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Diesel
06-24-2005, 05:58 PM
I see this topic come up many times so I think it would be best to create a "Dual Battery Bible" for newcomers and others interested in adding a second(or more) auxillary battery to their boat. I will post my experiences and we can get other member's input as well. Hopefully we will all learn somthing............. :)

Diesel
06-24-2005, 06:03 PM
Since I have posted a few times on the topic I have had quite a few requests and PMs regarding dual battery setups and isolation. As a result I have composed the following guide to help you wire up a dual battery system using a heavy duty isolation relay. I have been using dual battery relays for over a decade in all kind of vehicles and I have found the relay to be the most effective and trouble free method yet (and yes I have tried just about every other method!). This is a very straight forward, easy installation that just about anybody should be able to accomplish in a few hours. Please use this at your own risk and please understand the following information has been obtained solely from my own personal experiences. If you have any questions or need help please ask. Also if I left anything out please let me know. With that said here we go…….

The easiest way to add an additional battery to your boat is to simply hard wire it in parallel. To connect the batteries in parallel you simply wire the negative post of battery 1 to the negative post of battery 2 and the positive terminal of battery 1 to the positive terminal of battery 2. In this configuration the two batteries act as one large 12volt battery and you get double the capacity. There are a few problems with this method. First, when not in use the batteries will continually charge and discharge into each other eventually ruining both batteries over time (I am speaking from experience here!). Second, since the batteries are permanently connected you run the risk of running down both batteries while the engine is not running. Yes, you get double capacity but after a day of running the stereo at the beach you still risk having two dead batteries and not enough juice to get back to the dock. The solution: a dual battery relay.

The two batteries are still wired in parallel but a relay is inserted in the positive cable to isolate the batteries when the ignition is OFF or in the ACC position. When wired properly the relay provides complete automatic control of the battery bank by simply using the ignition key. With the key in the OFF position or in the ACC position the relay is not energized and the positive circuit between the batteries is open. There is nothing to remember, switch, and no fear of accidentally disconnecting the main battery with the engine running potentially harming the charging system. In theory it works the same as an on/off Perko switch but instead of manually turning the switch the ignition key acts as the switch. Once installed you can forget about your batteries and enjoy the water! I like this because I do not have to remind or provide specific instruction to my wife, father, friend, etc….. when they drive my boat.

Below is a schematic that details the connections required to install an isolation relay. I have used a Borg Warner R3098 (http://www.borgwarnerbrand.com/flashhtml/relays/R3098.html) for many years in both my boat and jeep. The BW R3098 is identical to Stinger’s SR200 and can be found at most local auto parts stores. It was used in late 80s early 90s GM C/K3500 trucks for battery isolation and was mfg specifically for this purpose. It has a continuous duty rating of 200 amps and a peak of 650 amps and usually costs around $30. In its natural state (not energized) the relay is open which provides isolation. If your alternator has the potential to output more than 200AMPS you will need to find a different solution. Currently the largest alternator MC has offered from the factory has been the 05 and later models at 90amps.

Start by hard wiring the negative terminals between the two batteries using 2 Gauge cable (negative to negative). If possible try to keep the batteries as close together to save on battery cable expense. I have found most auto part stores have pre-made battery cables on the shelf in various lengths that work very well if the batteries are fairly close to each other. On marine Optimas (as well as any other dual post marine battery) I prefer to uset the 3/8 stud on top or on standard Optimas you can use the side posts. This will keep the aux negative connection out of the way of the MC factory top post connectors (engine) and make it easy to unhook the system during storage.

The positive connections are also wired positive to positive but a Borg Warner R3098 is used to open the connection to isolate the batteries. The relay has for posts on the top, two 5/16 suds (large) and two #10 studs (small). The 5/16 studs are connected to the positive terminals of the two batteries. It does not matter which way they are connected. Most BW relays do not come with 5/16 nuts so you will have to find a couple. I prefer Nyloc stainless steel 5/16 – 18 NC nuts to prevent corrosion. My local auto parts store stocks these as well and are in blister packs out on the floor. Here is a pic of the relay:

http://www.borgwarnerbrand.com/images/thumbs/AR158.gif

The small #10 studs are used to energize (close) the circuit. One small stud is wired to a ground and the other is wired to the ignition circuit of the boat. Again it does not matter which stud is used for the ground and which is used for the ignition circuit. For the ground I usually just use the closest battery and use a large ring terminal to hook it up. The other small terminal will be connected to the ignition source.

The easiest way to find the ignition circuit is to gain access to the back of the key. In all the MC boats I have done the ignition circuit has been a purple colored wire. Keep in mind there are many other purple wires in the harness so it is best to use some type of circuit tester or Fluke. If your batteries are in the back of the boat and you are confident in finding the ignition circuit you can open the harness near the engine to find the ignition circuit to save the aggravation of running a wire all the way from the dash. By far the easiest way is to locate the ignition terminal on the back of the key and run a wire from the dash to the remaining small terminal on the relay. Once wired up you can test the relay with a Fluke or you can just listen for an audible “click” from the relay when the key is turned to the ON position. If using a Fluke to test it should only show continuity (closed circuit) when in the ON position. In ACC and OFF the circuit should show no continuity and should be open. If using the your ear to test, the relay should click once when the ignition is turned to the ON position and click again when brought back to the off position. It should not click when the key is turned to the ACC position.

The only thing left to do is to relocate all the accessory components to the auxiliary battery. This usually can be accomplished by moving only the amplifier battery cables to the aux battery. In most systems I have not had to rewire the head units to the aux battery. If you are using external amplifiers the amp draw from the head unit is so small that it would take a long time to draw down the main battery. If you do run into a situation where your head unit is draining the main battery I would start by relocating the constant lead of the head unit to the aux battery and leave the ignition wire and ground hooked up to the factory wiring. The ignition circuit on the head unit should only pull a few mA which should not drain the main battery.

Diagram 1:

http://img63.echo.cx/img63/1719/diagram0xn.png

Diesel
06-24-2005, 06:06 PM
The above method is how I have my boat wired and has served me trouble free for many years. It works well and is completely automatic but if you require more control over your batteries you can add a DPDT switch in your dash to manually control the relay. I used a DPDT switch in conjunction with the relay in my Jeep so I could manually override the ignition circuit in certain circumstances. I have never had the need for more control in my boat but I outlined the details below for those who are interested.

All the wiring is the exact same as described above except at a DPDT switch is added to the ignition circuit. A schematic has been drawn below detailing the circuit. The relay is connected to terminal A of the switch and a jumper wire is then connected from terminal A to terminal F. The ignition circuit from the key is then attached to terminal B. A new wire is sourced from a constant positive source (back of the key also contains a constant positive) and connected to terminal E on the switch.

Now you have three options depending upon where the DPDT switch is located. With the switch in the middle position all circuits are open the batteries are always isolated regardless of key position. With the switch down the system is identical to the automatic mode in the original installation. The key automatically controls the isolation. With the switch in the up position the batteries are connected 100% of the time regardless of key position. The addition of the switch does provide an extra level of control since you can select how you want the batteries to be isolated manually. Plus it still gives you the option to put the system in an automatic mode. I have found when installing the switch in boats they stay in the automatic position 99% of the time anyway so I usually do not bother with one.

http://img63.echo.cx/img63/7747/switch4em.png

FrankSchwab
06-24-2005, 06:37 PM
Great read, Diesel!

I've thought about adding a second battery to my boat, but the solutions out there in the world always seemed excessively expensive (certain high-end "battery isolators"), excessively complex (various home-brew cross-wiring systems, with/without Perko switches), or unreliable.

This one wins the cheap, effective, robust, and elegant awards.

Thanks,

/frank

BRAZOS 205
06-24-2005, 09:34 PM
I also put in a high amp relay for my two battery system upon advice from Diesel. Working great so far, and the peace of mind of being able to start the engine after hours of just listening to the stereo is priceless. Thanks again Diesel, good info.

BriEOD
06-24-2005, 10:57 PM
Nice thread Diesel. Very detailed. My only concern is what effect will this cause on your alternator. I'm not an EE, but what do you think is the minimum amperage alternator you could safely use with this? Obviously, by putting the batteries in parallel you are charging both simultaneously and you have doubled the demand on the alternator.

Diesel
06-27-2005, 10:43 AM
Nice thread Diesel. Very detailed. My only concern is what effect will this cause on your alternator. I'm not an EE, but what do you think is the minimum amperage alternator you could safely use with this? Obviously, by putting the batteries in parallel you are charging both simultaneously and you have doubled the demand on the alternator.

Theoretically it should not matter nor harm the alternator. The alternator only sees one large battery when the relay is energized. As a result it will have to run longer to bring the system up to a full charge. Any amp alternator will work but a higher amp alternator will charge the system faster, thus work less.

zberger
06-27-2005, 10:52 AM
Nice thread Diesel. Very detailed. My only concern is what effect will this cause on your alternator. I'm not an EE, but what do you think is the minimum amperage alternator you could safely use with this? Obviously, by putting the batteries in parallel you are charging both simultaneously and you have doubled the demand on the alternator.

If I am correct, the relay solves this problem.. as the relay charges both the batteries evenly.. and in theory its just one large battery.

I did not know the Borg piece was available.. and ended up buying a 60 amp (rated) Isolator from Napa.. it works great. If I was to do it all over again, I would probably just use the Borg piece.. Tho finding the Acc wire on older boats that aren't MC's might be a pain..

zberger
06-27-2005, 10:54 AM
Theoretically it should not matter nor harm the alternator. The alternator only sees one large battery when the relay is energized. As a result it will have to run longer to bring the system up to a full charge. Any amp alternator will work but a higher amp alternator will charge the system faster, thus work less.

Is there any difference between a marine rated alt.. (or does such a thing exist..) and your basic high amp Ohio Generator or.. stinger alt? Since these are standard GM blocks you should be able to bolt up just about any alternator your heart desires, assuming you can use a car one. But I'd imagine there would need to be some sort of spark arrestor or SOMETHING..

Diesel
06-27-2005, 12:58 PM
Is there any difference between a marine rated alt.. (or does such a thing exist..) and your basic high amp Ohio Generator or.. stinger alt? Since these are standard GM blocks you should be able to bolt up just about any alternator your heart desires, assuming you can use a car one. But I'd imagine there would need to be some sort of spark arrestor or SOMETHING..

Yes, a marine rated unit is mandatory. The automotive units will bolt right up and function the same but they do not have the proper spark arresting screens and or brush less armature. A non-marine alternator will pose an explosion hazard.

gregg
06-27-2005, 02:53 PM
Dual battery systems do not have to isolated to be effective. If the system you use works, then stick with it. I, too, debated about the best way, and with 30 years experiance in the automotive repair field I know that, for example diesel trucks with a dual battery set up use no relays to seperate the batteries. What they do, that is different, and the way my batteries are connected is very simple. The positive cables to the boat are connected to the positive post of the main battery. The negative cables to the boat are connected to the negative post of the second battery. Then, the batteries are connected together in parallel. This does one very important thing. The batteries are discharged and charged evenly. The biggest enemy in a Marine battery's life, are number of cycles (discharging and recharging) and heat. When you isolate one battery and discharge it completely, it has not only been thru one deep cycle, but also creates more internal heat in the recharge process.
Diesel, I am in no way saying your system is wrong. I decided after my own experiance and research, and a pow wow with my Interstate Battery rep.(who knows batteries inside and out), that this system works the best for me. Even after a day at the beach running 2 amps, I have never had an issue. You are right about one thing, if you poop both batteries, you are screwed, so I just keep a booster pack charged and on board just in case. However, in 3 seasons with my 2002 maristar 210 have never had to use it. The other important thing for a marine battery is to keep it fully charged in the off season. When a battery becomes discharged, the acid absorbs into the plates causing sulfation, and leaves the water in a state that will freeze.

zberger
06-27-2005, 03:01 PM
Dual battery systems do not have to isolated to be effective. If the system you use works, then stick with it. I, too, debated about the best way, and with 30 years experiance in the automotive repair field I know that, for example diesel trucks with a dual battery set up use no relays to seperate the batteries. What they do, that is different, and the way my batteries are connected is very simple. The positive cables to the boat are connected to the positive post of the main battery. The negative cables to the boat are connected to the negative post of the second battery. Then, the batteries are connected together in parallel. This does one very important thing. The batteries are discharged and charged evenly. The biggest enemy in a Marine battery's life, are number of cycles (discharging and recharging) and heat. When you isolate one battery and discharge it completely, it has not only been thru one deep cycle, but also creates more internal heat in the recharge process.
Diesel, I am in no way saying your system is wrong. I decided after my own experiance and research, and a pow wow with my Interstate Battery rep.(who knows batteries inside and out), that this system works the best for me. Even after a day at the beach running 2 amps, I have never had an issue. You are right about one thing, if you poop both batteries, you are screwed, so I just keep a booster pack charged and on board just in case. However, in 3 seasons with my 2002 maristar 210 have never had to use it. The other important thing for a marine battery is to keep it fully charged in the off season. When a battery becomes discharged, the acid absorbs into the plates causing sulfation, and leaves the water in a state that will freeze.

I've seen this used this way in car audio applications but never in a boat app..

The first boat stereo I did was for a very good friend of mine's grandfathers boat (his gramps has become older and isn't using it much but has a lake house) anyways, we added an isolator and a 2nd marine battery (biggest one walmart had..) I would have like to use all optima's but they just weren't in the budget.. someday maybe! Since this boat was going to be used by others and not just me and my buddy or his dad, this option was just not a viable one.. we wanted the extra off key (motor off) playing time.. and doing just 1 battery, or 2 in parallel was just not something we could do. Even in my own boat I think I would isolate them still.

I need to bring a volt meter out with me this weekend to see what kind of voltage we are getting when the boat is at full throttle.. but it works great, stereo is loud! I am hoping for around 12 volts in each battery before we start the boat.. some somewhere in the low 13's at throttle. My buddies dad did comment the boat has been running considerably better now that we have the dual batteries in.. could have been a grounding issue before, not sure.

We are adding a 12" Image Dynamics IDQ subwoofer undernear the rear seat in an enclosure we made out of 1/2 inch MDF and I am getting it line-x'd this weekend.

Diesel
06-27-2005, 03:46 PM
Dual battery systems do not have to isolated to be effective. If the system you use works, then stick with it. I, too, debated about the best way, and with 30 years experiance in the automotive repair field I know that, for example diesel trucks with a dual battery set up use no relays to seperate the batteries. What they do, that is different, and the way my batteries are connected is very simple. The positive cables to the boat are connected to the positive post of the main battery. The negative cables to the boat are connected to the negative post of the second battery. Then, the batteries are connected together in parallel. This does one very important thing. The batteries are discharged and charged evenly. The biggest enemy in a Marine battery's life, are number of cycles (discharging and recharging) and heat. When you isolate one battery and discharge it completely, it has not only been thru one deep cycle, but also creates more internal heat in the recharge process.
Diesel, I am in no way saying your system is wrong. I decided after my own experiance and research, and a pow wow with my Interstate Battery rep.(who knows batteries inside and out), that this system works the best for me. Even after a day at the beach running 2 amps, I have never had an issue. You are right about one thing, if you poop both batteries, you are screwed, so I just keep a booster pack charged and on board just in case. However, in 3 seasons with my 2002 maristar 210 have never had to use it. The other important thing for a marine battery is to keep it fully charged in the off season. When a battery becomes discharged, the acid absorbs into the plates causing sulfation, and leaves the water in a state that will freeze.

Good comments.............

The only issue I have with not isolating a parallel set of batteries is the continous voltage flow between the batteries. This is a non-issue in most vehicles (including diesels) because they are driven frequently. As a result the alternator has an opportunity to keep both batteries at full voltage to minimize discharge between the two batteries. Since a boat is not driven every day two batteries stored in parallel will eventually destroy each other.

In addition it is easy to see why you have never drained the two batteries since your stereo is only pulling two amps :). At 90% my current system will pull 165 amps :D . I can drain two brand new optima blue tops in 3 hours very easily.

As a result, isolation not only give me the security of knowing I can make it back to the dock but it also gives me the security of knowing the two batteries are not going to kill themselves.

bcampbe7
06-27-2005, 03:50 PM
Good comments.............

The only issue I have with not isolating a parallel set of batteries is the continous voltage flow between the batteries. This is a non-issue in most vehicles (including diesels) because they are driven frequently. As a result the alternator has an opportunity to keep both batteries at full voltage to minimize discharge between the two batteries. Since a boat is not driven every day two batteries stored in parallel will eventually destroy each other.

