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wtrskr
10-11-2010, 11:54 PM
I figured that the oil change was going to be a pain but little did I know.

1994 tbi. The boat didn't come with the tube that goes through the plug hole for easy oil changes. The wrench slipped on me a few times so I switched to a vise grip without luck either. I tried tapping the vise and then the oil pan with a hammer to create vibration, still wouldn't budge.

Now it's stripped pretty good and I don't know what to do? I only have about 1 1/2" clearance so not much room to do anything.

Any ideas?? I just drained the block so I could dig into an exhaust manifold or head gasket because I had found water in a spark plug hole. In other words, I may have water in the oil so it needs to come out before freezing temps.

vision
10-12-2010, 12:52 AM
I would pump it out via the dipstick tube and leave the oil pan drain plug alone.

wtrskr
10-12-2010, 01:06 AM
I actually gave that a try without luck. I have a hand pump that I used for the tranny fluid. I can't get any suction started. Anybody else have luck through the dipstick? Is there any other areas I could get acess to pump such as tubes leading to the fuel filter? Just brainstorming.

Jesus_Freak
10-12-2010, 07:29 AM
In other words, I may have water in the oil so it needs to come out before freezing temps.

Bummer dude. Sorry to hear this.

If you do have significant amounts of water in your oil, the potential freezing of dispersed droplets or puddles of water in your oil is probably not your most serious concern.

I actually gave that a try without luck. I have a hand pump that I used for the tranny fluid. I can't get any suction started. Anybody else have luck through the dipstick? Is there any other areas I could get acess to pump such as tubes leading to the fuel filter? Just brainstorming.

Yes, the dipstick shaft method works. It is not the best, and there is the risk of getting the tube stuck. Regardless, buy a real pump.:) As Vision said, this is your best option.

CantRepeat
10-12-2010, 08:14 AM
I'd probably just weld a nut to the end of the drain plug. This would give you a new surface to turn with and the added heat would probably free up the drain plug so you could get it out.

1redTA
10-12-2010, 09:24 AM
I'd probably just weld a nut to the end of the drain plug. This would give you a new surface to turn with and the added heat would probably free up the drain plug so you could get it out.

I would try this I have used this method with great success. Although I would probably try a left handed drill bit

JLeuck64
10-12-2010, 09:28 AM
Use a file to put some new flats on the hex drain plug then you can grab it with a crescent wrench. Lefty loosey... righty tighty! :rolleyes:

thatsmrmastercraft
10-12-2010, 09:44 AM
When I was battling water in my oil, I could never get the drill driven pump to pick up any oil. I did manage to use a manual suction pump to get the oil out.

wtrskr
10-12-2010, 10:58 AM
Regarding getting oil out through the dipstick, the dipstick tube on my 94 tbi is long and narrow. I can't see a way to get a pump down inside of it. It's a tight fit for the dipstick even.

Here is the pump I used: http://www.amazon.com/Mityvac-Fluid-Transfer-Hand-Pump/dp/B001GOQJLS. The orange tubing fits snugly over the dipstick.

The dipstick didn't show any signs of water. I imagine there is a little since water was getting into the spark plug hole. It probably is ok if I don't figure it out before freezing temps.

The have no idea how you could get underneath the oil pan to weld. I've had to do everything by feel because I can't even see the drain plug becasue it is so far under.

The file idea is good. I'll try that next. Even that will be difficult with the space.

Thanks!

thatsmrmastercraft
10-12-2010, 11:05 AM
Regarding getting oil out through the dipstick, the dipstick tube on my 94 tbi is long and narrow. I can't see a way to get a pump down inside of it. It's a tight fit for the dipstick even.

Here is the pump I used: http://www.amazon.com/Mityvac-Fluid-Transfer-Hand-Pump/dp/B001GOQJLS. The orange tubing fits snugly over the dipstick.

The dipstick didn't show any signs of water. I imagine there is a little since water was getting into the spark plug hole. It probably is ok if I don't figure it out before freezing temps.

The have no idea how you could get underneath the oil pan to weld. I've had to do everything by feel because I can't even see the drain plug becasue it is so far under.

The file idea is good. I'll try that next. Even that will be difficult with the space.

