View Full Version : 2005 197 Won't Start
jtank
07-03-2005, 11:11 AM
It ran for 3 minutes then shut off. It gave an error message on the LCD of "ECM". Also, none of the gauges work, but the blower and radio work etc. I have check all electrical conections and nothing ! Does anybody have any ideas so I can get it running for the 4th ?
jfletch x7
07-03-2005, 11:34 AM
I had a similar problem with my 2003 x7. It turned out to be a defective kill switch.
jtank
07-03-2005, 11:37 AM
Is it possible to by pass it ?
jfletch x7
07-03-2005, 11:39 AM
You can disconnect the switch behind the panel and try installing a jump across the pins.
jtank
07-03-2005, 01:05 PM
Didn't work, it still shows ECU!!!!!!!!!!
jrbrown
07-03-2005, 01:20 PM
You need to check the circuit breaker and 3 fuses. They are located at the back of the engine near each other. The CB is a 50 amp and the fuses are in a holder. Pop the cap of the holder and there are probably three in there (fuel pump, injectors and EFI).
If the engine won't crank then the CB is the potential.
I'm just guessing, but if the EFI fuse is blown then you might get the ECU notice in the console.
Good luck. Heck of a time on a long weekend to have this happen.
jtank
07-03-2005, 01:26 PM
The engine will turn over, and I have tried a reset. When you say pop the cap, are they located inside the plastic deals that snap into the back panel behind the engine (MCX).
jrbrown
07-03-2005, 01:43 PM
I'm getting ready to go out and I'll look. I too have an MCX. Do you have your engine manual? If not go to http://www.indmar.com/support/manual_download.cfm and download the manual. You'll find the pages talking about the CB and the fuses.
jrbrown
07-03-2005, 02:12 PM
I've attached a picture of where the fuse holder is. You'll need to remove the cover (just the two thumb screws). Once you get it off orientate the picture and you'll see that the fuse holder is behind the cover. Since I have a V-Drive I had to feel my way around but the the retainer location is a give away.
Sure hope it is this simple.
Also, to those who care. i've just walked away from this with a new add to my boating "just n' case" pack out. Those darn tiny fuses.
jtank
07-03-2005, 11:43 PM
Thanks, I looked and all three fuzes are good. The Craft let me down and out ! Very disapointed in the 05 197 so far ! It has been in the shop four times already for similar issues.
jrbrown
07-04-2005, 08:32 AM
not sure if lemon laws apply to boats in your state, but either way, sounds like MC need to send out an expert and loan you a boat until resolved. good luck
bigmac
07-04-2005, 11:06 AM
Did the dealer replace the ECM on any of your previous visits? That would certainly seem to be a suspiciously logical issue in this case...
You need to find out if your dealer has sent the tech(s) to training classes. Any time a boat has to go in for the same thing 4 times and it's not resloved, I suspect the knowledge base. MC needs to get a phone call about this one, especially if the tech(s) haven't been sent to class.
To be fair, there are some things that are hard to diagnose but most are fairly easy to find if the proper steps are taken, in the right order.
If your gauges move when the key is turned on, the kill switch should be good. If the switch is flakey, it may be intermittent. Assuming the switch is good, turn the key to the ON position and listen for a buzzing sound(make sure the fuel tank is partially exposed) and a click from the motor area(this is the fuel pump relay). If you hear nothing, there may be a bad ground or something more major. Try opening the throttle just a bit before you crank it. If you can, check the fuel pressure and, while I know it sounds condescending, make sure the tank has gas in it. It wouldn't be the first time this was the cause.
bigmac
07-04-2005, 12:17 PM
It ran for 3 minutes then shut off. It gave an error message on the LCD of "ECM". Also, none of the gauges work, but the blower and radio work etc. I have check all electrical conections and nothing ! Does anybody have any ideas so I can get it running for the 4th ?
My boat had 8 hours on it when the fuel pump crapped out. It was running normally, then progressively began demonstrating RPM sagging, then just stopped running althogether. However, all the elecrical systems were working normally, gauges worked fine, and there was no fault display in the tach LCD.
The reason I'd suspect ECM is that "ECM" was displayed in the LCD, and the fact that your gauges weren't working while everything else was. I believe that in newer MC's gauges are all servo-controlled and therefore routed through the ECM.
In my case, the 4th was saved by a great dealer. He called in one of his service techs yesterday (on a Sunday) and pulled a new fuel pump out of a new MC on the floor to replace mine. It's working great now.
-
If there's a black box under the dash, the gauges are controlled by that, not the motor ECM. There may be some tie-in, but if the motor is throttle-by-wire, that's controlled by the motor ECM, too.
Knowing now that the gauges are out, it sounds more like the safety switch has a problem, and there was a parts issue in the last year, or so.