In addition it is easy to see why you have never drained the two batteries since your stereo is only pulling two amps :). At 90% my current system will pull 165 amps :D . I can drain two brand new optima blue tops in 3 hours very easily.

As a result, isolation not only give me the security of knowing I can make it back to the dock but it also gives me the security of knowing the two batteries are not going to kill themselves.


I think he may have meant 2 amplifiers. Maybe not, just my thinking. At any rate, thanks for the write-up Diesel! I am wanting to add a battery, this will come in very handy.

Diesel
06-27-2005, 04:00 PM
I think he may have meant 2 amplifiers. Maybe not, just my thinking. At any rate, thanks for the write-up Diesel! I am wanting to add a battery, this will come in very handy.

I'm laughing at myself right now :D I knew there was no way he had a stereo that only pulled 2 amps :confused:. Your explanation makes so much more sense.........thanks ;)

zberger
06-27-2005, 04:41 PM
Good comments.............

The only issue I have with not isolating a parallel set of batteries is the continous voltage flow between the batteries. This is a non-issue in most vehicles (including diesels) because they are driven frequently. As a result the alternator has an opportunity to keep both batteries at full voltage to minimize discharge between the two batteries. Since a boat is not driven every day two batteries stored in parallel will eventually destroy each other.

In addition it is easy to see why you have never drained the two batteries since your stereo is only pulling two amps :). At 90% my current system will pull 165 amps :D . I can drain two brand new optima blue tops in 3 hours very easily.

As a result, isolation not only give me the security of knowing I can make it back to the dock but it also gives me the security of knowing the two batteries are not going to kill themselves.

I love where you mounted those batteries too.. very creative.

gregg
06-27-2005, 06:09 PM
Sorry, yes I did mean 2 amplifiers, mtx280 for the sub, and jl audio for the componants and tower speakers, 80 to 100 amp draw, at boat to beach volumn levels, so my system is a bit smaller than yours. I would still debate the theory of the amps or volts traveling between batteries unless one of the batteries had an internal short or drain. The batteries are discharged and charged equally, so there is no amperage flow of any kind. For sure a bad battery would ruin a good battery, which is why they should always be replace in pairs. For the voltage to push the amperage, the amperage has to have a load or place to go( light, amplifier ect.). The bottom line is even though these are deep cycle batteries and meant to run accessories for long periods of time, the deeper you drain or cycle them the shorter the life due to heat and sulfation of the plates. In my opinion or theory if you will, your system would actually work your batteries harder because you could and probably do completely discharge one of your batteries. When you start your boat and connect your batteries together, not only is your alternator charging your low battery, but your full battery is also transfering amperage into your low battery. Again, I am not saying your system is wrong or mine is right, just a different way getting one thing done..enjoying great tunes on a hot day with a cold beer!!

zberger
06-27-2005, 06:23 PM
Sorry, yes I did mean 2 amplifiers, mtx280 for the sub, and jl audio for the componants and tower speakers, 80 to 100 amp draw, at boat to beach volumn levels, so my system is a bit smaller than yours. I would still debate the theory of the amps or volts traveling between batteries unless one of the batteries had an internal short or drain. The batteries are discharged and charged equally, so there is no amperage flow of any kind. For sure a bad battery would ruin a good battery, which is why they should always be replace in pairs. For the voltage to push the amperage, the amperage has to have a load or place to go( light, amplifier ect.). The bottom line is even though these are deep cycle batteries and meant to run accessories for long periods of time, the deeper you drain or cycle them the shorter the life due to heat and sulfation of the plates. In my opinion or theory if you will, your system would actually work your batteries harder because you could and probably do completely discharge one of your batteries. When you start your boat and connect your batteries together, not only is your alternator charging your low battery, but your full battery is also transfering amperage into your low battery. Again, I am not saying your system is wrong or mine is right, just a different way getting one thing done..enjoying great tunes on a hot day with a cold beer!!

To me, the easiest answer to all your questions is.. why not get the 30 dollar part.. and save yourself the trouble from even worrying about it all.. ;)

Andyg
02-03-2006, 12:56 PM
Diesel,

Can you repost the pictures you had in this thread? Do you have a picture of where you relocated your batteries to? It thought I remember you saying you relocated them to you bilge compartment.


Thanks


Andy

Cloaked
02-03-2006, 01:27 PM
I see this topic come up many times so.....

http://www.tmcowners.com/teamtalk/search.php?

Works every time... :toast:

...dismissing laziness... :noface:

:steering:

skitilldark
02-05-2006, 06:00 PM
Not to compicate this thread, but how about adding a third battery? For 2 years I've had two batteries with just a simple isolator switch between the two. They worked great overall and no problems with the alternator. But last year, I added a 5th amp to the mix and I'm almost positive I'm overtaxing the Optima that is supposed to run the stereo. If I add another Optima, would it be okay to just wire those two together, or should I isolate them as well?

Diesel
02-06-2006, 12:24 PM
Not to compicate this thread, but how about adding a third battery? For 2 years I've had two batteries with just a simple isolator switch between the two. They worked great overall and no problems with the alternator. But last year, I added a 5th amp to the mix and I'm almost positive I'm overtaxing the Optima that is supposed to run the stereo. If I add another Optima, would it be okay to just wire those two together, or should I isolate them as well?

No need to isolate the third battery or the forth, fifth, etc.............. The isolation only protects the starting battery from draining while running the stereo. The isolation ensures you will always have a fresh battery for the engine.

Just wire the third battery in parallel to the auxiliary battery. This way the isolator still only sees one big 12 volt battery. I would recommend that you buy two new identical batteries to prevent current disparencies between the hardwired batteries. In addition if I know I am not going to be using my boat for a month or longer I will disconnect one of the terminals connecting the two auxiliary batteries to prevent current flow between the batteries.

Also make sure you do not overload the capacity of your isolation device. Double check the rating and measure your current draw from the 5 amps to ensure the isolator is not overloaded.

skitilldark
02-06-2006, 05:51 PM
No need to isolate the third battery or the forth, fifth, etc.............. The isolation only protects the starting battery from draining while running the stereo. The isolation ensures you will always have a fresh battery for the engine.

Just wire the third battery in parallel to the auxiliary battery. This way the isolator still only sees one big 12 volt battery. I would recommend that you buy two new identical batteries to prevent current disparencies between the hardwired batteries. In addition if I know I am not going to be using my boat for a month or longer I will disconnect one of the terminals connecting the two auxiliary batteries to prevent current flow between the batteries.

Also make sure you do not overload the capacity of your isolation device. Double check the rating and measure your current draw from the 5 amps to ensure the isolator is not overloaded.

Thanks a ton for the info!

rmbrinner
02-28-2006, 10:52 PM
I am very inexperienced with this type of thing. Can someone please explain in detail exactly how to connect the relay to the ignition circuit? I would really appreciate it!

Also, is it going to be a problem if I keep the battery that I have now for starting, and add a blue top D34M for accessories? All I know about the battery I have now is a one year old deep cycle marine battery, but is not a blue top.

RobertT
02-28-2006, 11:43 PM
Not wanting to complicate things further, but is there a easy way to diagnose current drain? I bought a new battery a few months ago, and have not used it since other than just a few tests on my sound system.

My battery is dead again.

I have not disconnected it and trickle charged it though.

Any ideas gurus??

Leroy
03-01-2006, 12:04 AM
Robert; YOu can put a VOM that reads current in series with the positive lead off a charged battery. With everything off you should see some current draw if your battery is being killed. Then you will have to find that problem!

BrianS
03-01-2006, 10:02 AM
There is a similar discussion going on here: http://www.tmcowners.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=6569

I'm getting ready to install dual batteries in my Prostar 190 and I'm planning on using a different isolator/combiner. Specifically this unit: http://www.yandina.com/c100Info.htm

I believe there is one drawback to using a "dumb" relay. When the key is switched to ON the batteries are immediately placed in parallel. If one of the batteries is significantly drained it will pull the other battery down and equalize at a voltage level somewhere in the middle. This could all happen between the key hitting ON and START. Potentially the voltage could drop low enough to prevent the boat from starting. I have never had this happen but I think it is theoretically possible.

The Yandina combiner only places the batteries in parallel when one of the batteries reaches 13 volts, ie it is being charged. This only happens when the alternator is turning, ie the boat is running. So starting the boat will drop the voltage of the starting battery down, once the alternator has it fully recharged, the batteries are placed in parallel to allow the aux battery to charge.

I'm not trying to knock the method above, obviously it works very well. Just throwing out another alternative. I'll draw up a diagram for the setup I'm planning and post it.

Byrdman
03-01-2006, 10:41 AM
GREAT INFO DIESEL, THANKS!!!! I just added another amp and sub to my system and decided to do this as well. With this info, I'll be able to get this done in a fraction of the time. FYI, If anyone is in an agricultural area, you can get tractor batt. cables that already have the double post clamps as well.

BrianS
03-01-2006, 11:49 AM
Here is the diagram:

prostar205
03-09-2006, 08:50 PM
This is great info. I have a thread that I started about this same subject. I will piggyback onto this one and ask a few questions.

It appears to me that people are either using the relay method or battery combiner. I don't see alot of folks using a pure isolator between the AUX and Starting battery. Why is that?

I have had a dual battery setup in my boats since 1989 and have always used an isolator without any problems. I am now installing a three battery system in my X30. Two Optima Blue Top D34Ms wired in parallel for the stereo and a single battery to start the engine, run the gauges, ballast pumps, bilge pumps, etc...

Here is my block diagram.

Can someone tell me if this looks correct?

prostar205
03-10-2006, 01:26 AM
I did a Google search for "battery switch wiring" and found some info on the Marinco web site. I have updated my block diagram to add a wire connection between the starter and the "feed" terminal on the back of the battery switch. I have no idea where this new wire comes from. My guess is that is comes off the positive lead of the starter. Can anyone clarify and/or verify this? What gauge wire should I use for this wire?

prostar205
03-10-2006, 02:07 AM
Ok - I'm keep reading things that make me more nervous. On the Yandina web site (www.yandina.com), they state the following.

"Often a boat will have a lead-acid starting battery but you would prefer to use a low maintenance, deep cycle marine battery for the "house" loads. The problem is, the alternator has a built-in regulator set for the lead-acid charging voltage which will damage an AGM or GEL style battery".

This is exactly what I'm trying to do. They state there is a feature built into their combiners that makes it act as a voltage regulator for AGM/GEL style batteries. One of the cables or terminals on the top is labelled "HI VOLTS". When this control is connected to a voltage of about 14.2 volts, it disables the combiner until the voltage drops below this threshold. This added jumper connection carries no current so a 16 or 18 gauge wire is more than adequate.

Has anyone used these Battery Combiners? Am I going to have problems if I use my isolator?

BrianS
03-10-2006, 09:17 AM
You'll need to check the exact charging specs for the Optima batteries. Alternators put out about 14.4 volts. I believe that the Optima batteries will accept that voltage for charging as there are lots of people using them with no additional regulator.

Most GEL cell and some AGM batteries are very sensitive to high voltage charging, and require this regualtor feature to prevent over charging.

Diesel
03-10-2006, 11:39 AM
Ok - I'm keep reading things that make me more nervous. On the Yandina web site (www.yandina.com), they state the following.

"Often a boat will have a lead-acid starting battery but you would prefer to use a low maintenance, deep cycle marine battery for the "house" loads. The problem is, the alternator has a built-in regulator set for the lead-acid charging voltage which will damage an AGM or GEL style battery".

This is exactly what I'm trying to do. They state there is a feature built into their combiners that makes it act as a voltage regulator for AGM/GEL style batteries. One of the cables or terminals on the top is labelled "HI VOLTS". When this control is connected to a voltage of about 14.2 volts, it disables the combiner until the voltage drops below this threshold. This added jumper connection carries no current so a 16 or 18 gauge wire is more than adequate.

Has anyone used these Battery Combiners? Am I going to have problems if I use my isolator?

All BS IMHO. Here are Optima's charging specs:

Recommended charging information:

Alternator:
13.3 to 15.0 volts, no amperage limit.

Battery charger:
13.8 to 15.0 volts, 10 amps maximum, 6-12 hours approximate.

Rapid Recharge:
Maximum voltage 15.6 volts (regulated).
Maximum current: No limit as long as temperature < 125°F (51.7°C).
Maximum recharge time: Charge until current drops below 1 amp.

Float charge:
13.2 to 13.8 volts, 1 amp maximum current, time indefinite (at lower voltage).


Combiners are basically a smart relay. The connection is open between the batteries until voltage drops then the combiner directs current to the set of batteries that need it. The simple relay method creates one large battery for the alternator when the engine is running. I like to keep is simple myself, plus I am cheap. :D

In regard to you isolator, I would not use it. Google isolators and you will find tons of information about how ineffiecient they are. Plus I do not think your isolator will be able to handle the upgraded alternator current.

Diesel
03-10-2006, 11:51 AM
I believe there is one drawback to using a "dumb" relay. When the key is switched to ON the batteries are immediately placed in parallel. If one of the batteries is significantly drained it will pull the other battery down and equalize at a voltage level somewhere in the middle. This could all happen between the key hitting ON and START. Potentially the voltage could drop low enough to prevent the boat from starting. I have never had this happen but I think it is theoretically possible.

I'm not trying to knock the method above, obviously it works very well. Just throwing out another alternative. I'll draw up a diagram for the setup I'm planning and post it.

It's funny you call it a drawback because I see it the other way. If by some chance you leave a light on in your boat overnight and it drains the starter battery as soon as the key is turned your aux battery(ies) are brought online and the boat starts right up. As much as I hate to admit it I have had this happen more than once and I was very glad the relay was "dumb".

On the other hand, I have many, many times run my stereo so long and hard that both my aux batteries were not able to power the system any longer yet never had any problems starting the boat. I like the relay being "dumb" because I have complete control over the system under any circumstances.............call me a control freak! Plus it's much cheaper, easier to install, and can be bought just about anywhere.

Now, I have nothing against combiners and they are by far much better than isolators but I just don't see the benefits to justify the cost. :)

JimN
03-10-2006, 12:20 PM
Robert- if you have a test light or multi-meter, you can check for drain by removing one cable from the battery and connecting one lead to the cable, then one to the battery post. If it lights up or the meter shows more than about 15mA, you have a draw, somewhere. You can find it by pulling fuses, one-by-one until it goes away. If you pull all fuses and it still lights up, remove the charging lead from the alternator. If it goes out after that, your rectifier in the alternator is bad and needs to be replaced. Not expensive, but call around for prices- it may be better to do a total rebuild and you can tell them that you want it beefed up.

prostar205
03-10-2006, 11:52 PM
I am going to try and summarize, to the best of my ability, the options outlined in this thread for separating and charging 2 "banks" of batteries. For this thread, the word "bank" will refer to a two batteries wired in parallel.

As I see it, there for four (4) different methods to get the engine's alternator to charge (or re-charge) two separate banks of batteries. They are 1) isolator, 2) battery combiner, 3) perko switch, 4) "dumb" relay. I will try to list the pros and cons of each.

1) Isolator
Pros: provides diode isolation between the two banks of batteries so there is no cross feed of voltage
Cons: generates heat, some say not very reliable - however, I would argue that a solid state device (such as an isolator) is more reliable than a mechanical relay.

2) Battery Combiner - basically a "smart" relay
Pros: provides isolation when power is taken away. Also, acts as a voltage regulator for different type of batteries in Bank 1 verses Bank 2.
Cons: links both banks of batteries together when voltage is applied which "could" lead to the low bank of batteries draining the high bank of batteries.

3) Perko Switch - basically a manual relay
Pros: easy to wire, simple, cheap
Cons: operator must remember to manually turn switch from Off, Both, 1, 2 in order to operate correctly. Also, links both banks of batteries together when voltage is applied which "could" lead to the low bank of batteries draining the high bank of batteries.

4) "Dumb" Relay
Pros: easy to wire, cheap, simple, compact, able to take high currents
Cons: links both banks of batteries together when voltage is applied which "could" lead to the low bank of batteries draining the high bank of batteries.

I am not an expert in this field. However, I want to wire my stereo batteries correctly and am finding alot of conflicting information.

I would really appreciate anyones comments. Please feel free to modify any of my finds.

