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View Full Version : Tired 351 Indmar Getting New Life


zekedog
08-09-2010, 11:43 AM
1992 PS 190 351 HO Indmar. So I noticed while changing my valve cover gaskets that the rocker arm on the rear valve on the #7 cylinder was very loose and jiggly. The back valve wasn't moving at all. Did some research and asked a lot of questions. Most answers were that my lifter was shot. I decided that after 18 years the poor thing needed some love. By the way, the boat ran very strong with 7 out of 8 cylinders working. A slight rough idle but pulled like a truck and hit 4500 rpms all day long.

So, my buddy and I spent Sunday doing the tear down. No big surprises yet. A word of advice for anyone doing this in the future. Take the ski pole out of the boat. There are 2 u-bolts under the floor cutout. Do this first. I was hoping I could slide the camshaft out without removing the pole. Nope. Nada. 2nd bit of useful info...make sure when you take the big bolt out of the front of the crankshaft you take the bigass washer with it. I can tell you from experience the harmonic balancer puller will not pull the balancer with the washer still in the hole. Actually it will break the removal bolts that go through the crowsfoot. This will add about 90 minutes of 4rd degree pissed off to your relaxing afternoon. More advice while I'm giving it. That bigass bolt is really tight. You will turn the crank while trying to break it loose. My buddy and I put a breaker bar on the bolt and wedged the handle to the floor. Hit the key for a second. The starter has enough torque to break it loose. This little setback added the 3rd degree of pissed off to the day. Another friend let me borrow his Makita impact wrench to make the project easier. Very nice.

So, this weeks fun? New Edelbrock 2181 Performer manifold, Edelbrock 7811 Timing Chain/Gears, Edelbrock 2182 Performer Plus, and new push rods.



60518
Before

60519
During

60520

Bad lifter. Notice the hole in the bottom. The cam had a slight ridge on the lobe. The guy at the auto parts store said this is common in boats and hot rods. Anything that doesn't get used on a regular basis and is usually doing "dry" start ups. This also might have something to do with the various posts here about using a heavy zinc content motor oil. I bought this boat from the original owner this spring. I have known him for 15 years and he hadn't used it in two summers. Before that maybe 2-3 times per summer. The hour meter was replaced with a depth finder so I can't tell you true hours.

Will update later in the week. Thanks to all TT members who gave me the info to start this little project.

oldairboater
08-09-2010, 12:05 PM
I could have warned you about the washer. I grew up being told to start an engine in these boats and bring the rpm above 1200 to oil the cams. Just me but if I was going that deep those heads would have came off and went to the head shop.

hkallestad
08-09-2010, 05:03 PM
Cool project, keep feeding us with loads of pictures! Did you not compression test the engine before the teardown?

Kyle
08-09-2010, 08:05 PM
You have gt40 heads. Take them to the machine shop and have a valve job done. Probably less than 200 and it will help a lot. You may even want to replace the rings and berrings.


Please take my advice as you can look at one of my threads started when I chose not to touch the bottom end and replaced my cam. I have the cam specs for the origional cam that was in your boat and comp can custom grind you one for less than 200. Indmar and PCM want close to 700 for the cam.

My bottom end gave out and caused a huge mess. Please look at my pics of the damage so you dont have to end up spending a fortune like me.


http://mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=36324

Kyle
08-09-2010, 08:08 PM
I had a fresh top end and a new cam and the bottom end could not take it. I would spend a few more bucks so you dont have to go through what I am.

Look at the dates that I posted the thread. I still am having a hard time finding a Marine oil pan and distributor. Ford parts are RARE.

zekedog
08-10-2010, 10:36 AM
Kyle- What mods did you do to your engine to get 5000 rpm's out of it? I thought 4600 was redline. You guys talked me into it. Heads are coming off tonight.

Kyle
08-10-2010, 02:24 PM
Kyle- What mods did you do to your engine to get 5000 rpm's out of it? I thought 4600 was redline. You guys talked me into it. Heads are coming off tonight.


4600 is for a non HO engine. The HO 285 hp is rated at 4800rmp. The red line is auto set in your electronic ignition. It is like 5400 before it will bounce off of the limiter. We bounced another MC that I know of off the limiter when a friend decided to re prop his and went too small (his idea and his boat) and hitting the limiter was on accident.

5000rpm was off of my digital perfect pass stargazer guage. The factory needle guage has always been off about 200 rpm. The perfect pass is hooked up to the coil and is way more accurate than the factory guage. example the PP would read 5000 and guage would read 4800.

I have gone from a gt40 head to a gt40p head. The "P" head is a 302ci Explorer head. The only difference is the head bolt size so you have to have a machine shop or yourself drill the bolt holes in the head bigger to fit a 1/2 inch bolt. The combustion chamber is the same and both heads are 59cc heads. The only difference is that the "P" head has the spark plug location in the center of the combustion chamber where the standard gt40 head is angled. The "P" head is about 20 more horse power than the standard gt40 heads.

