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MakeMineaS&S
08-07-2010, 01:16 AM
I was playing around with different line lengths the other day on the lake. I normally ski at full long-line (75') length. Open-water skier, so no need for shortening it.

Well, I tried 15-off and found myself at the tail end of some nasty rooster-tail. I didn't go in further, but I presume 22-off would be right in the middle of it.

The rooster was ugly. It was tall and big and quite unbecoming, IMHO, for a "tournament boat".

So how to get rid of it. The boat is a 1985 S&S, stock prop. Will a prop change fix it? The wake is otherwise soft, short and easy, but that damn rooster at 22ish-off is just not cool. I am planning on a OJ CNC prop this winter. Will that fix it?

Ideas?

cbryan70
08-07-2010, 01:40 AM
I was playing around with different line lengths the other day on the lake. I normally ski at full long-line (75') length. Open-water skier, so no need for shortening it.

Well, I tried 15-off and found myself at the tail end of some nasty rooster-tail. I didn't go in further, but I presume 22-off would be right in the middle of it.

The rooster was ugly. It was tall and big and quite unbecoming, IMHO, for a "tournament boat".

So how to get rid of it. The boat is a 1985 S&S, stock prop. Will a prop change fix it? The wake is otherwise soft, short and easy, but that damn rooster at 22ish-off is just not cool. I am planning on a OJ CNC prop this winter. Will that fix it?

Ideas?

the OJ will make it feel like a differrent boat but i dont think it will get ride of the tail....

kevkan
08-07-2010, 01:46 AM
I had an 85. Never messed with the prop, but I know the rooster tail. You didn't note what speed you ski. At 36 mph the wake is more rooster tail than anything. Its a great slalom wake, at any speed if you ask me. I've skied courses between 28 and 34 and open water at 36.

MakeMineaS&S
08-07-2010, 01:53 AM
I had an 85. Never messed with the prop, but I know the rooster tail. You didn't note what speed you ski. At 36 mph the wake is more rooster tail than anything. Its a great slalom wake, at any speed if you ask me. I've skied courses between 28 and 34 and open water at 36.

Tried it at 28-34. Still tall and ridiculous. Can't imagine 36 being better if 34 was so terrible. (I define "better" as "gone" because I've seen pictures here of "good wakes" and all of a sudden I realize how sh*t my wake is. Rooster like you won't imagine, and a section where the "inner parts" of the wake come together that are crap at any speed or line length.

Is this just what I get for running an older boat/hull? Do I need just "learn to deal with it", or can my S&S ever be made to throw a wake like this:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b80/p-r/P1010200.jpg

Low, flat, no tail, tiny edges.

BROUSSARD
08-07-2010, 02:07 AM
I had an 85. Never messed with the prop, but I know the rooster tail. You didn't note what speed you ski. At 36 mph the wake is more rooster tail than anything. Its a great slalom wake, at any speed if you ask me. I've skied courses between 28 and 34 and open water at 36.

Please post pics of your wake!

Tom Jones
08-07-2010, 07:35 AM
I would try playing around with various amounts of gas levels in the tank and weight distribution in the boat. My 1994 205 had the best wake with a 1/4 tank of gas while my 197 with a full size tower has the best wake with a full tank of gas. If I have more than 2 people in the passenger seat in my 205 &197 the wake gets bigger. My friend has a 1994 190 and it has a big rooster tail. One thing you can do is make sure you edge your ski thru the rooster tail and you won't notice it as much.

DooSPX
08-07-2010, 07:54 AM
all inboard ski boats have a bit of a rooster tail, but the weight of the boat/distribution and prop have an effect on it. Most who change props to a new CNC do notice that the bump is smaller/softer than before. Also, a powerslot boat will have a larger column because of the larger prop it turns.

TNH2oSkier
08-07-2010, 08:39 AM
A couple things you can do, try and get the rpm as close to 3000 or 2950 at 30mph. Which usually means adding cup to the blades. Add some weight in the bow, 50-100lbs- as far forward as you can get it and keep it secured.

Take out the back seat, and any other stuff in the boat you dont need on ski runs. The rooster tail has to come up somewhere, you can manipulate it a small amount.

DooSPX
08-07-2010, 08:49 AM
A couple things you can do, try and get the rpm as close to 3000 or 2950 at 30mph. Which usually means adding cup to the blades. Add some weight in the bow, 50-100lbs- as far forward as you can get it and keep it secured.