Thanks,

PS205

JimN
03-11-2006, 12:08 AM
One important thing to remember, the alternator still needs to be up to the task. A 55A unit is not enough to supply the needed voltage or current to a boat full of accessories + a 1000 W stereo with 2 batteries. The OEM alternator will overheat and at minimum, the bridge rectifier will go and worst case, the bearings and field go at the point that Murphy talked about, possibly leading to smoke and then some. I worked with 12V for a long time and have seen a lot of bad things happen to systems that didn't have adequate power supply upgrades. Regardless of what is done to the system, P(power) still equals I(current) x E(voltage) and that can't be changed.

One other negative to battery isolators- most are basically diodes and cause a voltage drop which can keep the battery (or batteries) from fully charging.

prostar205
03-11-2006, 01:30 AM
JimN -

Thanks for the reply. This is the type of info I am looking for.

Regarding my alternator, the OEM alternator is a Leece-Neville that only puts out 51A. It seems alittle small for the L-18. Anyway, my local electric shop is going to pump it up to 120A and it will be all marine certified. I also plan on upgrading the wiring from the alternator to the starter to at least 4 AWG maybe even 0 AWG because I'll have some left over from the stereo install.

Am I leaving anything out? Or missing anything? I only want to do this once and do it right the first time.

Do you have a perference between battery combiners, "dumb" relays or just use the Perko switch when charging two banks of batteries???

JimN
03-11-2006, 01:39 AM
The lead from the alternator goes to the battery, not the starter. The starter already has the proper size of cable. What you want to change, if anything, is the charging lead. The best way to do this is by abandoning the original (disconnect it from both ends and tape the terminals so they can be uncovered later when restoring it to factory condition) and running a heavier one along the harness to the battery, then wrap it with split loom and tape it the same as the original. Any terminals should be crimped (properly) and soldered. IIRC, the OEM charging lead is 10 ga. 6 ga should be fine for your purpose.

If a Perko will handle the current, those work fine. I don't really have a preference, other than just making sure it will handle the load and placing it on something that will handle any heat the switch throws off.

prostar205
03-11-2006, 01:51 AM
Thanks Jim.

When using two battery banks, the wire that needs to be upgraded from the alternator should run to the Engine battery bank or the AUX battery bank? My guess would be the Engine battery bank, I'll call it Bank 1.

Upon your recommendations, I think I'll remove the alternator and just run either a Borg Warner "dumb" relay like Diesel has done or just go for the Perko switch.

Also, what does IIRC stand for?

Leroy
03-11-2006, 09:26 AM
Great job Diesel! Definitely FAQ!

JimN
03-11-2006, 10:35 AM
IIRC is 'If I Remember Correctly' Just one of the snazzy internet abbreviations.

Are the second batteries going to be close to the primary battery? With the switch or re;ay in the 'Both' position, all batteries will receive charging voltage, but if the switch is in either the 1 or 2 position, only the primary battery will get that.

prostar205
03-11-2006, 11:18 AM
My starting or engine battery will be in the compartment on the driver's side of the engine and the stereo or AUX battery bank (2 Optimas) will be on the passenger side of the engine. So, I would say they are relatively close together.

prostar205
03-13-2006, 08:42 PM
Jim -

I took the boat apart this weekend and learned alot of stuff. First, I have an orange wire, probably 8-10 AWG, going from the POS lead of the alternator direct to the starter. Then, there is a 2 AWG battery lead going from the starter to my Perko Battery Switch COMMON terminal. I did not find any wire going directly from the alternator to either battery. This is how my dealer wired in my isolator and battery switch and it worked fine. Now, I am getting rid of the isolator and running only the Perko switch (for now, I may add a Borg Warner Relay down the road or a battery combiner). So, what am I missing. I know a few threads back you said there should be a wired going from the alternator direct to the battery - which battery, Engine or Stereo???

Thanks for the help. I will post another block diagram later this evening of how I am planning on wiring my batteries and Perko Switch.

JimN
03-13-2006, 11:38 PM
OK, I forgot that they just go to the battery cable at the starter since the battery is farther away from the alternator than in a car or truck. Sorry about that.

Diesel
03-14-2006, 10:51 AM
Jim -

Then, there is a 2 AWG battery lead going from the starter to my Perko Battery Switch COMMON terminal. I did not find any wire going directly from the alternator to either battery. This is how my dealer wired in my isolator and battery switch and it worked fine.

IMHO this is a very dangerous way to wire the system. If by chance somebody turned the perko the wrong way (to off) it will instantly kill the regulator in the alternator. The charging lead off the alternator should always be hard-wired (no switch) to at least one of the batteries(banks). It is the safest way to do it, no exceptions.

I understand why the Perko switch was used and I discourage it in any dual battery setup simply because the relay does the exact same thing, is automatic, and costs less.

However in your new setup I do not understand why you would keep the Perko switch at all?? If you just want to cut power I would install it on the 6-8ga lead that powers the rest of the boat harness. As a rule I do not place any switching devices between the charge and starter circuits of the engine harness and engine battery(banks). Too much current and too much risk IMHO.

prostar205
03-19-2006, 01:18 AM
Diesel -

Is it OK to add a wire, of appropriate AWG, from the + terminal of the alternator direct to the + terminal of Battery 1 and also keep the 8-10 AWG that goes from the alternator to the starter?

Regarding the use of the Perko, since I already have it and do not have a relay, I think I am going to use the Perko for now. If I determine it is a PIA, I will add either a Battery Combiner or the BW relay.

zberger
03-19-2006, 03:04 AM
I still have no idea why you guys are bothering with perko's........................................... ...........

prostar205
03-19-2006, 10:58 AM
Zberger -

Suggestions in place of the Perko????

Borg Warner replay?
Battery Combiner?
Isolator?

Need input.

Thanks

prostar205
03-19-2006, 11:39 AM
A few more questions.

If I go with a isolation relay, like the Borg Warner R3098 or Sitnger SR200, since ALL the batteries will be in parallel once the key is turned to the ON position, is this a good idea with two difference battery types. My main starting battery will be a standard lead-acid DEKA marine battery while the AUX battery (stereo) is two Optima Blue Tops?

Would I also have an issue with just using the Perko switch?

prostar205
03-24-2006, 02:00 AM
Anyone have a comment or answer on my above posted question???

Leroy
03-24-2006, 02:26 AM
Prostar; I would say not ideal, but probably not a problem. Main concern is difference in voltage causing one battery to charge more or not allow the other battery to charge enough. I personally like the relay best since it is automatic. You could either measure the voltage on each battery or look at the spec's to see how closely they match. The Optimas are AGM and the starting battery is lead acid so they are indeed different battery types.

BrianS
03-24-2006, 08:28 AM
The Perko switch is needed if using the battery combiner because the batteries are not placed in parallel until the system is charging, ie the alternator is turning. Therefore, it is not possible to start the boat from Bank 2 without using the switch (in the event that Bank 1 dies).

With an isolator or relay the batteries are placed in parallel when the key is switched to the "Run" position, so both batteries are used to start the boat at all times.

The Perko switch is designed to sit between your batteries and the rest of the system, ie starter, alternator, etc. It provides total control over which battery is used for starting and which is being charged. It is ignition protected and as long as you use the proper guage cable I see no problem with using one.

Leroy
03-24-2006, 09:06 AM
FYI, http://www.yandina.com/acrobats/C150Data.pdf

From earlier thread: http://www.tmcowners.com/teamtalk/printthread.php?t=2183&pp=40

Diesel
03-27-2006, 12:26 PM
Anyone have a comment or answer on my above posted question???

You will be fine. The only time I try to match batteries is when they are hard wired parallel with no isolator. In this case you will be using an isolator between the two banks of batteries and a charging current will be applied most of the time the banks are connected which will further prevent any damaging discharge between banks.

Diesel
03-27-2006, 12:27 PM
The Perko switch is needed if using the battery combiner because the batteries are not placed in parallel until the system is charging, ie the alternator is turning. Therefore, it is not possible to start the boat from Bank 2 without using the switch (in the event that Bank 1 dies).

With an isolator or relay the batteries are placed in parallel when the key is switched to the "Run" position, so both batteries are used to start the boat at all times.

The Perko switch is designed to sit between your batteries and the rest of the system, ie starter, alternator, etc. It provides total control over which battery is used for starting and which is being charged. It is ignition protected and as long as you use the proper guage cable I see no problem with using one.

Sounds confusing :D

prostar205
03-27-2006, 12:38 PM
Diesel -

I had a little change in plans. I am currently only going to use the Perko switch and no isolator - for now. Am I still going to be OK with "mixed" batteries between battery 1 (lead acid type) and battery 2 (Optimas)?

The way I see it is: when using the Borg Warner Relay, as soon as you energize the ignition (motor off), all the batteries as immediately put in parrallel. At least with the Perko Switch, I can turn it to battery 1, start the engine and then turn the Perko switch to both to allow both batteries to charge.

I am now at the point of installing the amps and headunit (Pioneer Premier DEH-P860MP) and I have a few questions. I will PM you this morning.

OhioProstar
03-27-2006, 12:43 PM
IMHO it is hard to trust a relay or isolator without upgrading your alternator and associated fuses/wiring. All of a sudden you are spending quite a bit and putting a lot of faith in a single point of failure (isolator/relay). For a lot less you can run a switch($25), I used BlueSea, and a multi-bank changing system($100) that you just plug in at night to keep both batteries changed. If a battery is drawn too far down then you just turn the switch to the back up battery and once running turn back through the ON position to the main bank for charging. I understand that it is not automatic, but it seems the most cost effective and the least problematic in the long run.

Diesel
03-27-2006, 01:11 PM
Diesel -

I had a little change in plans. I am currently only going to use the Perko switch and no isolator - for now. Am I still going to be OK with "mixed" batteries between battery 1 (lead acid type) and battery 2 (Optimas)?

You will still be fine if you choose to use the perko. Just don't forget to leave it on both or turn it to off when the battery is running, or etc, etc, etc............ :D

The way I see it is: when using the Borg Warner Relay, as soon as you energize the ignition (motor off), all the batteries as immediately put in parallel. At least with the Perko Switch, I can turn it to battery 1, start the engine and then turn the Perko switch to both to allow both batteries to charge.

You can wire the relay to function how ever you want. If you add a DPDT switch instead of using the ignition switch you will basically have a perko that is controlled from a rocker switch in the dash. A MC bilge switch cover works great since is already says auto, off, and manual. By adding the DPDT switch you can have the relay work off the ignition switch (automatic), completely off (full isolation), or manually closed (full time parallel). This is how my jeep is wired.

djhuff
03-27-2006, 01:32 PM
Diesel, I'm running the relay. Do you see any problem with energizing the relay with the "accessory" lead rather than the "run" lead from the ignition. Reason being, If the stereo battery is low and I try to start... the batteries will be in parrallel. Wouldn't this cause the starting battery to discharge into the stereo battery at the same time it is trying to start? I was thinking that if I use the accessory lead, when I turn the key to "start", the relay will be open, and the starting battery will be isolated while starting, but switched back to parrallel once the engine is running. I have nothing hooked up to the accessory switch right now (radio is solely hooked up to second battery with manual off/on switch). Thanks

Diesel
03-27-2006, 02:09 PM
Diesel, I'm running the relay. Do you see any problem with energizing the relay with the "accessory" lead rather than the "run" lead from the ignition. Reason being, If the stereo battery is low and I try to start... the batteries will be in parrallel. Wouldn't this cause the starting battery to discharge into the stereo battery at the same time it is trying to start? I was thinking that if I use the accessory lead, when I turn the key to "start", the relay will be open, and the starting battery will be isolated while starting, but switched back to parallel once the engine is running. I have nothing hooked up to the accessory switch right now (radio is solely hooked up to second battery with manual off/on switch). Thanks

I don't think the accessory lead on a boat works like an auto where it is not energized during start up?? When in the run or start position I think the accessory is still energized. I think the accessory and "run" are all the same when the key is to the right.

Actually now that I think about it you might be on to something here. I will have to get my fluke out to see what is going on in the ignition switch.

If I am wrong this is a very good way to alleviate the concern regarding large flows of current at start up.

Matt L.
03-27-2006, 03:42 PM
Okay, now my head is spinning from reading this stuff!!!

here is what I've got to work with.

Perko Switch, Optima Blue top starting batt, Deka AGM deep cycle.

I just want a system that will automatically disable the starting batt when the ignition is off, enable the deep cycle when the ignition is off, and charge both properly when running.

Is that too much to ask???!!!

Perko is under a seat (where kids/babies always end up falling asleep) and is a real PITA to remember to switch around.

I've got a boat and crew to manage (wife and 3 boys), I don't need to worry about the batteries too!!!

Thanks,

Matt

Diesel
03-27-2006, 03:54 PM
Okay, now my head is spinning from reading this stuff!!!

I just want a system that will automatically disable the starting batt when the ignition is off, enable the deep cycle when the ignition is off, and charge both properly when running.

Is that too much to ask???!!!



Buy the relay and wire it according to the first post and forget about it. ;)

djhuff
03-28-2006, 08:50 AM
Let me know what you find Diesel. I've got til Saturday to get this figured out before I christen the boat.

Matt L.
03-28-2006, 01:12 PM
Buy the relay and wire it according to the first post and forget about it. ;)

Dooh! I mean, Sweet!!! Sounds pretty simple then.

So when the relay is energized by the ignition switch I get both the starting batt and the deep cycle in parallel with both the starting and charging systems?

When the ignition system is off the relay opens between the starting and deep cycle batteries, leaving just the deepcycle batt exposed to discharge.

If that is all right then my only concern is for the deepcycle. Will it be exposed to the sudden and deep draw of the starter motor?!? If so, won't this damage the deep cycle?

I spent big bucks on these big AGM batteries and I don't want to ruin them. The boss....er wife will kill me if I have to explain why that $150+ deepcycle was ruined by adding the relay.

Could I add a second relay in the same manner as the first, but energizes to cut the deepcycle out when the starter motor circuit is energized?

Thanks,

Matt

Diesel
03-28-2006, 01:40 PM
Dooh! I mean, Sweet!!! Sounds pretty simple then.

So when the relay is energized by the ignition switch I get both the starting batt and the deep cycle in parallel with both the starting and charging systems? Yes

When the ignition system is off the relay opens between the starting and deep cycle batteries, leaving just the deepcycle batt exposed to discharge. Exactly

If that is all right then my only concern is for the deepcycle. Will it be exposed to the sudden and deep draw of the starter motor?!? If so, won't this damage the deep cycle? Not enough to matter. Your deep cycles will be fine.

I spent big bucks on these big AGM batteries and I don't want to ruin them. The boss....er wife will kill me if I have to explain why that $150+ deepcycle was ruined by adding the relay.

Could I add a second relay in the same manner as the first, but energizes to cut the deepcycle out when the starter motor circuit is energized? Not quite following you here but either way it is not necessary.

Thanks,

Matt

Response in blue above......

kalanic
04-17-2006, 10:43 AM
Finally finished my battery install between our crappy weather....hope it works!

Diesel
04-17-2006, 10:45 AM
Great looking install!! :)

I love those billet Optima trays and wish I had room to use a pair.

kalanic
04-17-2006, 10:56 AM
Thanks Diesel! Im gonna get another next year. I will see how the factory battery performs with the Optima supporting my high power amp. You think I will need to fabricate a cover for the Isolator?? Will water screw it up if it gets wet?

Leroy
04-17-2006, 11:07 AM
Diesel;

I think what Matt is concerned about and I think could be a concern, you run the deep discharge battery dead, then when you start not only is the current from your good battery starting the boat, but is surging into the dead battery. If you could delay the relay connection until the motor started there would only be one load at a time on the good battery.

Could I add a second relay in the same manner as the first, but energizes to cut the deepcycle out when the starter motor circuit is energized? Not quite following you here but either way it is not necessary.

Diesel
04-17-2006, 11:23 AM
Thanks Diesel! Im gonna get another next year. I will see how the factory battery performs with the Optima supporting my high power amp. You think I will need to fabricate a cover for the Isolator?? Will water screw it up if it gets wet?

No it is sealed. I would make sure that compartment is left open after a day on the water to help prevent terminal corrosion.

kalanic
04-17-2006, 11:24 AM
Right on Diesel...Thanks!

Diesel
04-17-2006, 11:31 AM
Diesel;

I think what Matt is concerned about and I think could be a concern, you run the deep discharge battery dead, then when you start not only is the current from your good battery starting the boat, but is surging into the dead battery. If you could delay the relay connection until the motor started there would only be one load at a time on the good battery.