Since the boat is under warranty, don't go cutting wires and splicing them together. Press the lanyard in and try to start it. If you turn the key to ON, press the lanyard and see the gauges move, you know it's the switch that's causing this.
bigmac
07-04-2005, 02:21 PM
If there's a black box under the dash, the gauges are controlled by that, not the motor ECM. There may be some tie-in, but if the motor is throttle-by-wire, that's controlled by the motor ECM, too.
Knowing now that the gauges are out, it sounds more like the safety switch has a problem, and there was a parts issue in the last year, or so.
Since the boat is under warranty, don't go cutting wires and splicing them together. Press the lanyard in and try to start it. If you turn the key to ON, press the lanyard and see the gauges move, you know it's the switch that's causing this.
If that's the case, bypassing the safety switch ought to be a simple thing to try.
So, what does it mean when the tach LCD flashes "ECM"? I just disconnected my safety switch and that message doesn't happen.
If the ECM indicator goes away when the lanyard is removed, it sounds like the switch is OK. There could still be loose grounds, too. I don't know the MCX as well as the LT-1, LTR and TBI, but the principles are basically the same. Look for a harness going to a sensor where the distributor normally is, making sure it's plugged in fully.
The best thing to do is have the dealer hook it up to their diagnostic computer and see what's going on. If they can't or won't, call MC and let them know about this situation.
jtank
07-04-2005, 10:35 PM
Thanks, I tried it all and it still shows "ECM" ? I did get a hold of a tech in Seattle and he said that they will need to hookup the computer to it. Again, disapointed in MC as there are alot of issues with the 05, (hissing in the flame arrestor, perfect pass and the throttle by wire. I am learning that with MC you need to by used or carry over so they can work the bugs out !
If by hissing, you mean a whistle when increasing throttle, it's not a new sound. As for PP issues, any other boat using PP will have the same ones. I suspect that the problems with throttle by wire have to do with the tech's ability to trouble shoot, since MC didn't want to put it out there till it was reliable, which is the reason it has not ony one, but two fail-safes before defaulting to idle.
FYI for everyone- nobody makes a boat that's ready to go at the time of delivery. Period. They all need setup and testing, just like cars and trucks. The dealer's ability to do this completely and correctly may be the issue now. I really hope this can be rectified soon, but as I have said before, MC isn't the only boat builder that has these problems. We won't necessarily see them here unless people switch to MC from the others, but they are definitley out there and at least as annoying.
jrbrown
07-05-2005, 07:17 AM
FYI for everyone- nobody makes a boat that's ready to go at the time of delivery. Period. They all need setup and testing, just like cars and trucks. The dealer's ability to do this completely and correctly may be the issue now. I really hope this can be rectified soon, but as I have said before, MC isn't the only boat builder that has these problems. We won't necessarily see them here unless people switch to MC from the others, but they are definitley out there and at least as annoying.
JimN,
MC should be the exception with "these problems", not the norm as you suggest. At the price points these boats sell at, there should be few problems related to manufacturing, design and setup. It's about quality control and design. When I installed my PerfectPass last month I was very disappointed in the wiring harness under the dash. Too many wire bundles with no slack, unbundled wires, etc. Was this a design, manufacturing or quality issue? The vast majority of problems that we should be seeing should be "infant mortality" problems. I could go on, but my point's been made and there are manufacturers who can build electro-mechanical systems that are very reliable for a very long time.
Thanks for being a moderator. It's appreciated.
S,
J.R.
JimN,
MC should be the exception with "these problems", not the norm as you suggest. At the price points these boats sell at, there should be few problems related to manufacturing, design and setup. It's about quality control and design. When I installed my PerfectPass last month I was very disappointed in the wiring harness under the dash. Too many wire bundles with no slack, unbundled wires, etc. Was this a design, manufacturing or quality issue? The vast majority of problems that we should be seeing should be "infant mortality" problems. I could go on, but my point's been made and there are manufacturers who can build electro-mechanical systems that are very reliable for a very long time.
Thanks for being a moderator. It's appreciated.
S,
J.R.
JR, just curious is yours a DBW MCX? I know they were leary of do it yourself installs of DBW Perfect Pass.
jtank
07-05-2005, 01:57 PM
Jim,
Thanks for your help in trying to get me out of a bind this past weekend. However, I disagree with your statement that," nobody makes a boat the is ready to go at the time of delivery". I hope that management within MC views that differently as I bought a MC because MC is "Held to a Higher Standard" and I believed that they are not like every other boat company. If every boat was the same, I would have bought a much cheaper brand for half the price. At $50,000 for a ski boat I would think that every MC owner out there would feel the same way, thats why MC is the Best and should demand the Best and no less ! The boat is currently in the shop and I should hopefully find out the issue later today.