Thanks!

That is the pump I used. Use the small diameter tubing. It just fits in the dipstick. You need to have the pick-up tube go to the bottom of the oil pan to get all the oil/water out. Remember, the water will be on the bottom.

FrankSchwab
10-12-2010, 11:48 AM
Have you thought about just pulling the engine?

No, seriously. Grab a couple of friends and a six-pack, you can have it out in an hour or so. That'll let you solve your drain plug problem permanently, work on your gaskets out of the boat, etc.

You've probably spent more time than pulling the engine would take trying to reach underneath and work blind. On a Prostar, it just shouldn't be that big a deal.

(disclaimer: I've never done it, and have no idea if it's as easy as it looks like it should be)

/frank

wtrskr
10-12-2010, 12:50 PM
That is the pump I used. Use the small diameter tubing. It just fits in the dipstick. You need to have the pick-up tube go to the bottom of the oil pan to get all the oil/water out. Remember, the water will be on the bottom.

Wow, you are right it does fit! I hadn't even pulled that tube out of the container because I didn't think it would fit. I also didn't realize how long it was until I unwound it.

I just did a quick check as I left the house. It gets stuck a bit at a kink where the dipstick goes between the exhaust manifold and the engine. I can either force it through or fix the issue when I pull the manifold. The other area I'm worried about is right where the dipstick enters the oil pan. Looks narrow. If I can get it past that point I'll be a happy man.

Regarding pulling the engine... Looks heavy. I was worried that it would be my only choice. I'd rarher just drink beers with the buds and not lift an engine!

thatsmrmastercraft
10-12-2010, 01:17 PM
Wow, you are right it does fit! I hadn't even pulled that tube out of the container because I didn't think it would fit. I also didn't realize how long it was until I unwound it.

I just did a quick check as I left the house. It gets stuck a bit at a kink where the dipstick goes between the exhaust manifold and the engine. I can either force it through or fix the issue when I pull the manifold. The other area I'm worried about is right where the dipstick enters the oil pan. Looks narrow. If I can get it past that point I'll be a happy man.

Regarding pulling the engine... Looks heavy. I was worried that it would be my only choice. I'd rarher just drink beers with the buds and not lift an engine!

When you are removing the suction hose from the dipstick tube, it will want to hang up at some point. What worked for me was to disconnect the suction tube from the pump and rotate it while working it slowly removing it.

1redTA
10-12-2010, 06:49 PM
When you are removing the suction hose from the dipstick tube, it will want to hang up at some point. What worked for me was to disconnect the suction tube from the pump and rotate it while working it slowly removing it.

I would grease it. When pulling oil samples in the Army some of the tubes would get stuck in the crankcase.

wtrskr
10-15-2010, 05:26 PM
Just an update for those who may read this and wonder how going into the dipstick tube works on '94 tbi. I know I've learned a lot by reading other's experiences.

I was able to successfully get the tube down the dipstick and into the oil pan. However, it was a very slow process pumping the oil, probably because the tube is so narrow and the oil wasn't warm. I called it quits for the for lack of time and will finish the job over the weekend. I haven't found any water in the oil so far.

Regarding the water in my spark plug hole that I mentioned earlier in the thread, I beleive I discovered that the exhaust manifold was the cause which is good news. I started another thread with pictures regarding that issue.

Cloaked
10-15-2010, 05:34 PM
Just an update for those who may read this and wonder how going into the dipstick tube works on '94 tbi. I know I've learned a lot by reading other's experiences.

I was able to successfully get the tube down the dipstick and into the oil pan. However, it was a very slow process pumping the oil, probably because the tube is so narrow and the oil wasn't warm. I called it quits for the for lack of time and will finish the job over the weekend. I haven't found any water in the oil so far.

Regarding the water in my spark plug hole that I mentioned earlier in the thread, I beleive I discovered that the exhaust manifold was the cause which is good news. I started another thread with pictures regarding that issue.Exhaust manifold is easy enough to fix. Be prepared for stubborn bolts that attach the manifold. Hopefully you'll have smooth sailing. Gaskets, new bolts, and torque specs is about all you'll need (other than maybe a new manifold?). Anti-seize the new bolt threads.

wtrskr
10-15-2010, 06:02 PM
Exhaust manifold is easy enough to fix. Be prepared for stubborn bolts that attach the manifold. Hopefully you'll have smooth sailing. Gaskets, new bolts, and torque specs is about all you'll need (other than maybe a new manifold?). Anti-seize the new bolt threads.