Could I add a second relay in the same manner as the first, but energizes to cut the deepcycle out when the starter motor circuit is energized? Not quite following you here but either way it is not necessary.

If it is a concern just wire the DPDT switch in the dash and then you can manually engage the relay once the motor has started. I have a hard time remembering to hit the switch and have never had a problem with extreme current flow so I like the ease of wiring it to the ignition................fully automatic, i never have to think about it, and no matter who drives my boat (wife, friend, dad, etc.) I don't have to worry about explaining how to work the "Battery" switch.

Off the top of my head I can think of a couple a dozen set ups I have done that have never had any problem. In fact I have taken my aux battery in my Jeep to beyond dead with the winch and was still able to start the LT1 multiple times with no problem. I don't believe it is an issue. :)

BrianS
04-17-2006, 12:10 PM
Diesel;

I think what Matt is concerned about and I think could be a concern, you run the deep discharge battery dead, then when you start not only is the current from your good battery starting the boat, but is surging into the dead battery. If you could delay the relay connection until the motor started there would only be one load at a time on the good battery. [/color]

I was concerned with the same thing. I used this (http://www.yandina.com/c100Info.htm) instead of the relay. This combiner doesn't put the batteries in parallel until the motor is running, ie the alternator is charging the system. No chance of killing your starting battery with a drained aux battery. No switches needed, totally automatic and very simple to wire in.

zberger
04-17-2006, 03:12 PM
This is what I used..

Works awesome, easy to install.. and cheap!

I actually got the cheaper one.. which I will also post, the boat I used it in had a smaller alternator..

http://www.napaonline.com/MasterPages/NOLMaster.aspx?PageId=470&LineCode=BK&PartNumber=7821768&Description=Battery+Isolator

And since that link sucks.. I used the 34 dolla one..

Worked great all summer.. and hopefully when we pull the boat out here soon we'll be good to go!

djhuff
04-18-2006, 04:06 PM
I have one of my more electrical savy friends looking into a delay circuit to put in line with the ignition circuit to the relay. Looking at about 10 secs. I'll let you know what we come up with.

Diesel
04-18-2006, 05:47 PM
Cool, keep up posted. :)

JimN
04-18-2006, 06:17 PM
"Pulse Stretchers" are easily available from a lot of 12V suppliers. They're used in alarm and audio systems and one type I have seen goes from .1 sec to 10 sec and their other model goes from 5 sec to 50 sec. IIRC, the company is PAC. This circuit is also called a 555 timer, because that's the number of the chip used. TI makes them and I would think other companies, too. Timer circuits are in every basic circuit design book.

Diesel
04-18-2006, 06:25 PM
"Pulse Stretchers" are easily available from a lot of 12V suppliers. They're used in alarm and audio systems and one type I have seen goes from .1 sec to 10 sec and their other model goes from 5 sec to 50 sec. IIRC, the company is PAC. This circuit is also called a 555 timer, because that's the number of the chip used. TI makes them and I would think other companies, too. Timer circuits are in every basic circuit design book.

I guess we need to determine the amp draw to keep the relay engaged, which could be a challenge for many timer circuits. I have never seen a spec on the BW3098 so I guess I will have to get out the fluke when I get a chance to measure current draw. If I had to guess I would pu it in the 1-2amp range.

JimN
04-18-2006, 06:28 PM
The current isn't really much of an issue since a Bosch style relay (20-30A) could be used to latch the solenoid and a Bosch style (either that brand, Potter & Brumfeld, etc) draws about 150 mA, easily handled by the timer circuit.

Diesel
04-18-2006, 06:29 PM
The current isn't really much of an issue since a Bosch style relay (20-30A) could be used to latch the solenoid and a Bosch style (either that brand, Potter & Brumfeld, etc) draws about 150 mA, easily handled by the timer circuit.

True, true............

bikeman
07-24-2006, 01:04 AM
True, true............

Diesel, I have the same 95 Prostar 205 you used to have and would like to ask you some speaker placement/power questions. it seems you used to have components in the back, but your gallery doens't show if you had any others. Could you e-mail me at wakesurfin@gmail.com or should i start another thread? any help would be appreciated.

thanks!
Chris

Leroy
07-24-2006, 01:24 AM
Brian and zberber; These look pretty good and like they are meant for the purpose. I think Diesel is right this normally is not a problem.

I was concerned with the same thing. I used this (http://www.yandina.com/c100Info.htm) instead of the relay. This combiner doesn't put the batteries in parallel until the motor is running, ie the alternator is charging the system. No chance of killing your starting battery with a drained aux battery. No switches needed, totally automatic and very simple to wire in.

prostar205
07-27-2006, 01:59 PM
Well, after not listening to Diesel about the BW R3098 relay and using my Perko switch instead, I finally blew up the voltage regulator by attempting to start the boat with the Perko switch set to the OFF position. When you do this it grounds the negative side of your batteries directly into the alternator and blows the voltage regulator. I got that fixed for $40 and immediately went out and got the R3098 relay. I took the Perko switch out and installed the relay last night, along with the reworked alternator, and everything works great again.

Thanks again Diesel for this thread, it is a life saver.

You are the man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

edwinfuqua
07-29-2006, 01:52 AM
Nice-simple dual battery set-up. I can only ask, if in ACC mode and your ACC battery goes dead; what happens when you start your engine and the dead battery is connected by the relay (contactor for high AMP service) when you try to start? At that point the dead battery is being charged by the starter battery. Or did I read your schematic wrong. The starter battery should be the only battery used when starting and then both batteries should get equalized by the charging circuit. Hmmmm.

Edwin

edwinfuqua
07-29-2006, 02:12 AM
Just a thought, if using a SPST relay to isolate the batteries in the start and run positions, would it not be better to only select the start battery insteed of tieing two (ACC and Start) togather while starting? Start position should only select the start battery. In run position both batteries are used and charging. In ACC mode just the ACC battery is used. In start mode the main start relay would only select the start battery. Seems like that would take at least two contactors. Let me think upon it furthur.
Edwin

edwinfuqua
07-29-2006, 02:26 AM
I was concerned with the same thing. I used this (http://www.yandina.com/c100Info.htm) instead of the relay. This combiner doesn't put the batteries in parallel until the motor is running, ie the alternator is charging the system. No chance of killing your starting battery with a drained aux battery. No switches needed, totally automatic and very simple to wire in.
That's the ticket. Probally cheaper than a few relays, less relay knowledge and they work. I used one in a van and always had starter battery even when switch off and discharging the other playing the stereo. You might be able to do the same thing with 2 or 3 relays but the wireing could cause problems during installation.

edwinfuqua
07-29-2006, 02:38 AM
I was concerned with the same thing. I used this (http://www.yandina.com/c100Info.htm) instead of the relay. This combiner doesn't put the batteries in parallel until the motor is running, ie the alternator is charging the system. No chance of killing your starting battery with a drained aux battery. No switches needed, totally automatic and very simple to wire in.
When you use a battery isolator, relay or other system if you have two different size or type of battery eventually tied togather on one charging circuit you will have problems. The two batteries must be identical or you will have serious battery problems.

edwinfuqua
07-29-2006, 02:48 AM
Anyone have a comment or answer on my above posted question???
Batteries under the same charging circuit should be identical. Don't mix deep cycle and starter batteries. Either run all deep cycle or all start batteries. I like the six-pack style for my boat. They are made to handle a lot of vibration and don't seem to kill off by discharging below 9 vdc like most standard car batteries. Deep cycle batts don't have enough start capacity for HP motors. What ever you do, if you have them tied in parrallel while charging make sure they are all identical.
Edwin

Kyle's_prostar205
07-31-2006, 11:36 AM
Thanks for the help with this subject Diesel!

yzwiley
07-31-2006, 04:15 PM
This thread is so informative. Thank you to all that contributed, especially Diesel.

These past few weekends I've had some issues with the battery going low while achored and listing to the tunes. I now know what I need to do to fix the issue and will start on it today. You guys rock!!

My solution will be by adding an Optima battery as my auxillary and using the relay as suggested by Diesel.

Thanks again folks.

cmillertulsax2
04-23-2007, 12:49 PM
Is the purple wire from the ignition (described on the first page of this thread) that goes to the Borg relay the same as the remote power lead going to the amps?

shredit21
04-25-2007, 12:36 AM
Hey diesel, I want to put duals in my 92 ProSport. I was just tryin to understand the diagram you posted in the first posts, and was confused as to where you run the original positive and negative battery cables from the engine to battery. So if my setup right now is stock(one battery, all that good stuff) could you just try and set me straight in my confusion. Thanks alot. -Zach

Diesel
04-25-2007, 12:31 PM
Is the purple wire from the ignition (described on the first page of this thread) that goes to the Borg relay the same as the remote power lead going to the amps?

No. The remote turn on from the HU cannot handle the amp draw of the relay.

Diesel
04-25-2007, 12:34 PM
Hey diesel, I want to put duals in my 92 ProSport. I was just tryin to understand the diagram you posted in the first posts, and was confused as to where you run the original positive and negative battery cables from the engine to battery. So if my setup right now is stock(one battery, all that good stuff) could you just try and set me straight in my confusion. Thanks alot. -Zach

Leave them the same as factory. No need to change.

lawdcdpc
04-30-2007, 01:31 PM
Diesal:

Talked to my MC Service Department at local dealer and they do not know what a relay is? Are you still recommending the Borg Warner R3098? Any idea why MC Service department does not know how to install relay? If MC service can't or won't install the relay, any other suggestions?

Daniel

Diesel
04-30-2007, 01:46 PM
Diesal:

Talked to my MC Service Department at local dealer and they do not know what a relay is? Are you still recommending the Borg Warner R3098? Any idea why MC Service department does not know how to install relay? If MC service can't or won't install the relay, any other suggestions?

Daniel

I'd find another service department. :confused:

Do they have an internet connection? If so I would send them a link to this thread. Don't let them sell you a perko..........lol.

unclefud
10-31-2007, 12:33 AM
Diesel,
Found your post while trying to find info on installing dual batteries on my Cobalt. Needless to say, I am not electrically inclined and am not famaliar with you term "head unit" in this article.
Thanks for your reply,
Unclefud

Chas
10-31-2007, 01:16 PM
I throw this in for what it's worth - may very well be nothing...

On one or two aircraft I have wrenched on there is a complete second battery system. I saw a similar system on an offshore fishing boat I helped a friend with some years ago. Sounds complex, but it's really not. They added a second battery and a second alternator.

Now before you rule this out, think about it: the second alternator doesn't have to have the high amp capacity of the primary one, it could be an inexpensive unit. I admit that mounting it might be a pain.

The wiring is always controlled by switches in aircraft - they assume the pilot is using a checklist at just about all times, so remembering when to turn things on and off is not a problem, but in a boat, I could imagine wiring the second battery and second alternator together would make it fully automatic: you could run the stereo all day, powering all sound gear from the second battery, and nothing happens until the other battery starts the engine. At that point the second alternator simply begins charging the second battery.

The only difference I see in this and the system proposed at the top of the thread is that the two batteries are truly isolated, so there is no chance of forgetting to turn one off or on, also it doesn't matter if they are matched batteries, or if you have three batteries to run the sound system and one for starting...

Also this would eliminate any potential problem with the high amp flow that is inevitable when the relay closes between two batteries with one battery being dead and the other fully or well charged. At no pont are the two batteries ever interconnected.

I know it has worked for you for years, so I have to imagine that the high flow from the good battery to the low one is not doing any harm, but I could sure see myself running the sound system battery dead, and then turning the key to the 'on' position yet not starting the boat right up. I do this now on my other boat to lower the drive and get one of the two bilge blowers on. I know, that could and should change. But I just can imagine myself emptying the good battery into the bad one.

Free - toss it if you wish.

TX.X-30 fan
10-31-2007, 03:13 PM
If you want a bullet proof system this is it!

28778

Alt.' regulator and echo charger for the starter batt/house.

They offer all sizes of systems, you may not need the 150amp I use so calculate the draw and your done.

All I added to this set-up was (2) 2400 amp/hr kinetics agm batteries to run the stereo. I have never had a problem, run the stereo swimming for hrs. :D Starter batt. is always full.

These are reliable systems used on yachts.

Ric
10-31-2007, 04:44 PM
Diesel,
Found your post while trying to find info on installing dual batteries on my Cobalt. Needless to say, I am not electrically inclined and am not famaliar with you term "head unit" in this article.
Thanks for your reply,
Unclefud welcome fud, some people speak a little bit suggestively around here and I speak for all of us when I apologize for diesel using that type of reference in his posts

TX.X-30 fan
10-31-2007, 05:57 PM
Probably got one of those eyeball pm's in the old in-box. :D


Not that I have a clue what that means. :rolleyes:

VOLFAN
01-17-2008, 10:12 PM
I have quickly glanced over this thread. Let me know if what I have found is correct.

Only use the same type battery?
I should in NO way use a starter battery and a Deep Cycle battery together?

(Optima highly preferred)(Where can I get one?)
Which two would be better and keep your Acc.'s going the longest and still be able to start the boat? 2x deepcycle or 2x starting?

Ther Perko switch is not that great of an idea the relay is better?

I have just installed an Amp and Sub in my boat and it killed the battery in about 2 minutes. Seems the boat has a low voltage shut off, because when it got below 8 volts it kicked everything off.

rwoznock
01-20-2008, 10:06 AM
One of the first things I did when I bought my Maristar last year was put in a stereo with power amps and added another battery with a Perko switch. The problem with mine was the Maristar has the electric pump to raise the motor cover and thats wher I mounted the Perko. For 1000 reasons, sometimes we'd forget to turn the switch to save the extra battery and played the stereo all day without running. There were a few days where be barely had enough juice to start the boat! I found this thread and sought out to buy the relay. I'm in PA and I had trouble finding this part. All 6 of the auto part stores I went to told me they stopped making this device, but one place crossed it to a new number by another manufacturer. Advance auto had 1 of these left which was in Kentucky, so I had them send it up and I installed it yesterday. Thanks to Desiel for his knowledge on this project! IMO the Perko switch does a good job if you remember to keep switching it but this is definately the way to go. Anybody need a Perko switch? LOL!

VOLFAN
02-27-2008, 11:03 PM
Ok I am have yet to buy two batteries for the boat. I am getting ready to come off the hip to buy them. I have heard you guys rave about Optima batteries. My question is why does it say 55 Apm hours on the Optima and the battery almost a 4th of the cost says 115 amp hours? Am I missing something?

Also I have added a temporary setup for now.
I got a Rockford Fosgate punch 100 (old school amp) pushing a 12" sub
and another small amp for the tower speakers.

Do you think I will will have any problem out of the alternator?

My plans are to add two optima D34M batteris. The cheapest I have been able to find these is for 155.00 a piece. Is that a good deal? Or can I find them cheaper somewhere else?

Also I am going to go with the Perko switch, because I have no idea how to run the wiring from the back of the ignition swith through out the boat to the batteries for the relay that has been talked about.

rwoznock
02-27-2008, 11:30 PM
Hey Volfan,

Think about the relay, it really wasn't hard I just took out the ignition switch and with a test light found the contact that was powered when the key was on and ran the wire down the side of the boat to the engine compartment and connected it. It really wasn't bad. If you really want the Perko switch, I could send you the one I removed. It's about 1 1/2 years old but it would only cost you whatever the shipping costs would be.

On the batteries, I went to the auto parts store and told the guy I wanted to see the marine batteries and I asked if they sold the optima's. He said yes they did and I asked him if they were worth the money? He laughed and said the owner of the store gets 2 every year for his boat. I said every year? He said yes. I figure I could buy 3 new $55.00 ones and take my chances! Let me know if you want the Perko switch.

Ron

2000XPSD
03-01-2008, 02:44 PM
for the relay power wire form the ignition switch what is the easiest way to run it? i have a 04 x2 and the battery is under the spotters seat. I was going to run it up to the bow and then back down the other side but the seat pads are bolted (except for the very front seat which slides up) and i don't see an easy way of getting them off...and I can't stick my fat hands up there to feed the wire thru the looms.
any ideas...easier to find a source wire in the engine comp and run it up from there? anybody have schematics?

rwoznock
03-02-2008, 08:41 AM
Hey Volfan,

I have two Rockford Fosgate amps in my boat, a 360aII and a 160aII and have no problems.