Thanks,
Jim,
Thanks for your help in trying to get me out of a bind this past weekend. However, I disagree with your statement that," nobody makes a boat the is ready to go at the time of delivery". I hope that management within MC views that differently as I bought a MC because MC is "Held to a Higher Standard" and I believed that they are not like every other boat company. If every boat was the same, I would have bought a much cheaper brand for half the price. At $50,000 for a ski boat I would think that every MC owner out there would feel the same way, thats why MC is the Best and should demand the Best and no less ! The boat is currently in the shop and I should hopefully find out the issue later today.
Thanks,
Keep us posted.
I think what jimn was saying is don't forget the dealer factor.
Ultimately you are correct in expecting the higher standard to be upheld before, during and after the sale since dealers are part of the equation.
Diesel
07-05-2005, 03:10 PM
Jim,
Thanks for your help in trying to get me out of a bind this past weekend. However, I disagree with your statement that," nobody makes a boat the is ready to go at the time of delivery". I hope that management within MC views that differently as I bought a MC because MC is "Held to a Higher Standard" and I believed that they are not like every other boat company. If every boat was the same, I would have bought a much cheaper brand for half the price. At $50,000 for a ski boat I would think that every MC owner out there would feel the same way, that's why MC is the Best and should demand the Best and no less ! The boat is currently in the shop and I should hopefully find out the issue later today.
Thanks,
MC should be reminded of this everyday. There are plenty of other options and they are demanding we consumers pay higher prices for a premium product, so their marketing says. We had better see a return on that investment over the life of the boat. It can be in the form of resale value, quality, ride, customer service, etc.......... but if they fail to go above and beyond expectations the "perceived value" of their product is compromised. As a result, realized value will suffer and consumers will eventually go elsewhere.
There are plenty of posts from unhappy owners, plenty of posts from very satisfied owners, and many posts of where MC went above and beyond the call to make sure customers are happy. Hopefully they will continue to stand behind their products like they have in the past and that they never forget the reason we consumers continue to pay the higher prices. If they want us to pay more we are going to expect more from the entire experience, and rightfully so.............. :)
jrbrown
07-05-2005, 05:39 PM
JR, just curious is yours a DBW MCX? I know they were leary of do it yourself installs of DBW Perfect Pass.
Ric and couple of questions:
- who is "they"
- I'm only a one year old MC owner, but a lifetime admirer. What is a "DBW MCX"? My boat is a 2004 210VRS with the MCX optioned motor.
Regarding my install, I guarantee you that I did a better install than at least two dealers because I've looked at two different dealer installed WakeBoard Pro installs. I'm not impressed. But to be fair, I can be very particular and sometimes to a fault. I used to rig new boats at a dealer and I learned a lot about the trade and craft.
Ric and couple of questions:
- who is "they"
- I'm only a one year old MC owner, but a lifetime admirer. What is a "DBW MCX"? My boat is a 2004 210VRS with the MCX optioned motor.
Regarding my install, I guarantee you that I did a better install than at least two dealers because I've looked at two different dealer installed WakeBoard Pro installs. I'm not impressed. But to be fair, I can be very particular and sometimes to a fault. I used to rig new boats at a dealer and I learned a lot about the trade and craft.
Well "they" is Perfect Pass and DBW is drive by wire or what I call Throttle by Wire
If yours was DBW, you'd have no throttle cable on the boat and your PP box would say DBW in big letters and there would of course, be no physical throttle cable to a butterfly on the MCX intake. The DBW version of the MCX has a servo motor on the intake body which directly opens and closes the butterfly controlled from the ecm of the boat "by wire"(no PP servo motor or throttle cable whatsoever).
Believe me, you'd know if yours was DBW since you did your own install.
I know what you mean about installs as I did my own Digital Pro install on an LTR and was prepared to do the DBW install (thinking it would be much much easier since there's no cable and the boat already has a paddlewheel) when the dealer offered to do it for me to avoid any "issues".
I think the ECM on the motor must be flashed for perfect pass on a DBW setup and quite possibly more installation issues I'm not aware of.
Most importantly, I believe tanks boat to be DBW and it's why I asked about yours since his is having "issues".
jtank
07-05-2005, 06:07 PM
I called to check on the boat and they told me the ECM board will not allow the computer to talk to it. Why this happened they do not know ! All they can tell me is that it the part is a $1000.00 and they need an approval from "Kuppers" at MC in order to ship it. Get this, they ship it by ground!!! Jim, you can't tell me that MC does'nt play a big part in this ! Again, extremely disapointed all the way around in a 2005 197 with 40 hours on it, this is not the MC that I have read about and certainly puts up major red flags !!