The reason I say I'm pretty confident it is the manifold is because I already removed the manifold and took a look. And yes, the bolts were a little stubborn (but not terrible). Take a look at this thread I started with pictures: http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=38200

I did also obtain a shop manual with the torque specs (30-35 ft.-lb). It doesn't say that I need new bolts so I wasn't sure if it is necessary on Manifolds.

Thanks for the tip on the Anti-seize.

Cloaked
10-15-2010, 06:08 PM
The reason I say I'm pretty confident it is the manifold is because I already removed the manifold and took a look. And yes, the bolts were a little stubborn (but not terrible). Take a look at this thread I started with pictures: http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=38200

I did also obtain a shop manual with the torque specs (30-35 ft.-lb). It doesn't say that I need new bolts so I wasn't sure if it is necessary on Manifolds.

Thanks for the tip on the Anti-seize.I'd use new bolts regardless. Those may be brittle or stretched (elongated) from previous use.

thatsmrmastercraft
10-15-2010, 06:25 PM
Cloaked is right. Definitely use a new set of bolts.

wtrskr
10-16-2010, 07:28 PM
Spent a little more time on suctioning the oil today. I've got almost a half gallon so far. It's really slow going - this can't be the long term solution.

I detached the riser/elbow, whatever you want to call it, from the exhaust manifold. After looking into the manifold from the top, I'm no longer as sure that the exhaust manifold is the problem.

I don't see a clear path of rust where the water was leading down toward the exhaust valves. I can't be sure which direction the moisture came from. I guess I'll be taking it to a machine shop to be checked.

JohnnyB
10-16-2010, 07:43 PM
A few things.....

First, sucking oil out through the dipstick goes much quicker with warm oil and the right pump.

Second, its still a PITA having to pump the oil through the dipstick instead of dropping the hose through the drain plug. Can you file the sides of the plug enough to get a wrench to bite? I'm guessing you don't have enough room to drop the oil pan??? If you can get that plug out one last time, you can order a drain line to thread in.

Best of luck with your oil change.

Cloaked
10-16-2010, 08:02 PM
Spent a little more time on suctioning the oil today. I've got almost a half gallon so far. It's really slow going - this can't be the long term solution.

I detached the riser/elbow, whatever you want to call it, from the exhaust manifold. After looking into the manifold from the top, I'm no longer as sure that the exhaust manifold is the problem.

I don't see a clear path of rust where the water was leading down toward the exhaust valves. I can't be sure which direction the moisture came from. I guess I'll be taking it to a machine shop to be checked.What you saw from the top of the manifold is about all one can expect to see from that angle.

I'd now be inclined to remove the exhaust manifold and have a shop (or a friend) to do a dye penetrant test (commonly known as a PT) on it. Welding shops should have a PT kit, afterall, that is one of the nondestructive methods of weld and metal repair area inspections. Just some dye and some cleaner. The dye stays in the crack.

JohnnyB has a point and I know you would like to get that done. Or, I'd go on and bite the bullet, pull the engine and remove / replace the drain plug. Gotta' do something, sooner or later. Make it sooner.

jimmer2880
10-16-2010, 09:32 PM
I pump oil out of mine about every-other oil change. I even have a hand-vaccume pump. HOWEVER, the key is, and I can't say this enough. The engine oil must be HOT. When I say hot, I don't mean run it on the hose in your driveway for 10 minutes and call it a day. No, I mean - take it skiing for a couple hours, put it on the trailer and start changing the oil.

Sucking the oil out of my VW Jetta Diesel is the only way, unless I want to drop the skid pan every time.

I made the mistake once, of only driving the car a couple miles before changing it. It took FOREVER. Won't do that again. I almost filled it up, just to drive it around, just so I could warm it up properly.

wtrskr
10-18-2010, 11:48 PM
Got just over a gallon of oil out with the suction pump. Spent 5-10 minutes here and there until I got it all. Will try next time with hot oil and see how it goes, that is unless I can fairly easily file the nut and get a wrench on it.