07Pro-V
02-09-2009, 05:36 PM
quick question that i am pretty sure i know the answer to it all ready but just makin sure. with the set up u posted at the very beginning of the post. Will it be fine if one of the batteries is a different size/brand then another?

JimN
02-09-2009, 06:09 PM
NO! They need to be the same. You will also need to upgrade the charging lead.

TX.X-30 fan
02-09-2009, 06:09 PM
You need a battery or two if you like to float/ swim for extended times. The battery needs to output its rated output until its toast or you will kill amps.

brucemac
02-09-2009, 06:43 PM
so this thread has me a bit concerned now.

i'm doing another stereo upgrade and now i'm concerned about my alternator and the charging lead. how do I tell the output of the alternator on my 2003 X-2's MCX? I guess I always assumed it was 90amps.

i'm replacing one of my amps and adding a new one with a pair of tower speakers.

it will be 1000W RMS on one amp (200x2@4ohms and 600x1@4ohms) and ~400W RMS (200x2@2ohms) on the 2nd. i'll never see that kind of output though. the smaller amp is a class AB and the larger one is a Class G/H amp with regulated power supplies and fans.

jim, you're going to tell me I need to change my charging lead aren't you?

i'm using 2 optima blue top d34M's with a surepower 1314 battery seperator

JimN
02-09-2009, 06:46 PM
I would. Adding current draw will increase the charging current, and the OEM lead is only sized for what they anticipate.

brucemac
02-09-2009, 06:55 PM
shucks i knew you were going to say that :p

gosh darn it

jim, is it easy enough to confirm to the alternator's rated output by looking at it? anybody know if there was a certain standard size for mcx for my model year?

one thing that's odd is the little stock fuse/circuit breaker right next to the starting battery is only 50 amps.

TX.X-30 fan
02-09-2009, 07:27 PM
shucks i knew you were going to say that :p

gosh darn it

jim, is it easy enough to confirm to the alternator's rated output by looking at it? anybody know if there was a certain standard size for mcx for my model year?

one thing that's odd is the little stock fuse/circuit breaker right next to the starting battery is only 50 amps.





My 04 was a 70 amp and I think in 05 or 06 they went to 90. Bet yours is 70, look in your manual mine was listed there.

JimN
02-09-2009, 08:12 PM
shucks i knew you were going to say that :p

gosh darn it

jim, is it easy enough to confirm to the alternator's rated output by looking at it? anybody know if there was a certain standard size for mcx for my model year?

one thing that's odd is the little stock fuse/circuit breaker right next to the starting battery is only 50 amps.

Call MC. I was under the impression they had upped the capacity to 90A or 95A. The 50A breaker is for the accessory harness, IIRC.

TX.X-30 fan
02-09-2009, 08:28 PM
Call MC. I was under the impression they had upped the capacity to 90A or 95A. The 50A breaker is for the accessory harness, IIRC.

Is this thing on???????


Do you have me on ignore???? :D


Its in the engine spec part of the owners manual, and my 04said 70!!!! :confused:

BriEOD
02-09-2009, 08:34 PM
What do you suggest for a charging lead Jim?

brucemac
02-09-2009, 09:28 PM
ha ha sorry tx.x-30 fan, no not on ignore and you're right. pulled out my owner's manual and the specs state it's 70 amp output at 2000 rpms....

i tried to see if i could read the red fat wire coming off of it, but it doesn't list the gauge, at least the part that's exposed it looks pretty big though, but without seeing the actual wire, who knows. it could just be really insulated.

so now what? 70 amps? am i in trouble here?

JimN
02-09-2009, 09:40 PM
Is this thing on???????


Do you have me on ignore???? :D


Its in the engine spec part of the owners manual, and my 04said 70!!!! :confused:

"Me, me, me- it's all about me!" Stuart.

Lighten up, Francis. I started to post and couldn't finish until after you had added yours, so I didn't know about your info. :D

JimN
02-09-2009, 09:42 PM
I think they came with 8 ga, so I would probably go to 6 ga. Yeah, it can be a PITA but it avoids problems.

brucemac
02-09-2009, 09:47 PM
jim you don't think i'll have issues with the 70 amp alternator do you? i'm not the guy that goes around blasting his stereo all day, but i would like to feel confident that i can listen to it at reasonable to loud volumes a couple times a year on houseboat trips and such without ruining my alternator, or hanging out and listening, starting, cruising, listening, etc.

the larger 1000W amp is supposed to be super efficient, class G/H

JimN
02-09-2009, 09:59 PM
"i'm not the guy that goes around blasting his stereo all day, but i would like to feel confident that i can listen to it at reasonable to loud volumes a couple times a year on houseboat trips and such without ruining my alternator, or hanging out and listening, starting, cruising, listening, etc."

"it will be 1000W RMS on one amp (200x2@4ohms and 600x1@4ohms) and ~400W RMS (200x2@2ohms) on the 2nd. i'll never see that kind of output though. the smaller amp is a class AB and the larger one is a Class G/H amp with regulated power supplies and fans."

If I hear your stereo up here, I will publicly post it here.

Measure the voltage drop at the battery when you start the motor and turn all of the accessories on. If it drops more than a few volts, adding current draw will only make it worse. At higher RPM, it does produce more voltage and current but you need to deal with the draw at idle in order to not cause it to drop too low.

What is the total of the fuse values on the amps?

07Pro-V
02-09-2009, 10:01 PM
how about if u are using a battery isolator do the batteries still need me be the same then or is it ok to use different ones?

brucemac
02-09-2009, 10:05 PM
the larger G/H has (4) 30 amp and the smaller AB amp has (1) 30 or 40 amp, i'd have to look again, it's not on their specs.

TX.X-30 fan
02-09-2009, 10:12 PM
"Me, me, me- it's all about me!" Stuart.

Lighten up, Francis. I started to post and couldn't finish until after you had added yours, so I didn't know about your info. :D



Could you see my bloomers under that tennis shirt?? 8p

JimN
02-09-2009, 10:17 PM
the larger G/H has (4) 30 amp and the smaller AB amp has (1) 30 or 40 amp, i'd have to look again, it's not on their specs.

So, at 1/2 of worst case current draw, they could draw 50A-70A by themselves. If you're running at idle, your fuel pump, ECM, ignition system, lights and any other accessories could be drawing 25A-40A. The math doesn't make it look good for a 70A alternator. The batteries will fill in as a reserve tank but once they need to be recharged, it adds to the load.

JimN
02-09-2009, 10:18 PM
Could you see my bloomers under that tennis shirt?? 8p

I wondered what the pink reflection was when I looked at the sky. :wavey:

JimN
02-09-2009, 11:00 PM
how about if u are using a battery isolator do the batteries still need me be the same then or is it ok to use different ones?

If they're not in the same condition, one will always be an additional load.

brucemac
02-11-2009, 03:13 PM
i was able to read the charging lead cable to the battery and it's 2 ga, so i'm covered. yay!

now i'm crossing my fingers my alternator can keep up. guess we'll know soon enough. :D

JimN
02-11-2009, 04:12 PM
i was able to read the charging lead cable to the battery and it's 2 ga, so i'm covered. yay!

now i'm crossing my fingers my alternator can keep up. guess we'll know soon enough. :D

If you're referring to the one that goes from the battery to the starter, that's not it. You want to look at the one from the alternator to the starter.

Sodar
02-11-2009, 04:15 PM
how about if u are using a battery isolator do the batteries still need me be the same then or is it ok to use different ones?

I have the same question.

From what I read earlier in the thread, if there is an isolator in place, then you are covered... if not, the batteries need to be like kind.

I will be using an Optima D34M in conjunction with my stock battery... hopefully I am OK. If not, I guess I will be getting a second Optima to replace my 1 year new stock battery! :mad:

brucemac
02-11-2009, 04:54 PM
sodar, jimn will probably chime in, but i've always been told they need to be the same. i think ultimately it depends on what type of isolator or combiner you choose along with how you intend to charge them off the water.

brucemac
02-11-2009, 08:00 PM
If you're referring to the one that goes from the battery to the starter, that's not it. You want to look at the one from the alternator to the starter.

oh, then i misunderstood. i'll have to look. that's not difficult to change is it? maybe a back breaker, but is there something special about the connections or something?

Sodar
02-13-2009, 04:26 PM
I had some trouble locating the Borg Warner Relay that Diesel posted, so I started looking at other options.

Blue Sea System has an Automatic Charging/Isolator Relay that lists at West Marine for $100... too much.

So, I started searching and found it for $65 here (http://www.marineboatsupplies.com/blue-solenoid-series-120a-1224v-p-7402.html)

The site says that it is backordered, but I received mine in 3 days.

The Blue Seas Systems unit looks GREAT, so I am thinking I am going to mount it in plain site, rather than having to hide the Borg Warner unit.

http://shop.pkys.com/ProductImages/blue_sea_products/7610.jpg

TX.X-30 fan
02-13-2009, 06:02 PM
You just run a cord to that thing?

Sodar
02-13-2009, 06:09 PM
No, two positive cables, a negative wire and an ignition wire... pretty much just like the Borg unit, only it has a neat little cover to pretty it up a bit!

http://www.marineboatsupplies.com/images/30594.gif

sand2snow22
02-13-2009, 06:09 PM
Sodar, what kind of battery is your stock battery? Is it a Deka? If so, IMO I would get a second Deko over an optima. I looked at Optimas and Odysseys, but after reading a thread on WW and talking with my dealer, I've decided to stick with the Deka's.

Sodar
02-13-2009, 06:11 PM
Sodar, what kind of battery is your stock battery? Is it a Deka? If so, IMO I would get a second Deko over an optima. I looked at Optimas and Odysseys, but after reading a thread on WW and talking with my dealer, I've decided to stick with the Deka's.

I am not sure. It is the stock battery, straight from the factory. I have never popped the battery area to see what it is.

sand2snow22
02-13-2009, 06:13 PM
Ask Erkle what they use. Here is the WW thread:

http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/665702.html

TX.X-30 fan
02-13-2009, 06:42 PM
No, two positive cables, a negative wire and an ignition wire... pretty much just like the Borg unit, only it has a neat little cover to pretty it up a bit!

http://www.marineboatsupplies.com/images/30594.gif




I got it that instead of the red perko I have to isolate my starter. I also use an echo charger so the starter gets a trickle back from the stereo batteries and starter battery stays 100%

Been a while but Diesel didn't like the perko right? Going on my forth year and nothing from the switch.

Edit I also have a regulator off the alternator that gives a digital readout of the alt output and a bunch of other crap I don't use, but its high on the cool factor.

Sodar
02-13-2009, 06:48 PM
You started drinking, yet?

TX.X-30 fan
02-13-2009, 06:52 PM
Yes but I'm naturally slow if that's your point. :D

Sodar
02-13-2009, 06:56 PM
I was talking about your post. I cannot follow it?

Is my interpretation correct?

I got it that instead of the red perko I have to isolate my starter.(You understand where I am going to be using the relay?) I also use an echo charger so the starter gets a trickle back from the stereo batteries and stays 100%. (You use a charger to keep your batteries 100%)

Been a while but Diesel didn't like the perko right? (Yes, diesel don't like the Perko) Going on my forth year and nothing from the switch. (You have a Perko switch, but have gone 4 years without issue?)

TX.X-30 fan
02-13-2009, 07:03 PM
Where are you using the relay, I missed some of this earlier obviously. yes perko has been fine, hell it does not do much to screw up. I do use a trickle charger in the off season and a few time during the summer if we hammer the batts and head back in with no time to recharge them.

sand2snow22
02-13-2009, 07:46 PM
I do use a trickle charger in the off season

You have an off season? That's due to lack of water, right :mad:

Sodar
02-13-2009, 08:04 PM
Where are you using the relay, I missed some of this earlier obviously. yes perko has been fine, hell it does not do much to screw up. I do use a trickle charger in the off season and a few time during the summer if we hammer the batts and head back in with no time to recharge them.

Noted.

The isolator will be used to isolate my stereo battery from my starter battery. It automatically connects the two batteries in parallel when it senses a charge and disconnects it when there is not.

TX.X-30 fan
02-13-2009, 08:31 PM
Gotcha, I do it different even though my starter battery is a stand alone. With the echo charger is bleeds back a trickle to the starter if it senses a drop in the starter battery charge. I get a flashing green light when its charging the starter batt and a solid light when that batt is full.

I have a problem only when the whole system drops below 11.5 amp output, the stereo batteries will output 12 until the are almost fully discharged. That is what gives me the hours of tunes floating. I spent more on the two stereo batteries instead of doing a row of cheaper batteries.

I have posted the setup before and its bulletproof.

brucemac
02-13-2009, 09:28 PM
i don't get it. what's the difference between that and a seperator?

TX.X-30 fan
02-13-2009, 09:44 PM
You have an off season? That's due to lack of water, right :mad:




No off season I'm a pu$$y about cold water. I getting the spring suit ready for the next warm Saturday OK. :D

I believe its 52 water right now, we have had a brutal winter. :D

JimN
02-13-2009, 10:28 PM
No off season I'm a pu$$y about cold water. I getting the spring suit ready for the next warm Saturday OK. :D

I believe its 52 water right now, we have had a brutal winter. :D

Brutal. What, you got down to 30, once? We didn't get over 20 degrees for 45 days. We also got over 36" of snow in December alone. Lake Michigan was frozen out to 100 yards from shore.

Look like someone needs a Snuggie!

sand2snow22
02-14-2009, 01:43 AM
I believe its 52 water right now, we have had a brutal winter. :D

I'd be in a drysuit :D

TX.X-30 fan
02-14-2009, 10:08 AM
Brutal. What, you got down to 30, once? We didn't get over 20 degrees for 45 days. We also got over 36" of snow in December alone. Lake Michigan was frozen out to 100 yards from shore.

Look like someone needs a Snuggie!



We have been freezing 3 or 4 times I'll have you know. :D


I'm not sure I'd ever get laid again if I wore that thing. :D

bxroads
07-02-2009, 09:02 PM
I'm using the "dumb" relay (Diesel's system). The only battery I currently have is the factory starting battery. I have amps already wired to it (starting battery). Is there any reason that I can't leave the ground cables running from the amps to the factory starting battery? It sure will save a lot of hassle.

BriEOD
07-02-2009, 10:49 PM
It shouldn't matter. IMO.

JimN
07-02-2009, 11:00 PM
I'm using the "dumb" relay (Diesel's system). The only battery I currently have is the factory starting battery. I have amps already wired to it (starting battery). Is there any reason that I can't leave the ground cables running from the amps to the factory starting battery? It sure will save a lot of hassle.

As long as there's no resistance while the audio system is on, it shouldn't be a problem. The resistance doesn't matter as much at rest but when current is flowing, any resistance will cause a voltage drop, which will be made up wherever possible. This opens the door for ground loops and noise, usually pops/clicks when flipping switches and alternator whine.

The best way is to wire the audio system + and - cables to whatever battery is supplying voltage/current to it and connect that battery to the switch, with a heavy ground cable to a common location for all batteries.

Patrick Hardy
07-03-2009, 10:32 AM
I am also installing the battery relay - a PAC 200- per Diesel's dual battery System thread. I have a couple of ?'s. 1) in Diesel's first diagram he shows no fuses in the connections between the batteries positive post and the relay - page 1 / diagram 1. But in the instructions that came with the relay they show it fused at both connections per the diagram below. Is that being overly cautious? or is that something Diesel forgot and I should do? 2) I was at a MC dealership / parts dept. yesterday looking at batteries and was told that MC is now installing and recommending that only Starting/cranking batteries be used in multi battery systems. I thought that was weird, no deep cycle batteries were even sold there. Isn't that defeating the purpose of the different battery types? Anyone else hear this? Your thoughts on running starting batteries for your stereo systems?

JimN
07-03-2009, 01:32 PM
I am also installing the battery relay - a PAC 200- per Diesel's dual battery System thread. I have a couple of ?'s. 1) in Diesel's first diagram he shows no fuses in the connections between the batteries positive post and the relay - page 1 / diagram 1. But in the instructions that came with the relay they show it fused at both connections per the diagram below. Is that being overly cautious? or is that something Diesel forgot and I should do? 2) I was at a MC dealership / parts dept. yesterday looking at batteries and was told that MC is now installing and recommending that only Starting/cranking batteries be used in multi battery systems. I thought that was weird, no deep cycle batteries were even sold there. Isn't that defeating the purpose of the different battery types? Anyone else hear this? Your thoughts on running starting batteries for your stereo systems?