Take out the back seat, and any other stuff in the boat you dont need on ski runs. The rooster tail has to come up somewhere, you can manipulate it a small amount.

I also agree with this...
Get with Eric from OJ, I'm sure you have a 'slot so I am sure he would recommend getting a 13.7 x 17.5 4 blade OJ#454 prop. that is the exact prop I am getting soon.
the 454 prop comes standard with a .110 cup, should get your rpm's down to 3400 at 34 mph. I never go out with more than a half a tank, usually more like 1/4 tank of fuel and usually no back seat, no spotter, a 45lb tool box under the bow, a pair of combo skies, ropes and life jackets. I also relocated my battery to under the spotter seat (in 91 they ran them in the back by the tank for a few years).
Even my 91 slot it isnt that bad w/ the stock stainless 3 blade. I cannot wait to get the CNC #454.

DooSPX
08-07-2010, 08:52 AM
oops, double post.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

east tx skier
08-07-2010, 09:51 AM
My experience with weight in the nose of a newer boat were not wonderful. Wake and tracking seemed unchanged, but low speed handling and hole shot were sluggish. I think, on older boats especially, you are better off removing weight from the rear, i.e., back seat, less gas in the tank, than adding weight to the nose.

My experience going from a stock 13x13 oj on my 93 MC to a CNC'd prop was that the rooster tail flattened out a bit. It was a small improvement, but an improvement nonetheless.

keith3613
08-07-2010, 10:32 AM
I’ve had a 1984 Stars and Stripes since it was new. The hulls are the same. My boat has the same rooter tail. There’s nothing you can do about it. I think the best wake is at 28-off. Try 28-off, you may like it. If you are bouncing at 22-off then you’re flat skiing over the wake. You have to drop your outside shoulder and lean away from the boat to cut through the wake. If you lean hard enough, you’ll slice right through the wake with no bounce. The rooster tail comes forward at slower speeds and makes a great trick skiing wake. Remember, our boats are a 3-event boat. Try knee-boarding or trick skiing at 18 mph at 32-off. You’ll find the rooster tail makes a perfect ramp for jumping. Also, the rooster tail and wake overall is small at 36 mph. Back in the 80’s the manufacturers were thinking tournament not recreational skiing. You have a great boat. I wouldn’t take for mine. By the way, I used to ski with a guy with a 1982 Powerslot and it had 3 rooster tails.

MakeMineaS&S
08-07-2010, 01:45 PM
Thanks for all the advice. I posted this last night after being out drinking with friends, so perhaps my mind wasn't "all there", and I apologize if I offended.

However, my observations are real, and thanks for all who have contributed.

Keith,

I'll try those crossing techniques and shorter line lengths. Never trick skied, though the wake at 15-16 is huge, flat and sharp. Looks like an awesome ramp. Will have to try that.

I too wouldn't trade it for the world. Hence my handle. I LOVE this boat and if it ever goes away, I'll get another S&S.

Oh, and the boat isn't a 'Slot. 1:1 with the stock 13x13 prop. This winter it's getting GT-40P heads, Edelbrock performer manifold, EI conversion and a new prop. Should get me up to early-'90s 351 HO-spec, if not a little more. And the prop should make a nice improvement alone.

Y'all are right about how great it is to ski behind. At my lake, every time I've been out, I've noticed I'm the only one skiing behind a proper inboard DD "tournament towboat". Other skiers/boarders are all being towed by big bowrider I/Os. They do OK, (from my observations), but they look like they're working hard. This boat is easy to ski behind, more of a "dance partner" than "boxing opponent" as it were.

lanier92prostar
08-07-2010, 03:05 PM
Tried it at 28-34. Still tall and ridiculous. Can't imagine 36 being better if 34 was so terrible. (I define "better" as "gone" because I've seen pictures here of "good wakes" and all of a sudden I realize how sh*t my wake is. Rooster like you won't imagine, and a section where the "inner parts" of the wake come together that are crap at any speed or line length.

Is this just what I get for running an older boat/hull? Do I need just "learn to deal with it", or can my S&S ever be made to throw a wake like this:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b80/p-r/P1010200.jpg

Low, flat, no tail, tiny edges.

That looks like my wake :D

Bert
08-07-2010, 03:51 PM
That looks like my wake :D
Same as mine. If you want the best slalom wake ever get a 91 to 94 PS 190 hull. Lot's of other good ones but none sweeter than that. I have skied behind your SS hull and it is close.
Personally I don't think new is allways better.

east tx skier
08-07-2010, 08:09 PM
Same as mine. If you want the best slalom wake ever get a 91 to 94 PS 190 hull. Lot's of other good ones but none sweeter than that. I have skied behind your SS hull and it is close.
Personally I don't think new is allways better.