I called up a machine shop to get a quote on testing the exahaust manifolds. The quote was $90. It seemed like an awful lot to test and old hunk of metal, yet hard not to do it because if they found a crack it could save me from having to pull the heads.

Did an internet search on testing manifolds. I found an interesting method of filling the manifold with acetone and watching for leaks. The idea is that acetone is thinner than water (much less surface tension) so it finds its way through cracks much easier.

Well, did the test and no leaks. Bad news. Now it is either pay for a machine shop test and hope for the best or pull the head.

wtrskr
10-18-2010, 11:51 PM
Oh, and no evidence of water in the oil. I'm not sure if that tells me anything?

wtrskr
10-21-2010, 10:22 AM
I'm in the process of pulling the head and have a question.

The repair manual describes setting the #1 piston at Top Dead Center before removing the Rocker Arms. Because you have to jump around a bit in the manual, I didn't see this until I removed the intake manifold, distributor, etc.

Is setting it at TDC this necessary? I can't figure out how I'll be able to get leverage to crank the engine by hand.

Shouldn't I be OK if the engine isn't cranked at all from the time I remove the head to the time I put it back on?

thatsmrmastercraft
10-21-2010, 10:37 AM
Put a socket and a big ratchet on the crank pulley and give it a turn with your finger in the number 1 plug hole. Stop at the top of the compression stroke.

wtrskr
10-21-2010, 11:16 AM
Could you describe what I need to do on the picture below. The only spot where I can grab with a rachet is the lower right part of the belt (not sure what that is called?)

I assume I need to turn the wheel where the raw water pump is (clockwise)? I can't figure out anything to grab to get leverage. The shop manual mentions maybe having to use a pry bar, but I'm not sure where the pry bar would go.

thatsmrmastercraft
10-21-2010, 01:47 PM
Could you describe what I need to do on the picture below. The only spot where I can grab with a rachet is the lower right part of the belt (not sure what that is called?)

I assume I need to turn the wheel where the raw water pump is (clockwise)? I can't figure out anything to grab to get leverage. The shop manual mentions maybe having to use a pry bar, but I'm not sure where the pry bar would go.

Forgot about the crank mounted raw water pump (all you guys with these new fangled boats :D). You could bump the engine with the starter. I would use a remote start switch rather than the key as the remote is much easier to give it a little bump. You are going to need to get there to install the dist. properly anyway.

Table Rocker
10-21-2010, 07:08 PM
that is unless I can fairly easily file the nut and get a wrench on it.
Have you tried a small pipe wrench on it?

wtrskr
10-21-2010, 11:55 PM
A small pipe wrench is another good idea.

Few updates to my last post.

-Apparently, you can turn the engine by hand by removing the raw water pump.

-I was informed that I'm fine removing the head without setting to "Top Dead Center" as long as the engine isn't moved after removing the distributor.

I pulled the head and think I found my problem. The gasket appeared to be blown slightly between #4 and # 6 cylinder. The blown area also touches the water jacket.

I'm not sure if the low compression in #6 was from the gasket, but I'm going to bank on it. I don't notice any head warpage when I put a straight edge on it. Now I've got to try removing the old gasket and soon put everything back together.

wtrskr
10-25-2010, 12:13 PM
Question for anyone with experience on cylinder head work.

The gaskets are in the mail from skidim. I'm curious as to opinions on if and where to use gasket sealing compound? The repair manual calls for permatex gasket sealing compound on the head gasket (only if it is a metal gasket). It also calls for sealer on the intake manifold, exhaust manifold, thermastat housing, and risers.

I talked to a person who said he doesn't use sealing compound in case he needs to dig into the engine in the future. I plan on using it for the head gasket to be safe, but was thinking about not using it on the intake manifold and possibly the exhaust manifold. Any thoughts on that plan? Removing the gasket for this project was a pain.

thatsmrmastercraft
10-25-2010, 12:24 PM
Engine gaskets are a one use item. Using the sealer will help ensure the gaskets stays in the right place, but make for more work cleaning up if there is a next time.

wtrskr
10-25-2010, 02:21 PM
Engine gaskets are a one use item. Using the sealer will help ensure the gaskets stays in the right place, but make for more work cleaning up if there is a next time.