Hey- nice Vette!

The fuse or breaker should be no more than 12" from the positive battery post. That's according to the MECP training and long experience with seeing burned vehicles. Overly cautious means still alive, in a lot of cases.

TallRedRider
07-03-2009, 05:09 PM
I was at a MC dealership / parts dept. yesterday looking at batteries and was told that MC is now installing and recommending that only Starting/cranking batteries be used in multi battery systems. I thought that was weird, no deep cycle batteries were even sold there. Isn't that defeating the purpose of the different battery types? Anyone else hear this? Your thoughts on running starting batteries for your stereo systems?

In reality there is probably not much difference in the batteries, but I think if you kill the batteries often, a deep cycle makes more sense, and should be able to withstand the full drain more times than a cranking battery. Whether that is true in 'real life' is a little uncertain to me, but I would do it. I am big on keeping all of the batteries the same...a deep cycle is going to start the boat just fine. Just look at the CCA and such. I would do all deep cycles.

Mine has 2 cranking batteries...no problems so far and they are 3 years old, but I know the previous owner did not tax the batteries the way I do. Most of my loud music is only when the engine is on, so although I flow a lot more power through them, they do not get fully discharged.


Hey- nice Vette!

The fuse or breaker should be no more than 12" from the positive battery post. That's according to the MECP training and long experience with seeing burned vehicles. Overly cautious means still alive, in a lot of cases.

Agreed. Do the fuse.

Patrick Hardy
07-03-2009, 07:59 PM
So just to get this right, I will have it fused no more than 12" from both batteries positive connections to the relay and a circuit breaker no more than 12" from battery #2 on the positive connection to my amps? Thanks for all the help on this.

JimN
07-03-2009, 09:17 PM
So just to get this right, I will have it fused no more than 12" from both batteries positive connections to the relay and a circuit breaker no more than 12" from battery #2 on the positive connection to my amps? Thanks for all the help on this.

Think about what would happen if the positive cable is somehow cut and shorts to ground. With only one side protected, the other battery will send everything it has to ground. A cable will dump a lot of current when this happens and if it exceeds the cables capacity, the resistance causes the cable to get hot and if there's no way to cut the current flow, the insulation will burn and take the boat with it. The only time this will stop is when the wire is thin enough to fuse, which breaks the connection.

Personally, I like breakers. They can be reset, they can be opened when work is done to the system and if it opens, it doesn't cost $8 to buy another one.

scramison
07-29-2009, 09:17 PM
I have a question. What happens if you occasionally charge a starting and deep cell battery in parrellel? I have a starting and deep cell setup right now and have been keeping the perko switch on the deep cell. Only switch to the cranking if the deep cell is dead. I know some people have said not to do it but I want to understand why and the effects if anyone knows.

JimN
07-29-2009, 09:20 PM
I have a question. What happens if you occasionally charge a starting and deep cell battery in parrellel? I have a starting and deep cell setup right now and have been keeping the perko switch on the deep cell. Only switch to the cranking if the deep cell is dead. I know some people have said not to do it but I want to understand why and the effects if anyone knows.

You mean charging it using the alternator? It beats the crap out of the alternator and won't charge them as well as they need because unless the alternator can support a lot of current and they're isolated, one will always draw more than the other.

Cranking batteries exist for a reason- they deliver high current quickly and recover quickly. A deep cycle is usually made to deliver current over a longer time period and recover after being discharged deeper than a cranking battery. If you really want more info about your specific batteries, contact the manufacturer and tell them what the item number is.

scramison
07-29-2009, 09:28 PM
Jim if I run an isolator or relay instead of the perko switch will I be able to run the cranking and deep cell? Or should I try to just get another deep cell or go all cranking? The deep cell I have is huge and gives me 710 CCA with 150 mins at 25 amps that is why the cranking is more of a back up.

JimN
07-29-2009, 10:15 PM
Jim if I run an isolator or relay instead of the perko switch will I be able to run the cranking and deep cell? Or should I try to just get another deep cell or go all cranking? The deep cell I have is huge and gives me 710 CCA with 150 mins at 25 amps that is why the cranking is more of a back up.

If you get to the point where the big deep cycle is low (never kill it completely), just switch over to the cranking battery and run it back home. When you do this, use a charger on the deep cycle.

JJMorris3
02-25-2010, 12:36 AM
I have a 1994 Prostar 205. I installed a sony marine receiver (just a simple head, no amp, etc) and powered it from the harness that was labeled behind the dash. It powers when the key is in acc or ignition is on. I hooked up the memory thru the acc1 switch so I could control it - leaving it on during outings so I can set presets at the beginning of the day and they stay, but I can turn it off and know that I have zero drain.
I would like to add a dual battery with the relay setup because it seems like great piece of mind. In reading the instructions, I see that they say to move accessories to the second battery. Well, I went to the battery and expected to see additional wires for the accessories. But there is just one big cable on each battery terminal. There is an accessory wire dangling with a fuse on it that is not attached to the battery. it runs up the drivers side and under the dash. It is cut and capped there.
Do I need a dual battery setup for such a small radio? Should I wire just the radio to the second battery using the unused wires rather than the dash/harness? And leave all other things as they are? Then the second battery will be for JUST my radio?
I was hoping I could feed all accessories somehow by using the harness. I would need to know where the harness gets its power for the accessories and hook the secondary battery up there. Then I would have the dual battery protection when I used lights too while floating at night with the motor off.

rspiecha
02-25-2010, 05:38 PM
Having owned a 1994 Prostar 205, there no convenient place to put a second battery. I would get one of those portable jump battery pack and keep it under the seat for situations where a second battery would come in handy. With your stereo configuration, it would take a very long time to drain the battery, unless you have a weak battery to start off with.

Rob

JJMorris3
02-25-2010, 06:03 PM
Thanks for the reply. I might just do that. I am also a bit nervous about adding a relay in the compartment behind the back seat where the gas tank is. If that thing arcs while there are fumes built up in that compartment that would not be good!

brucemac
02-25-2010, 06:25 PM
there are plenty of ignition safe combiner seperator options out there. just be sure to make sure it is and is rated for your alternator and you're golden.

5280Hawk
02-25-2010, 10:24 PM
Wow, there is alot to take in, in here. I have a few comments, as i am about to install another battery.

I am doing a Perko switch the "1/2/both/off" type. Someone earlier in the thread said they fried their voltage regulator in their alternator by trying to start their boat with the switch set to "off" how is that possible? In the "off" position BOTH batteries should completely isolated from the Boat, so you'd have no power,...right?

I understand you can do damage by switching the Perko to "off" if the boat is running, but not the other way.

Also with the switch you are isolating the Batteries from each other, but (at least the way im doing it) the rest of the boat's systems are going to be connected by the comm. post on the Perko. So I will be able to start the boat, run the stereo, lights, pumps, etc. with either battery, or both at the same time (not practical, or likely).

If you are on the "both" position, the Batteries are connected in parallel, and that will cause them to "equalize" the weaker drawing charge from the stronger which can be damaging if one is way down and pulls very rapidly, but what don't get is .....How does that efffect the Alternator as someone mentioned earlier??? Thanks guys this is a great thread.

brucemac
02-25-2010, 10:39 PM
i'll take a shot at this. it's usually not an issue with the alternator unless you are running a larger stereo system with multiple batteries. if the stereo bank of batteries is constantly being drained down to low levels and the combiner combines both banks because the starting battery is full, then the alternator is constantly overworked with the engine on. stock alternators are not capable or designed to recharge multiple heavily drained batteries while maintaining electronics, guages, ballast and bilge pumps, etc. that's why if you're serious about your tunes and your stereo, you need to protect your investment by having a recharging routine off the water with a battery charger. most people don't consider upgrading their boat's charging system unless they're working with fairly large stereo system.

if you're going to go to the trouble of installing a second battery and a manual switch, i'd definitely consider adding a combiner/seperator. it will give you peace of mind, elminate the need to have to mess with the switch to charge and you'll still have the switch to turn everything "off" and manual combine in an emergency start situation.

someone else will probably come along and put in their two cents, but that's how i understand it.

TX.X-30 fan
02-25-2010, 10:48 PM
Nice Bruce. More alt. is a good thing with these over-the-top stereo systems.

thatsmrmastercraft
02-25-2010, 11:18 PM
i'll take a shot at this. it's usually not an issue with the alternator unless you are running a larger stereo system with multiple batteries. if the stereo bank of batteries is constantly being drained down to low levels and the combiner combines both banks because the starting battery is full, then the alternator is constantly overworked with the engine on. stock alternators are not capable or designed to recharge multiple heavily drained batteries while maintaining electronics, guages, ballast and bilge pumps, etc. that's why if you're serious about your tunes and your stereo, you need to protect your investment by having a recharging routine off the water with a battery charger. most people don't consider upgrading their boat's charging system unless they're working with fairly large stereo system.

if you're going to go to the trouble of installing a second battery and a manual switch, i'd definitely consider adding a combiner/seperator. it will give you peace of mind, elminate the need to have to mess with the switch to charge and you'll still have the switch to turn everything "off" and manual combine in an emergency start situation.

someone else will probably come along and put in their two cents, but that's how i understand it.

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Very well said.

5280Hawk
02-25-2010, 11:54 PM
The big reason Im Adding a Battery and the switch is peace of mind on the water. I dont have a BIG stereo - Im running basically two 6" speakers in the bow, and two in the aft and one sub, all from a single amp. I plan on adding two 6.5" speakers on the tower, and another amp. I also want to add a Light bar, possibly some underwater LED's.

I plan to use the switch to go to the second battery to play music, run lights ect. while floating around on the lake while the boat is off, saving the primary battery to ensure i have starting power when its time to go home. The perko was the best deal, and the easiest to wire up.

Have any of you guys used a bus bar set-up to manage the wiring when you have alot of "add-ons"?

brucemac
02-26-2010, 12:29 AM
adding a combiner along with that switch isn't all that much more difficult and can used to achieve exactly what you're after with one great benefit: you don't have to mess with the switch or remember to change positions. get in your boat, turn it to "1" and enjoy your day. come home turn it to off, charge your batteries, etc. just saying it's not much more money and well worth it imo.

BriEOD
02-26-2010, 07:12 AM
Nice Bruce. More alt. is a good thing with these over-the-top stereo systems.

Don't forget to increase the charging lead as well.

bturner2
02-26-2010, 09:17 AM
I did the Blue Seas "add a battery" kit. If it wasn't for the poor wiring that I started with (see attached link for the details) this would have been an easy job that I could have completed in a couple hours.

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=29889&highlight=battery

There have been several other members that have installed this system and seem to be happy with the results.

JohnE
02-26-2010, 09:56 AM
So I've read this thread once or twice a year for almost 4 years now....Each year I plan on installing it, then end up with a new boat instead.

I'm going to do Diesel's relay before the season starts. I think I am going to install a pushbutton switch in series with the purple ignition wire. Essentially the same as the OP, but when I know I've been floating for a while I can push the button while starting to keep the current from rushing from one battery to the other until the boat is started. Simpler than a timer/ relay combination. If someone else happens to start the boat or I forget to push the button, no harm done. But I'm sure I can get in the habit of using it when I think I've drained the battery substantially.

I just need to find a decent (normally closed) push button switch.....

BriEOD
02-26-2010, 11:00 AM
Hey John the path to he'll is paved with good intentions...I guess we'll see if you do this.

JJMorris3
03-07-2010, 11:57 AM
I have a 1994 Prostar 205. I am adding a second battery but I need help identifying the power lead that feeds acc1, acc2, and lights off the harness so that I can attach them to the second battery. Can anyone help?

BamaCraft
03-11-2010, 04:47 PM
Why are you doing that for? Are you dedicating one BTY for somethings and another for something else? I just put dual BTYs in my 92 Prostar 205. I used a Perko but did not dedicate any sources directly. I basically run BTY1 Saturday, BTY 2 Sunday...I alternate but always charge both with a 2 amp charger after use. Just curious as to your usage or plan with the 2 BTY setup.

JJMorris3
03-11-2010, 05:44 PM
Hi Bama. I would like to use the relay setup that I learned about on this site instead of the perko option. Once it is all setup, it seems like a set it and forget it setup. Let me know if you would like to know more about that.
Glad to have found you to discuss the specifics though with this type of boat! Your approach is simple and clean too. By the way, did you mount another battery in the stern? I am considering relocating my battery to under the passenger seat. Having a battery in a closed compartment with only a little ventilation with a few dozen gallons of gas seems like a BOOM risk?
So, to answer your question. The relay setup calls for a relay between the positive leads. Relay is ignition controlled. Open when ignition not on (if all accessories are on battery 2, it is isolated) and does not drain down main battery. Closed when ignition on to allow alternator charging. So a key is to have the accessories relocated to battery 2. I just don't see an obvious way to route them to battery 2 at first glance and wanted some advice from the TT experts.

cf_koch
03-11-2010, 08:15 PM
I found this article and thought it might help with this discussion. I am running a set up with a PerKo switch and an ACR such as what is described in this article in my Maristar and it has worked great.

http://www.trailerboats.com/output.cfm?id=2457217

MartinCaron
05-03-2010, 04:04 PM
I joined the forum specifically to thank Diesel for the tutorial.
I finished installing the system yesterday. It took me 30 minutes and 100$.
The 2010 season will be much better thanks to you.

OldGlory
09-28-2010, 06:03 PM
Thanks to all...I am going with Diesel's OP (w/Blue Sea's ARC), 2 DEKA 9A34M 12v 785CCA AGM Group 34M Marine Batteries, in my '82 S&S! I have been "dead on the water" once...not fun!

Audio System: Sony CD Receiver (w/iPod Interface), 4 X 6.5" Sony Marine X's, 10" MTX Sub, and 700 Watt Sony 4 channel Amp...

Change always welcome...(2 cents at a time)

JJ

BNIROOSTER
09-30-2010, 06:03 PM
I use a 1 in 6 out distribution block to manage all my add-ons. It works great and makes adding acc. a breeze.


The big reason Im Adding a Battery and the switch is peace of mind on the water. I dont have a BIG stereo - Im running basically two 6" speakers in the bow, and two in the aft and one sub, all from a single amp. I plan on adding two 6.5" speakers on the tower, and another amp. I also want to add a Light bar, possibly some underwater LED's.

I plan to use the switch to go to the second battery to play music, run lights ect. while floating around on the lake while the boat is off, saving the primary battery to ensure i have starting power when its time to go home. The perko was the best deal, and the easiest to wire up.

Have any of you guys used a bus bar set-up to manage the wiring when you have alot of "add-ons"?

willyt
05-10-2011, 10:40 AM
Hey guys,
I thought i would bump this thread before doing the install this week... drew a picture of what i'm planning on doing with the dual battery. Decided on the perko switch since i trust myself to switch it correctly at the correct times. If I did kill battery 2 (house battery for sitting/listing to music), I also wanted the option of just isolating that until I get back to the storage faciliaty to charge it, and not put the strain on the alternator.
Questions -
- Should the stereo and all accessories be hooked up to the common post (+) of the battery switch? I'm guessing this would allow all the accessories to be run off either battery (which, while running would be the battery that was being charged by the alternator as well).
- I really need to ground both batteries back to the engine block? what gauage wire should this be accomplished with?
- I read something about needing a fuse between the batteries... cant find it again though. this actually needed? what amperage?
- I THINK I'm missing a ground between battery one and battery 2 in the diagram... so i would have a - going from the - post from batt 1 to batt 2. That correct?

JimN
05-10-2011, 11:35 AM
Hey guys,
I thought i would bump this thread before doing the install this week... drew a picture of what i'm planning on doing with the dual battery. Decided on the perko switch since i trust myself to switch it correctly at the correct times. If I did kill battery 2 (house battery for sitting/listing to music), I also wanted the option of just isolating that until I get back to the storage faciliaty to charge it, and not put the strain on the alternator.
Questions -
- Should the stereo and all accessories be hooked up to the common post (+) of the battery switch? I'm guessing this would allow all the accessories to be run off either battery (which, while running would be the battery that was being charged by the alternator as well).
- I really need to ground both batteries back to the engine block? what gauage wire should this be accomplished with?
- I read something about needing a fuse between the batteries... cant find it again though. this actually needed? what amperage?
- I THINK I'm missing a ground between battery one and battery 2 in the diagram... so i would have a - going from the - post from batt 1 to batt 2. That correct?

