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oldbluetruck
05-27-2010, 09:55 AM
I found a very rough boat that I think would be a great project for me and my two teenage sons. It was last registered in 2002 and it appears to have been practically full of water for several years. The drain was plugged with leaves so I was able to drain the hull but the engine had been under water up to the head. Matter of fact, somone had removed the spark plugs and water was in the back two cylinders! Anyway, went back and climbed into the now dry boat and the floor seems solid. The hull number is MBCSAEBOB585. Is this an all fiberglass / aluminum boat? Do the last two digits refer to 1985? The upholstry is toast. Most of it has . Only small amounts of foam left in a few places. I'm sure everything is totaled (steering, throttle, gauges, gearbox, engine, etc.). The windshield looks good. If the hull is still good, is it worth rebuilding? The bottom looks good and I love this model boat. Any idea how hard it is to get parts? How expensive, etc? Can the fuel tank be replaced? Thanks for the help!

06197ttlq9-footer
05-27-2010, 10:05 AM
Wow! how much free time do you have!?!

It is an 1985.

MCVOLS
05-27-2010, 10:23 AM
Lots of info here on re-builds, and lots of guys in the process currently, so you can get all the info you need on this site. as stated, it is an '85 so yes, it is all fiberglass (no wood stringers). Post up some more pics if you have 'em, we really like pictures.

In my opionion, all S&S boats are worth rebuilding, if you have the time, money, and know-how.

87MCProstar
05-27-2010, 10:25 AM
Ouch, it still amazes me how many people with let their boats get into this condition. If you don't use it and it just sits get rid of it to someone who will take care of it.

I think footer asked the perfect question...how much time do you have?? if you have plenty of time and skills both in fiberglass repair and mechanical you should be good to go.

thatsmrmastercraft
05-27-2010, 11:11 AM
Everything is available to put that back together if you choose. Replacing the engine and trans. will be a few bucks. Its a reverse rotation engine so they aren't as simple as throwing an automotive engine in.

I would think you can get your hands on this pretty cheap. Plan on replacing trailer springs too. After sitting so long with that much water weight they are sure to be shot.

Sounds like a fun project. Would like to see more pictures.

At least its clean water in the boat.:D

83SuperSlot
05-27-2010, 11:19 AM
It is definitely a good project. I would definitely get the engine and tranny looked at and priced out before you start to make sure it's worth it to you. If so, I will say that every drop of work I have put into mine has been worth it... with a few of you it should go pretty quick. Good luck! Post some more pics.. :popcorn:

jmcentire
05-27-2010, 11:51 AM
Its a reverse rotation engine so they aren't as simple as throwing an automotive engine in.

Are you sure about this...I thought nautiques were the only ones that used reverse rotation engines. I used to have an 85 S&S and I'm pretty sure it was a left hand rotation, although still can't just drop an auto engine in.

Anyway, like I said I had an 85 S&S, it is a great boat and very easy to work on...should be a great project!

Jim@BAWS
05-27-2010, 12:17 PM
Everthing to make that motor run is still available

If ya need anything let us know

www.BAYAREAWATERSPORTS.com

Rebuild that TRANNY ASAP along with turning the motor over and getting an OIL CHANGE ASAP
Replace the impeller

Jim@BAWS

ski_king
05-27-2010, 12:43 PM
Post a picture of the outside of the boat.

I would figure the price of a short block. The starter will need replaced and the transmission will need to be rebuilt as well. That era of boats had a history of getting water trapped in the floor foam. It is a pretty good bet water is trapped in that one. There are some threads on here describing the repair of the floor.

oxberger
05-27-2010, 01:06 PM
It'll be a great project. I have an '85 myself that I'm slowly restoring. AmericanskierJim is in the process of finishing up his resto. meadracing is in the middle of his. That boat is well worth restoring. We definately need more pics to help you out.:D What color is it and where in the south are you? I'm in Murfreesboro TN. Welcome to the board!

oxberger
05-27-2010, 01:09 PM
Regarding the gas tank question... I have tried to replace my plastic one for years and have been unsuccessful and since it's plastic none of the radiator shops will touch it. Mine is really bad off, I have varnish in mine. I have it out to a guy right now that does concrete cleaning. He's either going to finally get it clean for me or destroy it trying. I've been quoted upwards of $500 to have a replacement made.

jakethebt
05-27-2010, 01:17 PM
Well one thing is for sure, you must not have any hull or exhaust leaks!