I called to check on the boat and they told me the ECM board will not allow the computer to talk to it. Why this happened they do not know ! All they can tell me is that it the part is a $1000.00 and they need an approval from "Kuppers" at MC in order to ship it. Get this, they ship it by ground!!! Jim, you can't tell me that MC does'nt play a big part in this ! Again, extremely disapointed all the way around in a 2005 197 with 40 hours on it, this is not the MC that I have read about and certainly puts up major red flags !!
hey I own a 2005 197 as well so I'm VERY concerned with your problems
fyi Rodltg said that MC is closed today for inventory but you may have to get stern regarding waiting a week for an ECM.
Ground shipping??? time to raise hell I think
Keep us posted
!
jrbrown
07-05-2005, 09:24 PM
Ric,
DBW -Drive By Wire. Not in my 2004. Got it in one of my vehicles.
jtank,
Sure hope that the ground time is one day. If not, you can always tell them tomorrow to ship a second one overnight and it would arrive Thursday in time to save the weekend.
Another thought comes to mind. MC home office should seriously consider offering you a one year extension on your warranty. The automotive industry (manufacturer's) use it to build brand loyalty and to compensate the customer for their trouble and loss of confidence. You've lost a good number of ski days I suspect and your season is probably not 12 months long.
Diesel
07-06-2005, 09:31 AM
I called to check on the boat and they told me the ECM board will not allow the computer to talk to it. Why this happened they do not know ! All they can tell me is that it the part is a $1000.00 and they need an approval from "Kuppers" at MC in order to ship it. Get this, they ship it by ground!!! Jim, you can't tell me that MC does'nt play a big part in this ! Again, extremely disapointed all the way around in a 2005 197 with 40 hours on it, this is not the MC that I have read about and certainly puts up major red flags !!
The 05 PP install is a complete plug and play system and is very easy to install by the owner. A speedometer has to be replaced, the control box mounted, and the PP harness plugged into the factory harness.........that's all it takes for the hardware. The ECM will have to reflashed by the dealer with the appropriate software. It is my understanding there were some early ECMs that were not capable of the reflash and they must be exchanged. I would think the least MC could do is overnight an ECM to you to get you back on the water.
Good luck ;)
jtank
07-06-2005, 04:28 PM
I'am happy to report that MC is going to over night the ECM so it is here tomorrow. I will give an update tomorrow night on the status.
mitch
07-06-2005, 04:36 PM
Good luck Tank, hope that solves it.
Ric,
DBW -Drive By Wire. Not in my 2004. Got it in one of my vehicles.
jtank,
Sure hope that the ground time is one day. If not, you can always tell them tomorrow to ship a second one overnight and it would arrive Thursday in time to save the weekend.
Another thought comes to mind. MC home office should seriously consider offering you a one year extension on your warranty. The automotive industry (manufacturer's) use it to build brand loyalty and to compensate the customer for their trouble and loss of confidence. You've lost a good number of ski days I suspect and your season is probably not 12 months long.
Yes tank's setup is quite different than yours and it may be that Perfect pass is not agreeing with the ecm. I hear that there's a different chip if your dbw perfect pass is acting up on your mcx.
.
Tank, good to hear they are acting quickly to get the suspect parts replaced. Let us know what happens next man!
Diesel
07-07-2005, 10:31 AM
Yes tank's setup is quite different than yours and it may be that Perfect pass is not agreeing with the ecm. I hear that there's a different chip if your dbw perfect pass is acting up on your mcx.
.
Tank, good to hear they are acting quickly to get the suspect parts replaced. Let us know what happens next man!
Yes, Perfect Pass has a new 7 series chip which they sent me last week. I has additional parameters that help compensate for heavily weighted boats and low speeds with the DBW systems only.
I was told MC should be sending a bulliten soon for all affected 05 PP owners.
I'am happy to report that MC is going to over night the ECM so it is here tomorrow. I will give an update tomorrow night on the status.
Tank
What's the word?
:steering:
Yes, Perfect Pass has a new 7 series chip which they sent me last week. I has additional parameters that help compensate for heavily weighted boats and low speeds with the DBW systems only.
We are now on version 11...and still testing. :o
Diesel
07-13-2005, 11:20 AM
We are now on version 11...and still testing. :o
Honestly, even with the 7 series chip I do not think mine is fixed either. I have not spent enough time tweaking the CS but I have a vactaion planned next week and I will give you my complete opinion after I have has some drive time.
Last weekend we got it dialed in fairly close but it was just my wife and daughter with factory ballast. Still no where near as consistent and precise as the old systems. Speeds under 20mph (of course when my wife is boarding!) seem to cause the most problems and the system can actually become quite violent.
Time will tell..............