When a schematic or circuit diagram shows a ground at a device, it assumes there's no resistance between those ground points. If there's significant resistance, you will have problems because the device that seeks a better ground will do that through whatever path provides the least resistance. In an audio system, if the head unit/EQ or other intermediate device is grounded to the dash harness and the amp is grounded to a point that provides a better/worse connection to the battery, it's called a 'ground loop' and will manifest itself through alternator whine, clicks/pops when switches are used and in the worst cases, anything ahead of the amp in the signal chain can fail prematurely.

The cable should be sized, based on the actual or anticipated demand + some safety margin.

Look in this forum for info:
http://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp~TID~73496~PN~1

Thrall
05-10-2011, 11:38 AM
You're fine to run a dedicated grond from each battery to the engine like you've shown.
Rule of thumb, size the ground the same as the + cable. 2ga will work in your case.

TallRedRider
05-10-2011, 12:01 PM
never mind....but can't figure out how to delete the entire post....misread negative and positive. :).

willyt
05-11-2011, 02:34 PM
JimN,
So your saying i should use one ground, but have a ground connection between the batteries?
Attached another diagram... this look right?

JimN
05-11-2011, 04:12 PM
JimN,
So your saying i should use one ground, but have a ground connection between the batteries?
Attached another diagram... this look right?


If you want to simplify the wiring, you could use a distribution block on both the positive and negative cables and use one larger cable to the block. Don't put them next to each other- if the carpet or whatever they're on gets wet, it will conduct and you can have problems from that.

willyt
05-11-2011, 06:21 PM
If you want to simplify the wiring, you could use a distribution block on both the positive and negative cables and use one larger cable to the block. Don't put them next to each other- if the carpet or whatever they're on gets wet, it will conduct and you can have problems from that.

If the alternator wire is wired to the common post on the switch, why would you use a distribution block for the positive wire?
Sorry for all the questions... just trying to understand how this should be wired. perhaps could you provide a diagram of how yours is set up?

JimN
05-11-2011, 09:46 PM
If the alternator wire is wired to the common post on the switch, why would you use a distribution block for the positive wire?
Sorry for all the questions... just trying to understand how this should be wired. perhaps could you provide a diagram of how yours is set up?

The charging lead needs to be sufficient to allow the charging current to pass through it without resistance and I thought your original diagram showed a battery switch. If you still plan to use a switch, you can either use a distribution block (if the batteries won't be really close to the switch) or use the switch to distribute the voltage/current. The ground doesn't have anything to do with the battery switch, so the easy way to deal with them is by using a distribution block, instead of running two long ground cables to the block.

Alternator-->charging lead-->battery switch input--> Battery 1 +
--> Battery 2 +

willyt
05-12-2011, 06:19 PM
Yea, i was going to use the perko switch to distribute the charge between the batteries. I understand what your saying with the distribution block for the ground... but was looking for someone's else diagram for their setup so i know i have this right.

Double D
05-12-2011, 08:22 PM
Here is my diagram pulled from my brothers boat and now used in mine.

SoCal205
05-24-2011, 11:40 PM
Ok I'm good with the relay, but do have one question. I'm going to put my second battery in the back with my first batttery. Will the relay be ok back there with the gas tank or do I need to put it somewhere else?

JJMorris3
05-25-2011, 12:49 AM
A relay is a switch. I would worry about an arc in the back enclosed compartment filled with gas fumes. Yikes. I put both batteries under spotter seat. Factory cables reached actually. I didn't even want a single battery in the same compartment as the fuel.

vandit0022
06-13-2011, 01:29 AM
I want to install a battery charger in my boat. Either a Guest or ProMariner. Is it as simple as mounting the thing on the partition and attaching the leads to the + and - on both batteries?

I have a Guest 1, 2, Both and Off switch, and a battery on either side of the boat. Theres just a ton of wires connected to them, and I have no idea how they are all linked up. Here are some photos. It appears the positives are both into some kind of small boxes on both sides of the boat. See pictures below. 1st and 2nd are star side battery, guest switch and the little box the positives are attached to, 3 and 4 are port side same. Any advice?

carlsonwa
06-13-2011, 11:37 AM
I am not sure if anyone else has tried something like this, but I thought it would work great vs. having to remember to flip a switch.....

I have installed this "Battery Doctor" picked it up at Fleet farm, it is an automatic battery isolater, that detects voltage based on the alternator running or not. So it isolates my deep cycle from my starting battery when the boat is off.

http://www.batterymart.com/p-acc-20090-battery-isolator.html

http://www.batterymart.com/images/products/acc/20090-big.jpg

http://www.batterymart.com/images/products/acc/20090c.jpg

http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww238/wayne_carlson/IMG_0193.jpg

vandit0022
06-13-2011, 01:25 PM
Reposted elsewhere.

agarabaghi
06-13-2011, 01:58 PM
I am not sure if anyone else has tried something like this, but I thought it would work great vs. having to remember to flip a switch.....

I have installed this "Battery Doctor" picked it up at Fleet farm, it is an automatic battery isolater, that detects voltage based on the alternator running or not. So it isolates my deep cycle from my starting battery when the boat is off.

http://www.batterymart.com/p-acc-20090-battery-isolator.html

http://www.batterymart.com/images/products/acc/20090-big.jpg

http://www.batterymart.com/images/products/acc/20090c.jpg

http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww238/wayne_carlson/IMG_0193.jpg

Does this not require running the isolator to the ignition ??

carlsonwa
06-13-2011, 02:04 PM
No ignition input required. It monitors voltage on the main/ or starter battery.

Which rests at about 11.5-12.5 volts when the engine is off and will jump to 13-15 volts when the alternator/ engine are running. Then it connects the 2 batteries in parallel allowing the deep cycle to be charged.

agarabaghi
06-13-2011, 02:07 PM
wow. Im getting this.

anyone want a stringer 200amp isolator? I will not be install that as i dont want to take my dash apart.

SWeaver
06-14-2011, 03:02 PM
So, it seems all the previous methods require the same battery types. Would this BattDR need to be the same battery type also? I'd really like to have a deep cycle and a starting battery.

carlsonwa
06-15-2011, 09:31 AM
Doesn't say that you cannot have 2 different types. I have a marine starting for main battey and marine deep cycle for aux/ stereo.

scharette
07-13-2011, 05:06 PM
wow. Im getting this.

anyone want a stringer 200amp isolator? I will not be install that as i dont want to take my dash apart.

yesterday i took my dash apart to locate and connect the purple wire. its an easy task. 2 screws and 3 plastic pins to remove..

scharette
07-17-2011, 09:34 AM
i instaled a ss598 Solenoid. The auto part person told me it was the same thing as a Borg Warner R3098.
After 30 minutes of riding, the isolator caught on fire and the ignition breaker went off... We had a lot of smoke coming off the observer seat. Luckily, it dind't do any damage to my elecgtrical system.
can someone confirm the spec of the ss598 solenoid ?

agarabaghi
07-17-2011, 11:09 AM
yikes. that sounds like a faulty product or install.

Lumbergh
09-10-2011, 10:58 AM
http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr66/Lumbergh556/1266925656257.gif

Scottman
09-14-2011, 03:21 AM
After a lot of research I couldn't be happier with my Blue Sea "Add A Battery" System.

Thanks to reading this thread for the suggestion...haven't had a single battery related problem since I installed it this spring.

I have one cranking battery and one deep cycle. I just turn the switch to ON when I start and OFF when I put her away at night. Then there's COMBINE if I ever needed it.

Easy installation too...any questions about it just let me know.

Scottman
01-09-2012, 10:10 PM
Also wanted to say that I got a great deal on my cables at http://genuinedealz.com/

I ordered everything and had them make the cables for me. They all arrived exactly as I ordered, and I just had to hook them up. Great prices, and they made them just how I wanted them. Really couldn't be happier. I first heard of them through a post on this site, so thanks to whoever posted the link (I think it was sodar) :friday:

Lumbergh
01-21-2012, 09:33 PM
What gauge are the factory battery cables on a Prostar?

waterlogged882
01-21-2012, 10:06 PM
What gauge are the factory battery cables on a Prostar?

Four for most. Stands true for the 93 for certain.

Philscbx
05-28-2012, 09:53 AM
Wow, I read up to Pg 5, and at that point I was looking at the BW R3098 relay making up dual battery set-up.

The specs don't indicate it's a latching relay. I suspect it's general purpose starting relay.
Wouldn't latching be preferred? Vs a constant draw/drain on the Batteries.

Current research - Amazon $63 - advanceautoparts (http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_x_18970096-P_x_x&nAID=11138?cm_mmc=aff-_-cj-_-5605648-_-10711125#) - $43

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/wcsstore/CVWEB/staticproductimage//587/large/18970096_bwd_r3098_pri_larg.jpg

Other - SD SERIES 7800 (http://www.nauticexpo.com/prod/blue-sea/boats-battery-automatic-switches-21765-239647.html)

bturner2
05-29-2012, 08:56 AM
Don't know the answer to your question but I can tell you I'm on my fourth season with the Blue Seas "add a battery set up" with no issues. Easy install, all parts tested/included, no questions needed or answers required. Best of all it works.

Sodar
05-29-2012, 10:21 AM
Don't know the answer to your question but I can tell you I'm on my fourth season with the Blue Seas "add a battery set up" with no issues. Easy install, all parts tested/included, no questions needed or answers required. Best of all it works.

X2.... Works great!

51timber
02-05-2013, 10:32 PM
Quick question on fuse sizes??? What size circuit breakers are most running from the islator to the battery for both the starter side and the house battery side??? Also if I go from a 70 amp alternator is it really necessary to change all of the associated wiring??? I have seen through this thread so many different opinions my head is spinning. What is the consensus?

GoneBoatN
02-06-2013, 12:46 PM
Quick question on fuse sizes??? What size circuit breakers are most running from the islator to the battery for both the starter side and the house battery side??? Also if I go from a 70 amp alternator is it really necessary to change all of the associated wiring??? I have seen through this thread so many different opinions my head is spinning. What is the consensus?

The Blue Seas Add-A-Battery installation guide has some guideance on wire sizes and fuse sizes. There is also a URL to a calculator in those instructions that should help with wiring sizes:

https://bluesea.com/files/resources/instructions/990310020.pdf

musicmd
05-15-2013, 12:33 PM
I am thinking of upgrading my '04 X-10 to a dual battery setup and have a few follow-up questions. I just replaced the battery last week, after finding that the lead-acid battery from 2008 wouldn't hold a charge under a load. (I'm glad I figured that out before heading out on the water.) I upped the ante a bit, buying a dual-purpose marine battery which should do a good job.

Now, I'm considering adding a second battery so that we can listen to music out on the lake without worries about battery drain. We typically do a lot of waterskiing and wakeboarding, so the amount of time the boat would sit idle is pretty slim (i.e., an hour or two at most). Even given this, I think it would be worth the piece of mind to know that the stereo/other accessories weren't robbing us of sufficient juice to start the engine again.

I see the Borg Warner R3098 is still available on Amazon and at local auto parts stores. Is this still the best relay or is there a better alternative?

bturner2
05-15-2013, 12:37 PM
It certainly isn't a bad choice but an easier installation would probably be a "add a battery" kit from Blue Seas. There's YouTube videos and all kinds of step by step instructions on how to do the installation in multiple locations.......

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product2_11151_10001_17208_

tilzinger
05-24-2013, 11:06 AM
I'm about to order the parts to add a second battery to my Larsen (no, I'm not lucky enough to own a MasterCraft, this happens to be the best resource I've found on how to do it) but there is one thing that I have not seen clearly defined, which is with the single battery, I currently have 4 different cables plugging into each terminal... where do those 4 go when I add the second battery? Do I need to put the accessory only cables onto the 2nd deep cycle battery? Or do all 4 still plug into the main battery? Or do they go into the 2nd battery? The diagram on the first page is clear enough on how to wire the 2 batteries together, but it doesn't indicate what I do with the wires currently on the main battery.

Can anyone clarify this for me please? Thanks!

Kweisner
05-24-2013, 11:56 AM
I'm about to order the parts to add a second battery to my Larsen (no, I'm not lucky enough to own a MasterCraft, this happens to be the best resource I've found on how to do it) but there is one thing that I have not seen clearly defined, which is with the single battery, I currently have 4 different cables plugging into each terminal... where do those 4 go when I add the second battery? Do I need to put the accessory only cables onto the 2nd deep cycle battery? Or do all 4 still plug into the main battery? Or do they go into the 2nd battery? The diagram on the first page is clear enough on how to wire the 2 batteries together, but it doesn't indicate what I do with the wires currently on the main battery.

Can anyone clarify this for me please? Thanks!

That depends on what the four wires do, and what your intention is for the second battery. Let me start with the assumption that you're wanting to end up with a Starting Battery and a House/Accessories Battery, and that you want to be able to isolate the Starting Battery so that you can run accessories while the motor is off and still be able to start your boat.

If that's your goal then read on.

Assuming the accessories you want to run include your stereo and any amplifiers, your goal is to have these powered from the House Battery. If you have other accessories that you want to run while the boat is off, then you would relo these circuits to the second/house battery. What you will need to determine is what each of those four wires "do" in terms of providing power.

Let's start with the POS side of things:
One will go from the existing/starting battery to the starter and that remains.
One may also go to a circuit breaker/cutoff switch, which then leads to the main power block for ALL your other power needs (stereo, lights, etc.) via the fuse/breaker block. This would likely also remain "as is" but then you'll "remove" some accessories from being wired to the block and re-wire them to the house batt (see below).

As for the other two wires. . . you'll have to trace them unless you already know where they go/what they do. My guess is they are already providing power to some extras/accessories. . . or one set could be if you have onboard battery charger/maintainer.

Your ultimate goal is to wire to the house battery all the accessories (stereo, amps, lighting) that you want to use with the motor off so you're not draining the start batt.

At the breaker/fuse block, you'll need to determine what terminals are feeding your stereo/amps (if any) and pull these from the block so that you can wire them to the HOUSE battery. You WILL want to have these connections fused/protected.

I hope this helps a bit. I'll be around this weekend (well, on the boat) but if you want to talk via phone, PM me your number and perhaps I can help you.

tilzinger
05-26-2013, 05:06 PM
Thanks for the info, its kind of what I assumed, and yes you're correct that I'm mainly looking to use the house battery for the stereo and amp. I'm guessing the breaker/fuse block is the 90amp fuse off the starter that I actually blew last week and had to replace already :D

It might be fairly easy to locate which wires do what, b/c when I blew the 90amp fuse I could still turn on the bilge, blower, and raise/lower the prop, but turning the key left/right didn't do a thing, and obviously the stereo didn't work either. So there appears to be a separation in the wiring already, I just need to figure out what goes to what.


One may also go to a circuit breaker/cutoff switch, which then leads to the main power block for ALL your other power needs (stereo, lights, etc.) via the fuse/breaker block. This would likely also remain "as is" but then you'll "remove" some accessories from being wired to the block and re-wire them to the house batt (see below).


This has me worried because when the fuse was blown I couldn't start the boat or use the stereo, so one wire on the breaker is serving both purposes it seems.

Kweisner
05-26-2013, 06:13 PM
Thanks for the info, its kind of what I assumed, and yes you're correct that I'm mainly looking to use the house battery for the stereo and amp. I'm guessing the breaker/fuse block is the 90amp fuse off the starter that I actually blew last week and had to replace already :D

It might be fairly easy to locate which wires do what, b/c when I blew the 90amp fuse I could still turn on the bilge, blower, and raise/lower the prop, but turning the key left/right didn't do a thing, and obviously the stereo didn't work either. So there appears to be a separation in the wiring already, I just need to figure out what goes to what.

This has me worried because when the fuse was blown I couldn't start the boat or use the stereo, so one wire on the breaker is serving both purposes it seems.

What you might want to do is pull that 90A breaker you mention and reconfirm that the starter and stereo won't work, and that the bilge,blower, and prop operation functions. Then, try carefully pulling the unknown cables from the pos side of each batt one at a time. When the bilge/blower/outdrive stop working you will know which cable is providing power. My guess is this will be wired to the house battery and that the PO or manufacturer set it up this way so these items could be run motor off and not drain the start battery.

I would then follow this cable to see if it goes to a fuse/breaker subpanel or distribution block. That will tell you if it's set up right--each item downstream should be fused or have a circuit breaker. If just a distribution block, then that's not ideal.

