solution.

Sounds like a good solution to me, except for the trans not getting any cooling water. Best way to know if that is a problem would be to hook up a temp gauge on the tans and see how hot the fluid gets. Sure would be a bummer to overheat a transmission in the driveway.

On one hand the transmission is in neutral so the fluid is not passing through the network under high pressure; that should decrease the heat production. On the other hand, all of the clutch plates are slipping which will increase heat production. I don't have any idea what the net result would be.

Is there room to put the 'T' on the other side of the cooler?