Phenomenal hull design for sure. Among the best.

Bert
08-07-2010, 08:25 PM
Phenomenal hull design for sure. Among the best.

Yes it is but there are a lot of good ones.....other brands as well;) I will likely be cursed for that one.
To put it in perspective I was skiing at a tourney once years ago where MC was the boat normally used at the location but for this event SN was being used. There was a lot of chatter about the "larger" wakes. I asked one of the other guys who was clearly one of the best there and running deeper than the rest of us how he felt about the different boat. His responce was he doesn't notice what he is skiing behind and that isn't what you should focus on, advice I listened to and and have applied since. When I get behind a BU, Supra, SN or whatever, if I am skiing well I don't notice wakes. I am keeping my 91 PS190 though:D

Jesus_Freak
08-09-2010, 12:32 PM
...Also, a powerslot boat will have a larger column because of the larger prop it turns.

Larger but turns more slowly. I am not sold on this one...:)

kawagaskier
08-09-2010, 12:56 PM
I know that rooster tail well... This pic is 15' off at 32mph, my '85 powerslot w/ a 14x20 4 blade prop. I have found though that if you don't look at the rooster tail, you won't even realize its there.

M-Funf
08-09-2010, 01:42 PM
I don't have much of a bump...stock everything...

60525

kawagaskier
08-09-2010, 02:12 PM
I don't have much of a bump...stock everything...

60525

Wow, thats really smooth. My rooster tail doesn't noticably change between the stock 3blade 14x18 and the 4blade 14x20.

DooSPX
08-09-2010, 10:14 PM
Larger but turns more slowly. I am not sold on this one...:)

Your the man I turn to to correct my novice statements or fill in my voids of the science! :D
Any updates on the work with OJ?

jconover
08-09-2010, 10:40 PM
Wake behind my PS190/454HO before the new prop. (Prop in picture is 14x20 3-blade)

Jesus_Freak
08-11-2010, 01:01 PM
Your the man I turn to to correct my novice statements or fill in my voids of the science! :D
Any updates on the work with OJ?

Thanks for asking. Nothing to report yet...

jconover
08-12-2010, 01:22 AM
OJ 4-blade 14x20. Rooster tail is a bit smaller, and quite a bit softer. Now I really notice the two humps from the sides of the boat.

PS. Thanks Chris for towing me in with your Barefoot 200 when I ran the gas guzzling beast of out of fuel on Tuesday night. DOH!

PPS Apparently I need to get a new sending unit, because 1/4 tank = EMPTY. dead empty. not even fumes.

MakeMineaS&S
08-12-2010, 03:45 PM
OK, finally remembered to bring the camera today. Some wake shots.

The tail at the bottom of the picture is coming right off the swim step. I presume that's right off the prop, and would perhaps be flattened by a different prop.

The one further up, right where the wakes kind of converge is the tall one. Starts at 15 off, right in it at 22 off, and would likely be out of it at 28 off, (haven't went that short yet).

It's about 18-24" tall, which is pretty tall, IMHO, and it's kinda hard. Crossing is OK, but a little "jumpy".

Pics at 32, but same shape and pretty much same size from 28-36, regardless of fuel load. Pics are with 3/4 tank indicated. Stock 13x13 prop.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b80/p-r/Boat/DSC00584.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b80/p-r/Boat/DSC00585.jpg

shepherd
08-12-2010, 04:03 PM
I've never skied behind your boat, but this is my "uneducated" opinion. The bump you are feeling is from the wake and not the rooster tail which is flying up over it. I think if you get a new ski ( ;) ) and work on perfecting your wake-crossing body position as Keith suggested, the tail wouldn't bother you as much IMO.

MakeMineaS&S
08-12-2010, 04:06 PM
I've never skied behind your boat, but this is my "uneducated" opinion. The bump you are feeling is from the wake and not the rooster tail which is flying up over it. I think if you get a new ski ( ;) ) and work on perfecting your wake-crossing body position as Keith suggested, the tail wouldn't bother you as much IMO.

I think you're correct. The ski I've got doesn't really like to hold an edge, so I tend to flat-cross the wake. No problems, but unless I flex my legs just right, it's quite bouncy and I catch some air.

Sometimes, quite a bit of air, and the landings, errr...crashes are spectacular.