As for what has you worried, I agree that the stereo MAY be wired to the primary/original--but not necessarily! The stereo head unit typically has two power wires--one that's the actual "heavy draw" power for the unit, internal amp circuits, etc, and the other is a "light draw" trigger signal. So you could have the stereo properly wired to the house batt for "in use" power, but the trigger circuit may still be tied to the boats original primary circuit. In my system, i left my head unit's trigger wire tied to the original accessory loop so my stereo can't be left on unless the boat is running or the key is in the ACC position (which ismpowered by the start batt), but the heavy power draw is wired to the house batt. In this case, if my main circuit breaker trips (start batt) my stereo will NOT work, even though it's powered by the house batt--the trigger signal just won't be present to turn the head unit on.

sp00ky
06-03-2013, 08:27 PM
This maybe a good thread to clear up a potential issue. I have a blue sea battery switch installed by previous owner. However, there is only one battery. I was looking into adding a 2nd when I noticed 2 gauge positive cable from battery to blue sea but a 4 gauge from blue sea to alternator.

Is this a problem? Should I replace the 4 gauge ?

JimN
06-03-2013, 08:30 PM
This maybe a good thread to clear up a potential issue. I have a blue sea battery switch installed by previous owner. However, there is only one battery. I was looking into adding a 2nd when I noticed 2 gauge positive cable from battery to blue sea but a 4 gauge from blue sea to alternator.

Is this a problem? Should I replace the 4 gauge ?

The 4ga is the charging lead and should be fine for most needs, unless the user just has to go nuts and put everything available in the boat.

sp00ky
06-03-2013, 09:00 PM
The 4ga is the charging lead and should be fine for most needs, unless the user just has to go nuts and put everything available in the boat.

So it's not a problem for 2guage to be reduced to 4 from battery to alternator? This scenario would be a problem powering audio equipment.

Thanks for the input?

JimN
06-03-2013, 10:06 PM
So it's not a problem for 2guage to be reduced to 4 from battery to alternator? This scenario would be a problem powering audio equipment.

Thanks for the input?

The batteries supply current to the load and that requires them to connect through heavy cables. The charging lead doesn't work as hard- think of batteries as a water tank, current as water flow, wire gauge as pipe diameter, voltage as water pressure and the alternator as a pump that keeps the tank topped off. The demand for water isn't constant over a long time because music is transient, by nature. This means that when the amps don't demand current, the alternator still tries to top off the tank. However, if larger pipe to the batteries isn't used, the pressure in the one used for topping off the tank can't keep up, even if the demand is lower.

SILENTxNOISE
06-13-2013, 07:23 PM
Anyone have a good picture of their Blue Sea switch installed??


Instructions helps, but I do much better with pictures for my installs :)

SILENTxNOISE
06-18-2013, 01:15 AM
Bump for the pictures :)

Farmer Ted
06-18-2013, 08:09 AM
Anyone have a good picture of their Blue Sea switch installed??


Instructions helps, but I do much better with pictures for my installs :)


Would like to hear thoughts on this set up...

http://s200.photobucket.com/user/operationROL/media/Boating/img023.jpg.html

JimN
06-18-2013, 10:46 AM
Would like to hear thoughts on this set up...

http://s200.photobucket.com/user/operationROL/media/Boating/img023.jpg.html

Why are red and black being used? Is the bar at the bottom a ground buss? What is the post to the left (lower) of the switch used for? The black box at the top- assuming it's the isolator, you can probably omit the fuses after it if the cable length is less than 12"- the chance of cutting it is slight and the fuses would be better used after the isolator unless there's a danger of the isolator not being able to handle the current passing through it.

Where does the red cable come from (top right)? Looks small.

Farmer Ted
06-18-2013, 08:18 PM
Why are red and black being used? Is the bar at the bottom a ground buss? What is the post to the left (lower) of the switch used for? The black box at the top- assuming it's the isolator, you can probably omit the fuses after it if the cable length is less than 12"- the chance of cutting it is slight and the fuses would be better used after the isolator unless there's a danger of the isolator not being able to handle the current passing through it.

Where does the red cable come from (top right)? Looks small.


Beats me, just a picture I found on the internet. Was curious if this was a good set up, apparently it's not.

Scottman
06-19-2013, 02:10 AM
Bump for the pictures :)

I will take some tomorrow of my setup and post them up soon when I get a chance (along with pictures of other things I owe some people on here). Mine has been working flawlessly for a few years now and I really couldn't be happier with it. I can help you with it...I did mine from the directions but it would have been a lot easier with somebody describing it.


Would like to hear thoughts on this set up...

http://s200.photobucket.com/user/operationROL/media/Boating/img023.jpg.html

This looks nothing like mine whatsoever. Seems like they used the switch and relay for some other type of project.

Quinten
06-19-2013, 05:39 AM
I have a question:
We have a 2012 x2, We left the battery switch on in single battery and last night I went to the boat and dead battery, turned into duel and still dead. Can this be possible?
And when do you juse single and when duel? We always juse single battery.

SILENTxNOISE
06-19-2013, 10:41 PM
I will take some tomorrow of my setup and post them up soon when I get a chance (along with pictures of other things I owe some people on here). Mine has been working flawlessly for a few years now and I really couldn't be happier with it. I can help you with it...I did mine from the directions but it would have been a lot easier with somebody describing it.




This looks nothing like mine whatsoever. Seems like they used the switch and relay for some other type of project.

Thanks! I would love to see how people have theirs laid out and I could mimic it lot easier. I have the Bluesea switch ordered.. Just trying to decide on the battery to go with.

mtajpa
06-19-2013, 11:11 PM
Here is a diagram and installation instruction from BLUE SEAS. And a picture of mine installation. My location is under the starboard rear seat with additional Battery in rear locker. I am using the start isolation option also. Only have 1 6channel amp and stereo for load.

MLA
06-19-2013, 11:32 PM
I have a question:
We have a 2012 x2, We left the battery switch on in single battery and last night I went to the boat and dead battery, turned into duel and still dead. Can this be possible?
And when do you juse single and when duel? We always juse single battery.

It could be possible to have 2 loads left running, one on each bank. If your boat has the Dual Circuit Plus switch and a VSR, then the odds are slim that a load on the main bank would also draw down the house bank with the switch left in the on position.

I would 1st determine what rand down the battery(s), then test and recharge the batteries if they test good.

Quinten
06-20-2013, 09:30 AM
It could be possible to have 2 loads left running, one on each bank. If your boat has the Dual Circuit Plus switch and a VSR, then the odds are slim that a load on the main bank would also draw down the house bank with the switch left in the on position.

I would 1st determine what rand down the battery(s), then test and recharge the batteries if they test good.

So it's not that 1 battery is just for starting and the other for accesoiry (house battery)?

LTRGUY261
06-24-2013, 06:45 PM
Sorry to bring life back to this thread, but it seems to be the best I have seen so far. I am a rookie when it comes to this stuff so please excuse me for that. I am going to add a second battery to my boat and am thinking about this kit

http://www.amazon.com/BLUESEA-7650-SOLENOID-BATTERY-CIRCUIT/dp/B000RZNP5K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372108524&sr=8-1&keywords=blue+sea+add+a+battery

Based on my readings, here are my assumptions about this. It essentially works just like the one Diesel mentioned in the original post but also has the on/off switch?

Now my real questions, what else do I need? I have read about fuses and circuit breakers on here. Do I need in-line fuses somewhere? If so where? Could I use this?
http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-Blade-Block/dp/B001P6FTHC/ref=pd_sim_pc_5

How do I know what size fuses to put in for each accessory?

Do I need an additional wire back to the block as a ground for the second battery? What would determine if I need larger wires to the starter from the cranking battery?

Sorry for all the questions folks, but this is the best source of info I have seen on this yet. I will promise to repay your kindness in answering these questions with pictures once I get started and finished with this.

Cloaked
06-24-2013, 08:19 PM
Sorry to bring life back to this thread, but it seems to be the best I have seen so far. I am a rookie when it comes to this stuff so please excuse me for that. I am going to add a second battery to my boat and am thinking about this kit

http://www.amazon.com/BLUESEA-7650-SOLENOID-BATTERY-CIRCUIT/dp/B000RZNP5K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372108524&sr=8-1&keywords=blue+sea+add+a+battery

Based on my readings, here are my assumptions about this. It essentially works just like the one Diesel mentioned in the original post but also has the on/off switch?

Now my real questions, what else do I need? I have read about fuses and circuit breakers on here. Do I need in-line fuses somewhere? If so where? Could I use this?
http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-Blade-Block/dp/B001P6FTHC/ref=pd_sim_pc_5

How do I know what size fuses to put in for each accessory?

Do I need an additional wire back to the block as a ground for the second battery? What would determine if I need larger wires to the starter from the cranking battery?

Sorry for all the questions folks, but this is the best source of info I have seen on this yet. I will promise to repay your kindness in answering these questions with pictures once I get started and finished with this.Your assumption is correct.

I recently installed the Blue Seas system with the switch, etc..... Next time I'll stick to the basics like the original poster has recommended. The Blue Seas switch is not needed in my opinion. Nothing but hype. Save yourself some money. The ignition switch will do all "off-and-on" processes that you will need for battery isolation / joint charging using the original poster's recommended configuration. .

You'll need fuses. I used the terminal fuse blocks at the battery posts and a few in-lines on smaller wires. ( http://shop.genuinedealz.com/Marine%20Electrical%20Supply/Fuses%20and%20Blocks/Battery%20Terminal%20Fuse/ ) I chose not to use circuit breakers but they are not out of the question. I just didn't have room to mount the breaker box and the terminal fuses were easy to mount and readily visible.

Distance will determine if you need larger size cables...if you're sticking with the same distance, (OEM install) no need to increase the cable size, however I increased my size because I was there and wanted to make sure I was not on the edge of being undersized, and I also relocated my battery with a longer run of cable to the new location. Four GA cable was my OEM install, I replaced with 2 GA cable.

I used one ground bar from the engine block to the ground bar, then grounded the 2nd battery (and the first battery) to the ground bar. I also grounded other components on the bar, eliminating possible ground loops.

I found that these guys are the best bang for the buck and quality ==> http://shop.genuinedealz.com/

They ship via USPS "If it fits, it ships" boxes for a flat rate and not by weight of copper cable. Also go with tinned cables. Don't be a cheapscape for a few more pennies on the tinned cables.

I got all of my cable from them, crimped and heat shrink for $1.00 per connection. A poor (homemade) crimp from inadequate tools will ruin a connection. They do good work and ship promptly...

$0.02

.

LTRGUY261
06-25-2013, 10:42 AM
Thanks a ton Cloaked! What size fuses at the battery? How do I know what size fuses to put in line and on what components do I need them?

Cloaked
06-25-2013, 10:05 PM
Thanks a ton Cloaked! What size fuses at the battery? How do I know what size fuses to put in line and on what components do I need them?I use 80 amp on the batteries and a standard (any automotive store) 10 amp (recommended by the manufacturer's instructions) on the smaller components (the switch on/off purple wire and the head unit). I ran a hot lead from the 2nd battery for the head unit and grounded it to the ground bar in lieu of an accessory ground wire in the boat. I think I used a second terminal block fuse (30 amp IIRC) for the amplifier hot lead (10GA cable) coming off the accessory battery.

So on my start battery I have a terminal block fuse and on the accessory battery I have two terminal block fuses. I used two separate fuses in lieu of the double-stacked fuse block at the accessory battery. Just a preference and I could maneuver the installation easier for the limited room.

You can see one of the in line fuses just below the amplifier in the picture, about middle way on the purple wire. I like that style for ease of viewing the fuse link without a lot of digging and removal of the fuse for checking.

Eliminating the Blue Seas on/off switch will also save you several dollars by not needing the extra cable. Again, the original poster's recommendation will be my next install.

You can also see the 4-lug ground bar just behind the amplifier.

The grey horizontal wires near the top are speaker wires going back out into the cabin. The white vertical wires are going to the head unit pre-amp outs located on the opposite side of the kick panel that everything is mounted.

The purple wires are connected to the ignition switch for the battery relay switch and the amplifier (obviously for on/off operations for each component).

Just below and to the left of the in-line fuse is a red cable and a black cable, each coming from the engine compartment, through the bulkhead wall in the floor, following the route of the steering cable, then I drilled two 3/4" holes in the kick panel to route those two main hot & ground cables into the area in the picture, which is on the port side behind the passenger's seat.

I ordered the one battery box for the accessory battery (around $12 bucks from Amazon) and ditched the cinch straps for the box cover. I replaced those straps with an old life jacket strap that has a clip buckle. Much easier to use when accessing the battery box.

I have seen cleaner installs but I like simple and easily accessible and viewable. Sodar did a nice install among others here...
.

SILENTxNOISE
06-26-2013, 12:20 AM
I have a couple questions:

Could someone please explain in detail everything needed for the install of the Blue Sea dual battery switch (sorry if stated in pervious posts -- I haven't read the whole thread)? How many cables will be needed (both positive and negative), how many fuses, and is there any type of "battery install" kit (w/ cable cutters/strippers, terminal ends, etc) that anyone would recommend?

Second, do both the batters have to be the same manufacture if using the Blue Sea switch?

cwoods915
06-26-2013, 11:30 AM
I know there is already the "Official Dual Battery Thread" out there, but it appears that was mainly focused on the dual battery setup rather than the battery type.

Anyways, I want to get opinions on best batteries for the following setup:
2001 Maristar with a Perko switch dual battery setup
Boat features include a 3-channel Kicker amp (http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_6592_Kicker-ZX550.3.html) powering 2 polk tower speakers and a 12 inch sub. Boat also has been recently equipped with automatic ballast including 3 Jabsco pumps.

For this setup, what brand/type of batteries would you all recommend (without breaking the bank)? Of course, I've heard the Optima recommendations but wanted to see what else is out there. I've also been suggested running 2 deep cycle/dual purpose batteries but was unsure if this should be done? To wrap it up, the main purpose will be to power the stereo with the engine is off so I'd like batteries that will be able to run down and charge back quickly. Let's hear what you got...

nickespi
06-26-2013, 12:21 PM
I'm running two no name deep cycle 27's for my house bank and one Walmart marine non-deep cycle for my starting bank. Less than $300 in all three batteries. Has been sufficient for the last three seasons. The house bank has all accessories, deck, two towers, six cabins, two 12" kickers and two amps that it powers.

LTRGUY261
06-26-2013, 12:25 PM
I use 80 amp on the batteries and a standard (any automotive store) 10 amp (recommended by the manufacturer's instructions) on the smaller components (the switch on/off purple wire and the head unit). I ran a hot lead from the 2nd battery for the head unit and grounded it to the ground bar in lieu of an accessory ground wire in the boat. I think I used a second terminal block fuse (30 amp IIRC) for the amplifier hot lead (10GA cable) coming off the accessory battery.

So on my start battery I have a terminal block fuse and on the accessory battery I have two terminal block fuses. I used two separate fuses in lieu of the double-stacked fuse block at the accessory battery. Just a preference and I could maneuver the installation easier for the limited room.

You can see one of the in line fuses just below the amplifier in the picture, about middle way on the purple wire. I like that style for ease of viewing the fuse link without a lot of digging and removal of the fuse for checking.

Eliminating the Blue Seas on/off switch will also save you several dollars by not needing the extra cable. Again, the original poster's recommendation will be my next install.

You can also see the 4-lug ground bar just behind the amplifier.

The grey horizontal wires near the top are speaker wires going back out into the cabin. The white vertical wires are going to the head unit pre-amp outs located on the opposite side of the kick panel that everything is mounted.

The purple wires are connected to the ignition switch for the battery relay switch and the amplifier (obviously for on/off operations for each component).

Just below and to the left of the in-line fuse is a red cable and a black cable, each coming from the engine compartment, through the bulkhead wall in the floor, following the route of the steering cable, then I drilled two 3/4" holes in the kick panel to route those two main hot & ground cables into the area in the picture, which is on the port side behind the passenger's seat.

I ordered the one battery box for the accessory battery (around $12 bucks from Amazon) and ditched the cinch straps for the box cover. I replaced those straps with an old life jacket strap that has a clip buckle. Much easier to use when accessing the battery box.

I have seen cleaner installs but I like simple and easily accessible and viewable. Sodar did a nice install among others here...
.

Thanks again for all of the time spent helping me out. I think I have everything I need on the way for this. Last question can I run a cranking battery as my start and a deep cycle for the house battery?

bturner2
06-26-2013, 12:41 PM
Here we go again.......


:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn: