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Eagle Lake Rebel
10-13-2010, 01:53 PM
Well I understand our President folded yesterday and will allow the corn growers (ADM) to move to a 15% blend vs 10% as of yesterday. Thanks big O for giving me just another reason to vote against you and your buds.

Eagle Lake Rebel
10-13-2010, 02:31 PM
The rest of the story....


The Obama administration will grant a request from ethanol producers to permit higher concentrations of the corn-based fuel additive in gasoline for vehicles made in 2007 and later, according to a person familiar with the decision.

The Environmental Protection Agency will announce as early as today its decision allowing refiners to blend as much as 15 percent ethanol into fuel, up from the current 10 percent, said the person, who spoke on condition of anonymity before the announcement.

Ethanol producers such as Archer Daniels Midland Co. have pressed the EPA to raise the limit. Opponents, including a coalition of oil companies, automakers and advocacy groups, say adding more ethanol may damage car engines, boost food prices and hurt the environment.

The EPA delayed its decision in December, saying it needed more time to conduct tests on the blend. A decision was again postponed in June, prompting Growth Energy, the ethanol-industry trade group seeking the 15 percent blend, to write to President Barack Obama expressing frustration with the process.

The plan to allow increased ethanol levels was reported late yesterday by the Wall Street Journal.

Raising the “blend ratio” will increase demand. By law, the U.S. must use 12 billion gallons of renewable fuels such as ethanol next year, up from 10.5 billion in 2009, and use 15 billion gallons by 2015.

Closely held Poet LLC, based in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, is the largest U.S. ethanol producer, followed by Decatur, Illinois-based Archer Daniels.

GM, Ford, Chrysler

General Motors Co., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC have said the government should be cautious about increasing the ethanol percentage in gasoline. AAA, the nation’s biggest motoring organization, said in July 2009 the EPA should reject the Growth Energy request because higher blends may damage exhaust systems, engines and fuel pumps and destroy catalytic converters.

Valero Energy Corp., the largest U.S. refiner, and Marathon Oil Co., the largest refiner in the Midwest, are concerned selling gasoline with more of the corn-based fuel additive may leave them liable for engine damage, according to company spokesmen.

east tx skier
10-13-2010, 03:30 PM
The rest of the rest of the story.

As far as our boats are concerned, it looks like E10 will remain an option (although admittedly not an ideal one).

"Environmental Protection Agency announced it now will allow up to 15% ethanol to be blended with gasoline in motor fuel -- but only for use in cars and trucks built since 2007.

The current allowable limit is 10%, and remains so for older vehicles, all motorcycles, heavy-duty vehicles and non-road engines (everything from leaf blowers to motorboats).

That sets up potential confusion at the gas pump, since buyers could have choose not octane ratings but also between E-10 and E-15 based end use. And while E-10 now is fairly common, stations are not required to offer it or the new E-15 -- and some already say they are going to sit out E-15 for now.

....

The EPA is expected to expand the E-15 OK to vehicles built since 2001 when additional testing is finished next month."

Source (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/10/epa-to-allow-15-ethanol-in-gasoline-up-from-10-now-/1)

If we're going to use this stuff as fuel, could we at least not make it out of food. :(

supturb89
10-13-2010, 03:46 PM
This should come as a surprise to no one.

CottagerGreg
10-13-2010, 03:56 PM
I assume regular gas at pumps will remain e-10 but maybe premium fuel will be e-15

premium usually used by Japanese and European cars with high compression or turbo engines with small displacement.

cbryan70
10-13-2010, 03:59 PM
I assume regular gas at pumps will remain e-10 but maybe premium fuel will be e-15

premium usually used by Japanese and European cars with high compression or turbo engines with small displacement.

Around here premium does not have any E in it I beleive.

medicmoose
10-13-2010, 04:45 PM
So...can we expect the gas prices to go down then???? Okay, maybe I'm dreaming.

oldairboater
10-13-2010, 06:24 PM
You are ranting but realistically--what damage has 10% alcohol blended fuel caused you? I have had to run it since it came out due to my proximity to Houston. The only problems we have had with the fuel is longevity. It doesn't store well with our high humidity. So ---I don't store gas over two months without stabilizer and I never keep it more then four months anyway. I already change out fuel hose regularly and I maintain my fuel filters. I will wait and see what happens before I rant.Well I understand our President folded yesterday and will allow the corn growers (ADM) to move to a 15% blend vs 10% as of yesterday. Thanks big O for giving me just another reason to vote against you and your buds.

oldairboater
10-13-2010, 06:28 PM
I am old enough to remember all the whining and crying when they removed lead from gas. It took a while to figure out valve guide and seat issues but that problem was solved. Now all the engines I work on are clean compared to when I was a teenager and I attribute that to cleaner fuel and no lead.