Oh well, new to slaloming, so it's just more time on the water, which I am HAPPY to put in.

And you're right, a new ski would probably help me a LOT. :D

jconover
08-12-2010, 04:11 PM
Is that directed at me? That's a 67 O'Brien Siege with dual high wrap bindings - it is "intermediate" class and I love it - it rolls on edge gracefully, but holds tightly as you make the cut. I'm always open for other ski recommendations, but a good ski is a good chunk of $$$, which i've spent a lot of on boat/fixes this summer.

I agree, the bumps are absolutely the wake i'm feeling. Prior to switching props, I could definitely feel the "tail". It is very soft now. Honestly, it was very soft before too.

I need to overcome my "fear" of the wake. On my previous (outboard) boat, I had mastered this - I could cross the wake at a very comfortable angle and absorb the bit of bump with my knees.

Behind this boat, when I hit the wake, I can clearly feel it drop down an inch or so, then come up sharply about two. It's really a sharp, but small, wake. It is very interesting how clearly i can feel it as I cut through. I know I can safely ignore it, but my brain forces my body to let off the angle coming across and take the wake less aggressively. I can clearly feel a bit of separation from the wake as I cross - not airborne, but definitely some bit of lift as I hit that little hump.

MakeMineaS&S
08-12-2010, 04:28 PM
Is that directed at me? That's a 67 O'Brien Siege with dual high wrap bindings - it is "intermediate" class and I love it - it rolls on edge gracefully, but holds tightly as you make the cut. I'm always open for other ski recommendations, but a good ski is a good chunk of $$$, which i've spent a lot of on boat/fixes this summer.


Naw, it was directed at me. I just bought the Radar he had for sale. :cool:

It should be here this weekend or early next week. Yeah, I'm excited. :D

Right now I'm on the "combo half" of an O'Brien Celebrity set and it is wide, stable, but doesn't really like to grab an edge, and it prefers very slow, easy turns to anything even remotely quick.

MakeMineaS&S
08-12-2010, 04:30 PM
I agree, the bumps are absolutely the wake i'm feeling. Prior to switching props, I could definitely feel the "tail". It is very soft now. Honestly, it was very soft before too.

I need to overcome my "fear" of the wake. On my previous (outboard) boat, I had mastered this - I could cross the wake at a very comfortable angle and absorb the bit of bump with my knees.

Behind this boat, when I hit the wake, I can clearly feel it drop down an inch or so, then come up sharply about two. It's really a sharp, but small, wake. It is very interesting how clearly i can feel it as I cut through. I know I can safely ignore it, but my brain forces my body to let off the angle coming across and take the wake less aggressively. I can clearly feel a bit of separation from the wake as I cross - not airborne, but definitely some bit of lift as I hit that little hump.

Spent all morning out, and I agree. I think it is the wake. The edge is "hard", but you're right, 90 percent of it is half mental, so I start overthinking it and my brain winds up messing up my legs.

It's like my legs know what they want to do if I just let 'em do it. Had some very nice crossings today. But then I had a few that were totally disastrous and I think it was because I was trying to overthink it.

I should "do it" and not "think it". How's that for some Zen? :D

jconover
08-12-2010, 04:39 PM
Totally zen. I still find it remarkable what a difference there is in wake on this boat. It is tiny, but noticibly harder than my old outboard. I tend to want to compensate for it.

east tx skier
08-12-2010, 08:12 PM
Yes it is but there are a lot of good ones.....other brands as well;) I will likely be cursed for that one.
To put it in perspective I was skiing at a tourney once years ago where MC was the boat normally used at the location but for this event SN was being used. There was a lot of chatter about the "larger" wakes. I asked one of the other guys who was clearly one of the best there and running deeper than the rest of us how he felt about the different boat. His responce was he doesn't notice what he is skiing behind and that isn't what you should focus on, advice I listened to and and have applied since. When I get behind a BU, Supra, SN or whatever, if I am skiing well I don't notice wakes. I am keeping my 91 PS190 though:D

Good Point. Although I have pulled hard like there's nothing there and ended up airborne as a result of reality ;)

M-Funf
08-13-2010, 10:52 AM
Naw, it was directed at me. I just bought the Radar he had for sale. :cool:

It should be here this weekend or early next week. Yeah, I'm excited. :D

Right now I'm on the "combo half" of an O'Brien Celebrity set and it is wide, stable, but doesn't really like to grab an edge, and it prefers very slow, easy turns to anything even remotely quick.

What Radar setup are you skiing?