06197ttlq9-footer
05-27-2010, 01:57 PM
Well one thing is for sure, you must not have any hull or exhaust leaks!

Yep, very little oil at all in that water....Leads me to believe that motor and trans may be savable.

glassmaster
05-27-2010, 03:21 PM
I'm sure everything is totaled (steering, throttle, gauges, gearbox, engine, etc.).

After draining the water from the boat, drain the oil from the motor. If there is gallons of water in the oil then you can bet it will need to be rebuilt. If there is less than a cup full of water you might be ok and you could get away with cleaning up the heads and valves and possibly sleeving a cylinder if the rust pits are to deep.
As far as the trany/gearbox same thing it is a sealed unit if there is a little water in it you may be ok, but if it is a lot chances are a rebuild is in your future.
I to started with a severely neglected waterlogged boat. Mine was underwater up to the heads and the tranny was completely underwater for a long time.
My motor was seized and after spraying PB Blaster in the spark plug holes and letting is soak it loosened up. Oil change, converted distributor, new starter, and some good gas and she fired right up. I let it run and the lifters pumped right up and after a couple of times of getting it close to overheating the rings all seated.
I rebuilt the carb and changed the tranny fluid to get approx a 1/2 cup of water out 4 times after short operation of 5 min or less in gear and now I got a very strong running boat and tranny.
For how long? Who knows, but I only replaced a few minor things and didn't have to have anything rebuilt other than the carb.
It may not be as bad as you think.
PM me if I can help you
Good luck

broncotw
05-27-2010, 03:21 PM
Oxberger:

I had the same EXACT problem with my 86 S&S... Varnish in the tank.....

I used 2 gallons of "Goof Off" for plastics that I purchased from Home Depot.....

I removed the tank from the boat and emptied it.... I removed the fuel sending unit assembly....

I filled the tank with the 2 gallons of Goof Off and let it sit for a full week (rotating the tank occasionally so the chemical could reach all the varnished parts of the tank).

I then took the tank to a car wash with a high pressure sprayer where I used appx. $20.00 in quarters and subjected the interior of the tank to repeated high pressure sprayings.....

The tank came out looking brand new.....

Ted

glassmaster
05-27-2010, 03:28 PM
Everything is available to put that back together if you choose. Replacing the engine and trans. will be a few bucks. Its a reverse rotation engine so they aren't as simple as throwing an automotive engine in.

I would think you can get your hands on this pretty cheap. Plan on replacing trailer springs too. After sitting so long with that much water weight they are sure to be shot.

Sounds like a fun project. Would like to see more pictures.

At least its clean water in the boat.:D

Couldn't you use a car motor if you changed the starter, cam and the distributor gear and run the firing order backwards?

If not what is the difference in a Right rotation and left rotation? :rolleyes:

thatsmrmastercraft
05-27-2010, 03:32 PM
That would do it with the exception of a different cam (automotive probably too tame) and a marine water pump, brass frost plugs.........I think thats it.

glassmaster
05-27-2010, 05:44 PM
That would do it with the exception of a different cam (automotive probably too tame) and a marine water pump, brass frost plugs.........I think thats it.

That's about what I was thinking. Worse case he could reuse the cam and get a new pump and freeze plugs.

dmminfla
05-27-2010, 06:30 PM
Couldn't you use a car motor if you changed the starter, cam and the distributor gear and run the firing order backwards?

If not what is the difference in a Right rotation and left rotation? :rolleyes:


The 351 ford in the Mastercraft's is a not a reverse rotation engine it is a normal left hand rotation motor. Like a previous post the CC's use a reverse right hand rotation motor.

Jerseydave
05-27-2010, 08:43 PM
Even though you're in the south, don't be surprised if that engine block is cracked from lack of winterization and/or water intrusion some 8 years ago. You may be looking at buying a long block with no credit for the core. Trans under water will likely need to be taken apart and rebuilt as well.

You may hit $10K easy with an engine, trans rebuild and whole interior replacement plus all the other stuff you may need. IMHO I wouldn't pay more than $1K-$2K for that boat.

bkhallpass
05-28-2010, 12:06 PM
If you have the time and know-how, a project like this would be great for teeenage sons. I've been around boats for all of my 46 years, and I have learned more about their construction, and how they work by tearing one down to a bare hull, than I did in all my previous years of experience. Your son's will get real life experience in carpentry, engine mechanics, upholstery, fiberglass (perhaps) etc. They'll also learn how the ventilation systems, wiring, stearing, tracking fins, etc. are constructed and operate. You may well put more money into the boat than it's worth, but you can't put a dollar value on the learning experience and time spent with your sons.


Post a picture of the outside of the boat.
That era of boats had a history of getting water trapped in the floor foam. It is a pretty good bet water is trapped in that one. There are some threads on here describing the repair of the floor.

This is a very good point. A lot of people believe that because the stringer system was fiberglass and composites (MC started composite stringers in 83 or 84), there is nothing to worry about below the floor. Not true. If water gets into the flotation foam, the foam will eventually soak it up. It can add several hundred pounds in weight. Also, frequently dryer vent hose was used for the ventilation system. This rots over time. When you take water over the bow, it goes into the vent hose, and then seeps into the foam. Have also seen cases where saturated foam freezes during the winter, expands, and causes floor separation, or cracking in the fiberglass and gelcoat. One last thing to think about if you do the project, if you should have failure where the platform brackets mount to the stern, it is a PITA to repair. You have to remove part of the floor to get to the repairs. A guy named sporty had this issue on this forum. If you are going to pull the floor, you might want to think about leaving the back 6 or eight inches of the flooring out (sealed off of course) so that you can access the transom if necessary. I am currently doing this on my project boat.

I wouldn't pay more than a few hundred dollars at most. I bought my project for 1500 with a tandem trailer, and an engine and transmission in operating condition.

BKH

83SuperSlot
05-28-2010, 02:21 PM
If you have the time and know-how, a project like this would be great for teeenage sons. I've been around boats for all of my 46 years, and I have learned more about their construction, and how they work by tearing one down to a bare hull, than I did in all my previous years of experience. Your son's will get real life experience in carpentry, engine mechanics, upholstery, fiberglass (perhaps) etc. They'll also learn how the ventilation systems, wiring, stearing, tracking fins, etc. are constructed and operate. You may well put more money into the boat than it's worth, but you can't put a dollar value on the learning experience and time spent with your sons.




This is a very good point. A lot of people believe that because the stringer system was fiberglass and composites (MC started composite stringers in 83 or 84), there is nothing to worry about below the floor. Not true. If water gets into the flotation foam, the foam will eventually soak it up. It can add several hundred pounds in weight. Also, frequently dryer vent hose was used for the ventilation system. This rots over time. When you take water over the bow, it goes into the vent hose, and then seeps into the foam. Have also seen cases where saturated foam freezes during the winter, expands, and causes floor separation, or cracking in the fiberglass and gelcoat. One last thing to think about if you do the project, if you should have failure where the platform brackets mount to the stern, it is a PITA to repair. You have to remove part of the floor to get to the repairs. A guy named sporty had this issue on this forum. If you are going to pull the floor, you might want to think about leaving the back 6 or eight inches of the flooring out (sealed off of course) so that you can access the transom if necessary. I am currently doing this on my project boat.

I wouldn't pay more than a few hundred dollars at most. I bought my project for 1500 with a tandem trailer, and an engine and transmission in operating condition.

BKH

LAME, I AM ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE!! I saw an old ad for the '83 mastercraft and it said it can't get waterlogged. They even guaenteed that in 15 years it will weigh the same as it did on the show room floor!! Why would the run a plastic duct through the foam? Dumb!

:/

bkhallpass
05-28-2010, 03:03 PM
83, when they first introduced close cell foam, it was supposed to be the panacea. It was not, turns out that it would absorb water if left to soak in the water for a while. The foam companies have continued to improve the technology.

In fairness, I have not seen the floor removed from an 85 Mastercraft. It is possible that they used PVC or a more durable product for the vent lines under the floor and through the foam, but it is not likely. It was pretty common to use the plastic ducting. Also, since I have not seen the floor off an 85, I cannot be positive where the foam is, or how it was laid in. I do know that a boat sitting with 2 feet of water in it for a couple of years, is very likely to have wet foam and ski king seems to confirm there is a history of water being trapped in boats of that era.

My current project is another brand of boat. I, and many other owners, scratch our heads and asj why the heck did they do that? We repair it better than new. However, when you think about it, even if the designs weren't perfect from the factory, they have held up well, even if abused for more than 25 years. There aren't many things you won't have to rebuild after 25 years of use and abuse.

MC did move to composite stringers in 83 or 84, which was a major move in terms of extending the life of the boat and helping to prevent rot and moisture retention. They were 3 to 10 years ahead of competitors in doing so. It is an innovation for which I give MC a lot of credit.

BKH

BKH

tph
05-28-2010, 11:10 PM
If you have the time and know-how, a project like this would be great for teeenage sons. I've been around boats for all of my 46 years, and I have learned more about their construction, and how they work by tearing one down to a bare hull, than I did in all my previous years of experience. Your son's will get real life experience in carpentry, engine mechanics, upholstery, fiberglass (perhaps) etc. They'll also learn how the ventilation systems, wiring, stearing, tracking fins, etc. are constructed and operate. You may well put more money into the boat than it's worth, but you can't put a dollar value on the learning experience and time spent with your sons.




This is a very good point. A lot of people believe that because the stringer system was fiberglass and composites (MC started composite stringers in 83 or 84), there is nothing to worry about below the floor. Not true. If water gets into the flotation foam, the foam will eventually soak it up. It can add several hundred pounds in weight. Also, frequently dryer vent hose was used for the ventilation system. This rots over time. When you take water over the bow, it goes into the vent hose, and then seeps into the foam. Have also seen cases where saturated foam freezes during the winter, expands, and causes floor separation, or cracking in the fiberglass and gelcoat. One last thing to think about if you do the project, if you should have failure where the platform brackets mount to the stern, it is a PITA to repair. You have to remove part of the floor to get to the repairs. A guy named sporty had this issue on this forum. If you are going to pull the floor, you might want to think about leaving the back 6 or eight inches of the flooring out (sealed off of course) so that you can access the transom if necessary. I am currently doing this on my project boat.

I wouldn't pay more than a few hundred dollars at most. I bought my project for 1500 with a tandem trailer, and an engine and transmission in operating condition.

BKH

I have an '83. The venting runs from the grill on the deck to the bilge through the center of the boat where air is drawn to the rear vent using a blower motor mounted to the stern. There isn't any foam along the route. Were you referring to your Non MC construction?

bkhallpass
05-29-2010, 01:27 AM
Hey that's good news. I haven't worked on an MC of this era yet, but I suspect I will sooner or later. If there is no foam around the vent hose, that's a really good thing, and was a smart design. It is a big problem on CCs of that vintage. I've seen the floor off of Supra, Supreme and Malibu. I was thinking in my minds eye that the hoses ran through the foam on those, but I dont' have any pictures, and I'm just not sure. All three had a lot of plywood rot issues and wet foam.

Where is the foam laid on your 83MC? Along the outside floors, and under the bow? Nothing in the center?

I would still be very surprised if the foam on this particular boat is not wet. Ski king suggested that water intrusion was sometimes a concern for MCs of the era. But even if not the case, the boat was apparently full of water for a couple of years. Even if completely sealed, water can eventualy permeate polyester fiberglass resin.

Thanks for the information.

BKH

Bookshelf
05-29-2010, 12:48 PM
Do the newer boats have water retention in their foam also? If not, what is the year when the foam got better?

ski_king
05-29-2010, 01:50 PM
This may help.
http://www.mastercraft.com/photopost/data/500/2705_3.jpg

bkhallpass
05-29-2010, 02:38 PM
Ski King, that is helpful. What I can't picture in my mind is the construction around the battery box and the vent hoses. If I am reading 83 Superslot's comments correctly, there is no foam in the area of the batterybox/vent hose area. If so, this would have been a very smart design.