CottagerGreg
10-13-2010, 08:57 PM
Toronto $1.06 per ltr... aka 4.4 litres to a gallon... so $4.50+ a gallon for you folks...


our sunoco gas stations have upto 10% eth in ultra 94 gas. Other brands (Shell, Petro Canada, Esso, Pioneer, Husky) have upto 10%

Eagle Lake Rebel
10-13-2010, 09:24 PM
Oldair, I too remember when lead was pulled and motors sounded like hammers under load and wouldn't turn off, but we all knew getting rid of lead was a very good thing. But this is just a shell game....let's put something in fuel that makes it less efficient in the name of saving oil. Now let's put 50% more in and see what happens. Oh yea this stuff also eats up all kinds of older fuel lines and tanks and has a much shorter shelf life so you dump out the old stuff and replace with new fuel. Let's see what else, your fuel $ will go up and food $ also creep up cause farmers are growing fuel corn instead of real food (I don't blame them they are just trying to survive)....other than that I'm all for more corn gas. End of rant.

east tx skier
10-13-2010, 09:37 PM
Corn crops are being subbed for barley. Price of beer goes up. If we're going to use ethanol, I just wish we would make it from something we don't grow to eat or feed livestock.

1redTA
10-13-2010, 10:17 PM
corn isn't even the most efficient way of producing ethanol, switchgrass is. Anybody see how much water is used to make ethanol? It is supposed to be a "green" energy. Gas engines require about 30% more fuel to make up for the btu shortage. The compression ratios need to be raised a couple of points for the higher octane rating and the timing curve needs to be retuned for more advance

medicmoose
10-13-2010, 11:49 PM
Corn crops are being subbed for barley. Price of beer goes up. If we're going to use ethanol, I just wish we would make it from something we don't grow to eat or feed livestock.

Isn't corn indestructible though :rolleyes:

east tx skier
10-14-2010, 01:22 AM
corn isn't even the most efficient way of producing ethanol, switchgrass is. Anybody see how much water is used to make ethanol? It is supposed to be a "green" energy. Gas engines require about 30% more fuel to make up for the btu shortage. The compression ratios need to be raised a couple of points for the higher octane rating and the timing curve needs to be retuned for more advance

That's what Brazil uses. How much switch grass do we have?

I'd like to see them use Giant Salvania. That stuff reproduces 1/4 or its weight per day. Just add water. Surely there's enough cellulose in there to have some energy value. The nasty stuff really clogged up our lake a couple of years ago. Would be glad to see it burned for a good cause, like my boat gas.

east tx skier
10-14-2010, 01:24 AM
Isn't corn indestructible though :rolleyes:

My grandpa just told me to be sure to chew it. :D

jipster43
10-14-2010, 02:06 AM
95% of all corn grown in the U.S. is for feed. Of that only about 2% of the corn is used to feed the cattle. The rest becomes waste, but is totally viable for use in biodiesel. When corn prices went up in 2007 it was because speculators cornered the market and drove prices up. Subsequently many folks starved in poorer countries, but some speculators made upwards of a billion dollars in a single year but only paid a 15% tax on that.

Regardless. It wouldn't matter who was in office. The corn lobby is more powerful than a single elected official. After the Supreme Court's Citizens United decision, nearly all our "representatives" will be doing the bidding of the most powerful corporations. Get used to it.

JP :)

vision
10-14-2010, 09:01 AM
Regardless. It wouldn't matter who was in office. The corn lobby is more powerful than a single elected official. After the Supreme Court's Citizens United decision, nearly all our "representatives" will be doing the bidding of the most powerful corporations. Get used to it.

JP :)

I was actually hoping that after the SC decision, potentially the most far reaching decision they have made in a decade, that Congress would enact a law changing how corporations and lobbyists could contribute to a campaign fund. Just a pipe dream I guess.