I am running a comp cam and if you need specs I can send them to you. I am having one made now and if you need the grind number I would be more than happy to give it to you. It is the factory lift and duration. I have not fooled with going bigger with the cam as I dont want to loose low end and I am not racing this boat.

I timed the engine to 10deg to 12deg BTDC depending on the angle. I probably will retard the timing slightly with this new engine that I am building. This is what will bump your timing up to runn the rpms. I also recall with the timing retarded the startup was not as easy this is why I advanced slightly.

I also ran 46 on GPS loaded down. I have a power slot and am running a 13.7X17.75 oj prop that is a 4 blade.

I hope this helps you.

By the way I deeply regret not touching the bottom end as you can see what has happened. Not knowing how many hours you have....You may want to think twice. I chose the quick rout and it has cost me a ton of money and a summer without a boat. All in all you only have about an hour ahead of you to pull the entire engine and tranny out and get the tranny off of the engine. Take it to a machine shop and have it looked at. On mine I believe a berring was worn and things started getting loose and I broke a rod cap senting parts everywhere.

You may just have to re ring it and put new rod and main berrings in it. I would be suprised if you had to resurface the crank or bore the block.

Just dont want what I am going through to happen to you. It sucks BAD!

SDProstar
08-31-2010, 04:58 PM
I had a fresh top end and a new cam and the bottom end could not take it. I would spend a few more bucks so you dont have to go through what I am.

Look at the dates that I posted the thread. I still am having a hard time finding a Marine oil pan and distributor. Ford parts are RARE.

Kyle, I have an extra 351w marine oil pan. Pay for the shipping and it's yours. Some surface rust, but could be cleaned up and painted. Send me a PM if interested.
Chris
San Diego

gr82bgreen
09-01-2010, 03:30 PM
4600 is for a non HO engine. The HO 285 hp is rated at 4800rmp. The red line is auto set in your electronic ignition. It is like 5400 before it will bounce off of the limiter. We bounced another MC that I know of off the limiter when a friend decided to re prop his and went too small (his idea and his boat) and hitting the limiter was on accident.

5000rpm was off of my digital perfect pass stargazer guage. The factory needle guage has always been off about 200 rpm. The perfect pass is hooked up to the coil and is way more accurate than the factory guage. example the PP would read 5000 and guage would read 4800.

I have gone from a gt40 head to a gt40p head. The "P" head is a 302ci Explorer head. The only difference is the head bolt size so you have to have a machine shop or yourself drill the bolt holes in the head bigger to fit a 1/2 inch bolt. The combustion chamber is the same and both heads are 59cc heads. The only difference is that the "P" head has the spark plug location in the center of the combustion chamber where the standard gt40 head is angled. The "P" head is about 20 more horse power than the standard gt40 heads.

I am running a comp cam and if you need specs I can send them to you. I am having one made now and if you need the grind number I would be more than happy to give it to you. It is the factory lift and duration. I have not fooled with going bigger with the cam as I dont want to loose low end and I am not racing this boat.

I timed the engine to 10deg to 12deg BTDC depending on the angle. I probably will retard the timing slightly with this new engine that I am building. This is what will bump your timing up to runn the rpms. I also recall with the timing retarded the startup was not as easy this is why I advanced slightly.

I also ran 46 on GPS loaded down. I have a power slot and am running a 13.7X17.75 oj prop that is a 4 blade.

I hope this helps you.

By the way I deeply regret not touching the bottom end as you can see what has happened. Not knowing how many hours you have....You may want to think twice. I chose the quick rout and it has cost me a ton of money and a summer without a boat. All in all you only have about an hour ahead of you to pull the entire engine and tranny out and get the tranny off of the engine. Take it to a machine shop and have it looked at. On mine I believe a berring was worn and things started getting loose and I broke a rod cap senting parts everywhere.

You may just have to re ring it and put new rod and main berrings in it. I would be suprised if you had to resurface the crank or bore the block.

Just dont want what I am going through to happen to you. It sucks BAD!

As a ford automotive mechanic I have to agree with the rebuild. There is metal from that lifter in your engine. The filter may not have picked it all up. At the very least I would pull the oil pan and inspect all your bearings. You could do a rebuild pretty cheap now. Not so much once everything craters. I am not trying to scare you, It may be ok, but just giving you my 25 yrs experience. Also if your rod or crank bearings are worn badly (if you can see copper) it is not advisable to just replace them. You should have your crank machined and rod caps resized.

Bert
09-01-2010, 04:54 PM
As a ford automotive mechanic I have to agree with the rebuild. There is metal from that lifter in your engine. The filter may not have picked it all up. At the very least I would pull the oil pan and inspect all your bearings. You could do a rebuild pretty cheap now. Not so much once everything craters. I am not trying to scare you, It may be ok, but just giving you my 25 yrs experience. Also if your rod or crank bearings are worn badly (if you can see copper) it is not advisable to just replace them. You should have your crank machined and rod caps resized. Cheaper to take care of it before catastrophic failure right? Makes sense if you beef up top end puts more stress on bottom end. If I ever have to get into my engine the whole thing comes out and goes to an engine builder that does it right and breaks it in on the dyno. Have done this with some car engines and it has been well worth it.