Yeah, I get that. I was wondering if anyone had an opinion on how risky it is to not use sealer. Is "by the book" (ie, the repair manual) the way people do it in practice?

thatsmrmastercraft
10-25-2010, 05:50 PM
I always have.

wtrskr
11-01-2010, 02:50 PM
Finished up the Head Gasket replacement this weekend. I had a scary few moments where I couldn't get her to start. Eventually I figured out the issue and it ran well.

Ran it Saturday and Sunday. No evidece of water in the cylinder anymore. I don't think I'll feel like I'm fully in the clear until I use it several times next spring, but so far so good.

When I first asked about the water I found on the Spark Plug, I had asked if a head gasket could be a DIY project. I was told it is a DIY project if you have a good torque wrench and know what your doing. Well, I didn't have a torque wrench and had no I idea what I was doing. Somehow pulled it off anyhow. Learned a ton in the process.

When I winterized yesterday, I was able to reflect on all I had done since I purchased the boat in June:

-Replaced shaft packing
-patched a silence master with JB weld
-Cleaned upholstry(magic erasers etc.) and Carpet thoroughly
-New fuel pump (the one job I didn't finish myself)
-Fixed bad wiring connections to autobilge and blower
-Sanded and applied teak sealer to swim platform
-Wetsanded and polished gelcoat
-Applied touch up paint on the glass frames.
-Replaced head gasket

The next projects maybe in the Spring are:

-Put the new decals on
-replace insulation on the engine cover
-possibly replace steering cable.

(of course these will all take a back seat to my #1 initiative which will be skiing)

The board has been a great resource. Thanks everyone.

wtrskr
10-24-2011, 05:24 PM
I figured I'd go back to my original thread on this one to ask a couple questions to the board. I was able get the stuck drain plug out this fall which means I didn't have to change the oil through the dipstick like last year.

For the short term I decided to get a drain plug bolt from the nearby autoparts store since the old drain plug bolt was stripped. I picked up the appropriate one for a vehicle with the chevy 350 5.7L TBI and then came to discover that the threads don't match my old one. The bolt that was in the oil pan was labeled 5.8 on top and a "S" below it if that means anything of use.

So here are the questions. Any ideas why my new and old bolts would have different threads? Any ideas how I can go about finding a bolt with the same thread as the old stripped one? I assume the thread on a oil drain plug hose kit from skidim.com won't match then either?

Table Rocker
10-25-2011, 01:10 AM
So here are the questions. Any ideas why my new and old bolts would have different threads? Any ideas how I can go about finding a bolt with the same thread as the old stripped one? I assume the thread on a oil drain plug hose kit from skidim.com won't match then either?From looking at the parts sites, it appears both standard and metric thread were used on the 5.7 oil pans. Whatever you have, I guess you need the other.

Find out which you need and get the drain hose setup (standard and metric are available). It's nice to be able to run a hose out the bilge and into a your oil recycling container.

wtrskr
10-25-2011, 12:58 PM
From looking at the parts sites, it appears both standard and metric thread were used on the 5.7 oil pans. Whatever you have, I guess you need the other.

Find out which you need and get the drain hose setup (standard and metric are available). It's nice to be able to run a hose out the bilge and into a your oil recycling container.

I took another look at the drain hose setups at skdiim.com. It says the metric bolts were used for 1996 and newer Chevy 350's and standard for older (1/2" thread). I've got a 1994 so, in theory, mine should be standard 1/2" thread like the one I picked up at the autoparts store.

There is something fishy. I wonder why it didn't have the hose to begin with? I haven't been able to find the serial number on the engine to confirm that it is original to the boat. I was told it is, but I'm wondering if it was swapped at one point, thus the reason for the different thread on the oil pan, and possibly the blown head gasket because the head wasn't installed properly.

Oh well. The boat runs great and looks great so I'm not worried. Dash and computer hours also both show low hours too.