I fear we will remain the United States of Lobbyists for awhile.

1redTA
10-14-2010, 09:43 AM
[QUOTE=east tx skier; Surely there's enough cellulose in there to have some energy value. The nasty stuff really clogged up our lake a couple of years ago. Would be glad to see it burned for a good cause, like my boat gas.[/QUOTE]

I remember a couple of years ago a company owned by GM was looking at using waste paper products ( cellulose ) to make ethanol.

supturb89
10-14-2010, 10:03 AM
Corn based ethanol would go belly up if the tariff on imported ethanol were lifted today. Obviously this won't happen because ADM and other corn-based ethanol producers have Congress in their hip pocket. When you hear things like in the OP's original post about the EPA delaying the decision on the increase to 15%, you can conclude that not enough money had made it into the right hands for an outcome to be determined. As was stated above it's a shell game designed so that everyone on each side of the aisle gets their piece of our pie. Send a message to them come November and DON'T VOTE!!!

wheeler
10-14-2010, 10:59 AM
Is there an additive on the market that we can add to the fuel to offset the 10% ethanol?

I understand that even 10% will eat hoses, fuel lines etc. in boat applications correct?

Jorski
10-14-2010, 11:45 AM
Re: switch grass

That's what Brazil uses. How much switch grass do we have?

Actually, Brazil uses sugar cane to manufacture ethanol....there is even less of that in the US than switch grass ;)

1redTA
10-14-2010, 11:50 AM
Is there an additive on the market that we can add to the fuel to offset the 10% ethanol?

I understand that even 10% will eat hoses, fuel lines etc. in boat applications correct?

It depends on the application...for example most vehicles that are obdII compliant are okay to run ethanol. On my 96 Trans Am, I run 2-3 gallons of E-85 from time to time in the 15 gallon tank.

On the other hand small engines are usually not okay! Carburetors usually do not have he seals to run ethanol, I have noticed recently a push for ethanol carbs.

As far as performance engines go Ethanol rocks! you can increase timing, have lower inlet air temps on boosted engines etc etc Some people have even switched to E-85 for their engines, when tuned accordingly they show dragstrip and rear wheel dyno increase.

east tx skier
10-14-2010, 01:24 PM
Re: switch grass



Actually, Brazil uses sugar cane to manufacture ethanol....there is even less of that in the US than switch grass ;)

You're absolutely right. Brain fart on my part.

TX.X-30 fan
10-14-2010, 02:19 PM
95% of all corn grown in the U.S. is for feed. Of that only about 2% of the corn is used to feed the cattle. The rest becomes waste, but is totally viable for use in biodiesel. When corn prices went up in 2007 it was because speculators cornered the market and drove prices up. Subsequently many folks starved in poorer countries, but some speculators made upwards of a billion dollars in a single year but only paid a 15% tax on that.

Regardless. It wouldn't matter who was in office. The corn lobby is more powerful than a single elected official. After the Supreme Court's Citizens United decision, nearly all our "representatives" will be doing the bidding of the most powerful corporations. Get used to it.

JP :)





It takes more energy to make than it produces, how is that a viable solution?? A gas or oil well is viable. That does not even factor the water issues with ethanol

06197ttlq9-footer
10-14-2010, 02:59 PM
I found that the farmers co-op here had real gas at one of their tanks. Went and applied for a credit card account, and that's where I fill up my boat. Benefit number two, when I am there, daylight Saturday mornings, there is no waiting :)

TallRedRider
10-14-2010, 04:00 PM
On the bright side of things, I am happier that my oil sheik is in Iowa instead of Iran.

Jim@BAWS
10-14-2010, 05:04 PM
You are ranting but realistically--what damage has 10% alcohol blended fuel caused you? I have had to run it since it came out due to my proximity to Houston. The only problems we have had with the fuel is longevity. It doesn't store well with our high humidity. So ---I don't store gas over two months without stabilizer and I never keep it more then four months anyway. I already change out fuel hose regularly and I maintain my fuel filters. I will wait and see what happens before I rant.


You pretty much answered it yourself!!! Fuel lines degrading before they are due to be changed, Carbs getting gunked up, ethanol attracts moisture, it costs more to produce this crap, older engines in cars are having issues, fuel filters getting clogged before there time is up, issues with tank sealers, metal gas tanks having issues, fuel degredation.