Bookshelf, I can't answer your question. There are a lot of reasons why it is difficult for water to get into the foam on a modern boat. Resins are better, foam is better, fiberglass and composties floors replaced wood, and overall construction is better. They just do a better job of sealing off the foam.

Because Mastercraft went to composite Stringers very early, you just don't read a lot about floor and stringer issues. Even the early boats with wood stringers were well built, and if taken care of you are just now seeing the need for stringer replacement in some cases, and that has been almost 30 years.

I would not be very worried about saturated foam after the implementation of composite stringers unless I knew of a crack somewhere that might be letting water in, or if the boat had been full of water for a long period of time. Even then, I would probably just weigh the boat. If I did not notice an appreciable weight gain, I would assume the foam was in tact.

A friend of mine owns a 98 made by another manufacturer. All composite construction. It was completely sunk in 2001. When weighed, there was no evidence of water saturation in the foam. Repairs were made, and it is still running terrific today. I would expect similar results with MCs construction.

With this project boat, I would probably cut a few holes in the floor and check the foam in a few locations. If dry, it only takes a couple of hours to fiberglass over the holes. If it does happen to be soaked, then at least you know what you are dealing with before your spend money and time installing new carpets, etc.

Sorry for being long winded. I'm facscinated by the construction of competition boats, and really enjoy following the projects of those who will restore the early boats back to their glory.

BKH

ski_king
05-29-2010, 02:46 PM
Ski King, that is helpful. What I can't picture in my mind is the construction around the battery box and the vent hoses. If I am reading 83 Superslot's comments correctly, there is no foam in the area of the batterybox/vent hose area. If so, this would have been a very smart design..........
The battery box is located under the observer seat centered in the boat. It extends into the center bilge area. The vent hose goes from the grill on the bow and enters the bilge, just in front of the battery box and ends there. The air flows back trhu the bilge and there is a hose by the transom that extends from the bilge, thru the blower and exits out of the grill on the transom.

ski_king
05-29-2010, 02:48 PM
Here is an actual photo of an 83 split.

americanskierJim
05-29-2010, 04:13 PM
I hope to see the resto on your boat. I will be sure to keep tabs on your post to see how it is comming along. That will be a great thing to get your boys to help you out so they can learn to work on it and fix it. Have any more pics of the boat?

tph
05-30-2010, 01:15 AM
Hey that's good news. I haven't worked on an MC of this era yet, but I suspect I will sooner or later. If there is no foam around the vent hose, that's a really good thing, and was a smart design. It is a big problem on CCs of that vintage. I've seen the floor off of Supra, Supreme and Malibu. I was thinking in my minds eye that the hoses ran through the foam on those, but I dont' have any pictures, and I'm just not sure. All three had a lot of plywood rot issues and wet foam.

Where is the foam laid on your 83MC? Along the outside floors, and under the bow? Nothing in the center?

I would still be very surprised if the foam on this particular boat is not wet. Ski king suggested that water intrusion was sometimes a concern for MCs of the era. But even if not the case, the boat was apparently full of water for a couple of years. Even if completely sealed, water can eventualy permeate polyester fiberglass resin.

Thanks for the information.

BKH

As the pictures partially show, the bilge runs down the center of the boat from under the windshield to the transom. This area is open, has a gelcoat surface and no foam. This is where the wiring, and steering, throttle cables, fuel line etc.run The vent from the front deck is ducted into this area as well. Air is then drawn through the bilge and out of a vent on the transom with the help of a blower in the rear of the boat. The foam is located in the area between the hull and the floor adjacent to and in front of the bilge. You may want to weigh the boat to see if the foam is waterlogged. The original boat weighed about 2200 pounds if memory serves me correctly. These are great boats when restored, but I could understand not wanting to get into fixing a waterlogged hull. Good Luck.

BBOY
06-22-2010, 08:06 PM
Just put a rebuilt 351 in my '82 S&S engine only ran $1600 with a 3 year warranty. Didn't want to mess with it and had a shop put it together. Runs like it is 1982 again. Caveat, had new carb, pointless MSD set up and a few other things over the past couple of years. Never get the heads done without doing the rest of the motor, pistons get jealous and try to jump out through your block.