Kevin 89MC
10-25-2011, 04:46 PM
Not sure about your year, but I believe for a while, the oil drain hose was an option. Yours may have been ordered without it.

gid
11-09-2011, 09:57 AM
Need some advice - while trying to extract the oil thru the dipstick last night the tube from the extractor got stuck somewhere in the oil pan / dipstick tube. Well, I pulled it broke and now I have about 4"+ of plastic tube w. METAL wire inside (I guess to keep the tube from collapsing)
So now what? Should the engine be pulled out, pull the drain pan off and find the metal? I have no clue who could do this (Grooms engine?) the MC dealer is not an option. I just had this engine rebuild due to the flood (rebuilt in east TN not locally)

-V-
11-09-2011, 11:11 AM
can you pull the dipstick tube off? is it stuck in the tube or is it in the oil pan?

JimN
11-09-2011, 11:24 AM
Put a socket and a big ratchet on the crank pulley and give it a turn with your finger in the number 1 plug hole. Stop at the top of the compression stroke.

How will he know if it's at the top of the compression stroke without the head in place?

JimN
11-09-2011, 11:27 AM
Finished up the Head Gasket replacement this weekend. I had a scary few moments where I couldn't get her to start. Eventually I figured out the issue and it ran well.

Ran it Saturday and Sunday. No evidece of water in the cylinder anymore. I don't think I'll feel like I'm fully in the clear until I use it several times next spring, but so far so good.

When I first asked about the water I found on the Spark Plug, I had asked if a head gasket could be a DIY project. I was told it is a DIY project if you have a good torque wrench and know what your doing. Well, I didn't have a torque wrench and had no I idea what I was doing. Somehow pulled it off anyhow. Learned a ton in the process.

When I winterized yesterday, I was able to reflect on all I had done since I purchased the boat in June:


-Replaced shaft packing
-patched a silence master with JB weld
-Cleaned upholstry(magic erasers etc.) and Carpet thoroughly
-New fuel pump (the one job I didn't finish myself)
-Fixed bad wiring connections to autobilge and blower
-Sanded and applied teak sealer to swim platform
-Wetsanded and polished gelcoat
-Applied touch up paint on the glass frames.
-Replaced head gasket

The next projects maybe in the Spring are:

-Put the new decals on
-replace insulation on the engine cover
-possibly replace steering cable.

(of course these will all take a back seat to my #1 initiative which will be skiing)

The board has been a great resource. Thanks everyone.

You didn't use a torque wrench? I wouldn't leave it that way. Uneven pressure can cause head/gasket failure. That's why they have a specific torque spec and bolt tightening pattern. Cast iron doesn't like to be bent and twisted.

gid
11-09-2011, 11:42 AM
can you pull the dipstick tube off? is it stuck in the tube or is it in the oil pan?

Have not tried to pull the dipstick tube off - I didnt see any bolts to it, does it just slide down into the oil pan? I think it is stuck 1/2 in the tube and pan.
THANK you for your reply

wtrskr
11-09-2011, 07:06 PM
You didn't use a torque wrench? I wouldn't leave it that way. Uneven pressure can cause head/gasket failure. That's why they have a specific torque spec and bolt tightening pattern. Cast iron doesn't like to be bent and twisted.

Thanks. I did end up renting a torque wrench.

The way I wrote that wasn't clear. I meant that I didn't know what I was doing and didn't have a torque wrench before starting the endeavor. I ended up renting the wrench and learned torque specs etc. via the Clymer's manual.

gid
11-10-2011, 10:47 AM
I had to remove the tranny oil cooler to get access to the dipstick tube bolt; then removed the bolt. I pulled and wiggled on the tube till it came out; the plastic/metal was all in the lower portion of the tube and was able to get it out. Replacing the tube was pretty simple a few taps from a small hammer and it slid back in.

Table Rocker
11-10-2011, 10:50 AM
I had to remove the tranny oil cooler to get access to the dipstick tube bolt; then removed the bolt. I pulled and wiggled on the tube till it came out; the plastic/metal was all in the lower portion of the tube and was able to get it out. Replacing the tube was pretty simple a few taps from a small hammer and it slid back in.That's good news! It's hard to feel lucky in the middle of something like that, but at least you didn't have to pull the oil pan.