What else do you want to add???

gimmemoedmb
10-16-2010, 03:00 AM
So are we just that lucky that there are so many places in Minnesota to get non-oxy fuel? I live less than 2 miles from the closest one and less than 10 miles from multiple locations. These pumps specifically state they are for boats, motorcycles, etc. Every once in awhile I hate this state but most of the time I love it...

http://www.msra.com/NonOxygenatedFuel/NonOxyOct2010.pdf

bturner2
10-16-2010, 09:40 AM
I've been watching this thread and thinking that I really haven't seen any problems with blended fuels. So I went out yesterday afternoon to do some lawn clean up with the 15 year old John Deere lawn tractor and it mysteriously quit working.

The problem seemed to be that I wasn't getting any fuel to the carb. After checking for line blockage and a possible plugged fuel filter I went straight to the fuel pump. I called my local Deere dealer to see if they had any in stock and to my surprise they said that they try to keep at least three in stock at all times. Apparently the mixed fuel is causing the diaphragm in the pumps to fail in the older tractors and there has been a run on these parts over the past few years. They also told me to expect to put a new one in about 3 to five years as they haven't changed the material in the new pumps to adjust to the mixed fuels. Oh and of course they don't see a rebuild kit for the pumps just a new one at $60 a pop.

1redTA
10-16-2010, 11:17 AM
A "benefit" to ethanol is that it cleans the fuel system which is why a lot of junk get stuck in the fuel system. I doubled my fuel filter changing interval

JimN
10-16-2010, 11:53 AM
Is there an additive on the market that we can add to the fuel to offset the 10% ethanol?

I understand that even 10% will eat hoses, fuel lines etc. in boat applications correct?

Depends on what they're made of. The pump-in-tank boats have Teflon lines and it won't hurt them but the rubber lines don't like it.

JimN
10-16-2010, 11:55 AM
You pretty much answered it yourself!!! Fuel lines degrading before they are due to be changed, Carbs getting gunked up, ethanol attracts moisture, it costs more to produce this crap, older engines in cars are having issues, fuel filters getting clogged before there time is up, issues with tank sealers, metal gas tanks having issues, fuel degredation.

What else do you want to add???

The in-tank fuel pumps, too.

TX.X-30 fan
10-16-2010, 12:21 PM
After all that is know about corn gas why are we still doing this? Could it be all the thieves in washington masquerading as public servants.

JimN
10-16-2010, 12:42 PM
After all that is know about corn gas why are we still doing this? Could it be all the thieves in washington masquerading as public servants.

Let's get the pitchforks and torches, boys! We're going to Washington!!!!!:rant:

TX.X-30 fan
10-16-2010, 01:27 PM
Let's get the pitchforks and torches, boys! We're going to Washington!!!!!:rant:




Are they really training soldiers in house to house gun confiscations?? I bet ahbama saves Texas for last......:D

JimN
10-16-2010, 04:34 PM
Are they really training soldiers in house to house gun confiscations?? I bet ahbama saves Texas for last......:D

I haven't heard anything about that but the Second Amendment would have to go away officially before they could start. If they do, people would defend their use of guns for EXACTLY the reason it was originally written into the Bill of Rights, too.

Texas, and Arizona, New Mexico, Alaska and several other states. Actually, all but Illinois and Wisconsin have some kind of CCW law, right? Here, they're actually letting people carry openly and the courts are in agreement. The Democrats are NOT happy. The race for Governor has a fairly wide gap (R is winning) and after BS dumped on us by The Lipless Wonder (Governor Jim Doyle- emphasis on 'Doy!'), it's no surprise.

TX.X-30 fan
10-16-2010, 11:43 PM
Arizona you can put a shotgun in a scabbard and ride you Harley down the road.

JimN
10-17-2010, 12:12 AM
Arizona you can put a shotgun in a scabbard and ride you Harley down the road.

And as long as the person doing this isn't going to commit any crime, I have no problem with this.

Dad 2 3
10-20-2010, 07:24 PM
I read this today. It discusses the EPA and NMMA regarding the E15 change.

http://www.boattest.com/resources/view_news.aspx?newsid=4330