Kyle
09-07-2010, 03:12 PM
Kyle, I have an extra 351w marine oil pan. Pay for the shipping and it's yours. Some surface rust, but could be cleaned up and painted. Send me a PM if interested.
Chris
San Diego

PM sent.....

brianmax
11-17-2010, 03:48 AM
Due to cracked heads I am rebuilding my 351W. I am looking at aftermarket heads. Can save $500 if I get them bare versus assembled. The intake is 194 and the exhaust is 160 on the aftermarket heads. Now for the stupid question. How do I measure the valves that I have now to tell if they are 194/160 or not?
This is my first rebuild so please excuse my ignorance. :)
Thanks for any help you can provide.

Kyle
11-17-2010, 12:20 PM
I would buy heads with valves already in them. You will need to do a valve grind at a machine shop with your current valves and replace seals. Buy the assembled heads. By the time you spend money at the machine shop and fool around it will wash out in price. I also seriously doubt the valves are the same size. My .02

Laurel_Lake_Skier
11-17-2010, 11:19 PM
I'd say get them with valves installed. Not sure why you're asking about size of valves matching what you have.....getting heads with larger valves will give you the advantage of better flow in and out of the cylinder (what you are looking for). I put on a set of GT40-P heads a couple years ago and have been pleased with the added power from them. The $500 extra you mention for getting heads with valves almost covers the cost of a pair of these. They will need to have the bolt holes drilled out to 1/2" but most places will do that as part of the price if you let them know that you need them for a 351. Here's a link to one source for the heads:
http://www.tristatecylinderhead.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=40

Dino Don
11-28-2010, 09:39 PM
4600 is for a non HO engine. The HO 285 hp is rated at 4800rmp. The red line is auto set in your electronic ignition. It is like 5400 before it will bounce off of the limiter. We bounced another MC that I know of off the limiter when a friend decided to re prop his and went too small (his idea and his boat) and hitting the limiter was on accident.

5000rpm was off of my digital perfect pass stargazer guage. The factory needle guage has always been off about 200 rpm. The perfect pass is hooked up to the coil and is way more accurate than the factory guage. example the PP would read 5000 and guage would read 4800.

I have gone from a gt40 head to a gt40p head. The "P" head is a 302ci Explorer head. The only difference is the head bolt size so you have to have a machine shop or yourself drill the bolt holes in the head bigger to fit a 1/2 inch bolt. The combustion chamber is the same and both heads are 59cc heads. The only difference is that the "P" head has the spark plug location in the center of the combustion chamber where the standard gt40 head is angled. The "P" head is about 20 more horse power than the standard gt40 heads.

I am running a comp cam and if you need specs I can send them to you. I am having one made now and if you need the grind number I would be more than happy to give it to you. It is the factory lift and duration. I have not fooled with going bigger with the cam as I dont want to loose low end and I am not racing this boat.

I timed the engine to 10deg to 12deg BTDC depending on the angle. I probably will retard the timing slightly with this new engine that I am building. This is what will bump your timing up to runn the rpms. I also recall with the timing retarded the startup was not as easy this is why I advanced slightly.

I also ran 46 on GPS loaded down. I have a power slot and am running a 13.7X17.75 oj prop that is a 4 blade.

I hope this helps you.

By the way I deeply regret not touching the bottom end as you can see what has happened. Not knowing how many hours you have....You may want to think twice. I chose the quick rout and it has cost me a ton of money and a summer without a boat. All in all you only have about an hour ahead of you to pull the entire engine and tranny out and get the tranny off of the engine. Take it to a machine shop and have it looked at. On mine I believe a berring was worn and things started getting loose and I broke a rod cap senting parts everywhere.

You may just have to re ring it and put new rod and main berrings in it. I would be suprised if you had to resurface the crank or bore the block.

Just dont want what I am going through to happen to you. It sucks BAD!


Kyle just ran across this post and discussion. I would be interested in what factory spec's are for the cam and what the spec's are for the comp cam you had ground. I have a 87 Prostar with a 351W engine that I brought new, always been kept up and is in great shape. Years ago had engine issue bad casting as to the block had a pin hole in the casting in a cylinder wall and leaked water in when hot and piston was down not up when shut off. Just a few drops of water that caused a quick knock like a carbon knock but went away quickly. Pulled it and was lucky to find it and replaced the block. Put flat top pistons in, did minor port work on heads and balanced the rotating assy. Runs very smooth but RPM runs out 42-43 max with stock 3 blade prop. Boat has 1.1 Velvet drive running synth. fld.

Would like to increase power out of the hole we use the boat for handicap sking events for a re-hab hospital and for Wounded Warrior events this hiospital sponsors. Some of that adaptive equipment can be heavy pull stuff and I could use a little more HP and torque. I would think 300 hp is attainable w/o losing power but don't know???? Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks!!

Kyle
11-29-2010, 04:31 PM
Dino Don Pm sent